Sticking Hands in SPM

[Anand Paul]

Quite recently I attended my Chow Gar praying mantis class, and a few of the senior students ware doing what looked like chi sao (sticking hands), except using SPM techniques. I was wondering if this was an integrated part of the system or weather it is used as an additional sensitivity training exercise.

-Cheers in advance.

[Hungmei]

>Quite recently I attended my Chow Gar praying mantis class, and a few of the senior students ware doing what looked like chi sao (sticking hands), except using SPM techniques. I was wondering if this was an integrated part of the system or weather it is used as an additional sensitivity training exercise.

Reasonable question. Is there a reasonable answer as to why you've brought this matter to a public forum as opposed to asking your Senior's? John

[Water Dragon]

How much value will Taiji's push hands give to SPM's feeding hands?

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Some. But there are significant differences.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[Water Dragon]

This was gonna be a show me question for the end of the month. It's been on my mind for about 6 months now. I want you to feel Dr. Tao's method first as it is signifigantly different from most people's expression of Tui Shou. ;)

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

[Sihing73]

Hello Hungmei,

Is there a reason not to bring this question to a public forum? While I agree that the question should be asked at ones kwoon and among ones peers I also see no reason not to seek outside opinions as well. I feel that this could aide one in further understanding things and getting a broader perspective. I am not sure if I am getting the right impression but it seems like you like to promote more of a closed door approach which has the appearence of not sharing openly outside of your lineage. If I misunderstand then I gladly appoligize but this is the appearence I got.

Anand,
I have no real experieince with SPM so I regret I can offer you no real input as to your original question. You may wish to visit the Wing Chun board and try to get in contact with some of Steve Cottrels students. If I am not mistaken he teaches Wing Chun and Praying Mantis although I do not know of which family.

Peace,

Dave

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Annand,

All the various SPM branches and Pai have versions of bridge sensitivity training, some are soft and some hard - the harder two man 'Doi-Chongs' have little in common with Wing-Chun. The softer 'Mor-Sau' or 'Mor-Kiu' (feeling the bridge) methods are more similar but as with Wing-Chun they refelct the systems theories and principles and these can vary between SPM systems as much as they do between SPM and Wing-Chun.

Some of my students have compared their Mor-Kiu with wing-Chun's chi-sau (with Samuel Kwok Si-Fu back in 1988). The 'results showed that if WC geometry was adhered to then WC has the advantage.
If however, it becomes a free play situation then the Lee-Yin-Sing Jook-Lum students carried it as their training involves much less formal and repetitive/cyclical structure. Indeed in a comparrison of single arm engaements the WC came of much worse. That was at the time - which was a long time ago. I also teach WC - which I think the moderator is aware of. My position on the two methods is that where it is not abstracted into something quite separate or where it is not overly stated, WC's sticking hands are a very good training exercise. In Lee-Yin-Sing's Jook-Lum Mantis, it is only a sensitivity exercise and students are remindd again and again that real fighting does not follow
such fixed cyclical patterns. Once sensitivity on the bridge is developed, then whole-body sensing is introduced at which point abstracted and isolated bridge training becomes somewhat obsolete.

My experience of Tai-Chi likewise of WC and Jook-Lum is that its pushing hands follows that systems principles. In Lee-Yin-Sing's Jook-Lum there is some similarities with Tai-Chi (more in fact than with WC) as the whole body ging and sensitivity is emphasised. I can't speak for the other Jook-Lum branches, but I'm sure that their representatives could offer much for our understanding.

Aussie John, who posts here is a practitioner of Chow-Gar as well as Jook-Lum and may be able to add something on the different empahsis between the two systems with respect to sensitivity training and more broadly 'sticking' hands as Chow-Gar is noted for its harder and powerful Doi-Chong exercises.

I hope that the above is of some help.

Kindest Regards,

Steve Richards.

[Steven T. Richards]

Those who know Jack (John) know that his style is Socratic in that he often posts prompts as an oportunity for people to develop their line or point further. A response to the post by Jack, as questioned by the forum moderator above, might allow the original poster to highlight his background and training and maybe the background thinking behind his question. Elucidation from prompts is a 'reasonable' aspect to debate, just as Jack suggests, and has been recognised as such within the classical western tradition since at least the 5th century BC in Athens.

