Why does Wing Chun get its ass kicked so much in MMA events?

[UltimateFighter]

From what I have seen of wing chun in MMA events, it always gets its ass kicked. Although WT has never been in MMA, I once saw a 'wing chun gung fu' guy get his ass whooped in UFC 5. What do people feel the reasons are for Wing chun failing in MMA? And please, keep the 'they can't eye gouge' arguments to a minimum.

[Wei Sui]

Let me guess...

because it's missing all the stuff from WT?:o

[UltimateFighter]

Actually boy, I never said Wt would do any better, just that it has never been in MMA. My post is about 'general' wingchun, all branches. Clear? Good.

[red5angel]

I believe good wing chun could hold its own in an MMA event if one were to train it properly. You wont get excuses from me like "WC cant use its deadly techniques" or whatever is popular with kungfu types these days. This stuff works you just have to be training properly for that sort of environment. Too many KF, or in this case WC guys half azzing it in their training. those MMA guys really bust their butts to get into these things and so should the WC guys.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by red5angel
I believe good wing chun could hold its own in an MMA event if one were to train it properly. You wont get excuses from me like "WC cant use its deadly techniques" or whatever is popular with kungfu types these days. This stuff works you just have to be training properly for that sort of environment. Too many KF, or in this case WC guys half azzing it in their training. those MMA guys really bust their butts to get into these things and so should the WC guys.
MMA competition requires youth and large physical size.

Youngsters don't seem to last in Wing Chun training because it requires hard work and patience. The immediate gratification isn't there.

Not many really big, good wing chun practitioners. On the street, in self defense, I'll take Wing Chun over any other art.

Regards,

[Mr. Bao]

Because they aren't good in MMA matches. You can take a few people and label the rest the same, but my friend that isn't always the case.

In the end of the day, I make no defense for WC, in fighting there are winners and losers. No arguments here. Perhaps there is a WC fighter who can win in MMA or NHB matches?


Bao

[fa_jing]

Because Wing Chun is Kung Fu and Kung Fu sucks. High school wrestling beats Kung Fu. A one year boxer, nearsighted and without his glasses would easily defeat any 20-year so called "kung fu master." "Gracies in Action" clearly demonstrates that all Traditional Martial Arts suck. BJJ is superior.
All Kung Fu guys do is sit around training forms all day and talking about their lineages. There is no sparring in Kung Fu. It's for aging ex-hippies with mullets.

[couch]

I think this brings out another good point. How many people do you see in your school half-azzing it?? Not trying real hard...not working on their basic stance, their chain punching, etc.

People need to put time and effort into what they want to be good at. I wanted to be the best skateboarder around...I didn't have the natural ability like a lot of people, but I practised hard, and did ok.

BTW...now I have bad knees!! Laf.

Couch

[anerlich]

AFAIK WC hasn't got its a$$ kicked much in MMA events at all. There have been very few entries by "WC" fighters. Only two in the UFC from memory, neither of whom trained for any real length of time in the system by all accounts.

Both were also pretty much disowned by the WC community after their losses, though no doubt if they had won the WC/T marketing machines would have gone into overdrive about how awesome WC was and how we won the UFC, blah blah de blah, and the bandwagon jumping would be the stuff of legend.

But it never happened. The a$$-kicking rate on the very small sample is pretty much 100%.

If, like the WT marketing machine says, WC/T is not for competition but only lethal combat, then it's unlikely to ever get tested in the sporting arena. I choose WT because UltimateFighter (a funny name for a WT person whose lineage does not sportfight, the competition pics in Dynamic WT notwithstanding) claims that it is the best.

That way grandiose claims can be made without being tested - not saying that has happened a lot, only that it can. Reputations can be built without proof of skill being required. Ditto re frequency. Pro fighters generally do not have the cult of personality around them that some high ranking CMA's cultivate, the occasional loss in the ring, while no disgrace, tends to keep their and their supporters' heads out of the clouds.

