Dey Sat ?

[buddhapalm]

Here is a Chinese language/mythology question.

Does anyone know the exact meaning of Dey Sat, meaning something like Earth Demon, Earth Devil, Earth Goblin or Ground Goblin ?

This is Cantonese, and am not sure of the Mandarin pronounciation.

What is the significance of this mythical creature ?

In our system we have a set that also uses this name. I have seen the name used elsewhere in some other Kung Fu systems, but I forget where.

Any insight or mythological perspectives would be most appreciated.

Also could the name signify someones nickname, just as White Haired Devil signified Hung-Fut master Bak Mor Jui. Therefore the staff/hand style of Earth Goblin ***** so and so. Just another possiblity to throw in.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[mantis108]

Your question could be answered with more study on the Chinese culture and believe system. Here are some pieces that would help.

Dey Sart are Earth Demons/destroyers which are part of the 108 star constellations in Chinese astrology. There are 72 of these spirits. Their names are listed in a novel "Fung Shen Bong". Their manifestations are the star constallations. So in a sense, they are spirits of the stars or spirits that form the stars which is not unlike the concept in Greek mythology. Essentially, they are regarded as external and uncontrollable (by human standard) forces often cause mayhem with daily life. In certain cases or rather combinations, they cause the demise of matter or human.

Here's a theory on why 72 is associated with Earth?

Lao Tze in his Dao Te Ching mentioned that Dao gave birth to one. One gave birth to two. Two give birth to three and myriad of thing were born of three. Basically 0/1 - 2 - 3 - all things [re: 4]. What is of important is 1-2-3. We will come back to this "formula".

1+2+3=6
1x2x3=6

Six has the meaning of 6 harmonies (height axis, width axis and depth axis) which is basically the 3 dimensional space that human are capable of observing.

6x6=36

36x1=36 (Number for the realm of Heaven)
36x2=72 (Number for the realm of Earth)
36x3=108 (Number for the realm of Human)

This would be IMHO the simplest way to explain why the number is used. There is also a I Ching method via the use of 8 Trigrams to calculate this. The results are the same.

Hope this help

Mantis108

[buddhapalm]

Thanks so much Mantis108 :-)

What a coincidence, you mention the number 72 :-))))) The staff set in question in my system is called Dey Sat Kwun. This name is used by my Kung Fu Uncles and students of my Dai Sigung, the name we use from my Sifu and Sigung is Shaolin Secret/Private Pole (Siulum Bei Kwun). That's a little beside the point. The form has 72 movements in it and I heard that it was sometimes called Shaolin 72 Point/movement Pole also.

You said that there were 72 of these spirits ? Which spirits did you mean exactly...the Earth Demons/destroyer spirits, or spirits of the 108 stars in general. I would really love to know about their amount etc. I wonder what their individual names are ?

You mention the novel "Fung Shen Bong". Is it written in English ? what does it translate too.....Wind Spirit Society perhaps ? It sounds interesting.

I remember something in the Outlaws of the Marsh, with 108 heroes representing the 108 heavenly spirits/stars. Also the demons (72??) that were released by the king that started all of the trouble to begin with.

Your numerology explanation sounds very interesting and is also in the ballpark of what I am researching. As you imply 36, 72 and 108 may represent Heaven, Earth and Man. Well that boldly stands out as Tien Dey Yan ! May I ask what connections this numerology may have between Shaolin and TienDeyYan Wui ? This numerology certainly impies it in some coded way.

You mention the Six Harmonies. I have been acquanted with Luk Hap in the forms of Three Internal and Three External Harmonies.

Only one other time have I heard that the Six Harmonies implies the four cardinal directions plus up and down making six.

My next question is, do you think that some of the "Six Harmonies" styles/forms may be relating to this way of looking at 6 directions ? If so, is that because the movements of the style move in all directions, or because some connection to some esoteric sects or societies using this numerology ?

Lastly, do you have any information on the numerical significance of the number 54. I know it is 36 plus 18, but what could it mean ? I ask because I have many forms in my system with this count, as well as 72.

Sorry for so many questions and thanks again.

Cheers

Buddhapalm
teleka@pacbell.net

[mantis108]

Hi BuddhaPalm,

You are most welcome. Thanks for the interesting info on your style. :)

The novel is in a sense a tribute to the Chinese pantheon. So almost everything about Chinese mythology can be found in it. Some of the more popular as well as obscure deities, immortals or even demons etc... are included. So if you can read Chinese. You may be able to find a copy in China town. The title roughly translates into "Decoration (Fung) of Deities (Shen)". Bong is "a listing of". The premise of the novel was the war between Zhang dynasty and Zhou dynasty (11th century BCE). There was a massive lost of lives (mostly warriors). So Jiang Taigung (you know the famous Grand Duke who fished without hook) was appointed to decorate the deads so that their spirits might "rest" in peace. the 108 star constellations divided into 2 groups (36 + 72) were awarded to 108 spirits/souls of 108 dead warriors. So there are many more of these spirits. If you go to a Chinese store sometime you'll see a black face figure holding a steel whip and riding a black tiger. That's one of the deities mentioned in the novel. His name was General Zhao Gongming ( a powerful bad guy) but he was decorated as the God of martial prosperity. Anyway that's kind of off topic. :)

Water margin borrowed the names of the 108 star constellations which was kind of a fashion in writting novel.