Kindest Regards,

Steve Richards.

[Sihing73]

Hello Steve,

While I concede your point I also would like to raise the possibility that the "prompt" by Jack(?) could also have a negative affect. It could be construed as intimidating by the questioner and lead them to abandon their quest for knowledge in the first place. They may feel that they overstepped some boundary by posing the question in the first place.

If you read my post you will see I gave my impression and also stated that if I was incorrect offered an apology. However, I am not basing my opinion on this one post but on several that have appeared throughout the different boards. Some of those posts would be dificult to interpret, IMHO, as anything other than a negative attack. However it is not my wish to enter into any type of negative posting so I will defer to your interpretation of his motives.

Peace,

Dave

[Hungmei]

>Is there a reason not to bring this question to a public forum?

Depends, in one instance it may promote clarity, in another, confusion.

>While I agree that the question should be asked at ones kwoon and among ones peers I also see no reason not to seek outside opinions as well.

Depends as well. "Outside" opinions are just that "outside the scope of the teacher's transmission of his/her art." The poster identified himself as a newbie and as such it seems reasonable to me that he first seek clarification from the fountain head. In order to properly value a given opinion a person must have a reasonable knowledge base from which to form judgements. How do you propose he arrive at a reasonable decision as to the relative merit of a Forum opinion when he himself has nothing (SPM) with which to compare & contrast?

>I feel that this could aide one in further understanding things and getting a broader perspective.

Perhaps, but in order to get to the place you're referring to a person must "bring something to the table" and right now the guy's plate is empty.

>I am not sure if I am getting the right impression but it seems like you like to promote more of a closed door approach which has the appearance of not sharing openly outside of your lineage.

Understood, and incorrect. If that were the case I wouldn't even involve myself in this type of activity. I don't abide by the "Hooray for me, and to hell with you" mindset. IMO, it only promotes stasis, and stasis is tantamount to death.

>If I misunderstand then I gladly appoligize but this is the appearence I got.

I never ask for or require a personal apology. The written word is inherently sloppy, misunderstandings arise, and most of us are slogging through this thing to the best of our abilities. John

[Steven T. Richards]

Yes, the Socratic style is harsh in appearnce sometimes. The proof will be if the questioner joins in with the on-going reflection (which includes your posts) and moves himself and others on. If we don't 'examine ourselves' then posts become monologic statements. In the East of course harsh questions are designed to put people off, but knowing Jack as I do his style is western and dialectical.

Best Regards,

Steve Richards.

[fiercest tiger]

i was wondering if you could explain the workings or mor kuil and mor sau, if you dont mind? is it the same a s bak mei's mor kuil and lung yings mor kuil or different.

kuil and sau are 2 different parts so would you do your exercise different when doing mor kuil compared to mor sau?

thanks in advance :)

regards

Garry

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[Hungmei]

>Yes, the Socratic style is harsh in appearance sometimes.

Thanks for filling in the blanks for me Steve. This verbal format really doesn't suit me worth a crap.

The other side of the coin is that it never ceases to amaze me how ungodly mouthy and noble some people are outside of arm's distance.

People seem to forget, and most do it intentionally because they are scared ****less, is that this thing is MARTIAL Art.

Frickin unreal, and if someone would have told me 30 years that things would come to this I would have laughed in their face, . . . and then kicked their ass :) John

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Quote:
[The other side of the coin is that it never ceases to amaze me how ungodly mouthy and noble some people are outside of arm's distance.]

Please feel free to e-mail me it is listed in my profile while I failed to see one for you. I will be visiting Baltimore in the near future to visit the aquarium, perhaps we could meet. As you say the written word is not always reliable so it is possible to be misconstrued. A meeting in person often serves to clear up many things. You sound just like one of the guys I trained Wing Chun with :)

Peace,

Dave

[fukien]

Hunggie is doing what he does best, making friends! :D

After all, HE knows whats best, he will tell you so, and then threaten to kick your ass since "this verbal format" does not suit him. :D

Hey Hunggie, since you get your knickers in a twist over just about everything , why don't you start a "Closed Discussion Board" so you can control everything that is posted? You know, just like (TABOO) at www.(TABOO).com (http://www.[TABOO).com)?