A number of WC people (Anthony Arnett and Rick Spain from my lineage to name just two) have done very well in full contact competition. So it's not like you can't adapt WC for competition. But perhaps WC/T is poorly suited to MMA rules.

We nearly had a match between Emin and Royce a while ago. Might have been interesting, but it never happened. Both can continue to talk tough.

[Jaeson]

A pure Wing Chun guy can't win in a MMA tournament,just like a pure Muay Thai Boxer can't,Western Boxers can't,Pure Westlers can't win anymore,not even a pure BJJ guy could win in MMA tournaments.
When was the last time Royce Gracie won a MMA event.
Why is Royce taking Muay Thai classes, if BJJ is so superior!!!
If Wing Chun is bad, so is Thai boxing,Western boxing,and pure grappling.

[Neurotic]

Hey folks,

I'm surprised you have said this about Wing Chun, looking at my own lineage, (Wiliam Cheung) you can see prime examples of tournament fighters, primarily Sifu Anthony Arnett.
http://www.templewingchun.com/new/twcbios.html

If I also remember correctly, Sifu Joe Sayah had a long and successful shoot fighting career as well (although I have no reference for that, I'm pulling it out of my head... I'm pretty sure I am right)

I'm sure that if you dig around in your own lineage for fighters that have fought either tournament, or professionally, you won't have to dig very hard.

Methinks you forget the 'humble' part of being a martial artist. Most of these people don't feel the need to proclaim it to the world, hence most of the time, you don't hear about them.

Never the less - do a martial art because you believe in it. Not because you've seen heaps of other people doing it. :cool:

Neurotic

[Clint]

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT! ALL KUNG FU SUCKS? WHAT IS THE STYLE OF YOUR CHOICE? AND WHAT IS THIS TALK OF SPARRING? WING CHUN PRACTITIONERS CONSTANTLY DRILL THEY'RE TECHNIQUES WITH A FELLOW PRACTITIONER. THAT IS WHAT I SPENT MOST OF MY TIME IN CLASS DOING. YOU LEARN SIMULTANEOUS DEFENSE AND ATTACK TECHNIQUES, AND THEN DRILL THEM OVER AND OVER WITH DIFFERENT PEOPLE. WE SPENT NO TIME DISCUSSING LINEAGE, MEDITATING, STRETCHING ECT... WE SIMPLY LEARNED AND PRACTICED CONSTANTLY FOR ABOUT A 2 AND HALF HR CLASS PERIOD! ITS STRAIGHT UP, DIRECT TO THE POINT PRACTICAL SELF DEFENSE AND ITS MEANT TO GET THE JOB DOWN AND GET OUT AS FAST AS POSSIBLE. I TOOK THREE OTHER STYLES PRIOR TO IT AND REALIZED THEY WERE USLESS AFTER STUDYING WING CHUN! WING CHUN TEACHES HOW TO DEFEND AGAINST ANY STYLE, INCLUDING BOXING, WRESTLING OR ANY GRAPPLING FOR THAT MATTER! I THINK YOU HAVE BEEN WATCHING TO MUCH MIGHTY MORPHIN POWER RANGERS! :eek:

[anerlich]

Clint,

I think fa jing was joking.

AND TURN YOUR CAPS LOCK OFF.

[Martial Joe]

Why does wing chun get its azz kicked you ask?


Those so called wing chun guys in ufc that most know of werent wing chun guys.

I know of one guy from what lineage i forgot fought rickson gracie and got pounded.Guess what gracie did? took him to the ground.
Remember the boxer who faught royce in early ufc? how did he do?
He had no ground experience and he got his ass handed to him. But you dont see people poking fun at boxing.
Wing Chun is a stand up art. It wont win on the ground alone when your fighting a good grappler with experience.

People need to learn this.

Infact, i think the only reason kung fu got a bad name is ignorance.I know it works.I know its great stuff.

