What do you think?

[Leimeng]

~ I Came across this school a while ago and thought I would share it with you all for general amusement and knowledge. Let me know what you all think.

www.ravenhill.com


Peace,

Sin Loi

Yi Beng, Kan Xue

[HuangKaiVun]

Sounds neat.

I might go pay them a visit in person.

[Crimson Phoenix]

sounds fake...the style, that is...wind fist "a shaolin animal dragon style with 8 animals"??
But well, we can't and shouldn't judge just from a website...

[HuangKaiVun]

My thing is that I always test a guy's hands before calling his style "fake".

Those "fake" guys just might be hardened and battletested fighters. I know quite a few guys who could be called "fake" who can really fight.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Huang, I agree, and that's what I meant in my last sentence...however, what about if I knew very skilled fighters who had no martial training (and I do, no martial training AT ALL, didn't even try once, yet very good), who one day decided to open a kung fu school and came up with a completely made up style? Would the fact that they are good fighters make the style legit? NO.
I'm not saying their style is not legit, I'm not saying that what they teach is bad or useless, I'm just saying that on the sole examination of their page their style seems a FAKE CMA.
Maybe they can make you good fighters (and that's the most important thing after all), but whatever happens, the style they advertise seem quite fishy to me.
I will stand corrected and apologize if the style is legit and my judgement of it is wrong just because of my lack of knowledge...but I never heard of such a style...doesn't even ring a far bell...

[guohuen]

I'm still mulling over secret society and sashes. I have heard of village styles that include monkey and eagle, but not included with the five animals as part of a set.

[Brad]

lol, part of their basic set is called "Wind Breaker" :D

[Felipe Bido]

WTF??? Pics???

[HuangKaiVun]

I completely DISAGREE, Crimson Phoenix.

If a guy makes up his own "kung fu style" and can kick butt, I can't think of anything that makes it MORE legitimate.

All the styles in existence today came from somewhere. Some guy way back then was smart enough to codify fighting principles and put them together. Every "legitimate" style today was once "illegitimate", by your definition.

It's one thing if I say I'm practicing "Tan Tui" and then do "Taekyouku Shodan", but it's something else entirely when a guy makes up his style and doesn't assume anybody else's identity. The latter is exactly what the guys in the website did - and what I myself am doing in my style.

"Fake?" What's "fake?" If it kicks butt, how CAN it be fake? Maybe from a lineage standpoint yes, but a punch that connects is all too real. This school, from the looks of their forms, has stuff that really works in combat. To what extent? Well, that's why I'll pay them a respectful visit one day.

In kung fu, the only true legitimacy is EFFICACY - be it combat or forms or otherwise. Lineage is the LEAST of it.

[Crimson Phoenix]

you can kick butt with karate will it give you the right to call it kung fu? You can kick butt with capoeira, will it give you the right to call it kung fu? I wasn't bad at savate before trying any CMA...say I had just came up with some animal stuff, even without ever having learnt any animal style, just doing some mimics and postures and shi@t. But still I can kick butt for whatever reason (good boxing? natural fighter? whatever), would it make my phony animal style legit CMA? NO NO AND NO.
Don't mistake good kung fu and legit kung fu. You are right in saying that one day, any creator was necessarily traveling out of the accepted paths. But they didn't do it for money...they didn't come up with animal styles because they thought it was cool or that it would sell...they did it because in their minds, animal spirit was an asset to acquire while fighting. CMA are deeply rooted in the chinese mind, whether we like it or not. Theey gave all these poetic or metaphoric names to their styles because it is the way chinese mind works/worked, not because they thought it sounded cool, mysterious or that it would eventually sell (hell, who would have come with golden centipede style for these reasons anyway?).
I'm not speaking about that particular guy and school here, I'm not denying that they can very well be very good fighters, and that a respectful visit is deserved. If you are a good fighter and fighting instructor, FINE. But why invent phony stuffs? Commercial stuffs that smell like big $$? Secret societies? Animal styles? I'm sorry, but that sells...in the site, there's no lineage, nothing...what I don't like about it is that relent of commercialism, trying to appeal too much...higher forms restricted to dragon society members, and esoteric things like that...secret sells. I'm not saying that they are not good fighters or martial artists...but WHY the hell if you create your style, why not plainly saying: it's my style...I created it....I kick butt and can make you kick butt...instead of wrapping it up with some chinese esoteric and pseudo-philosophic stuff? It appears dishonest to me, it is mystification. If you are a good instructor, people will eventually flock to you, no need to attract them with fantasies of secret forms and hidden societies with a taste of China.
There's kung fu, and then there's good fighters. I'm sorry, but being a good fighter doesn't for me legitimate a style. Just like bad fighters in a style do not cast dishonor on it.
If he trained TCMA for years, legit TCMA styles, then by this mean acquired fighting skills and one day decide to build upon these roots to create a style, then it will be acceptable. If he is just a good fighter who done boxing/streetfights/whatever and 1-2 years of gong fu and invents something while at the same time sprinkling some good selling chinese mystery and fantasies then it will never be a legit CMA, whatever good at fighting he can be.