I wonder if Socrates ever kicked somebodys ass for asking a question in a PUBLIC forum?‡

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Garry,

You'd really have to ask people from other jook-Lum branches, but from what I have seen what passes for Mor-Sau in some is effectively what passes for Mor-Kiu in others. In Lee-Yin-Sing's Mantis, the bridge is a whole body contact, as energies are felt and discharged through the whole structure rather than say as can happen in Wing-Chun (sometimes) be mainly if not exclusively limited to forearm (wristto below the elbow) sensitivity. Of course, pressure changes in Wing-Chun are felt through the body, but the emphasis is maiinly on the lower arm. The use of chi-gerk in Wing-Chun goes a way towards extending this, but in my personal experienec of the two systems Mantis is less abstracted and more whole body orientated. You'd need to experienec it of course so a written exposition is likely to be incomplete. In Lee-Yin-Sing, Mor-Kiu is distinct from the Chy Sau Doi-Chong's typical say of Chow-Gar Tong-Long.

Hope this helps,

Best Regards,

Steve.

[Steven T. Richards]

Socrates was a scultor, dialectical philosopher and a soldier. He kicked plenty of 'ass' in his day, and did so in a REAL public forum, rather than a 'virtual' one like this.

Dialectiaclly, you'd have failed at the first fence as your lack of openness eliminates any possibility of you learning anything beyond your bitterness.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Anand,

Do you have any comments having read the points raised thus far? it would be interesting and informative to hear them.

Best Regards,

Steve Richards.

[tnwingtsun]

I'll get ahold of this one tomorrow.
:D

[Hungmei]

>Please feel free to e-mail me it is listed in my profile while I failed to see one for you.

That's interesting. I just checked my profile and it's listed. Additionally, I've contacted you about another matter off list, as you failed to respond perhaps you didn't see that either.

>I will be visiting Baltimore in the near future to visit the aquarium, perhaps we could meet.

Just let me know the date(s) you will be in town and I'll clear my calendar so we can meet. There's a park right down the street from the Aquarium so we can touch hands as well.

>As you say the written word is not always reliable so it is possible to be misconstrued.

Exactly, and the spoken word if often times equally reliable. That's why when "speaking" of TCMA we "talk" through our hands.

>A meeting in person often serves to clear up many things.

Agreed.

>You sound just like one of the guys I trained Wing Chun with

Whatever that means. No need to respond in the forum, save it for our meeting. John

[Sihing73]

Hello Hungmei,

I am sorry but when I click on your profile I still do not see an e-mail address. Perhaps it is in stealth mode :rolleyes: It is difficult to e-mail someone without an address to send to :confused:

As to your having e-mailed me before and me not responding, I do not recall getting anything from you but I could be mistaken. However, to rectify things let me give you both of my e-mail addresses so you can definetly contact me, if you wish to:

dmcknight@rcn.com
Sihing73@juno.com

Either of those should allow you to reach me. As I said when I look at your profile I don't see an e-mail address listed. Perhaps you could post it here on this board to insure I have no excuse for getting back to you.

Should we decide to meet would you mind if I had someone record the event for posterity? I would be glad to provide you with copies of any photos taken. :D Our meeting could be a friendly exchange or something else. My preference would be one of friendship but if one wanted to "talk with the hands" in a more serious light I could be up for that as well. However, I have been told I "talk" too much and sometimes do not know when to shut up. ;)

In any event, it is not my intention to trade posts across the board which serve us not purpose. If you would be so kind as to e-mail me or list your e-mail either in your profile or on this board I would be glad to discuss this further off list.

Peace,

Dave
BTW: Here is what shows up under your profile notice that e-mail is blank. What profile were you looking at?

User Profile for Hungmei
Date Registered: 08-26-01
Status: Member
Total Posts: 50
View Posts By this Member
Email: -
Home Page: -
Picture: -
Gender: Male
Date of Birth: -
Location: Maryland, USA
Occupation: -
Interests: -
About Hungmei: Fukien White Crane - 1964-1970; Toishan Hung Gar - 1970-1975 HK Hung Gar - 1975-present SPM - 1975-present
ICQ Number: -
What style of Martial Arts do you practice?: SPM
How long have you trained?: Approx. 36 years

[Hungmei]

I am sorry but when I click on your profile I still do not see an e-mail address. Perhaps it is in stealth mode It is difficult to e-mail someone without an address to send to.

