To LiLong about Chuka Shaolin Phoenix Eye Fist

[FIRE HAWK]

LiLong what do you know about the style called Chuka Shaolin Phoenix Eye Fist i read you said your style has a hand form that comes from the Chu sisters of Chuka Shaolin Phoenix Eye Fist what is the name of the hand form.Also do you know anything about Chuka Shaolin Phoenix Eye Fist on mainland China there i believe they call the style Zhu jia or Jyu Ga.

[RENEGADE_MONK]

FireHawk,

Zhu jia, or Zhou=Jow jia=Ga to the best of my knowledge is referenced to Jow Ga, not related to Chuka Phoenix Eye fist. Are you able to tell me where you got your info?

Thanx

[LiLong]

FireHawk,

The hand form in my system is actually called Chen Chu Ka. though Chuka itself is not part of Li Long Bai Mei (my system) we recognize its use of the PE fist, so the form was developed a few grandmasters ago. As far as the relation between Chuka and Jow Gar I would have to say they are only related as far as all martial arts are related and not directly so. To my knowledge there is no Chuka in mainland China. Cheong Cheng Leong is the only current master (actually grandmaster) of the system and he resides in Penang (Malaysia). There are two good books which are overviews of the system. Just go on Amazon and type in chuka. The older of the two is better, with more pics. From what i see the system is southern in nature minus low stances. I recommend the books to get a feel for it. Chi Kwai and I are planning to travel to study under grandmaster Leong next year. That should be an incredible experience. Keep writing and hopefully we will be able to dig deep into the roots of this system and get more ppl motivated about it. Cheers :D

[FIRE HAWK]

From what i understand on my research on Chuka Shaolin Phoenix Eye Fist and Southern Mantis.I found that Chu Gar southern mantis and Chuka Shaolin Phoenix Eye Fist are called Zhu Jia in the Chinese Mandarine language and in the Tuttle Dictionary of martial arts under Jyu Ga it says to look under Zhu Jia this is where Chuka Shaolin Phoenix Eye Fist is listed and there is another style listed under Chyu Ga these are both two different styles of Chu Gar Southern Mantis i was also told that Chuka Shaolin is a old style of Chu Gar Gao old style Chu Gar Southern Mantis.These styles have nothing to do with the style called Jow Gar also called Chow Ka of the founder Jow Lung Jow Gar style of Jow Lung should also not be confused with the Southern Mantis Style called Chow Gar or Chow Ga also called Zhou Jia .Jow Lungs Jow Gar just shares the name of these southern mantis styles but are not related.As i said Zhu Jia ,Zhou Jia,are Mandarine names for Chu Gar and Chow Gar southern Mantis and Jow Lungs Jow Gar ,Zhou Jia ,just happen to use the same name but are not related.Chuka Shaolin Phoenix Eye fist is also called Chu Gar Chong Gar Chuen Chus Family middle Range and also Hukka and in the Tuttle dictionary it is called Jyu Ga and Mandarine name Zhujia,I believe that there are two styles of Chu Gar Southern Mantis the Chugar that is from Hong kong and mainland China called Chu Gar,Chyu Ga ,Zhu Jia,Chuka,and Chuka Shaolin Phoenix Eye Fist which is called Chuka ,Jyu Ga,Chu gar Chong Gar Chuen,Hukka,Zhu Jia,and is also called a old style of Chu Gar Gao old style Southern Mantis there is also a style in Fukien Province there is a style called Fukien Chuka Southern Shaolin Phoenix style.Jow Lungs Jow Gar style which also uses the Zhou Jia name is not the same styles that i have mentioned above.I will try to give you more information later as this can be very confusing but i have been searching for information on Chuka Shaolin for 3 years and about its history to they seem to have Fukien Province Roots more on this stuff later.

