"deadly" attacks

[Kay k]

hey i've heard recently you can kill a person with a punch to the temple! and also practicing dim mak can be used to KO someone or even kill them! does anyone know if any of this is legal in competition? ( the "not - so" dangerous ones) and more to the point can it actually be done? has anyone used these techniques in a fight? x

[PLCrane]

Links to the rules for many different tournaments are listed at http://www.grapplersworld.com/rules.htm, but I have to warn you that you won't be able to stay on that page long enough to click on any of the links, because you'll be redirected to another page (mmaringreport.com).

Hit the backspace and then click on the stop button immediately after.

I've read the UFC and Kuoshu Federation rules, and in general, they prohibit anything that would do serious permanent injury. UFC prohibits striking of pressure points, and Kuoshu makes you wear gloves.

[Merryprankster]

Deadly attacks....usually aren't. It's a FAR overblown idea. Bottom line is that great damage CAN be caused but this is not so easy to do live, against an opponent. Like a heart punch. A heart punch CAN stop the heart's beat--but the timing has to be impeccable w/respect to the heart's rhythm. So it's more of an accident.

[Felipe Bido]

Royce would choke Dim Mak...foh sure

[Tvebak]

Sort of in the same line...i just spoke to a guy who trains with the guy who developed the Hand to hand system of the danish elite military units, he said that its impossible to punch a persons nosebone into his brain.
Anyone know if its true?

[Former castleva]

Yes,I don´t know how mature it is to go trought this kinds of things in rather public forum but I guess if one searches enough...
Yes,it can kill (temple strike),and in many cases,will.
Dim mak is real,even western medicine recognizes it in their own way.You might want to check out my thread "So much to do about pressure points..." from this part of forum,if you dig a bit (or search)
When it comes to influences,dim mak strikes effects vary from strong emotional problems to KO,rather bloody urine,exruciating pain to delayed or instand death to name a few.
Theory travels along the lines of TCM healing.

[Former castleva]

Tvebak,
on nosebone thing,YES,this has been recognized to be a myth in many sources.

[yenhoi]

Quote MP:

Deadly attacks....usually aren't.

--

Kay:

Why would you want to use a death strike in a competition match? Dont you know thats why us Kung Fu guys dont compete? :eek:

Beyond competition, if you really want to hurt or kill, wouldent you want to break things like wind pipes and spines rather then trying to hit a dime sized spot, from a certain angle with the right type of pressure at the right time of day? Which one of those, considering the difficulty involved, is truely more deadly? Which one of those would you as a 'martial artist' gain more from practicing on a regular basis and find more 'useful' in your skill set?

I think MP calls that something like 'high/low percentage techniques' but whatever.

You should always consider the usefullness of your techniques/skill set vs the economy of your training time.

[yenhoi]

Quote MP:

Deadly attacks....usually aren't.

--

Kay:

Why would you want to use a death strike in a competition match? Dont you know thats why us Kung Fu guys dont compete? :eek:

Beyond competition, if you really want to hurt or kill, wouldent you want to break things like wind pipes and spines rather then trying to hit a dime sized spot, from a certain angle with the right type of pressure at the right time of day? Which one of those, considering the difficulty involved, is truely more deadly? Which one of those would you as a 'martial artist' gain more from practicing on a regular basis and find more 'useful' in your skill set?

I think MP calls that something like 'high/low percentage techniques' but whatever.

You should always consider the usefullness of your techniques/skill set vs the effeciency of your training time.

[Former castleva]

"Beyond competition, if you really want to hurt or kill, wouldent you want to break things like wind pipes and spines rather then trying to hit a dime sized spot, from a certain angle with the right type of pressure at the right time of day? Which one of those, considering the difficulty involved, is truely more deadly? Which one of those would you as a 'martial artist' gain more from practicing on a regular basis and find more 'useful' in your skill set? "
They have their place,I think.
No technique works always,but there might just be a situation where some tech. could be better than some other tech.
Besides,there are dime spot targeting techniques which can be even considered loving,but still effective.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

a sternum punch can kill. i remember learning in anatomy class that breaking off the xiphloid process (cant remember how the **** to spell it, but its the very bottom tip of the sternum) requires emergency surgery so that the bone framents do not rupture the heart or other useful organs.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

xiphoid . .. i was close

[yenhoi]

Personally I have other 'tastier' stuff on my plate that I want to eat right now before I fill up on random dim mak.

