Please.. who's lineage is better is getting old..

[8StalksOfRice]

Please.. whose lineage is better .. is at best moot. I check back once in a while and its most I ever see here..

Until WingChun has a championship fight-off, we will never know whose school/lineage harbors the best fighters and even then is it the school, style, or the individual or all?

There are individuals in karate, thai boxing, boxing, jiujitsu, aikido which on any given day could beat individuals from other disciplines..and they all went to different schools and different styles of fighting.

Doubt its the wingchun lineage as most wingchun lineages Ive seen are ridiculously similar (ok maybe some extra mini-forms here and there blah blah), IMO its the student his ability and his training and hardwork and everything which makes him unique.

Maybe some schools are better than others but who will really know.. in a tournament the "weak" school (whatever that is) may harbor a championship fighter.. so is it the school or is it the fighter.

And who cares if one style raises his elbow to 90 degrees as opposed to so and so which raises to 135 degrees.
In a fight I dare say if you can hold yer form in realtime fist flying action yer the exception not the norm.

If you think I sound irate, perhaps cause I'm having a hard day OR the subject is really moot..

Train on!

[rubthebuddha]

nah, you're right. i'm in leung ting's family, and even i'm sick of the nobs that are saying ...

"leung ting's is the best, but i've never tried anyone else."

sweet friggin jebus. no one respects an opinion based on one experience.

someone like sihing73? been around the block, so i darn well respect his opinion.

but a schmuck who thinks that, because they enjoy their studies and find it effect, their style is the "best" is sadly mistaken and is doing more harm than good by saying it's the best. one can say positive things about your style that one knows, but claiming superiority with no basis is a practice of fools.

i agree with ya, 8stalks.

[azwingchun]

You know I completely agree with you, though I feel this forum is somewhat tame compared to some other forums. In fact for that very reason that is why I only choose to post here and not elsewhere.

You will not see me post ragarding these type of topics very often if at all. Due to the fact that I don't allow myself to get caught up in all the politics. I mean seariously, who cares if your system was inspired by a fox and crane or a fox and a snake, if you system comes from Ng Mui or somewhere else. It is still Wing Chun. Though, I agree there are those teaching Kenpo (or whatever style) and selling it as Wing Chun, but this isn't what I am speaking of. Though, in reality these are the people we should be bashing, not each other.

I completely agree that it is the individual that makes a system/style great, I could be the best teacher in the world and have some crappy student who doesn't give it his/her all. Should this reflect on me? I don't think so. What if I produce a world class Wing Chun fighter? Do I take all the credit, or should the student? I once was told by a Wing Chun teacher that Wing Chun is in everyone, it was his job to bring the Wing Chun out of a student, and up to the student to perfect those tools.(I can't remember his exact words, this was my interpretation) This same teacher told me that if the principles are followed and trained deligently there is no "BAD" Wing Chun. I think regardless of what lineage, Sifu, slight differences in elbow alignment, or what weight distribution one chooses we all seem to be doing Wing Chun. I know some will disagree, but this is my belief. If anything we should all learn from each other.

Wouldn't it be funny if when we are all dead and gone, we find ol' Ip Man in the after life laughing his butt off. Why? Because he never passed the true Wing Chun to any of his students, that he kept it for himself! Who knows, maybe true Wing Chun was locked away further back than Ip Man. Maybe no one has the true Wing Chun. Obviously, I am kidding, but think about it.

I wish you all good luck in your training, and hopefully we will all open up our minds, and grow through this.

[{i^(]

I'm absolutely sick of this. What's worse is, sometimes you go to seminars, thinking "oh boy, now I'll learn the 'inner door' stuff!" and it all devolves into a massive b1tch session about how everyone else blows chunks. What an absolute f0cking waste of time and money!!!! I could get that on here.

Like I need this. 'C-c-can't we j-j-j-just g-g-get along'? Guess not. I tell everyone I got into wing chun for the politics anyhow (can't beat 'em and I can't beat 'em).

[cobra]

"leung ting's is the best, but i've never tried anyone else."

I said something really close to this recently and it was meant in humor or I wouldn't have followed up with the part of not trying anything else. And, I'm not a fool!!! I don't really give a **** what anyone else studies as it doesn't affect me. I am also not so stupid as to think that we're "the best", "the only", or anything else. So, when someone post some ridiculous crap on here, then every now and then I may post something humorously and if it isn't taken that way, then I shouldn't be called a fool. All that being said, "Leung Ting WingTsun is an excellent choice!!!"

Everyone lighten up and have a good day!!

[rubthebuddha]

but you didn't say it, someone else did. and it's been said time and again, regardless of family. i just don't like the line one iota.

now, saying leung ting's is an excellent choice, i'll bite on that one. is why i'm in it.

next time in texas, i'll buy you a pint.

[cobra]

Probably be cheaper to buy a whole case!! Better yet, we'll split it 50/50.

[Clint]

People do always discuss what system is best. I usually hear Wing Chun or BJJ! I do believe these are both great fighting systems, but it definetely depends on the individual. All systems pretty much produce great fighters. Just depends on determination and skill of the fighter no matter the system.