[Merryprankster]

They guy you are thinking of was pretty much just a big stooge with something like one year of WC training. He was a representative of WC like I'M a representative of ballet.


MMA competition requires youth and large physical size.

I'll remember this the next time I watch my 135 lbs friend compete, or my 145 lbs 35 year old friend compete. Or my 49 year old training partner who is about 150 and tough as nails (looks like nothing, but watch out!) take out men twice his size in sparring (I will admit he does not compete in MMA, but the SOB SHOULD!)


Youngsters don't seem to last in Wing Chun training because it requires hard work and patience. The immediate gratification isn't there.

This might be true, but the inference is that somehow MMA is more immediately gratifying and easier. MMA takes TONS of hard work and patience. It's physically and mentally gruelling. Day in and day out you have your ass handed to you by people who are better than you (for those of you that seem to think 'ego' is the driving factor, the people who get better are the ones that swallow their pride), and you drill and drill and drill and drill until you should be bored stiff. MMA guys probably just aren't attracted to WC much, in the same way that WC isn't attracted to MMA much (vast generalization on both accounts).

Good training is good training regardless of style and it all has its share of blood, injury and sacrifice.

[Martial Joe]

Merry...I wonder how many of those top mma fighters have a year training.:D


Kung Fu people like that man need to understand you need to put in alot of effort and crosstrain.

[Le nOObi]

Wasnt that guy steve faulkner a legitimate WC practioner? Please correct me if im wrong because i dont know alot about wing chun.

[UltimateFighter]

Wing Chun deserves no excuses in MMA. If it looses, it is becasue a/. The way wing chun fighters train is not good enough.
or b/. Becasue the system doesn't work very well in a fight.

Lets all hope that the answer is a. I believe that it is a bit of both, but mainly a/. (a lack of competetive sparring). having said that, Wing Chun has flaws as do many styles. And these are exposed in the ring/cage.

BTW, for the guy who asked why I am called ultimate fighter, it is becausue my main style is Judo, which I have trained for a number of years. I believe in crosstraining. Wing Chun/Tsun was really only designed for standup.

[fa_jing]

Yeah, I was kidding. ;) My teacher was successful in MMA/NHB competitions, although I don't believe he competed on the national level. He is not a traditionalist, but Wing Chun does form the basis for his fighting style. If you want to do comps you should be able to handle yourself with the grappling and conditioning.

[Shäolin]

Originally posted by UltimateFighter
....Becasue the system doesn't work very well in a fight...Lets all hope that the answer is a. I believe that it is a bit of both, but mainly a/. (a lack of competetive sparring). having said that, Wing Chun has flaws as do many styles. And these are exposed in the ring/cage.


Wondering what you think the 'flaws' are I am aware of no 'flaws' in the system. I have yet to see anyone doing real Wing Chun in any of these events.

Wing Chun indeed was designed as a stand up system - this is not a flaw it is simply a matter of survival. On the 'battle field' of old and the subway of today rolling around on the ground is not advisable. A good Wing Chun man will issue energy and control his opponent be him a kicker, grappler or whatever else.

Jim

[Mr. Bao]

Jaeson's post was on the money. Most MMA or NHB fighters aren't doing pure or conventional fighting arts. They are cross training much like what Bruce Lee was doing and teaching nearly 40 years ago. Even BBJ, isn't pure jiu jitsu; in NHB fights they do more than BJJ, then have used many other different tactics from other fighting arts to bridge their game which is the ground. In reality, they too have crossed trained as well.

Wing Chun kung fu has to play its own game to work and not play the game of someone elses. I have heard from several experts what wing chun should do in these kind of matches, but I can't hope to recall what Bruce Lee have said about partial perception about seeing what is the now? All martial artists say many things about what they will do, but I must hold my doubts until they have proven their cases. I have the the greatest respect for martial artists who go and lay down the skills for the general public. No matter what style.