[LiLong]

Wow FireHawk you got lots of info. Your 3 year research is longer than mine and it shows. In the books published by grandmaster Cheong Cheng Leong they only go as far back as the Chu sisters and the shaolin nun who taught them 5 animal. i am very busy with school, work and an upcoming test in kung fu. However I will try to match your research efforts. The history of the Chuka system beyond the Chu sisters is recognized to be a mistery even by grandmaster Cheong Cheng Leong himself!! I am thinking that the style I study (Li Long Bai Mei) might have some common and distant origins because one of the names it has been used for it is Chen Chu Pei. However there was an injection of Pak Mei that took up most of my system. It is difficult to find history on it because my grandmaster suffered a stroke that clouded his memory as well as a fire that burned down his manuscripts amongst other Chen family relics. Chi Kwai and I are struggling to piece Li Long Bai Mei and the Chuka system. Again lets keep exchanging info and even if we come up with diverging histories (kind of like what's happening to our Wing chun brothers) we will keep these arts alive. Cheers :)

[Kevin Barkman]

Hello,

I took the above advice and ordered the book through Amazon - just got it yesterday. It's a very good read, although I'm still unsure about the differences between the two books (aside from the weapons).

The one thing I just don't understand is the strange horse stance and punch (as seen on the front cover). This seems to violate a very fundamental principle in all martial-arts - that of hip rotation. Also seems to leave one a bit vulnerable....

[Crimson Phoenix]

Ao Qin, hip rotation isn't found everywhere...for example, Fujian (fukien) White Crane (bai he) has stances with the knees pressed in that allow little movement of the hips (compared to northen styles stances)...fujian bai he has another mean of developping power than the horizontal rotation of the hips: it relies on vertical ondulation of the spine triggered at the sacrum level and going all the way through the shoulders and the arms to express the jing in the hands or fingers...also, another big source of power for fujian bai he is the use of the shoulders pressing in or extending the chest.
With these schemes, you don't need much twisting of the hips (which the stances don't facilitate anyway).
I believe this type of mechanism can be extended to a lot of other southern styles, without making any generalization...

[RENEGADE_MONK]

FireHawk,

;) ....Thanx for the info, humm I think i already mentioned in my earlier post the differences in the systems...especially so being that I study Jow ga. I just wanted to know where you got your info.

[chi-kwai]

Crimson Phoenix is correct. One of the fundamental aspects of kung fu is something called "chan si ging" which means silk reeling energy. In practice, it is the the twisting motion you see in kung fu styles of all types.

This twisting, whether it be in the hip, or rotation of the arm, or whipping of the back is used to generate power that other systems get from long punches or huge stepping kicks. The twisting motion allows a kung fu practitioner to cover more ground in less distance.

--
chi kwai

[LiLong]

As it stands the older version of the Chuka book co-authored by drager focuses on forms and drills practiced by the Chuka exponent. The new version (white cover) has staff, healing and two men forms which are absent in the first one (red cover). First book I think is better because it has more pics from different angles. It is a good reference into Chuka. Cheers

[Kevin Barkman]

Hi Chi Kwai and Crimson Phoenix,

I can't say I'm familiar with Fukien White Crane or Chuka - nor the principles of "vertical ondulation of the spine". However, the Chan Si Ging that I'm familiar with certainly is not impeded by twisting / torquing / thrusting the hips forward while striking (e.g. the silk reeling found within Gow Bo Toy).

I'm not saying your example lacks power - I'm only asking could that power not be increased by turning the waist forward when striking? I, like many others, am fascinated by this expression of the Hakka Arts!

[phoenix-eye]

Interesting posts

Chu Ka Shaolin first raised my interest many years ago when I saaw an extract of Draeger's book in a magazine. At that time I was studying Tae Kwon Do and the PE fist seemed a bit esoteric to me. Since this article I have been very interested in PE fist Kung Fu and have posted recently on the subject.

The historical knowledge shown is amazing but I have 2 simple
questions to ask:-

1) Where can I get Don Draeger's book - "red cover". I've got the newer "white cover" by Mark Wiley. Websites would be useful.

2) My system - Lau Gar - has a short hand form which is devoted to PE fist trikes. It's called Charp Choi - drilling punches. Some movements are similar to those shown in Wiley's book. Do the other southern systems have PE fist forms or not? I have seen some styles that do not seem to use it or train it at all.