The profile you list below is accurate save for lacking my e-mail address. I'm sending you an e-mail to both of your listed addresses immediately upon submittal of this post.

>As to your having e-mailed me before and me not responding, I do not recall getting anything from you but I could be mistaken.

Okay, that explains the disconnect. I e-mailed the "moderator" who is listed under admin.

>Either of those should allow you to reach me. As I said when I look at your profile I don't see an e-mail address listed. Perhaps you could post it here on this board to insure I have no excuse for getting back to you.

Nope to posting my e-mail, and you now have no excuse for not getting back to me. I don't want a flood of bull**** mail from the Trekkie Trolls.

Speaking of "posts" I see where Fukien and his electronic girlfriend uncle have posted yet another crock of crap. In recognition of your previously articulated position, on this forum no less, of being very concerned about "negative" inferences and all, I'm sure you'll do the right thing with regard to their posts. After all, it might scare off someone if they had the impression that the Southern Fist was inundated with poseurs, wannabes & weenies. Got to watch those vibrations, don't you know :)

>Should we decide to meet would you mind if I had someone record the event for posterity?

I've all ready agreed to meet, you're the one who apparently has some misgivings. Sitting on that fence must hurt your ass after a while, why not get off it?

As for "recording" I insist on it. Video tape works best and I'll supply the camera & tape. You're free & welcome to keep the tape which I will give to you immediately upon conclusion of our meeting.

>I would be glad to provide you with copies of any photos taken.

No need and see above.

>Our meeting could be a friendly exchange or something else.

I have a standard rule of thumb and here it is:
"I go as hard as you go".

>My preference would be one of friendship but if one wanted to "talk with the hands" in a more serious light I could be up for that as well.

That's your decision, I'll accommodate you either way. There's no "could be up" in my world.

>However, I have been told I "talk" too much and sometimes do not know when to shut up.

Whatever

>In any event, it is not my intention to trade posts across the board which serve us not purpose.

Agreed, but since you've put this out to the public I'm responding in kind.

>If you would be so kind as to e-mail me or list your e-mail either in your profile or on this board I would be glad to discuss this further off list.

See above, and there's no need for further discussion, just give me the date(s) you will be in town and I'll calendar accordingly.

>Peace

Sure, "Peace through the total destruction of all enemies" :)

>BTW: Here is what shows up under your profile notice that e-mail is blank. What profile were you looking at?

See above, same one. John

[Anand Paul]

I did consult one of the senior students who took part in the training exercise, and he simply refered to it as crossing hands?. Within the SPM system the two man drills (or chongs)involve a great deal of sticking at the wrists. I think this sticking hands training will speed up the development of the sensitivity skills, that would be developed by doing the chongs over and over.
I was wondering if anyone doing SPM has encountered anything like this aswell?

[Water Dragon]

And this thread had SO MUCH potential in the beginning.

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

[Anand Paul]

I asked one of the senior students who took part in the training exercise. He simply refered to it as crossing hands?. SMP has two man drills (or chongs) which involve maintaining wrist contact in order to train the sensitivity skills in the practitioner. I belive that this sticky hands weather is appart of the system or not will speed up the practitoners development of these sensitivity skills then performing the chongs over and over.
I was wondering if anyone else doing SPM has experience anything like this?

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Anand,

Sounds like standard SPM, which school are you with? There are some excellent Chow-Gar schools in the Uk with first rate teachers. My experience of CG people as a whole is that they are genuine and honourable martial artists and their Senior UK practitioners are a credit to TCMA.

If you scroll back a few posts you might find a discussion on Mor-Kiu/Mor-Sau as contrasted with hard Doi-Chong's/Chy-Sau. Maybe that will help your understanding.

Best Regards,

Steve Richards.