Although, one day when Im a small gnarled kung fu master, I will use my Dim Mak with great skill.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

maybe someone can verify this ...

combo: any strike to the nose that will break it or cause sufficient pain. what i was told is that the jaw will drop, even slightly, in reflex. this is followed by an immediate hook, or whatever, to the hinge of the jaw (just under the ear). the theory is that with the jaw open it doesn't take much to dislocate it when striking here.

you can push on this area and see that it definately makes sense, but it's still hearsay. also, does the jaw actually drop when you get your nose broke? i have been punched in the nose before, but never thought to pay attention.

[LEGEND]

Lot of peeps die when someone knocks them down..and then..their head hits the cement floor.

[Former castleva]

"a sternum punch can kill. i remember learning in anatomy class that breaking off the xiphloid process (cant remember how the **** to spell it, but its the very bottom tip of the sternum) requires emergency surgery so that the bone framents do not rupture the heart or other useful organs"
This is not one of the target areas I "use",but it has deadly potential,yes.
There may be blood coming out of persons mouth who gets hit there and death may follow.May affect hear,liver and stomach.Unconciousnes would not probably be any surprise either,but I don´t know this area very well.
I prefer the one under it.

"combo: any strike to the nose that will break it or cause sufficient pain. what i was told is that the jaw will drop, even slightly, in reflex. this is followed by an immediate hook, or whatever, to the hinge of the jaw (just under the ear). the theory is that with the jaw open it doesn't take much to dislocate it when striking here."
Sounds a bit new to me,but I guess it might work.
But if ago (jaw) is your target,going for the peak of it would be an easier and vulnerable target.
Funny thing I´ve got the idea that a strike to nose may break upper jaw (possibly on both sides.This is all medical information) if that kind of extra would follow,that would take the "will" out,I think (but never heard of that happening)

you can push on this area and see that it definately makes sense, but it's still hearsay. also, does the jaw actually drop when you get your nose broke? i have been punched in the nose before, but never thought to pay attention"
If you´re still talking of the small area just under ear,that struck on it´s own may already have nasty results (nerve/pp spot)


Kay K,this time not ignoring your competition question :)
I don´t think it should be legal as popping a spot may have long term effects and at times,a spot that should do effect X may also end up applying effect Z.

[Merryprankster]

GDA,

Hearsay--can it happen? Maybe. Will it happen? Probably not. More likely, you'll just knock the guy out if you hit them hard enough/consecutively. If not, they've got a fist in their face, you've inflicted some damage, and the fight is still on.

I think MAists everywhere need to stop focusing on the most potentially devestating effects of their techniques and focus on the most probable. CAN I knock somebody out with a slam? Sure. Most likely, I'm just going to hurt them.

[Kay k]

:) i agree Prankster although some so-called "deadly" attacks CAN be deadly. mostly it'll just be incredibly painful!

[neptunesfall]

considering all the variables in a fight....
any attack has the potential to be deadly, whether it's intended or not.

[Merryprankster]

true, neptune, but to discuss them as "deadly attacks," is silly.

[Chang Style Novice]

"I think MAists everywhere need to stop focusing on the most potentially devestating effects of their techniques and focus on the most probable."

I agree completely. Although you should keep those most devastating possible effects in mind when working them, as a goal to aim for.

Furthermore, all techniques should be practiced with possible counters in mind, and possible counters to the counters, and so on.

[The Willow Sword]

depending on the amount of force put to the temple,,You CAn cause hemmoraging and possible death. the temple i beleive in the meridian theory is the GB8 which is a sensitive point.

as far as other Deadly tactics or areas to strike on the body.
with enough force behind the strike as in a kick ,,,the H1 or heart one point (which is located about an inch or two under the arm pit) you can facilitate a heart frib or a stop.

ever been rabbit punched in the side of the rib cage,,,,i know i have,,it hurts and DOES facilitate an immune system drop. i know this from experience.

i also agree with Neptunesfall that any attack can be potentially deadly.
MRTWS

[Former castleva]

"depending on the amount of force put to the temple,,You CAn cause hemmoraging and possible death. the temple i beleive in the meridian theory is the GB8 which is a sensitive point. "
Yes.
It´s quite a killer as it actually does two fatal things at once,if you hit right.
When hit,muscles of temple region tighten/tense up powerfully and the artery running trough the area is damaged.
Then there is the pressure point you´re talking about (you mentioned gall bladder point,I thought it was stomach point but thinking about it now you might be right.I might check that one out from a book) Then it combines the pressure point damage in it...
But there are many other less lethal influences which may pop out,if it does not carry away.