[Nick Lo]

*in snooty british accent*
BY GEORGE, I THINK HE'S GOT IT!

Quick, I better go before I soil my shorts.

[HuangKaiVun]

Yes, get on the toilet Nick Lo.

Peeing and crapping in your pants is a very bad idea, especially for somebody as old as you are.

Still want to fight me, boy?


Crimson Phoenix, you don't understand that the word "kung fu" means "excellence" in Chinese and NOT "Chinese martial art".

For your information, there is nothing wrong about doing kung fu for $$$. Many masters in history did it and were very successful at it. In fact, likely the guy you're learning kung fu from has the exact same motive!

Forget not that karate originated in Fujian province, from White Crane and Ngo Cho kun. It most DEFINITELY fits under the "kung fu" category, ESPECIALLY from a Chinese kung fu perspective and even has the same sets and moves. The Bubishi, the Bible of Japanese karate, is actually a CHINESE textbook of medicine and kung fu. "Shorinji Kempo" = "Shaolin Chuan Fa" in translation.

Or, how about General Yueh Fei calling his style "Eagle Claw"? If he didn't do it because he made up the style and it sounded cool, why did he do it? Would you call Yueh Fei a fake because he made up his own style and gave it a strange name.


"If he is just a good fighter who done boxing/streetfights/whatever and 1-2 years of gong fu and invents something while at the same time sprinkling some good selling chinese mystery and fantasies then it will never be a legit CMA, whatever good at fighting he can be."

- you just described BRUCE LEE!

[Fu-Pow]

Even if the dude that opened this school is a "natural," how could he teach you what he knows? He doesn't even know how he does it, he just does it. The cool thing about TMA's is that they are systematic progression to bring someone with no fighting skill up to the level of at least a decent fighter. This school might get you in shape, bring up your level of fitness, give you self-confidence, etc. but ultimately he has very few skills to teach and no systematic progression to teach them in. This is the problem I see with places like Shaolin-Do, Chung Moo Do, etc.

[Crimson Phoenix]

I'm using "kung fu" instead of guo shu or wushu or whatever because it's convenient and everyone will know at once what we are talking about...in other words, I'm aware it doesn't mean CMA.
Nothing wrong with doing CMA for money, bills have to be paid. You miss my point: I have a problem with guys using any chinese flavor to boost up the commercial attractiveness of what they do in a dishonest way. Sprinkling chinese concepts and names in a method created out of the roots of CMA is dishonest to me (once again, I'm not talking about the windfist school, I'm talking generally).
The stuff about karate...well, Okinawan indigenous methods existed in the island and got refined with the chinese influence, not created from them. As for all your infos on the bubishi and all, I'm aware of that too...I should then call karate a CMA then, if I take your word too tightly?

About Yue Fei, well, the motivations for calling the style eagle claw are clear, and reflect the functionality of the style...it's not dubbed, I guess, eagle claw because eagle is a cool animal, but rather because the creator wanted to emphasis the aspect of powerful grasps and holds, rushing on your opponent like the eagle on its prey, having its mindset..."horse horse tiger tiger" could mean, in chinese, something like "fishy, weird"...it sounds rather strange for a western mind...the same way, maybe some western guy could come up with "black sky dragon" as a name style because it sounds cool to him...if a chinese had done that in the past, it would be for far better reasons in regards to his style than just a cool name.
Uhhhh...you really believe Yue Fei created eagle claw? Anyway...

I just described Bruce Lee?? Your last comment shows that you miss my point entirely: B. Lee never claimed to have created a new CMA style...he emphasized everytime he could that it was HIS method, what HE came up with, after pondering his vision of combat...he stayed honest, he didn't try to pass it off as some sescret and ancestral chinese art to a public who, at that time, would have believed it without any problem.
He had an honest behavior with his JKD. He never tried to invent things like "This style is a secret art taught in Chinese secret societies for centuries, that no chinese master before me would have taught to westerner" and lies of that type.

