Shorin-ji=Kung Fu?

[Ryan]

I've been reading a little bit of the Japanese style of Shorinji, which was derived from the Shaolin Temple in the early 20th century and brought back to Mother Japan shortly after. Would this classify it as Japanese-Kung Fu?

Also, it is a registered religion in Japan...why is that?

[dezhen2001]

Shorinji kempo was created by Kaiso (founder) Doshin So around 1947. He trained and travelled in China extensively before and during the war (WW2). He learned some different chinese skills, as well as japanese MA. Actually it's said he was high level in a style called Giwamonken in Japanese (dunno the chinese name)?

Even he has visited with the monks at Shaolin and given demonstrations there (in the 60's 70's) before things were commercial like nowadays :p

I trained it for 4 years or so, a good skill, but nothing like northern shaolin. It was codified and simplified... actually it was used to fight Yakuza, so it obviously works ;) :D

david

[dezhen2001]

as for the religion part... they practise 'kon go zen' buddhism, and have teachings such as the 8 fold path etc. It's a central part of the training, along with striking, locking/throwing/manipulation and healing :)

So once they reach a certain standard (above shodan i think which is HARD!), they can actually become Zen monks, though i don't think many do :)

david

[Former castleva]

I don´t know nearly as much as Dezhen but shorinji can be translated as "shaolin" or "shaolin temple" in chinese I think (of course the temple part in this case is not chinese) so it comes straight from China,and kung-fu.
I´m no expert here but it´s kind of funny that it is actually,usually translated as "The way of japanese fist" (this is a rather popular and probably official translation) but my understanding of these obviously nice,but difficult languages is not of high level so I might not go further with that.
I´ve got the idea that it was quite completely developed when it was still in China,but they just basically took it to Japan from there,and wow,now it is a japanese art. :cool:
I don´t know about the religion thing,have not heard anything like that before (kongo zen seems to work for them,one branch of zen buddhism it is,as previously stated)

[dezhen2001]

FC: weird how we both post on the same threads these last few days huh? ;)

Shorinji Kempo is the same Kanji as ShaolinSi QuanFa - same writing...

Like i said the founder trained n China and Japan to an extent, and refined all the skills he learned before starting teaching on one of the southern islands in Japan in 1947...

As far as the kongo zen... i dunno what it translates as, sorry :) But it's also the name of their headquarters in Japan i think? It's been a few years since i had any real contact with any SK guys... but i do know that Buddhism in general forms part of their training.

FC: check your Private messages please :)

david

[omegapoint]

Shorin=Shaolin Ji=Temple. Before Doshin So's Shorinj Kempo, there was Chotoku Kyan's, Okinawan Shorinji Ryu (Shaolin Temple Way). A ruyha, or subsystem of Sokon Matumura's Orthodox Shorin Ryu, a combination of Shaolin Chuan Fa and indigenous Okinawan fighting methods.

They have the same name but Shorinji Kempo is purely a Japanese cultish thing, whereas Shorinji Ryu is a modernized Okinawan combat art.

[dezhen2001]

shorinji kempo isn't really a cult, but more like a sect of buddhism! :D Actually that part isn't forced, but the eithics and morality are just part of training, and you come to understand them... :)

i think doshin so's shorinji kempo is about as modern as u can get... as it was created in 1947

david

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by dezhen2001
shorinji kempo isn't really a cult, but more like a sect of buddhism! :D Actually that part isn't forced, but the eithics and morality are just part of training, and you come to understand them... :)

i think doshin so's shorinji kempo is about as modern as u can get... as it was created in 1947

david

Most karate-do (vs. toudi jutsu) was formalized at that time. I was talking about Shorin-Ji Ryu, O'Sensei Kyan's Okinawan Shorin style, not Doshin So's monastic influenced style. I didn't mean cult. There is nothing wrong with practicing Zen/Ch'an Buddhism!

[David Jamieson]

Other schools use Shorin Ryu within their systems as well.

Isshin Ryu combines Shorin and Goju in its system.
It still tastes "karate" but has a more circular flavour overall than mainland karate which tends to be very "hard" and linear in its attacks and defenses.

The Okinawan styles tend to lean more towards Chinese Martial Flavour and principles but it cannot be helped when regionally they influence each other.

Much in the same way as you see styles blending and evolving today. Of course nowadays, things seem to behave more globally in influences.

peace

[Former castleva]

"The Okinawan styles tend to lean more towards Chinese Martial Flavour and principles "

That must be due to original root of karate,in other words Okinawan karate coming from chinese martial arts (White Crane etc.)

[dezhen2001]

It reminds me of the time when i learned Goju Ryu's Sanchin and Tensho katas from someone informally... They are very different from the Shotokan i practised. Even the Goju kata Seisan which Shotokans Hangetsu comes form is different... though there are some similarities...

Tensho was one of my favourite katas :)

It's interesting to see books like the Bubishi and others exploring the connection with white crane, 5 ancestors and shaolin quan etc. It's also interesting to see how both skills have diversified from each other :)

But as to who has the 'right' to call things Shaolin/Shorinji - it's a pretty difficult topic!

david

[Ben Gash]

No I wouldn't classify it as Japanese kung fu. It is heavily infused with jujitsu and karate, with a hint of kung fu. The Zen is an integral part of the training, so if you're not a buddhist I'd find something else.

[HuangKaiVun]

Depends on how one defines "kung fu".

If you take the translation of kung fu literally, as in "higher art", I don't see why Japanese Shorinji kempo isn't "kung fu".

Now if we are talking about a martial art which originated in China, it gets even more confusing.

Because of its efficacy and standardized learning patterns (e.g. kata, etc . . .) I believe that Japanese Shorinji IS a legitimate "kung fu", though not necessarily Chinese in origin.

[Brad]

If you take the translation of kung fu literally, as in "higher art"

It mean's "higher art"? :confused:

[Former castleva]

"It mean's "higher art"? "

It has plenty of bizarre translations like "energy-time" and "technique",besides classic ones of course.
:)

Shorinji is called "gendai budo" these days,which means it is young/modern martial art like aikido.
Old japanese MA is called "Koryu" meaning old school.
And even though they ripped it off China :cool: it is hard to make it chinese at this point anymore.
You don´t call budo (martial way) arts chinese/kung-fu and you don´t call hung gar budo.
In the end of the day,it is mostly an issue of liking,whether you call it what you do or not.
It is more accurate to refer a certain art into it´s own category (one has to remember though that at least in modern times and in the west people say "budo" when they talk about MA in general)