The numerology is closely related to Chinese believe system if not the very same believe system. As you might be aware Chinese play with numbers alot. ;) Shaolin is Chinese Ch'an Buddhism. IT is as Chinese as it can be. Having said that 108 is not exclusive to Chinese believe system. Hinduism (parent religion of Buddhism) also have 108 as a tribute to the God Vishnu - the preserver.

Your first defination of Luk Hap/Liuhe is commonly used in internal martial arts. I believe the original meaning of Liuhe is the 4 direction plus up down [re: 3 dimensional space.]

The Liuhe style material that I know of (ie Liuhe 2 men staff) does involve moving/striking in all direction including leaping, dodging, etc...

Regarding the 54, I think it is 6 (old ying) x 9 (old yang). So it is a combination of old ying and old yang. Again the concept of expressing the ying/yang.

Hope this help

Regards

Mantis108

[buddhapalm]

Dear Mantis108,
Thanks again for your further explanation.

I will indeed try to find a translation of Fung Shen Bong. I am in San Francisco, so Chinatown's East Wind Books may have something in English. If it was ever translated.

Actually Jiang Taigung is one of my hero's in a sense. Or at least the sage I perhaps respect most. I love the story of the straight hook :-))) My Sifu would always tell it to me while I was growing up, later I read more about his philosophy in the Seven Military Classic's manual. Have you read that one, it has all of the military strategists manuals in one book from TaiKung to Tao Tao etc.

You mentioned:

"Regarding the 54, I think it is 6 (old ying) x 9 (old yang). So it is a combination of old ying and old yang. Again the concept of expressing the ying/yang. "

What exactly do you mean by old Yang and old Ying ? How old is that numerology system ? I think I had about 10 sets (mostly weapons) with that movement count in my QuanPo's. Also what could it possibly signify having the number 54 in the forms ?

Also regarding Yin and Yang, I have another staff set called Luk Hap Yin Yang Kwun (Six Harmony Yin Yang Pole). This set has 72 movements also. I am not sure it is from the same root as the Dey Sat Kwun yet.

Your answers have only aroused more questions :-)))

Cheers my friend,

Buddhapalm

[mantis108]

Hi BuddhaPalm,

"Thanks again for your further explanation. "

You are welcome, my friend. :)

"I will indeed try to find a translation of Fung Shen Bong. I am in San Francisco, so Chinatown's East Wind Books may have something in English. If it was ever translated."

Yeah, that's worth a try. I am not sure if there is an English edition though. :(

"Actually Jiang Taigung is one of my hero's in a sense. Or at least the sage I perhaps respect most. I love the story of the straight hook :-))) My Sifu would always tell it to me while I was growing up, later I read more about his philosophy in the Seven Military Classic's manual. Have you read that one, it has all of the military strategists manuals in one book from TaiKung to Tao Tao etc. "

Speaking of military classics, Chinese numerology is fully applicable (kind of like algebra). It makes no particalur sense to the uninitiated but once explained you will never look at numerology the same way. It is just some thing fun to work with.

"You mentioned:

"Regarding the 54, I think it is 6 (old ying) x 9 (old yang). So it is a combination of old ying and old yang. Again the concept of expressing the ying/yang. "

What exactly do you mean by old Yang and old Ying ? How old is that numerology system ? I think I had about 10 sets (mostly weapons) with that movement count in my QuanPo's. Also what could it possibly signify having the number 54 in the forms ? "

In I Ching (dated back to prehistoric time in China) there existed one of the oldest numerology systems. So we are talking very old. However the old Ying old Yang designation is definitely much younger (might be spring & autume period). ;)

I Ching numerology designations:

1 = Tai Yang 2= Sui Ying 3=Sui Yang 4=Tai Ying
6 = Old Ying 7= Sui Yang 8=Sui Ying 9=old Yang

For the significance in the forms, you will have to check with your teachers. Every style has its own idea on how a form should be constructed. For example, traditional northern mantis has 4 roads (each about 10-12 moves) in each form. That makes about 40 some moves. Is there a meaning? We don't exactly know but it definitely helps to see the structure of the form and the uniformness of the system. I am not sure if my threoy about the 54 moves applies to your system. So your best bet is to check with your elders. By doing the checking you will benefit from becoming more involve with your system.

"Also regarding Yin and Yang, I have another staff set called Luk Hap Yin Yang Kwun (Six Harmony Yin Yang Pole). This set has 72 movements also. I am not sure it is from the same root as the Dey Sat Kwun yet. "

I see. Thanks for the interesting info. :)

Your answers have only aroused more questions :-)))

You have very interesting questions which are great discussion piece, my friend.

Regards

Mantis108

[r.(shaolin)]

The 108 as it is specifically associated with

[buddhapalm]

Mantis108 and r.(shaolin),

Thanks again.

Mantis108,
I will look much more into the numerology, also how it is interpreted into Military Strategy. Thats a new one to me.

You elucidated:

"1 = Tai Yang 2= Sui Ying 3=Sui Yang 4=Tai Ying
6 = Old Ying 7= Sui Yang 8=Sui Ying 9=old Yang "

What exactly is Tai Yang, Tai Ying, Sui Yang, Sui Ying, Old Yang and Old Ying ? If it is complicated to explain, then perhaps you can refer me to some good books, web sites, etc that I could research.