[HuangKaiVun]

By the way Crimson Phoenix, thank you for making this a very INTERESTING topic.

I'm having fun with this, and I hope you are too.


You don't realize how LITTLE $70/month is in America.

That's not kung fu for profit. Not that there's anything wrong with inventing a kung fu style for $$$, but these guys are DEFINITELY not making a ton of money doing this stuff. You can make the argument that they're doing this for money if you wish, but simple American economics dictate that they're probably not making a much of a profit off this. They even SAY that they don't want to be corrupted by money (unlike me :D)

In short, anybody who thinks that these guys are out to make a quick buck are WRONG - and any sane American accountant will back me up on this.

Not only that, their secret society (not that they made any claims to secrecy) is a simple club membership that is granted by paying one's $60 - a pittance by US kung fu charging standards. That's far less hard to get into than Bruce Lee's "secret society", which consisted of a school in which rigid application standards were held and enforced. Let's not talk about modern day kung fu schools and their "advanced classes" - that's too much secrecy for you to handle.

I, as a trained kung fu AND karate man, DO call karate a "kung fu". It's not necessarily Chinese in nationality, but it has an extremely strong Chinese influence. Even so, I call karate "Japanese kung fu" just as I call capoeira "Brazilian kung fu" or savate "French kung fu". In both karate and savate's case, they have EXTREMELY strong roots to Chinese kung fu. And they all kick butt, which alone makes it legitimate "kung fu".

Karate's Bubishi features Chinese medicine, Chinese philosophy, Chinese people, Chinese quan, and Chinese authors. You mean to tell me that all of that ISN'T Chinese kung fu? If it isn't, where did it come from to begin with?

So Crimson Phoenix, what are you going to do about Wing Chun? That style was purportedly created by Tan Sau Ng of the Red Junks, not Wing Chun. Both Yip Man and Pan Nam are documented in saying that the Shaolin-Wing Chun-Ng Mui story is COMPLETELY MADE UP because it sounded cool ($$$). Are you going to now say that Wing Chun is fake or should change its name? At least the Wind Fist school didn't attach a fictional story to it's style, huh?

Bruce Lee never claimed to have created a new CMA? Then who created "Jeet Kune Do"? If you feel "sprinkling chinese concepts and names in a method created out of the roots of CMA is dishonest", then you must feel that Bruce Lee is the most dishonest CMArtist there is. After all, the "Jeet Kune" set is an Eagle Claw set. He stole that name and stuck it on his style!

Not only that, Bruce Lee was challenged in his own school by Wong Jak Man for daring to teach "secret kung fu" to Westerners. That's not a "lie" as you'd call it, it's a TRUTH. In the 60s, Chinese folks deliberately kept their kung fu secret from Westerners because they didn't want the white man turning on them with their learned Chinese techniques.

Thus you see that Bruce Lee's "honest behavior" consists of teaching a "secret art taught in Chinese secret societies for centuries, that no chinese master before me would have taught to westerner."

If you want to talk about cool names, then are you going to pick apart the "8 Drunken Immortals" style? That style imitates "immortals" that are "drunk". When's the last time YOU saw a drunken immortal, Crimson Phoenix?

I may not know about Yue Fei, but I'm not convinced YOU do either. Can you convince ME otherwise?


Does anybody here want to go to Tucson AZ (not the cushiest section of town, from what I've heard) and tell these guys in person that their style is fake?

My advice is, guys, DON'T DO IT. You'll get beaten up - BADLY.

[Walter Joyce]

Perhaps you might want to visit this website for another account of the mythical encounter between Wong Jack Man and Mr. Lee.

http://www.lakungfu.com/sifujackmanwong.html

And while you're at it, you might want to explain how something can appear "flowery" when it is static?

You don't make a lot of sense to me.

Btw, if you want to get rich quick, there are a lot better and faster ways than teaching martial arts.

There are at least two sides to everything.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Huang, I'm not particularly having fun...actually, I am beginning to think that discussing this topic for such a long time is quite useless...
No personal beef towards you, I want to state it, it's just that we are two stubborn beasts who obviouslt won't change their minds so...

I do not criticize these guys...their example made me think about the whole issue in general, I won't judge them on their sole website. I apologize if my opinion hurts feelings, but I'm sorry, it takes more than forming good fighters to be a legit CMA.