I am sure WC as well as many styles have learned from NHB matches is more dynamic than what they have been taught.

Bao

[Mr. Bao]

Jaeson's post was on the money. Most MMA or NHB fighters aren't doing pure or conventional fighting arts. They are cross training much like what Bruce Lee was doing and teaching nearly 40 years ago. Even BBJ, isn't pure jiu jitsu; in NHB fights they do more than BJJ, then have used many other different tactics from other fighting arts to bridge their game which is the ground. In reality, they too have crossed trained as well.

Wing Chun kung fu has to play its own game to work and not play the game of someone elses. I have heard from several experts what wing chun should do in these kind of matches, but I can't hope to recall what Bruce Lee have said about partial perception about seeing what is the now? All martial artists say many things about what they will do, but I must hold my doubts until they have proven their cases. I have the the greatest respect for martial artists who go and lay down the skills for the general public. No matter what style.

I am sure WC as well as many styles have learned from NHB matches is more dynamic than what they have been taught.

Bao

[Mr. Bao]

Jaeson's post was on the money. Most MMA or NHB fighters aren't doing pure or conventional fighting arts. They are cross training much like what Bruce Lee was doing and teaching nearly 40 years ago. Even BBJ, isn't pure jiu jitsu; in NHB fights they do more than BJJ, then have used many other different tactics from other fighting arts to bridge their game which is the ground. In reality, they too have crossed trained as well.

Wing Chun kung fu has to play its own game to work and not play the game of someone elses. I have heard from several experts what wing chun should do in these kind of matches, but I can't hope to recall what Bruce Lee have said about partial perception about seeing what is the now? All martial artists say many things about what they will do, but I must hold my doubts until they have proven their cases. I have the the greatest respect for martial artists who go and lay down the skills for the general public. No matter what style.

I am sure WC as well as many styles have learned from NHB matches is more dynamic than what they have been taught.

Bao

[Shäolin]

Originally posted by Mr. Bao

I am sure WC as well as many styles have learned from NHB matches is more dynamic than what they have been taught.

Bao

Well I for one am not aware of anything as dynamic as Wing Chun :D If by dynamic one means:

1.
a) Of or relating to energy or to objects in motion.
b) Of or relating to the study of dynamics.

2. Characterized by continuous change, activity, or progress.

Marked by intensity and vigor; forceful. See Synonyms at active.
Of or relating to variation of intensity.

Jim

[BeiKongHui]

Wondering what you think the 'flaws' are I am aware of no 'flaws' in the system. I have yet to see anyone doing real Wing Chun in any of these events.

I don't think "flaw" is the right word. That would indicate that a mistake was made in it's creation. What we do see is a "weakness" and that is WCK's weakness against wrestlers and on the ground. Unless you live in a fantasy world this is the reality of the system and as such we should realize it rather than ignore it since one day it may be we pay with our lives in assuming such "superiority".

I doubt you will ever see anyone doing "real" WCK in the ring (at least Yip Man WCK I don't know about the others) because it's not made for competition and squaring off with a fighter who trains to compete in NHB would be suicide.

[Clint]

OH, A JOKE. UHHH, I GET IT! YEAHHH
I WILL CONSIDER TURNING MY CAPS LOCK OFF, DIM SUM!!!!:eek:

[Shäolin]

Originally posted by BeiKongHui


I don't think "flaw" is the right word. That would indicate that a mistake was made in it's creation. What we do see is a "weakness" and that is WCK's weakness against wrestlers and on the ground. Unless you live in a fantasy world this is the reality of the system and as such we should realize it rather than ignore it since one day it may be we pay with our lives in assuming such "superiority".

I doubt you will ever see anyone doing "real" WCK in the ring (at least Yip Man WCK I don't know about the others) because it's not made for competition and squaring off with a fighter who trains to compete in NHB would be suicide.



Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more.