I would love to find out from my elders more, but there is a problem. My Sifu passed away exactly 10 years ago, his Sifu passed away exactly 20 years ago, my Dai Sigung passed away 2 years ago overseas and his students and Son have different forms listings except for 3 of them. That is Ba Kwa Dao, Dey Sat Kwun and Duan Da. The rest are all different. I am at a loss as to where the remaining forms in my system come from, they may all have come from my Great Grand Master, or they may have been brought in by my Grandmaster. Presently there is no-one alive that I know that can give me the answer. If I had started my research over 2 years ago I could have asked my Great Grand Master, but now it is too late.

I have tried desperately to compare forms and names from other systems, but so far I cannot say where most of my forms come from. I am guessing they are Mizong Quan or rare Lohan Quan forms, but I lean more to MizongQuan. I thought that by finding out the meaning of the numerology or the forms names then I may be able to get more clues as to their source. Now I am basically lost in the woods waiting for more clues to show up :-)

You said:
"You have very interesting questions which are great discussion piece, my friend."

Well my friend there is no better discussion than discussing Martial Arts history and theory over Turkish coffee on your next visit to San Francisco.

r.(shaolin),
Thats intersting about the rosaries. I can't remember, but I was looking into numerology and ancient calenders one day, and if I can remember correctly, I think I saw the number 108 in an ancient calender in Inca/Aztec culture. I may be very wrong, and I will try to look at the web page again if I can find it. Now here is a crazy thought.....could the rosary have been at one time related to the calendar ? Perhaps a way of telling the date, then transformed into some religious tool (chanting/mantra etc) Just a crazy thought, and you know me I have lots of them :-)))

Thanks everybody for the insights and information.

Within the four seas all men are brothers.

Buddhapalm

[r.(shaolin)]

as a postscript to the above.

In the example code numbers: 426

[Lisa]

"The 'mala' that is the Buddhist 'rosary' has 108 beads as did the Indian Buddhist 'rosary.'"

I could be wrong, but I believe the Catholic rosary has 108 as well.

Edit: nevermind... I think I'm wrong on that one:)

[mantis108]

Hi BuddhaPalm,

<<<Mantis108,
I will look much more into the numerology, also how it is interpreted into Military Strategy. Thats a new one to me. >>>

Well, you might have heard of Han dynasty strategist Cheung Leung? I believe he had a military classic or classic that is accredit to him. It is said that he acquired a mystical scroll that is called "Kei Moon Dun Garp" which is in a way numerology (algebra type) military strategy book filled with different forumlas or play [like the playbook of an American football coach. ;)] BTW, that scroll (may be a make up version of it) is now commonly used in divination. Coincidentally, there were 108 of these forumlas but Cheung Leung (?) condensed it into 18 which make use of the 9 palaces magic square. Anyway, it's a bit off topic. Fun stuff though. :)

<<<You elucidated:

"1 = Tai Yang 2= Sui Ying 3=Sui Yang 4=Tai Ying
6 = Old Ying 7= Sui Yang 8=Sui Ying 9=old Yang "

What exactly is Tai Yang, Tai Ying, Sui Yang, Sui Ying, Old Yang and Old Ying ? If it is complicated to explain, then perhaps you can refer me to some good books, web sites, etc that I could research. >>>

I can give you a brief explanation. For an indepth one, you will have to look into I Ching. Basically, all the odd numbers are Yang and even numbers are Ying. Tai means grand or extreme which is kind of a state of purity. Sui means junior or moderate. Lao is old that is used to designate the matured Tai. Lao is Tai (Yang or Ying) adding 5. Lao becomes Tai again if we subtract 5 from it. The concept here is that you need to train to understand the organic and holistic worldview of I Ching starting with the numbers.

<<<I would love to find out from my elders more, but there is a problem. My Sifu passed away exactly 10 years ago, his Sifu passed away exactly 20 years ago, my Dai Sigung passed away 2 years ago overseas and his students and Son have different forms listings except for 3 of them. That is Ba Kwa Dao, Dey Sat Kwun and Duan Da. The rest are all different. I am at a loss as to where the remaining forms in my system come from, they may all have come from my Great Grand Master, or they may have been brought in by my Grandmaster. Presently there is no-one alive that I know that can give me the answer. If I had started my research over 2 years ago I could have asked my Great Grand Master, but now it is too late. >>>

Having lost some of my Grand teachers and teachers in their "winter", I understand how you feel. We only miss what we have lost when the lost is forever. Hope you will be able to find what you are looking for someday. :)

<<<I have tried desperately to compare forms and names from other systems, but so far I cannot say where most of my forms come from. I am guessing they are Mizong Quan or rare Lohan Quan forms, but I lean more to MizongQuan. I thought that by finding out the meaning of the numerology or the forms names then I may be able to get more clues as to their source. Now I am basically lost in the woods waiting for more clues to show up :-) >>>

Keep looking. Internet is a power tool. You might eventually find it through the net.

<<<You said:
"You have very interesting questions which are great discussion piece, my friend."