[Sui]

Lok yui's yunn chun without a doubt!!!

[8StalksOfRice]

I believe a former Philosophy major once put it..
"If any style teaches you a method of fighting, then you might be able to fight according to the limit of that method, but that is not fighting. If you follow the classical patterns, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow - you are not understanding yourself."

that man's name is Bruce Lee..

Also..
"Please do not be concerned with soft versus firm, kicking versus striking, grappling versus hitting and kicking, long-range fighting versus in-fighting. There is no such thing as " this " is better than " that". Should there be one thing we must guard against, let it be partiality that robs us of our pristine wholeness and make us lose unity in the midst of duality. "

That said.. he went ahead and produced a style..
nonetheless the philosophy is there..

[8StalksOfRice]

More Bruce..
"The man who is really serious, with the urge to find out what truth is, has no style at all. He lives only in what is. "

"If you want to understand the truth in martial arts, to see any opponent clearly, you must throw away the notion of styles or schools, prejudices, likes and dislikes, and so forth. Then, your mind will cease all conflict and come to rest. In this silence, you will see totally and freshly. "

"Why do individuals depend on thousands of years of propaganda? They may preach " softness" as the ideal to " firmness, " but when " what is hits, " what happens? Ideals, principles, the "what should be" leads to hypocrisy. "

Hey maybe he wasnt the best fighter during his era but he was a good heady fighter and did come in contact with many multiple styles..Why do individuals depend on thousands of years of propaganda? They may preach " softness" as the ideal to " firmness, " but when " what is hits, " what happens? Ideals, principles, the "what should be" leads to hypocrisy.

[yuanfen]

8stalks of rice sez:I believe a former Philosophy major once put it..
-----------------------------------------------------
Do you know how good of a philosophy major he really was?

[8StalksOfRice]

"Do you know how good of a philosophy major he really was?"

No I dont but I do see elements of taoism and zen in his thoughts on paper.

Parse my words.. did I say he was a good philosophy major?
Did I say he was a professor? No.
I simply said he was a philosophy major..
Save that open-ended argument for another thread.

[planetwc]

More of a plagarism major. :)

He had a lot of great source material from other folks, which he put to good use, for his own ends.

Truly standing on the shoulders of giants and a few midgets here and there.



Originally posted by yuanfen
8stalks of rice sez:I believe a former Philosophy major once put it..
-----------------------------------------------------
Do you know how good of a philosophy major he really was?

[yuanfen]

crimsonking- I dont bring academic things into list discussions.
Wing chun is as wing chun does as Sifu Gump reportedly once implied.

[old jong]

Please!...Any newspaper horoscope or fortune cookie contains the same wisdom .He was trying to sell his salad!:rolleyes:

[yuanfen]

what? No finga pointing at the moon and missing all the heavenly glowy? Some nights are cloudy.

[old jong]

Today,it's the finger pointing at the computer keyboard!...;)

[Spectre]

I think some people should 'check' their own ideas and philosophies by the looks of some of the responses.

Did Bruce ever claim that he was the originator of an idea? Can anyone really claim an idea (thought, not invention)? He simply related what he read to the martial arts. Remember that he only wrote one book - the rest were by others after his death.

As for the argument about who has the best Wing Chun, who cares. The only thing you should ask is does it work for you? Will it save your life if that ever becomes necessary?

Kevin

[Martial Joe]

"Please.. who's lineage is better is getting old.. "


Its getting old because people like you ask stupid questions like that.

All questions like that do is spark up an argument when another goes and says his or hers is the best.

[Martial Joe]

Not trying to be a ****.

Id stay away from converstation like that if i were you.

When I see people arguing about it I dont say anything and I do think it was old from the start.

Just ignore it.

[8StalksOfRice]

Martial Joe..

read where people are comin from before you start flaming.
I'm arguing its a moot point.
Suppression of speech is a socialistic idea
doesnt apply here in the states..

[reneritchie]

What system is better is like what type of transportation is better, train, plane, truck? What branch is better is like what type of auto is better, a Ferarri Moderna, a Hummer H2, a Ford Focus, a Licoln Navigator, etc.? It all depends on where you are, where you're going, and what you need to get there.

Trains are great for heavy loads but tracks don't go everywhere. Trucks have more limited capacity but can get closer to most destinations. Planes are faster but cargo size can vary and costs can be greater, and not all areas have air ports.

Moderna is great for straight-away speed on asphalt, the Hummer can get you cross country, the Focus is small but affordable, the Navigator luxurious with seating for an extended family.

The "best" lineage will always vary based on the individual teacher and student in question. Luckily, we live in a time and where most of us have access to a wider range than ever before, and can find something that suits us.

RR

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Spectre
I think some people should 'check' their own ideas and philosophies by the looks of some of the responses.

Did Bruce ever claim that he was the originator of an idea? Can anyone really claim an idea (thought, not invention)? He simply related what he read to the martial arts. Remember that he only wrote one book - the rest were by others after his death.

As for the argument about who has the best Wing Chun, who cares. The only thing you should ask is does it work for you? Will it save your life if that ever becomes necessary?