Wing Chun is quite capable of dealing with a grappler. The Wing Chun fighter must join with his opponent's living energy be him a kicker or grappler. There is nothing magical about what grapplers do. They are attempting to issue energy just as we do, except they are working with the disadvantage of having to be closer and make more contact while leaving their Centerline wide open. The Wing Chun man who is well trained can issue energy and control balance at a greater distance and with greater dexterity than can the grappler - period.

Now anyone can get surprised in the street and go down. I am not suggesting that Wing Chun can be used on the ground, although the concepts certainly could be. I am researching this now and I defer to my SiHing on that. If your stuck on your back then perhaps some BJJ would be of use. My late Sifu used to say, "If you fall down - better get up quick." But make no mistake - a good Wing Chun man is just as good if not better at controlling balance and stealing it as are any grapplers.

You state that Wing Chun is not intended for competing, in this I agree. However it is intended for combat and nothing the present group of fighters in these contests measures up with a well trained set of Wing Chun skills as far a stand up fighting goes. 99% of these fighters have no hands are clearly afraid to be in striking range, and have no 'trapping range' experience whatsoever. This is why time and time again you will see some desperate long range, reaching hand attacks followed by a quick "oh my god" change to rolling around on the ground (submission).

Just posted this in another thread but it applies here too.

http://www.fightauthority.com/movies/accion2.wmv

Jim

[fa_jing]

Shaolin - that video did not show a good example of a shoot. Sorry but that's what you get when you demonstrate with your students. They cannot "imitate" what a wrestler does. Nevertheless I do think that WC has some good, clever responses to the shoot.

[Merryprankster]

Shaolin, I think you are quite mistaken. You want sensitivity, grappling does it quite well. Oh, I know you have sensitivity, but I know some of the WC guys on here call grappling "full body chi sao." Subtle weight shifts, response to movement, understanding the way the body moves and pressure, knowing when to close space and create space are all not just part of, but the primary attributes trained by grappling.

The thing you showed is a rotten example of what even a DECENT grappler would do to enter. It's the equivalent of throwing a drunken roundhouse punch and countering it. Find a real grappler and play for awhile. You probably have some things to surprise him with as well.

[Shäolin]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Subtle weight shifts, response to movement, understanding the way the body moves and pressure, knowing when to close space and create space are all not just part of, but the primary attributes trained by grappling.


As it is with Wing Chun, with one addition - use and study of the Centerline.

Wondering, have you studied Wing Chun?


Originally posted by Merryprankster
The thing you showed is a rotten example of what even a DECENT grappler would do to enter. It's the equivalent of throwing a drunken roundhouse punch and countering it. Find a real grappler and play for awhile. You probably have some things to surprise him with as well.

Oh c'mon guys, the clip was not intended to be the be all end all of 'shoot demonstration,' just an example.

Jim

[red5angel]

I dont think this issue will be solved on the "technique" level. I think that it is mainly a training issue. On top of all that Martial Artist can be surprisingly ignorant when it comes to hand to hand combat sometimes. They often fall into the trap of believing that the way they train is the way most fights will go down. Look at the TMA guys who do MMA tournemants and such. These guys go in and then get tackled and beaten to a pulp. I say if you want to learn to use your art to fight them get together with some of them and fight. Train with them and see what happens. WC has just as many answers to the problems of grappling as any art needs to, its just a lack of understanding on wingchun thet gets most people in trouble.
I say if you seriously think its the art you are a fool. Most martial arts have been around for a while and have the answers they need to be effective against ANYONE. The failing is 99.9% of the time in the practitioner.

[Merryprankster]

Shaolin--

Inside control--a PRIMARY emphasis in grappling of any kind, is the grappling version of controlling the centerline. No dice ;)

Where in the NYC metro area are you? I get up that way frequently. Would love a friendly session if we can make it work, if not, ah well :)

[BeiKongHui]

Wing Chun is quite capable of dealing with a grappler. The Wing Chun fighter must join with his opponent's living energy be him a kicker or grappler. There is nothing magical about what grapplers do. They are attempting to issue energy just as we do, except they are working with the disadvantage of having to be closer and make more contact while leaving their Centerline wide open. The Wing Chun man who is well trained can issue energy and control balance at a greater distance and with greater dexterity than can the grappler - period.