Well my friend there is no better discussion than discussing Martial Arts history and theory over Turkish coffee on your next visit to San Francisco. >>>

Turkish coffee sounds wonderful. I'd love to meet for coffee some day. Thanks. :)

Regards

Mantis108

[Lau]

"Coincidentally, there were 108 of these forumlas but Cheung Leung (?) condensed it into 18 which make use of the 9 palaces magic square. Anyway, it's a bit off topic. Fun stuff though. "

Hi Mantis108, How are you? Fun stuff indeed, Especially because it comes back in a lot of different styles (but the styles may have the same source). But it also makes you wonder. In Pak Mei there is 9 step push and 18 mor kiu, but then it stops. Why? Has there been more after that building on the numberology, but is it lost? Wasn't there more and has something else been added later? 9 step, 18 mor kiu, mang fu, it just doesn't sound logical. I'm confused again........

Regards, Lau

[mantis108]

Long time no chat. I am well thanks for asking. I hope things are well with you also. :)

"In Pak Mei there is 9 step push and 18 mor kiu, but then it stops. Why?"

I am going to put forth a perspective which is solely my own. 18 and 108 are numbers traditionally associate with Lohan (Arhat) in Shaolin system. Arhat or Lohan is an awaken/enlightened individual. 18x9 is also conventional measurement to the smallest Kalari (training ground) in Kalaripayattu which might have brought to Shaolin by Bodhidharma. So then the 9 or 18 is a reminder that the practitioner (the metaphysical-physical being) is like a small kalari and the attainment is the Arhat-ship. Is Lohan the final achievement or you could still evolve?

"Has there been more after that building on the numberology, but is it lost? Wasn't there more and has something else been added later? 9 step, 18 mor kiu, mang fu, it just doesn't sound logical. I'm confused again........ "

There are very few people who understand and appreciate less is more. If you look at the 1-2-3 formula as mentioned before, Heaven is the smallest in number. It has fewer principles/building blocks yet myriad things are born of it. Take DNA for example, there are but 4 molecules yet they made up smallest wonder as amoeba and greatest wonder like human being. If Bak Mei is indeed a system of power generation, does quantity of techniques out weights quality of Ging (Tun To Fou Chum)? 4 internal, 6 external, and the 8 methods are they not already included in the Jik Bo? After 18 Mor Kiu, isn't it a new beginning with Meng Fu? I guess what I am saying is non attachment to attainment (a pattern) is mother of evolution. Otherwise we can't turn stone into gold.

Knowing you are among those who appreciate Jik Bo, I hope this helps.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Lau]

Hi Mantis108,

Long time no chat indeed. Life has been busy. Next month we're moving to a new house and that has been taking up a lot of time. But now I'll have a back yard to train, so I'm looking foreward to that.

But, just like in the "old" days, I still read read your posts with great interest. My knowledge in Pak Mei doesn't go further than Sip Pat Mor Kiu. And if I wouldn't have known that there was another form after that, than I would think that chi pu ken (straight step punch) / kiew bo toei (nine step push) / sip pat mor kiu (18 mor kiu) would be a nice complete system.

"After 18 Mor Kiu, isn't it a new beginning with Meng Fu? I guess what I am saying is non attachment to attainment (a pattern) is mother of evolution"

Do I interpret you correct that you say that chi pu ken / kiew bo toei / sip pat mor kiu is the main part of the system and that mang fu is to show you the importance of the Chi pu ken form? Sort of going "full circle". So to say "showing you that you've learnt everything allready". It sounds logical. That is that part you train the most. So it must be the core of the system. I would have thought that the last form would show me relaxation (if I ever learn it at all) and teach me the way how to use Pak Mei power more efficient for when I get older. But perhaps that is the same. Just looking at the fundamentals with a new view on things.

"If Bak Mei is indeed a system of power generation, does quantity of techniques out weights quality of Ging (Tun To Fou Chum)? 4 internal, 6 external, and the 8 methods are they not already included in the Jik Bo?"

I totally agree with this thought. Pak Mei is all about power generation. And it is taught in Chi pu ken (jek bo). The forms after that show you how to use that power in a few simple efficient techniques. Good that you mention the 4 internal, 6 external, and the 8 methods again. I haven't been thinking on these theories for some time now. I will try to put my thoughts on them straight again. See if I still know them... (I feel ashamed already)

Regards, Lau

[Tainan Mantis]

Hi Mantis108,
When Damo came to China Buddhism in India had 16 Arhats. The last 2 were added in China.

[Tainan Mantis]

So far the explanations for numbers have been based on things that don't relate directly to kung fu fighting.

In Chan Master Fu Ju's manuscript from the end of the Song Dynasty he details the numbers so that we can understand that they relate to nothing but fighting.

This manuscript was recopied by Wang Yifu.
Wang practiced 18 Luohan Short Strikes which was also known as Praying Mantis.

The first form is called "Short Strikes Nine Nine Eighty-one"
The first 9 denotes 9 key words.
The second 9 denotes the 9 changes for each keyword

"...every character has 9 changes,
therefore it is named Short Strikes 9 9 81..."

Also provided is the complete form as well as explanations of how to use the techniques.

Another one...

Fanche Lulu Fist Six Six Thirty-six
This one only has 6 keywords, but we can do the math.

Another one...

"... like Fanche(Lulu Fist 6 6 36), there is 36 Continuous Fist..."

In insufficient detail he goes on to say that through the combining and changing of techniques we can reach 64, 72 and finally 81 changes.

For those who do Mi Dzong Chuen, these key words are similar to the 16 key words of that style.