As for "french kung fu" and "brazilian kung fu", I agree, since we both are aware kung fu doesn't really mean chinese fighting arts...you're playing on words, or ignore on purpose that I stated using kung fu for convenience more than linguistic accuracy. You are right about savate and karate roots linking to kung fu...it's quite surprising for savate indeed, even though sometimes you really feel it...but I'd never call savate a CMA...I'd be flamed by both the french and the chinese LOL

Regarding advanced classes, well, there's a difference between fantasies of secrets and just not showing everything to everyone...
Also, about secret techniques, it's not necessarily a matter of chinese not wanting to expose their secrets to westerners...evene chinese were conned in believing fantasies during the boxer's rebellion...dishonesty is everywhere, or I should rather speak about mystification as it suits martial arts better.

Wing Chun, well, I guess it wasn't created out of nowhere? Surely, it was created with CMA roots, no? It wasn't created from Korean roots, or Swedish or Argentinian roots...
And regarding its creation, well, I keep Kang Ge Wu's work in mind. You should also check his work for Yue Fei's so called creation of eagle claw, maybe HE will convince you...

The chinese elements in JKD are easily explained: B. Lee was chinese, wasn't he? You can't take China out of a chinese, no matter how hard you try.

I personally never seen any immortal, neither sober nor drunk...and neither did the creators of this style...your point is rather...pointless...have you ever seen dragons? Iron palms? Long fists? cats doing cat stances? Need I continue? No, you haven't...it's all metaphorical/allegoric and/or deeply linked to the way chinese language and mind work...the guy who came up with 8 drunken immortals obviously thought his kung fu ressembled the behaviors of the famous immortals...

As for going to Tucson and getting beat up...
If they have a fake style history (disclaimer: nothing on the webpage enables to say it, it's just an example) and I go and tell them "Mr, your style looks good, but it your history is fake" and they beat my ass up good...will it make their history magically legit? No...
Will it mean my own style is useless? Neither...

[Nick Lo]

huang/wong/wrong

I wasn't talking about excrement, but I guess any sexual connotation automatically implies defecation to you, huh golden shower boy?

I got better things to do than to prove my machismo over the net, or fly thousands of miles for bragging rights.

Although I do find it interesting that you put these frauds automatically above a legitimately trained guy who's paid his dues.

Must imply your true inner feelings about traditional ma huh?

And maybe shed some light on why you've decided to wh0re your non- existent, non- earned skills out for money right?

And of course the fact that these frauds aren't making much money justifies everything, right? :rolleyes:

Let's just take a second to review:

1. They charge $70 a month with a club fee of $60...

2. Fraud schools work better at marketing and babying along cash cow students. As a result their enrollment tends to be about double normal.

4. Your average legit school usually enrolls anywhere from 10 to 30 people. For the sake of argument, let's put these guys at 40.

5. (40 x 70 = 2,800) + (at least 40 x 60 club fee = 2,400)... that's 36,000 years for being unqualified labor.

6. I'd be pretty mad at someone making that much off of me without proper training... imagine a doctor making 36k a year without a license, arbitrarily operating and treating as it suited him?


Plus, your analogy of bruce was f*cked.

For starters he didn't want JKD to be a style, let alone a style of kung fu, which is why he stopped calling it jun fan gung fu.

And if you knew anything about him and the blood that ran through his veins, you'd know another reason he wouldn't wanna be part of the trad kung fu establishment.


On TOP of that, you totally screwed up about Wong Jack Man. It was BRUCE who was mouthing off that he could beat anyone in San Fran, WJM just responded. Not to mention the fact that WJM'd already had occidental students by then.

You can't even get the facts straight for one of your heroes; I can imagine what your transmission of kung fu is like. :rolleyes:

Of course I'm disregarding your earlier statement that Bruce wasn't any "big thing", saying other chinese (implying you) could do the same stuff easy.

Funny how you flip flop.... bash a guy for your own self agrandizement and then proceed to present him as some shining example in order to justify your own weak argument. Lame....


Yeah, and then you bring up Okinawans. The Okinawans taught the Japanese, and the teachings were modified to fit Japanese mentality and medical science. This led to what eventually became mainstream japanese karate.

Yeah, some old Okinawan senseis practise a closer version to what their ancestors were taught, but some of the transmission was lost; or never picked up in the first place.

There are certain differences in practise that cannot be reconciled.