[Former castleva]

"with enough force behind the strike as in a kick ,,,the H1 or heart one point (which is located about an inch or two under the arm pit) you can facilitate a heart frib or a stop. "
nuki-te (spearhand) or a finger attack might just do that.
I don´t know if it´s the same point we´re talking but while in general,armpit strike may hurt and release a grip,there´s a point/area in armpit itself which could cause instant malfunction/death (which may not be the worst case as it may cause delayed death trough hours or even days of slight suffocation-greater suffocation of various disturbing effects)
It seems western medicine might find some support for this for there are various nerves (pressure points),blood vessels etc. at the area,but I can´t explain that so much further.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

"true, neptune, but to discuss them as "deadly attacks," is silly."

right . .. but i thought the discussion was in the context of what
could happen. even the thread title itself denoted a bit of sarcasim with the quotes around deadly. so basically i agree with you, but i don't think anyone here said they expected the possible resuls 100% of the time. just discussing the possiblities.

[The Willow Sword]

i think that point IS Stomach 8. i was thinking GB,,but that point is located atthe base of the ear where the lower and upper jaw connects.

[{i^(]

but to forestall the inevitable 'how'd you do that in UFC?' argument, I'd like to propose something:

Not all of these techniques are lethal, IIRC, so couldn't you (not you, former castleva, just a general 'you') set up a competition involving ONLY dim mak, and have lots of TCM guys on hand to treat the losers and winners? Wouldn't this prove, well, something? Just a thought, and it might be thought-less.

[Former castleva]

"i think that point IS Stomach 8. i was thinking GB,,but that point is located atthe base of the ear where the lower and upper jaw connects."
Oh,that clears it up.Thanks for the note.

{i^(
That´s an interesting idea in a way but I´m not sure if I completely understand by proving?
I think this kind of studies should only be applied in totally controlled enviroment.And when in controlled enviroment,certain things like person´s age (who is getting affected),possible limitations/sicknesses or/and internal organ issues should be remembered.
There are points which can,as far as my limited knowledge goes,can be used for training/demonstration things,requiring that the same person is also able to helpt the victim recover.
We must also understand that many points do carry various influences on their own (in one point itself) while you could safely say that "let´s see,this one would possibly cause a knock-out if pressed..."but if the power is strong enough a heart attack may follow.
Then here come the points which cause immediate effects which in some cases,cannot be healed,and there are many.
Not to forget those which cause quick death which even modern science can´t handle.

[{i^(]

By 'proving' I mean: there is a kind of confusion about the whole dim mak premise, at least for myself.

If these are simply points that one can 'touch', and people die (depending on various factors), then there would be mysterious deaths abounding from persons touching themselves at random times of day, or getting their hands shook at say, noon. Doesn't happen, as far as I know.

So, looking at the other side of the equation, it's the kind of hit (power-wise) done by the dim mak guy that does it. But then it follows that it's not the dim mak point that does it, necessarily.

So, then it's the interaction of the two that does it, right? Maybe, maybe not. I've never seen this tested, and I'm not sure how one could go about it. A contest would/could be controlled, so that's what I meant to say.

[Former castleva]

{i^(
Thanks for being specific and replying.
I believe you are not alone with those worries,there seem to be some mystical clouds hiding this issue.

"If these are simply points that one can 'touch', and people die (depending on various factors), then there would be mysterious deaths abounding from persons touching themselves at random times of day, or getting their hands shook at say, noon. Doesn't happen, as far as I know. "

Yeah,that´s something to think of.
The name "death touch"/dim mak may sound a bit romantic even though I believe it was never meant to be.There are those myths of some ancient warrior monks touching their opponent´s leaving them dead :cool: that´s what they say.
It has been noticed that a person with very high sense of sensitivity which I mean chi,could shock a person with a light touch (but of course in modern times those persons would be a few) Besides that,plain gentle touching of a point that you´re talking about is very good for healing (say you stimulate a point which helps you to sleep) to disturb the chi you use the same point but you don´t just "touch" it,this is where some mystical myth stuff feeds you with misunderstanding-you manipulate it "violently" (touch is a drilling press,rub or sharp strike.Where the last time in healing-wise you had a good night sleep,now you do have terrible insomnia and you weaken)