Thanks .

"We had a thing to settle so I did him"
Tamai, 43, was quoted by Police as saying.

[FIRE HAWK]

As i look and compare the stances and techniques in my Loren Benard Fukien White Crane book and compare them with Chuka Shaolin Phoenix Eye fist stances and techniques i can see a resembalance.The Fukien White Crane book has a form that is broken down into 22 short drill but when put togethor it is called the basic form you can also do this form in short drills like in a Chi Sao type manner .The Fukien White Crane uses the Phoenix Eye Fist Double Dragon Seeks The jade Pearls which is just like Chuka Shaolins Two Finger Pronged Technique there is a great resembalance between Chuka Shaolin and Fukien White Crane.There is also a style in Fukien province called Fukien Chuka Southern Shaolin Phoenix style that might be the same style as Chuka shaolin.Maybe Chuka Shaolin is Fukien Chu Gar southern Mantis from Fukien Province and was transplanted to Kwangtung Canton Province then to Malaysia if not it is Chu Gar Southern mantis mixed with some other style but what style.One Chu gar Southern Mantis Master told Me that if you take away the strange Chuka Shaolin Stances and use the stances that Hong Kong Chu Gar Southern Mantis uses and use Chuka Shaolins Hand techniques you would have regular Chu Gar Southern Mantis.The Chuka Stances are strange it looks like you could get kicked in the nuts in that horse stance.One guy told me that Chuka Shaolin is a Hakka Dragon style maybe Chuka Shaolin is mixed with Chu Gar Southern Mantis and a Hakka Dragon style.I know of a guy in Hawia who practices a style that he calls Phoenix Eye Fist but it has no hand forms he also practices a Pak Mei White Eyebrow hand form called Three Eagle Claw Grip form he has a website he says Pak Mei invented hi Phoenix Eye fist style his name is Orton Tk Son.I wrote so many masters asking about Chuka Shaolin its nuts I even sent the first Chuka Shaolin book to a Chow Gar Southern Mantis Master in England and he had contacts with Chu Gar masters in Hong Kong who had contacts with Chuka Shaolin in Malaysia they said it was a version of Chu Gar southern mantis.But there must be somthing from Fukien Province in Chuka Shaolin From what i understand from the second Chuka Shaolin book they say that Chuka was the original name and not Phoenix Eye fist the Phoenix Eye Fist name came later.Very strange

[Crimson Phoenix]

Ao Qi, well, in the case of the white crane, as I said earlier the stances favor stability and roots, and do not really help the movements of the waist...the way power is issued in WC won't be helped anyway by turning the hips, since the power is emitted by the spine on a vertical plane: turning the hips will only rotate the axis of the spine but won''t add energy to the ondulation because it is perpendicualr to it...then when the jing reaches the shoulders, the movements of the scapula enable to add some more energy by compressing or extending shoulders. Of course at this moment, the hips can turn a little bit, but it's really a minimal movement, at least compared to the full rotations used while reeling the silk in northern longfist styles for example...

Phoenix eye: in white crane we use the PE a lot, actually most of the time we clench fists we do it in PE (except for some particular targets where it's the knuckles that are used, such a the sternum during the "heart stunning punch" which is attacked in an upward whipping motion of the knuckles on the ring finger and pinkie).
However, we do not have particular forms training it, since PE is an integral part of our hand-forms and is the most widely used when we do not strike with the hand open...
As for the Chuka books, I got them from amazon real fast ;-)

Good training!!!

[chi-kwai]

in wing chun we learn the phoenix eye, but depending on who your teacher is, you may learn it later than others.

the wing chun phoenix eye fist is issued quite differently from chuka. wing chun's PE whips around and comes mostly from elbow and wrist rotation, whereas chuka's PE is a more classical punch with the PE fist formation.

(i hope that last sentence was coherant) ;)

--
chi kwai

[LiLong]

Hey phornix eye I just got saw your post. I got mine from Barnes and Noble so go to [URL=http://www.barnesandnoble.com Cheers.