The argument is more about "who has the right to claim that they are a traditional martial art".
We're just syaing that it's NOT the guys who make stuff up; then insert a bunch of mysticism and unrelated, offbase theory; and call it tcma. That is, we are bashing people who pretend to be something they are not. *nudge nudge*


And one last thing....
kung fu translates skill and time spent...
In essence it's an ability you gain from busting yer a$$ consistently...

In this sense, it's being used in place of "traditional chinese martial arts" because that's what the general public recognizes it as, even in the chinese language.

If you're going to criticize his ability to translate it, at least do a half decent job yourself.


Keep diggin there Huang, you haven't hit six feet yet.



Crimson

Funny how he switches the topic to fighting me anytime the conversation gets heavy.

He must get stressed out from the attacks, and start dreaming of getting hot n sweaty with me to relieve that stress.

I'm starting to wonder if it's worth it to waste time trying to talk logic to someone who learns a little from videos, makes up some elaborate, fraudulant story, and preys on innocent newbies for money and to make himself feel good. Taking small man's complex to an extreme.

[HuangKaiVun]

If you come to Arizona, Nick Lo, you'll have TWO schools to beat down - this one and my own.

I want to see your "legitimate" fu in action against my "fraud" fu.

[Nick Lo]

I never said I had any kung fu with which to speak as an authority from....but then neither do you... and that's my whole point...

So now your h0m0er0tic fantasies have me s1utting around all over the state of Arizona?

Getting all hot and sweaty with 2 schools now instead of just you?

Man you got some weird wet dreams.

[HuangKaiVun]

Wet - as in bloody.

I'm going out to Hawaii to fight you.


Crimson Phoenix, I think you simply need to TRAIN kung fu.

You'll see that just because you can't handle something doesn't mean that it doesn't work or isn't "kung fu".

You'll also learn that the literal translation of "kung fu" does mean "Chinese martial art". It simply means "excellence".

[Crimson Phoenix]

Kung fu cha does mean the fighting art of the teapot then?
I'm sorry, all my chinese teachers (be they in martial arts or tea) told me that kung fu doesn't mean specifically chinese martial arts. Go argue with them, and tell them they don't know Chinese.

I think being heated by Nick's comments made you lose 1) courtesy and 2) sense.
I didn't attack you or criticize you, we were having a discussion so far, you don't know me, you don't know a shi@t about how I train and fight, and yet you tell me without any good reason that I need to TRAIN kung fu.
Do you get into personal attacks everytime you can't handle a diverging opinion?
Somehow I feel that it's easy to talk wude, it's harder to be wude.

I quote you: "You'll see that just because you can't handle something doesn't mean that it doesn't work or isn't "kung fu". Please explain me what the hell it has to do with the present topic? What can't I handle? And even better, what do you base this rather intriguing and out-of-nowhere comment on?

Huang, I really hope that Nick got on your mind and that's why you entered blind defense mode.
If not, well...you lost all credibility as a poster to me. Not that you should care...but I personally never like it when someone I had respect for falls in such a disgrace :(

[HuangKaiVun]

No, you are right Crimson Phoenix.

I mistyped the "doesn't" as "does.

I stand corrected. Thanks for reminding me.


However, I pointed out that you don't know your kung fu because you cannot handle the fact that a style that kicks butt IS kung fu.

Any REAL fighter who's been in a scrape knows that if a style works, it is legitimate "kung fu" 100%. And that's what this discussion is all about.

Those techniques that you do - likely other guys do them too. In fact, this school does a lot of the same stuff I do. I've USED that stuff in combat, and I will again.

Respect those who DO kung fu, Crimson Phoenix. Just because you think it's fake doesn't mean that it isn't "legitimate".

As I said, test their hands. You'll find out - the hard way.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Huang, first, thanks for the return to a good discussion.
It doesn't matter if you think I don't know my kung fu or not...it is just ironic that you make the same mistake you are attacking me for: judging without touching hands. Besides, I won't change the POV I exposed lenghtly here, legitimacy is more and less than combat at the same time. As sure as lineage legitimacy is not a sure cause of combat efficiency, to me similarly combat efficiency isn't a sure cause of "historical" legitimacy...I won't change my mind on that, none of us two will...I agree with you that technically any good fighting art is good kung fu. But not necessarily legit TCMA. The same way all squares are rectangle but not all rectangles are squares, CMA are all fighting arts (fighting kung fu), but not all fighting kung fu are CMA. It's just a linguistic thing, since we now both agree that as you said, one meaning of kung fu is excellence (in any field) and not precisely in the field of combat. Then, still linguistically-wise a fighting kung fu can be legitimate without having any links with CMA, I agree, and in this case the legitimacy of a fighting kung fu is directly inherited from fighting efficiency. It seems we both argued for hours because I take kung fu as the convenient way to say CMA in particular, whether you (more linguistically accurately, I acknowledge) use kung fu for "high skills gained through time and efforts".