"So, looking at the other side of the equation, it's the kind of hit (power-wise) done by the dim mak guy that does it. But then it follows that it's not the dim mak point that does it, necessarily. "

proper force,angle,location,time,form...these all matter.While for another point a palm slap may do the job,phoenix eye will certainly fit better for another spot.Not to mention the correct angle to strike with,enough of force (which may also have things to do with your level of sensitivity and what you "wish" to commit) exactly right location,not nearly right location and proper time (I shall really note though,that even though the time may not be right,you can compensate by putting more force into whatever your attack is,and even without more force,you will still be likely to affect some) Because these things matter,it also explains why our bodies may not collapse when we accidentally knock our shoulder against a wall.
BTW,especially at higher levels,it is also necessary to understand that using plain muscle to force the effect may not be enough,you have to join your own energy and deliver power from your body etc. (that´s a bit difficult concept and I hope you remember while reading that I´m not very familiar with this advanced level matter)

"So, then it's the interaction of the two that does it, right? Maybe, maybe not. I've never seen this tested, and I'm not sure how one could go about it. A contest would/could be controlled, so that's what I meant to say"

Allright,can´t say much more to that except my choises of words in my last post would seem to limit this kind of competition into a rather limited experience,but that´s if my idea works.

When it comes to testing this somehow reminds me of the personal breaktroughs of the committed martial artists of the old times,like samurai who tested the practicality of their swords on criminals with no hope and various related experiences.



:)

[Braden]

Guys, 'dim mak' is not a system of martial arts. It's a generic term, the chinese term, for an aspect of martial arts that is as present in boxing as in taijiquan. In traditional chinese martial arts is it based upon a traditional chinese understanding of the body? Yes - what else do you expect? Think about it for a second.

People have a tendancy to over-react and therefore misinterpret things from other cultures. It happens constantly in threads on this topic.

[{i^(]

Excellent point, as ever, Braden. But dim mak is one of those rather mysterious terms bruited about by persons, some of whom are just out to bilk money, that seems very unlikely on first, second, and third hearing. I'm not trained in it, so of course my take is very skeptical. FAIK, its the best thing on earth.

That said, don't let this deter any of you from discussing it in further detail. I don't want to be seen as squelching things- not my intention.

[Braden]

You're quite right. But there's people out there in anything just trying to bilk money.

You're not taught anything in class about where or how to hit or grasp people?

[{i^(]

Sweeping generalizations are always dangerous, and in Wing Chun they are probably THE most dangerous things, LOL. It's one of the reasons I like hanging out on the general lists. Really.

But, to answer the question, *based on my experiences and knowledge thus far*, it is not treated the same way/in the same detail as many other forms of kung fu seem to do it. WC aims to be practical, so the question is not specifically framed as where when how to hit, but CAN you hit in the first place? It does no good to argue particulars if you can't land the strike. All strikes are "aimed" to the centerline (really, helped to the center by the opponent), although some lineages aim primarily for areas on the head/throat, IIRC.

And, as for my lineage in particular, very little is discussed or practiced, application-wise. You need the 'engine' of how the art moves first, without leaving the path of learning it. Well, so goes the teaching theory, anyhow. It's still a practical concern: what good is it to know what it does, if you can't do it? See? I'll admit it's pretty odd at times, but I'm a lot more open-minded about what a particular technique can do than some, and I'm willing to experiment with unlikely responses. [standard paranoiac disclaimer to WCers reading this: thats my opinion, please get a life]

Now, some lineages do study dim mak, but IIRC that is a higher level than where I'm at now. Frankly, I've not heard it discussed in my lineage, but that doesn't mean it's not there to be learned. [They're pretty traditional, sshh! LOL]

Sorry for writing so much. It's a complicated thing to explain.

[Merryprankster]

GDA--

Sorry! That was a general comment and in no way was it directed at you! I find deadly strikes and the like to be kind of silly--but I had already established that and didn't really need to apply that generalization again, I guess :)

Cheers

James

[Daredevil]

If you strike with enough power, your strike is potentially deadly. There's no mystique in that.

Sure, certain points in the body are more susceptible. That's pretty obvious, too.

Since I don't doubt the effect of acupuncture (and dunno why somebody would -- go out and test it), I'm quite sure those points can be used in combat. Hell, a knowledge of western medicine can have a bearing on how and where you land your strikes. I don't think there's any fantastically mysterious points out there : your opponent is not going explode.

How practical this point striking is then, is questionable IMHO. If you're skilled enough and powerful enough there is no need to strike these points. If you have enough kung fu -- that's all you need.

Of course, any type of aiming a strike is sort of "dim mak", kinda what Braden seemed to imply (?), too. No mystery to that.