Man, you try that theory out on Merryprankster and let us know how it goes. I do both WCK and grappling and I personally have taken WCK people to the ground who think like you do and who had more experience than you. Heck a couple of them were even in the same lineage as you. So I'm sure someone who trains grappling intensly everyday would have no problems breaking your horse and dropping you on your head. And what if you fall? How are you going to get back up? Or fight from your back? I'd have my knee on your diaphram and be pounding your face. Eye gouges? Groin shots? Everyone knows those, too and if you go for my eyes or groin while I'm on top of you I'm going to hit you even harder or tear your shoulder out of socket.

All the theories and talking don't mean anything unless they work in the real world.

[Merryprankster]

Side note--has anybody here done any pummelling? I do a lot of it--it's a standard wrestling drill. At my one and only MMA fight, a WC guy was preparing in his corner of the prep room, and they were all very curious about pummelling. They fathomed IMMEDIATELY that it was for inside control (control of the centerline.) Once I drew the analogy to their Chi Sao drill, you should have seen the light go on. Wonderful when people of different styles can speak the same language!

Red- actually, what most styles get very good at is countering and attacking their OWN style, with little bits that will theoretically be useful against other types of attacks. I've yet to see a strict high school wrestler with great punch defense, but they sprawl pretty good.

I think we all need to wake up to the reality that you should go to something for its specialty. WC has some great things going for it, I'm sure, but I'm betting committed grappling defense/attacks ain't one of them. I know that straight BJJ doesn't teach you how to punch and kick too well!

I don't understand what is so hard about that particular concept. It doesn't MEAN that WC sucks--it doesn't even mean there is a hole in the training. It means that somewhere else, somebody has a more developed understanding of a concept because they do it more often.

[BeiKongHui]

has anybody here done any pummelling?

Yes, it was part of my MMA training. I think more WCK people should look into it since we stay so close in we are always vulnerable to the clinch.

[Clint]

I don't know alot about grappling! A friend of mine took jujitsu, and aikido for over 10 yrs. Said they are good, but would not use them on the street. He also took wing chun for 5 yrs, and said it is all he will use against an attacker or multiple attackers. Not that he trys not to use the other styles, he just reacts with wing chun, he said its more straight to the point, and easier to deal with more than one attacker, because you are not grappled onto the legs of another while getting a beat down from whoever else is attacking you. I personally cannot comment on grappling. All I have really seen on it has been on UFC. Looks very good, but also looks like it requires alot of brute strength. If I amm 160lbs, could I deal with a fellow grappler of 260lbs? hmmmmm

[BeiKongHui]

Why does your friend think WCK is better against multiple attackers? Even top rate guys (in any art) can barely handle more than one person so why would he think a hobbyist could beat more than one attacker?

Also, at least for Brazilian JuJitsu size is not that important. I've seen a 5'5" 130lbs blue belt hand a 6"4" 250lbs wrestler his a$$. In fact in reality I'd say grappling is more of an equalizer for the little guy than just about any striking art.

[Clint]

That is good to know! I kind of wondered how a smaller guy would measure up in grappling. I think his grappling style was japanese. I don't personally know the diff.

[Clint]

Multiple attackers, hmmm... all depends on the fighter and attackers of course. Three of my fellow wing chun students, who had all practiced for over two yrs, not that that is great or anything, but not bad. They were all hardcore wing chun practitioners (pretty good too). They thought it would be funny to jump our Sifu when he was not expecting it, just to see how good he would be reacting to a surprise attack from more than one person. I personally watched Sifu hand all three of them their ass in a few seconds. Apparently Sifu likes that! Good response training!