Through enough research it is possible that many styles can be traced to when Fu Ju trained monks at Shaolin.

For more info on that story check out R(Shaolin)'s web page.

The one problem with my manuscript is that at present it can not be proven how old it is.
Hopefully through more collaboration-and comparison of other versions of this manuscript-some worthwhile discoveries can be made.

[r.(shaolin)]

Some schools have suggested that

[mantis108]

"Long time no chat indeed. Life has been busy. Next month we're moving to a new house and that has been taking up a lot of time. But now I'll have a back yard to train, so I'm looking foreward to that. "

Thanks for touching base. I remember you were soon to be moving into a new place. So it's going to be next month. I am happy for you that now you have more training space and hopefully time. :)

"But, just like in the "old" days, I still read read your posts with great interest. My knowledge in Pak Mei doesn't go further than Sip Pat Mor Kiu. And if I wouldn't have known that there was another form after that, than I would think that chi pu ken (straight step punch) / kiew bo toei (nine step push) / sip pat mor kiu (18 mor kiu) would be a nice complete system. "

Thanks for the support. Personally, I believe quality is more important that quantity. I think you are on the right track.

"Do I interpret you correct that you say that chi pu ken / kiew bo toei / sip pat mor kiu is the main part of the system and that mang fu is to show you the importance of the Chi pu ken form? Sort of going "full circle". So to say "showing you that you've learnt everything allready". It sounds logical. That is that part you train the most. So it must be the core of the system. I would have thought that the last form would show me relaxation (if I ever learn it at all) and teach me the way how to use Pak Mei power more efficient for when I get older. But perhaps that is the same. Just looking at the fundamentals with a new view on things. "

I am sure teacher will look at thing differently even if they are from the same system and same teacher. So, I can't answer this one for you. It is or it isn't is for you to decide. Kind of like Neo (in the Matrix the movie), he has to decide whether he's the one or not rather that people telling him whether he is or is not. I think it is excellent that you recognize the need for relaxation.

"I totally agree with this thought. Pak Mei is all about power generation. And it is taught in Chi pu ken (jek bo). The forms after that show you how to use that power in a few simple efficient techniques. Good that you mention the 4 internal, 6 external, and the 8 methods again. I haven't been thinking on these theories for some time now. "

It's always good to work with different things from time to time.

I will try to put my thoughts on them straight again. See if I still know them... (I feel ashamed already)

You need not feel that way. To be honest, I feel that way all the time. It only helps to motivate me to work harder. Kung Fu is a life time commitment thing so the work (Kung Fu) is never really done or good enough. :)

Warm regards

Robert

[mantis108]

Thanks for the info. It's very interesting.

I also copied and your post about the 9x9 =81 to the TJPM forum. Hope you don't mind.

<<<So far the explanations for numbers have been based on things that don't relate directly to kung fu fighting.>>>

Well, I gave my theory on why 18 roads/hands/postures/techs etc... is associated with the name 18 Lohan. As r. (Shaolin) pointed out there might be other perspective to look at the adaptation of 18.

<<In Chan Master Fu Ju's manuscript from the end of the Song Dynasty he details the numbers so that we can understand that they relate to nothing but fighting.

This manuscript was recopied by Wang Yifu.
Wang practiced 18 Luohan Short Strikes which was also known as Praying Mantis.>>

Wang Yifu wouldn't happen to be Wang Lang? This is rather puzzling. Is there a copy of this available somewhere?

<<<The first form is called "Short Strikes Nine Nine Eighty-one"
The first 9 denotes 9 key words.
The second 9 denotes the 9 changes for each keyword

"...every character has 9 changes,
therefore it is named Short Strikes 9 9 81...">>>

Okay, I follow your logic here.

<<<Also provided is the complete form as well as explanations of how to use the techniques.>>>

Wow, there's really a great manuscript.

<<<Another one...

Fanche Lulu Fist Six Six Thirty-six
This one only has 6 keywords, but we can do the math.

Another one...

"... like Fanche(Lulu Fist 6 6 36), there is 36 Continuous Fist..."

In insufficient detail he goes on to say that through the combining and changing of techniques we can reach 64, 72 and finally 81 changes.

For those who do Mi Dzong Chuen, these key words are similar to the 16 key words of that style.>>

That's amazing. :)

<<<Through enough research it is possible that many styles can be traced to when Fu Ju trained monks at Shaolin.>>>

or vice versa. Remeber, it is said that Fu Ju invites different masters from outside to teach at Shaolin. So in that case, Shaolin art at that time could just be JKD or MMA at the that time.

<<<For more info on that story check out R(Shaolin)'s web page.>>>

Thanks will check that out.

<<<The one problem with my manuscript is that at present it can not be proven how old it is.
Hopefully through more collaboration-and comparison of other versions of this manuscript-some worthwhile discoveries can be made.>>>

I am more than happy to voluntee for the job. :D

Warmest regards

Mantis108

[mantis108]

Hi r.(Shaolin),

Thanks for the informative post. Your point is well taken. I believe Kung Fu develop both outside and inside Shaolin temple. It is understandable that some styles insist on a close tie with Shaolin ( perceived prestiege) while other rather dissassociate with it.

Regards

Mantis108

[Yum Cha]

An interesting thread, thanks to all.