Kevin
Bruce Lee wrote a book? :rolleyes: Which one? :)

Regards,

[Grendel]

Originally posted by reneritchie
What system is better is like what type of transportation is better, train, plane, truck? What branch is better is like what type of auto is better, a Ferarri Moderna, a Hummer H2, a Ford Focus, a Licoln Navigator, etc.? It all depends on where you are, where you're going, and what you need to get there.

I like this analogy. Let's see: Wing Chun is a Ferrari, BJJ is a Hummer, Capoeira is a Lincoln Navigator, JKD is a Ford Focus. Did I guess right? :)


Trains are great for heavy loads but tracks don't go everywhere. Trucks have more limited capacity but can get closer to most destinations. Planes are faster but cargo size can vary and costs can be greater, and not all areas have air ports.

Trains are karate. Planes are martial arts with lots of belts and testing, and require heavy maintenance.


The "best" lineage will always vary based on the individual teacher and student in question. Luckily, we live in a time and where most of us have access to a wider range than ever before, and can find something that suits us.

The best lineage is the one in which no student is left behind. :)

Regards,

[barryc108]

AWWWWWWWW come on Mr Richie we all know that yuean kay san could have made yip man his bi.tch.....
LOL


Sorry people i couldnt resist. :D

[Clint]

Who the hell is Yuean kay san? haaaaaa
:confused:

[Martial Joe]

Yeah maybe I should.

[Martial Joe]

thats probably the dumbest thing ive done in a long time...well everyone needs a wake up call here and there.

[Spectre]

Originally posted by Grendel

Bruce Lee wrote a book? :rolleyes: Which one? :)

Regards,


I believe it was a book called Tao of Gung Fu. It had some interesting stuff, but was at a general view such as gung fu as a whole and not just a specific style/art. Not necessarily an eye opener, but a view of one man's opinions and thoughts.

Regardless of this side comment about Bruce Lee, it should not be a matter of what system is the best, but what system is the best for YOU. Is it efficient for you? Will it save your life if necessary?

Kevin

[rubthebuddha]

i still say the best way of all is honda. they're like wing chun -- efficient, reliable and work great for the vast majority of people.

specifically, i'll take an rsx-type r. but nooooooo, fuggin limeys are hogging them. can only get the type s in the states. :mad:

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Spectre

I believe it was a book called Tao of Gung Fu. It had some interesting stuff, but was at a general view such as gung fu as a whole and not just a specific style/art. Not necessarily an eye opener, but a view of one man's opinions and thoughts.

You're kidding right? :D "The Tao of Jeet Kune Do" was published posthumously and was mostly a collection of his notes. Like real Wing Chun folks, he didn't believe JKD could be codified and taught through a book.


Regardless of this side comment about Bruce Lee, it should not be a matter of what system is the best, but what system is the best for YOU. Is it efficient for you? Will it save your life if necessary?

These are good considerations, but the long term answer may be different. As one gets older, in the study of Wing Chun, one can expect to continuously improve. Not so in the purely external arts.

Regards,

[{i^(]

"Regardless of this side comment about Bruce Lee, it should not be a matter of what system is the best, but what system is the best for YOU. Is it efficient for you? Will it save your life if necessary? "

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"These are good considerations, but the long term answer may be different. As one gets older, in the study of Wing Chun, one can expect to continuously improve. Not so in the purely external arts. "

With respect duly given to the experience noted within the reply, I ask: is it a Good Thing, then, to fight the 'spirit of oneself'? I mean, is it good for a person to pursue an art that might, at the end of day, be inimical or antithethical to one's personality/mind/spirit/values/whatever? What if it simply would never occur to the person, normally speaking, to fight close-in? I understand that any art is teaching a person to alter their ways of doing things, but there is, as they say, more than one way to skin a critter of the feline persuasion, even in the internal arts. Often, you can't say unless you've done it awhile, and it's a very critical, personal question, IMHO, that requires answering honestly-by oneself. Otherwise, it comes off as salesmanship and 'true believer' Moonie-ism to say so (not saying you are any of that, Grendel).

I think that Bruce had a point, really. He was a forward-thinker, if nothing else.

[Spectre]

Originally posted by Grendel

You're kidding right? :D "The Tao of Jeet Kune Do" was published posthumously and was mostly a collection of his notes. Like real Wing Chun folks, he didn't believe JKD could be codified and taught through a book.



I didn't say the book was "The Tao of Jeet Kune Do". I actually said that the name of the book was "Tao of Gung Fu" :D . But after checking my book collection I was incorrect as to the name of Bruce's only book. The actual name of the only book that Bruce wrote is "The Philosophical Art of Self Defense". "Tao of Gung Fu" was also a collection of notes that was put together by John Little.

But once again neither here nor there. I don't think that anyone can say exactly what Bruce was capable of or what he was thinking. The man is dead and no one can know what he would have done or said if alive today.

I still think that the argument for 'my art is better than yours', or 'my lineage is better than yours' is childish. It should be what works for you and what will keep you alive. Now I do believe that Wing Chun's principles have a better foundation to support a practitioner far into their 'elder years' than say BJJ. But this is all relative to time and circumstance.

Kevin