[Sihing73]

Hello All,

I would like to offer an appology to everyone for allowing myself to be drawn into the politics dealing with the people responsible for some of the negative postings here and elsewhere. It seems that my initial attempt to point out my impression that Hungmei's original post could be viewed in a negative context has led to moving this post off topic and into one of personal differences. While I was willing to let the matter drop after the reply from Lee-Yin-Sing Pai and was willing to defer to his interpretation of Hungmei's motivation. Given this medium it is quite possible to misunderstand someone. Unfortunately, I feel that Hungmei has made a veiled threat towards me which I feel obligated to respond to. He and I will continue this discussion off list and I am sure will be able to resolve things with a personal meeting sometime in the near future.

I wish to make it clear that I have no affiliation with anyone of the aforementioned group nor do I wish to take sides. It is an unfortunate circumstance when grown men can not enter into a discussion without resorting to threats and insults. I regret allowing myself to be drawn into this mess. I will not be posting any more regarding this subject and will address any issues I have directly with Hungmei who has contacted me via e-mail. I will also respect his wish not to make his e-mail address public knowledge.

Peace,

I have removed references to SPM at the request of Steve Richards who assured me this was not an issue between his Pai and myself. Finding Steve to be a reasonable person I have no wish to drag him or those associated with him into a mud slinging contest. I have always foudn him to behave as a gentleman and wish him the best.

Dave

[This message was edited by Sihing73 on 09-08-01 at 03:20 PM.]

[Steven T. Richards]

This situation has as I see it developed out of a misunderstanding and will serve no one any good unless they be the kind of trouble makers who 'get off' on seeing experienced and mature middle generation martial artists be successfully baited into a pointless confrontation.

Although I am not my brothers keeper, Jack IS most certainly my 'Brother' and a valued member of my Pai. Knowing Jack as I do, I believe that he has acted in defence of his Pai against troublemeakers who have posted unwarranted and unsolicited attacks against Lee-Yin-Sing's Pai both on this and other forums -a perfectly reasonable thing to do for someone of his generation and status.

Regarding the e-mail issue, anyone with any internet experience at all knows the risks of publishing an e-mail address as it draws attention from the kind of no-mark troublemakers that Jack is concerned to defend his Pai against.
That however, is NOT anonymity, Jack is well known and can be contacted appropriately and will make welcome any honset and serious martial artist with due respect and friendship. There is of course no reason to extend that grace to no-mark, destructive wannabe's. Indeed to do so is pure folly.

Jack has no need at all to prove himself or his skill, unlke perhaps most, he has walked the talk in the most extreme of environments. Dave (Forum Moderator) although I do not know him perosnally to any real extent, has said that he is an experienced former Law-Enforcement Officer and as such will have a very good grounding in real-life application of martial arts also. likewise, there is then little if anything to prove on his part.

What I find deeply saddening is that anonymous no-marks can effectively bait such fine people into effectively challenging one-anothet over a misinterpreation and/or frank misunderstanding.

Surely, the no-marks concerned should rather be dealt with appropriately - by giving them no face or response whatsoever - including a refusal to allow them to publish inflamatory slander on a forum like this - which if Dave's ethic is anything to go by, should never happen.

I have tried to be open and have often failed in my efforts as this internet medium is so very difficult to express yourself within clearly and equitably. Surely though, the more experienced amongst us can set the appropriate example to the younger generation of students - after all we have the main day to day responsibility to pass on the teaching of the elders.

I have absolutely no doubt that Jack would never back down from a confrontation, and it seems likely that Dave would be similar. But what would it achieve?

Jack retains my absolute confidence and full personal support -I wish to make that beyond question should any doubt be felt by any party.

Nevertheless, can I appeal to the more constructive side of martial virtue and ask that debate forestall the necssity for pointless strife.

Sincerely,

Steve Richards.

[Anand Paul]

My Sifu is Master Ip Chee Kung, who teaches in London (Hammersmith). Thanks to everyone who cared to reply to my question, keep them comming. I am still keen to hear from others that have had the same experience with sticking hands in SPM.

[Steven T. Richards]

You couldn't have a finer teacher within the Chow-Gar Pai. Very knowledgeable and a true gentleman.
If I can be of any further help please feel free to ask.

Kindest Regards,

Steve Richards.

[Hungmei]

Well Steve, you made short work of Fukien's attempt to enter a discussion he was clueless about, as usual.