Specifically, an interesting application for Pak Mei. It makes total sense to me, with concerns to the 4 patterns. Fills in a couple of missing pieces as well, concerning some of the "lore" thanks.

A couple of wee questions?

Have you ever heard of the Pak Mei Bat Fat? Would you call that the 8 techniques? Or, is this something different?

4 internal powers: Ging, Chi, Chen and ?

Thanks again for the informative thread.

[fiercest tiger]

The ging , chi, shen is part of the luk hup saam hup internal 3, the saam hup for the external in ng , sau, gerk.

As for the baat faat well this could vary depending on the teacher and the pak mei style i would say.

mantis 108 maybe better to explain the baat faat, my chinese ahh no good ahhh!:)

nice thread guys, keep it up.


FT:)

[fiercest tiger]

i have seen it with 5 internal and 5 external co-ordaintes if you call it that. But 6 covers it best as the others are adititives to the 3 i think like yi, shen mind and heart i can bind like the purpose. Now im confusing myself but i know what i mean, maybe you guys cants follow?

FT:rolleyes:

[mantis108]

Hi Yum Cha,,

"Have you ever heard of the Pak Mei Bat Fat? Would you call that the 8 techniques? Or, is this something different?"

Yes, the Bat Fa are the 8 techniques.

4 internal powers: Ging, Chi, Chen and ?

4 internal are the Tun (swallow), To (spit), Fao (surface) and Chum (submerge).

Ging/Jing , Chi/Qi, and Chen/Shen are the 3 treasures of Taoism which are also know as the 3 Blossoms. Although there are 3 of them, they are regarded as a unity.

"Thanks again for the informative thread."

You are most welcome my friend. :)

Hi FT,

Thanks for the interesting input. :)

Regards

Mantis108

[fiercest tiger]

Hi,

So would the 3 blossums be considered a part of the luk hup? YKM use this in luk hup just wondering what is the difference of the 3 blossums to the 3 internal saam hup of luk hup.

cheers
FT:)

[Yum Cha]

Hmmmm...I'm a bit confused now....obviously <grin>?

I've always understood the 6 powers to be

Hoi / Hahp - Open / Close
Tan / Tou - Swallow / Spit
Chahm / Fauh - Sink / Float

but I'v also seen it said:

6 Powers, 3 internal, 3 external;
External: Hand - Foot - Eye [ft, is that ng , sau, gerk?]
Internal: Chi - Ging - Heart (schen)

Are these related, or from different "philosophys" (Pak Mei Pai and Taoism?) or am I just plain wrong?

The Bat Fa. I've seen this: draw, cut, rope, collide, rush, whip, spring and press, but my Bat Fa is different. Can you comment?

Mantis, thank you for being so generous with your knowledge, I hope to be able to offer something to you one day. If you partake in the flesh of a beast, I've got a great secret for BBQ Ribs...<grin>.

[fiercest tiger]

hoi and harp, i think is the connection of yuil, ma waist and horse locking and opening the hips or opening and closing the centerline!

If you would like to attend my seminar in december on FCTT AND internal power course you are welcome?

IT explains the forces etc:)

luk hup is correct the luk ging in the 6 joints which is the sum hup hands and feet with the eyes.

till then
Garry:)

[Lau]

Hi,

I think there are a lot of different interpretations. There are some poems about pak mei that are given over from Sifu to student. They speak about 3 doors / 4 doors / 6 powers / 6 harmonies Ect. But what do they exactly mean? Or, do we really need to know the exact meaning?

For example the 6 powers in the line "6 powers hold tight, internal energy is created" Ask someone and everybody will have a different list of 6 body parts. Does it matter? Or should we remember the meaning that simply the wholy body needs to tense at the last moment? I think it is the last one. When there is no written information about this from Cheung Lai Chuen than the discussion will go on forever. However, it is good food for thought/discussion for a nice afternoon of Dim Sum!

Regards, Lau

[fiercest tiger]

I think its really important to know the exact meanings as they tell you alot about what is going on. Luk ging may mean the whole body but how many can really get ging?:) Its hard to get everymove with ging, with mindset, intent,chi etc.

Dim Sum would be nice:)

FT

[mantis108]

Hi Yum Cha,

"Are these related, or from different "philosophys" (Pak Mei Pai and Taoism?) or am I just plain wrong?"

IMHO there's a difference between Luk Ging and Lup Hup. But I guess to each their own. :)

"The Bat Fa. I've seen this: draw, cut, rope, collide, rush, whip, spring and press, but my Bat Fa is different. Can you comment?"

That's the Bat Fa that I know of. If you don't mind sharing yours, I am all ears, my friend. :)

"Mantis, thank you for being so generous with your knowledge, I hope to be able to offer something to you one day. If you partake in the flesh of a beast, I've got a great secret for BBQ Ribs...<grin>."

Glad you find the info helpful. Thank you, secret for BBQ ribs will do just fine. lol...

Lau,

I hear you and I would love to talk Kung Fu over Dim Sum with you some day... :)

FT,

I think you have raised some interesting point but like Lau pointed out we are getting away from the original topic. May be you would open another thread for further discussion. I guess we can go on about Bak Mei related topics all day since we all love the art.

Regards

Mantis108

[fiercest tiger]

Would it be possible for you to say the cantonese names for me for each of the baat faat? Having problems with english names fitting with the moves!!:rolleyes: lol gwalo ahhhhh.