[Merryprankster]

Grappling has its uses, and does not mean you close and stay there. For instance, there's the clinch, push off, and combos to the head. Or sprawl and knee. Or sprawl and hook to the head. Or throw and run like hell.

I would also agree that grappling is an amazing equalizer--a 280 lbs guy can absorb more punishment than a 140 lbs guy--case closed--do you REALLY think that 140 lb guy is going to knock out his opponent or take out his knee (Ever seen the legs on a 280 lb 6' 7" guy? YEESH!)--he might. But I'm betting not. On the other hand, a choke works on everybody, and strength and size will not protect you if you don't know how to stay out of the choke.

I don't advocate rolling around on the street. I do advocate knowing how to reverse positions and get up. Grappling training is very very good for this. For those that tell me WC has this, WC has it like BJJ kicks and punches.

[OdderMensch]

BJJ has kicks and punchs?

[Merryprankster]

BJJ has kicks and punches?

They focus on them like WC focuses on groundfighting, yeah :)

Again, its not an art superiority thing, and I don't think everybody needs to become a groundfighting expert. Being a decent BJJ blue belt with some time in, is probably enough to get you back on your feet, most of the time. The rest is simply for love of the art. I make an assumption (I might be wrong) that WC is similar--you should be able to handle MOST of what comes at you after a certain period of time, and the rest of the time spent is for love of the art.

[UltimateFighter]

Originally posted by Shäolin


Well I for one am not aware of anything as dynamic as Wing Chun :D If by dynamic one means:

1.
a) Of or relating to energy or to objects in motion.
b) Of or relating to the study of dynamics.

2. Characterized by continuous change, activity, or progress.

Marked by intensity and vigor; forceful. See Synonyms at active.
Of or relating to variation of intensity.




I think your posts on this topic have been somewhat naive. I always make a distinction between STANDUP styles and Grappling styles. Grappling can happen on the feet as well as on the ground. The fact is, I train WingTsun for standup. Yes, WT and some other WC branches have done their best to fit Wingchun into the ground fight, but it must be accepted that that is not what Wingchun was designed for. I have Judo to back me up for grappling and ground fighting. If you do not have any grappling experince, I strongly suggest you get some before you find yourself in a violent encounter and get hurt.

If you look at boxing as a standup style, it is awsome. If you look at it as Total self defence, it sucks. That is becasue boxing is only designed for standup. It can be used in conjunction with a grappling style like wrestling as a devastating combination. The same is the case for Wing Chun. Wing Chun, all branches, are traditionally Chinese 'boxing'. The true history of Wing Chun is not known. Who's to say that the poepl who devised it did not use it in conjunction with some grappling styles like Chin-Na (Chinese wrestling)? To claim Wing Chun is total self defence after everything MMA has taught us is ludicrous.

[old jong]

I am not,and I believe that it should not be a valable reason to learn Wing Chun.
Wing Chun is very effective as a self-defense system when it's principles are followed and it is well suited to the ordinary people who could'nt care less about sport fighting (no disrespect intended at those who think otherwise!)
A self-defense thing is nothing like a ring fight and a well placed and timed punch could hurt even a guy like Royce Gracie and knock him out!...;)
Who knows what can happen in the street?...Who can really predict that this technique or that other one will work?...We live in an unpredictable world and no one has all the answers.
Anybody can win or lose.Could he be a great champion in the ring or just the average martial artist.Or...The untrained person with a will to defend himself.

[Martial Joe]

I dont think this issue will be solved on the "technique" level. I think that it is mainly a training issue. On top of all that Martial Artist can be surprisingly ignorant when it comes to hand to hand combat sometimes. They often fall into the trap of believing that the way they train is the way most fights will go down. Look at the TMA guys who do MMA tournemants and such. These guys go in and then get tackled and beaten to a pulp. I say if you want to learn to use your art to fight them get together with some of them and fight. Train with them and see what happens. WC has just as many answers to the problems of grappling as any art needs to, its just a lack of understanding on wingchun thet gets most people in trouble.