I think even a mere idiot would have some inkling of Socrates' background, or would do a bit a research prior to posting. Guess that makes Fukien a "rare breed of idiot" and therefore, famous in some sense of the word :)

His continuing display of total ignorance across a broad array of subjects is truly impressive. Equally impressive is his willingness to engage in public demonstrations of incomparable stupidity. Amazing :)


I believe we should endeavor to keep the delusional little guy around. He serves not only as an object lesson for the newbies on how "not to be" but he also provides some degree of comic relief. We really should keep him as the designated Court Jester :) John

[David]

Anand,

The Chi Sau you're practising is more commonly called "Grinding Arm" and I'm sure you know why by now. "Crossing hands" is usually a euphemism for fighting. Ip Sifu isn't renowned for his commnd of English so there is potential for "crossing wires" in the translation and explanation. No big deal.

Chow Gar chi sau will work your bridge and stance.
It is for power in that, as you learn, you get stronger the power used will be ramped up.
It is for technique in that elbow and wrist coordination are worked.
It is for stamina (or "lasting power" as Ip Sifu calls it) in that you just go on and on and on.
It is for sensitivity in that your moderate your own force vectors according to your partner, never letting his/her force unbalance you.
It is for your stance in that you need to optimise your stance and strengthen it for maximum effectiveness in contact with an opponent.

There's more but I have stuff to do ;)

The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
-- Hong Kong Phooey

[Anand Paul]

David,

I belive the exercise you are refering to is Chy Sao. Used to build the mantis bridge and to test the stance for the use with power and has a subtle sticking hand training to it. What I saw in class was sticking hand using mantis techniques (i.e. Sai Sao and Dao Sao etc). Both senior students were using simultanious attack and defense techniques whilst always mantaining wrist, forearm or hand contact, similar to that found in Wing Chun Chi Sao. Back to my original question, is this appart of the SPM system or an additional sensitivity training exercise? Or has anyone else experience or seen anything like this in their SPM school?
- Anand

[David]

The thing you're talking about there I don't know the name of but I think we do practise it. Do you mean this? :-

1. A low palm launched.
2. It is blocked by dow sao which turns into a high pok sao palm strike.
3. This is repelled by got sao slicing hand which turns into another low palm strike.
4. Only to be countered by saw sao chicken wing which turns into move "1." (low palm attack). At this point the roles have become reversed. Continue ad infinitum.

This exercise gets very fast and fluid and lots of power can be added. It is great for sensitivity and development of the techniques involved.

Re-reading your original post I think I'm wrong again. You saw them doing something that looked like Wing Chun chi sao? All floppy and then BAM?

Have you asked them yet hehe? :confused:

The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
-- Hong Kong Phooey

[Anand Paul]

Yes I did ask, it is simply reffered to as crossing hands. Both students ate kept at a distence by keeping a pole between them, as the mantis practitioners first instinct is to advance on the opponent and break their defense barrier and then to strike within a split second. This way you dont run out of training partners!. both practitioners mantain wrist contact and instictivly attack and defend against each other.

[Andrew]

Strikes me this is one of the training contacts.
As a general rule. Each form has a training
drill. The one you describe is the first training
drill. The drill can be trained in several formats,
it can be trained in a 'hard' format as in a
tensioning/resisting exercise, or 'softly' as
a sensitivity exercise, or 'explosivily' as
a shock power exercise, or finally as a
precursor to crossing hands.

The way its trained is usually determined by the
length you've trained and also on what needs
to be trained.

Andrew

[mantis-1]

The two students you saw was crossing hands...sifu wanted some of the more senior students to practice something that was not Choreographed or a training drill, basically using all the tecniques learned in class in a more realistic situation.

[David]

Oh that! The pole or chair or whatever is in the way is to prevent the students getting too close. It's sparring at a distance.

The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
-- Hong Kong Phooey

[fgxpanzerz]

It is a different form of chi sao. That's all it iz! god! All u are doing is rolling differently than you are in Wing chun, for example.

[mantis-1]

Do you class chi sao as crossing hands in wing chun? If so then yes I agree. If it isn't and is just a training drill then no it wasn't chi sao (I ask this because I have no experience in wing chun). Most schools practice sparring, southern mantis schools do too. But the system is agressive and it is easy to get carried away when sparing hence the pole was used to keep distance between the two people.