I may start another pak mei thread on something as you have mentioned. Its funny how one topic can lead into 10,000 things.:)

take care and thanks
FT

:)

[GeneChing]

You know what hell is? It's searching this forum for a thread on Buddhist Hell that you know you started, and then realizing that you started it on a different forum entirely. Oh heck.

I'm hijacking this thread for Buddhist Hell.


The Monsters of Buddhism—Inside and Out (https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/buddhist-monsters/)
What the most chilling creatures in Buddhist lore and literature say about us and the world we live in.
By Julia Hirsch OCT 31, 2018

https://cdn.tricycle.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/stefano-pollio-1001x751.jpg
Stefano Pollio | https://tricy.cl/2OYsSeh

While there is no shortage of serene and benevolent buddhas, Buddhist folklore abounds with hell-raising zombies, vampires, ghouls, and ogres. But they’re not just the stuff of myth and legends. Depending on whom you ask, these ferocious monsters are thought to be as real as you or me, or serve as potent symbols of our less enlightened sides.

Since reincarnation sits at the heart of Buddhist cosmology, we are never far from becoming the monsters we fear. In tantric traditions, practitioners are taught that subjugating outer demons is really about taming inner ones. As you reflect on the creatures rounded up in this cross-cultural compendium, you’ll see that monsters do more than scare people into acting more virtuously. They also clue us in to the monsters within us, the most destructive and flawed parts of ourselves. Their role is not to harm, but to show us that our form is always changing from demon to bodhisattva and back again.

PRETAS: GHOSTS WHO JUST CAN’T GET ENOUGH

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A depiction of the Buddha’s attendant Ananda meeting a preta in the Hungry Ghosts scroll (Gaki-Zoshi), which is kept at the Kyoto National Museum. | https://tricy.cl/2yGPR3i

Many Buddhist monasteries have a wheel at their entrances that is inscribed with the six realms of worldly existence. The realms depicted in the Wheel of Life—a graphic illustration of core Buddhist teachings and cosmology—are inhabited by gods, demigods, animals, humans, pretas (or hungry ghosts), and hell beings.

Pretas have bloated bellies, pinhole mouths, and constricted throats that signify their insatiable hunger and thirst. Taken literally, they are what awaits us in the next life if we give in to our greed, but they also serve as a metaphor for the grasping state of mind that leads to dissatisfaction, (a state we’re all familiar with). They are compulsive spirits prone to addiction, and according to Hindu mythology, where pretas first appeared, there are over 35 colorful types who live on the brink of insanity.

While they are popularly referred to as hungry ghosts, the term preta in Sanskrit directly translates as “departed” or “deceased,” indicating that these frightful apparitions are really spirits of the dead who did not receive proper goodbyes from their families and are thus condemned to starvation.

In Japanese Buddhist demonology, they are known as jikininki, or human-eating ghosts. Born of a miserly and self-serving mind, these nocturnal demons are said to live on the outskirts of villages, near cemeteries, scavenging for fresh corpses. Their appetite for rotting human flesh and feces, however, is not their most terrifying attribute; the jikininki possess the supernatural ability to camouflage as humans by day and often go unnoticed.

To ward off these creatures that roam in our midst and in our minds, Japanese monks and nuns hold a segaki ceremony, during which they feed the ghosts. This festival has traveled far from Japan’s monastic circles. Today it is celebrated every trick-or-treat season at the Dharma Rain Zen Center in Oregon, where Portlandians get together to offer remembrance prayers to those who have died and cleanse their own unresolved karma.

NARAKAS: WELCOME TO HELL

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A Burmese representation of hell beings suffering in one of the hot Buddhist hells. | https://tricy.cl/2OWWfh8

Next door on the Wheel of Life are narakas, or hell beings, which tend to get less attention than the hungry ghosts despite being even more spine-chilling. Known for their hot tempers, these tormented denizens of hell are marked by unchecked anger and aggression.

Actions motivated by hatred will land you a one-way ticket to one of several hundred hells and sub-hells found in Naraka, the Buddhist underworld. Described in considerable detail in the Devaduta Sutta, narakas pay their karmic debts in hot hells, where they are impaled by blazing iron tridents, dismembered by axes, boiled in cauldrons, or burned with fire by the henchmen of Yama, the Lord of Death. The cold hells—frozen, desolate plains without a sun or moon—are no picnic, either. In this icy purgatory, the skin of unfortunate victims splits like lotus flowers and bursts with blisters.

As soon as these beings are crushed to death or perish from exposure, “they come back to life,” writes Tibetan master Patrul Rinpoche (1808–1887) in The Words of My Perfect Teacher, “only to suffer the same torments over and over again.” Much like the feeling of hate, the pain inflicted here loops around on itself. But this torture, like everything else, eventually ends—although it could last millions of years.

Throughout East Asia, Buddhists perform devotional practices to invoke Ksitigarbha, the bodhisattva who airlifts beings from the hells to higher ground. Counted among the eight “heart sons” of Shakyamuni Buddha, this revered Mahayana deity is usually depicted as a simple monk. Those who find themselves overcome by self-destructive thoughts or awash with anger can call for Ksitigarbha’s swift rescue by reciting his effective mantra: Om ah K****i Garbha thaleng hum.