I don't believe in any point that gets you killed by just touching it. What I do know to be true is a skilled practicioner punching with one-inch-power, ie. not requiring the fist (for example) to travel more than just a inch or two, making the punch look pretty impressive and not much more than just a touch. Baji is pretty famous for this. Taiji develops similar power. Those are arts I'm familiar with. I believe the touch-and-KO myths come from such things.

[HuangKaiVun]

The word "touch" is confusing from a Western perspective.

From an Eastern perspective, "touch" can mean "grab" or "strike".

Western science has long proven that there are some really deadly points on the body that if struck or grabbed can cause death.

Depending on the need, some people just might need to strike those points. If you are a woman who's trying to fight off a would-be rapist, you had better have some knowledge of those points so that you can have a framework of where to aim your attacks.

My experience is that squeezing or striking some of those deadly points can be really traumatic. I've practiced on myself some of that stuff, and I have had to exert extreme caution.

Trust me, most of us (including myself) WOULD die if some of those points (particularly the 36 killing ones) were successfully grabbed.

Training one's martial art to fit that science hardly seems unreasonable or unrealistic to me.

[Former castleva]

Those 36 points can be found from CMA dim mak,even though there are countless points and all not possibly even understood,there are some kind of list made on how many points do this or that (but one has to remember that a point which belongs to a certain category may in some cases,cause other effects too)

"Training one's martial art to fit that science hardly seems unreasonable or unrealistic to me"
Yeah,it´s one part,important one and there´s more.
This,I think,is essential to understand.

[Daredevil]

"Western science has long proven that there are some really deadly points on the body that if struck or grabbed can cause death."

Any links or references to these studies or other examples?

I'm purely curious in an intellectual sense and my question should not be taken as potentially offensive. Just thought I'd stress that. :)

[HuangKaiVun]

I'm no longer in medicine, but there are countless stories of people dying (particularly young athletes in sports or martial arts training) from this type of stuff.

Also, accupuncture is recognized by most Western medical physicians as a legitimate medical art.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
If you are a woman who's trying to fight off a would-be rapist, you had better have some knowledge of those points so that you can have a framework of where to aim your attacks.

More like, you'd better fight like an animal to rip off/punch/bite anything you can. I don't think specific points come into it with the panic response. Of course... if their well-enough trained, they don't panic... :rolleyes: but then if they're well-enough trained, hopefully they'll be able to spot and neutralise/kick ass, before they get taken down/dragged off.


Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
My experience is that squeezing or striking some of those deadly points can be really traumatic. I've practiced on myself some of that stuff, and I have had to exert extreme caution.

I'd stop that if I were you!!! :p Have you ever knocked yourself out?! :D That HKV, he can really grab his own ass without a flashlight!

There you go Daredevil: no links as such... but a mention ofcountless stories, HKV's forte. Well, that's me sold!

HKV, you're more than welcome to find any of these remarks potentially offensive! :D

[Chang Style Novice]

If you've ever seen a one-punch KO in a boxing match, you know that such things are possible. If you've ever had your trachea closed by a tight choke, you know such things are possible. If you've ever passed out because of closed carotid arteries, you know such things are possible. If you've ever bumped your funny bone and lost use of your hand for a minute, you know such things are possible.

What do links and the JAMA have on real life?

[Merryprankster]

...and if you've ever done a full contact sport then you know that such things are possible, but not necessarily probable.

Possibilities are nice little beasts, but not what I stake my life on.

[Former castleva]

Yep.And sometimes boxers fall in the ring after being accidentally hit to a pressure point,not a classic boxers knock-out huh.

[Chang Style Novice]

MP Did I ever say easy or likely? I'm pretty sure I didn't. And as far as I can tell, that wasn't the question.

That said, there's a guy who studied aikijujtsu in my taiji class, and sometimes during push hands, hell give a little poke to a spot on the neck or arm or ribs or something, and it hurts like hell for a second and aches for days.

I've asked him to ease back on this stuff, but my point remains. You don't need to knock someone out or kill 'em for a pressure point technique to work. Sometimes creating a little time or space for a more traditional attack is all you want.

(on edit)

For example: when I took a few judo lessons, I learned a rear choke from the ground that presumes the target has his chin tucked too close to get under. So, you jam the knuckle of your thumb in the spot behind the jawbone where it meets the ear to get him to turn his head. With that done, you can slip your arm around his neck, clasp the other hand, and yank back to close the trachea. I don't see any reason a similar use of sensitive spots couldn't work in other contexts.

[Merryprankster]

Good point CSN. Looks like I owe you a pint. :D