Beautiful.

[UltimateFighter]

Its all about training. Most people forget that chi sau is just a training aid, it will not teach you to fight. Its about time we saw some guy who cross train in WC/Wt have some success in MMA, otherwise people are gonna completely lose confidence in the system, ans Wing Chun will just have to categorised with other types of 'gung-fu'.

[old jong]

There are things somebody with two years of Chi Sau just could'nt see or feel. There are things a five years experimented guy in Chi Sau still can't!...We can learn forever in Chi Sau if we are honest with ourselves and take care not to think that we are there!... Chi Sau is a lot more than relaxing the limbs or a sensitivity drill.

[AndrewS]

You can learn forever in chi sao, yet not everything can be learned in chi sao. I would also argue that there are things which you may train in chi sao which you will only realize you can train in chi sao by going outside of it. It's a tool. A good one, a fun one, but merely a tool much like (insert name here)

FWIW,

Andrew

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by UltimateFighter
Its all about training. Most people forget that chi sau is just a training aid, it will not teach you to fight. Its about time we saw some guy who cross train in WC/Wt have some success in MMA, otherwise people are gonna completely lose confidence in the system, ans Wing Chun will just have to categorised with other types of 'gung-fu'.

What's wrong with other types of Gong-Fu? I've seen and experienced great northern mantis, shaui chiao, and Taiji. Xing-yi looks awesome and so does Longfist. Wing Chun is unique but it's no better or worse than the rest. It is not wise to judge styles based on a few poor performances in the UFC. Hey, I've seen JKD guys get beat down in the UFC, does that mean JKD is a lesser style? Now what you said about training is true.

[UltimateFighter]

I am not a 'Kung Fu' fighter. 'Kung Fu' is a generic term that covers literally hundreds of styles, many of which are unrelated. And you are correct, I do not rate most styles of Kung Fu becasue they have shown no evidence of being effecive. The only systems of Kung fu I personally rate at all are Shaolin (The mother art), Wing Chun, and San Sou.

Preying Mantis and monkey style etc I prefer to leave to the Chinese opera. But each to his own. MMA is a VERY realsitic rperesantion of what works and doesn't in the real world. I see no reason why Wing Chun cannot be effective as a standup style to cross train in, but it is a matter of trainin for that specific event.

[Clint]

Kung Fu is a misused term. It doesn't even mean martial arts. I have looked it up in the past and found definitions like "human effort" and "applied skill." It can be related to anything from baseball to cooking. Wushu is literally translated as fighting arts or military arts. This is the word I think many people intend to use when discussing fighting styles. The word kung fu has been misused for so long, it is all americans know to call chinese styles of fighting. :)

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by UltimateFighter
I do not rate most styles of Kung Fu becasue they have shown no evidence of being effecive.

They have shown no evidence to you. I have experienced other styles of Kung fu, that have made intuitive sense to me, and been demonstrated on me. After a while, as I'm sure you know, you start to be able to understand martial arts when they are personally presented to you, and you pass judgement on the techniques and their practicioners--this is good, I can't figure out what that one's for, looks too complicated, but that one looks/feels legit, I need to be able to deal with that. I never saw anything that was better as a complete system than Wingchun. But what I realized is that most quality Chinese martial arts are really highly developed. I would expect the same of Phillipino and other ethnic group's martial arts. They may primarily deal with a certain battle strategy that is not so relavent today in certain cases, not all of them are good for kickboxing or sportfighting, not all of them are good for close-quarters weapons defense techniques, but fortunately many are good and adaptable to the ring and modern self-defense needs, like Wing Chun and others.

[yuanfen]

Merryprankster had it right. Lots of good wing chun people
dont pay attention to TV-UFC.
UF can make of that what he wants to. Regarding his comments on mantis---there are different kinds- good jook lum mantis folks
are not likely to care either.