DELOGS: TIBETAN ZOMBIES WHO AREN’T SO MINDLESS
Hell beings are not the only creatures to tour the dark side of the Buddhist cosmos. In Tibet, there is an entire genre of biographical literature written by and about delogs, men and women who die, travel to the lower hells, and then return to the human realm to recount their tales. These born-again Buddhists warn the living about the terrifying fates that await them if they misbehave.

In her firsthand account, Journey to Realms Beyond Death, Dawa Drolma shares her experience of entering a death-like meditative state back when she was a teenager. For five days, the 16-year-old lay cold and breathless while her consciousness moved freely through other realms. Escorted by the wisdom goddess White Tara, Dawa Drolma reports meeting deceased family members, high lamas, bodhisattvas in the heavens, and tortured spirits in the hells. As was the case with this 20th-century boundary-crosser, many delogs go on to become great advocates and propagators of the dharma.

continued next post

[GeneChing]

Tengu are also great sword teachers...um...so I'm told. ;)


TENGU: MISCHIEVOUS DEMON CROWS

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A tengu demon and a Buddhist monk. | https://tricy.cl/2OZYOPH

Bad karma can turn even monks into vengeful demons. In medieval Japan, insincere Buddhist monks ran a high risk of being reborn as tengu. Equal parts man and crow, tengu are imaginative, exploitative, and not without a perverse sense of humor. The mischief-makers are fond of harassing monks meditating in the mountains, causing rock slides, knocking over buildings, cutting down trees, and setting forests afire. Tengu are also deft martial artists and have the power to possess people. To outsmart a tengu, you’ll have to cater to their sweet tooth. Rumor has it that they like bean paste and rice.

KISHIMOJIN: THE REFORMED BABY EATER

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The Buddhist goddess Hariti. | https://tricy.cl/2RoVudv

The child-eating-demoness-turned-goddess Kishimojin exemplifies how no Buddhist monster is beyond redemption. Kishimojin (who goes by the name Hariti in Nepal) is an especially important figure in contemporary Nichiren and Shingon schools. During her days as a demon, Kishimojin abducted and killed children in order to feed her own brood, which numbered into the thousands by some accounts.

To convey the pain that she was causing other mothers, legend holds that Shakyamuni Buddha hid the youngest of her children in his alms bowl. The distraught matriarch begged Shakyamuni to return her son, promising that she would never kill another child and would adopt the Buddha’s teachings. Suitably chastened, the new Buddhist convert became a guardian deity and vowed to safeguard children and women in childbirth.

BELU: CANNIBALISTIC OGRES WITH A SOFT SIDE

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Belu, depicted in watercolor. | https://tricy.cl/2P0Iyhk

Hailing from Myanmar, belu, a species of ogre, are particularly difficult to detect. They look exactly like humans, save for their blood-red eyes and inability to cast shadows. With sharp fangs and a corrosive touch, these vampiric demons are skilled predators; few victims have been known to escape their attacks. (If you’re feeling adventurous, venture to Myanmar’s Bilu Kyun, or “Ogre Island,” for a possible sighting.)

Belu may be cannibals, but they’re not all bad. There is a benevolent faction, the panswe belu, who despite their curved fangs are herbivores and subsist on flowers and fruits. Popa Medaw, the “Mother of Popa,” is perhaps the most famous flower-eating ogress in Myanmar. This powerful Burmese nat [local spirit], as her title suggests, has dominion over the extinct volcano Mount Popa and assists devotees in all religious endeavors, including the construction of pagodas.

Every August, tens of thousands of visitors flock to a village north of Mandalay, where a week-long nat festival is held to pay homage to Popa Medaw’s two rebel sons, the Taungbyon brothers. In the 11th century, the influential duo was enlisted by King Anawrahta—who established Theravada Buddhism as the country’s national religion—to secure a tooth relic of the Buddha from China. Although their mission was successful, the monarch later ordered the brothers to be executed because they were more interested in playing marbles than building a temple. (Gross and disturbing fact: the brothers were killed by having their testicles crushed.) The pagoda was eventually finished and is a major tourist attraction and pilgrimage site.

NANG TA-KHIAN: THAILAND’S SEDUCTIVE TREE SPIRITS

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A tree in Koh Samui, Thailand where a Nang Ta-khian tree spirit lives. Offerings have been made, including traditional Thai-silk dress, shoes, and even a bra. | https://tricy.cl/2Oh3Bqr

The righteous need not be afraid when wandering through Thai forests. Those who have transgressed, however, will incur the wrath of otherwise benign female tree spirits called Nang Ta-khian. Often heard wailing in the night, these woodland protectors reside in the body of Ta-khian trees (Hopea odorata), an endangered species valued for its wood, and can shift at will into beautiful, seductive young women. To avoid their fury, worshipers place traditional Thai silk dresses at the base of their trees.

That said, you better think twice before you go tree-hugging or felling in Thailand. Nang Ta-khian are sacred sirens of the woods, and those who get too close may not make it out alive.

♦

As threatening as these flesh-eating ghouls and demons may be, the most frightening fact of all is how easily we can turn into monsters ourselves in this life or the next. Luckily, the story goes the other way, too, with the possibility of redemption never too far away. But if you want a real scare this Halloween, take a long look inside your own mind.

Julia Hirsch is Tricycle's community development manager.