Still, I do have the impression that you think I directly judge the school on the website as bad, and it bothers you. Soooo...May I quote nearly all my posts so far?
Here I go:

"I'm not speaking about that particular guy and school here, I'm not denying that they can very well be very good fighters, and that a respectful visit is deserved"

"I do not criticize these guys...their example made me think about the whole issue in general, I won't judge them on their sole website"

And my very first reply to this topic: "But well, we can't and shouldn't judge just from a website..."

And there are others...When I said fake, I always said it SEEMS fake (there's a big difference with it IS fake) on the sole examination of their website. I quote yet another of my post: "I'm not saying their style is not legit, I'm not saying that what they teach is bad or useless, I'm just saying that on the sole examination of their page their style seems a FAKE CMA".

And I won't back up from this: their style seems made up when you judge the page. Period, I'm not saying anything more, neither less...I even said, and I state it again, that if someone tells me "you're a ****, Phoenix, Wind fist was created by that man in the x century, who studied under that man, who learnt this other style from x" etc... I will apologize. But judging by the webpage only, it just seems windfist was created not too long ago by someone who made up his own style from the MA he learnt.

Okie, time for confessions, Huang...you seem to get very personal when we speak about that school...you are not the "white-knight-saving-every-princess-from-the-bad-dragon" type usually...how come on this particular issue you get so involved, whereas countless other schools were bashed 1000000 times harder without you even raising an eyebrow? Do you personally know the guy? Or maybe it's where you come from? Or is it your school? just very curious...

As for my capacities/credentials/experience as a fighter, you know none of it. You don't know who can kick my ass and how, and who won't and why.
So why bother commenting on it?
You seem very fond of speaking about REAL fighters...as one, you must know that you can't evaluate a guy's experience of combat by what he says or the impression he gives you...especially on a public net forum...don't you?
;)

[Dwhomp]

He's got big balls...

She's got big balls...

They've got big balls....

But we have the biggest.....balls of them all!

[Kristoffer]

Oh Shaddap! :mad: Who cares what's fake god ****it!? Shut the **** up *****es!

[Brad]

lol @ Kristoffer :D

[CD Lee]

Yeah...what he said!!!!!!!!!!!

I was going to weigh in on this, but it looks like this turned into one of those little fights my 4 and 6 yr. old kids are having in the other room. Think I'll wait for calm water.

[pitbull]

hello...

im saddened by the fact that kung fu is being commercialized so much...

PS: kung fu...person glorified through way of skill/actions/work...u can call a successful merchant kung fu

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

My former long time mentor, G'master Chan Pui, says Gung Fu means "hard work".. i think we can safely assume he is Chinese, and he practices "hard work", and expects it from his students..

As for the the rest of this, it is sadly comical..

Be well..

[pitbull]

kung <- work/skill

fu <- man...male to be specific :-)

im hou wen rong...i was born in fujien china,si ong ke county :-) now i live in the philippines....

[Knifefighter]

"That, says Wong, is why he failed to deliver a devastating right-hand blow on
any of the three occasions he had Lee’s head locked under his left arm.
Instead, he says, he released his opponent each time, only to have an even
more enraged Bruce Lee press on with his furious attack."

Ah, the infamous headlock… the mark of an inexperienced neophyte.



"Some people say Bruce Lee beat up Jack Man bad," note Lum. "But if he had,
the man would not have been to work the next day." By Lum’s assessment, the
fact that neither man suffered serious injury in a no-holds-barred battle
indicates that both were "very, very good."

Or, maybe neither one was very good.



Now death has rendered the man forever silent. And the question of whether
Wong presented Lee, who is considered by many to have been the world’s top
martial artist, with the only defeat of his adult life will remain, among
those concerned about such matters, forever a controversial one ."

I think Gene LeBelle would beg to differ regarding that.

[BAI HE]

"Lee, who is considered by many to have been the world’s top
martial artist,"

And exactly whom did he test himself against
to earn this "consideration"?