Back to Basics, How's Your Horse?

[Water Dragon]

I'm back into solid basics focusing on stance and footwork right now. I'm curious as to everyone's Horse Stance as we haven't fed the horse in a while here.

Here's mine: Shoulder width. The actual distance between the feet is the same as the length of your leg from the knee to the heel. Thighs should be parallel, the feet should point straight ahead, and the spine is elongated (raise the head and slightly tuck the butt in)

I hit the 2 minute mark last night with a goal of 3 minutes by November.

So, how's your horse?

[Suntzu]

my horse sucks... i have been thinkin bout getting back to the basics... i deffinitly might have to do that... 2 minutes??? i WAS getting there...

i was taught butt out tho:confused:

[Water Dragon]

We have a version with both feet together, thighs parallel and butt out. It's called the Three Flats (feet flat, thighs flat, arms flat) It's very similar to the horse but designed to help throws.

[Xebsball]

hey hello how you doin

now i do san ti shi, havent done horse no more.
used to 9 minutes before i started taking xing yi quan.

[Hau Tien]

At the school I train at, stance training is a part of our testing.

For our first test, we have to hold horse, ding (AKA Cat), and bow and arrow stances for 3 minutes each.

My last test had me holding all 3 for 7 minutes each. That was killer.

My next test, if I do well enough, will only involve a 10 minute horse (for the stance portion of the test, anyway)... I'm quite glad about that... holding ding stance for 7 minutes was murder.

So... my target for horse stance is now 10 minutes... some of my sihings have mentioned that after 15 mins, their legs go numb.

Oh... as a side note, on the black sash test, you have to hold a 30 minute horse. OUCH.

[Water Dragon]

But what horse? I know a lot of people do a wide horse with the feet splayed out. That one can be held for signifigantly (sp?) longer.

[HuangKaiVun]

My horse stance is as good as it always has been - or needs to be - for me.

Though I try to point my toes straight ahead, in combat my toes tend to point outwards a bit. However, I still retain the ability to use the lower leg to stop incoming kicks.

I can shuffle back and forth in the horse, and I can easily switch sides. I can also go from side to side in horse when I add my circular Nei Jia footwork.

When I issue hits, I put my whole body behind them as much as I can. Similarly, I'm able to withstand charges by bigger opponents - up to a point.

What I DON'T do is hold stationary horse in practice. A stance is dead to me if I can't get in and out of it at will.

[Merryprankster]

Oh fine. We fed and groomed him last night. "Horse Stance," is a 4-1 favorite at Belmont!

[Tvebak]

How about non existing=?
I really had to start all over again after starting doing xingyi, my teacher use a really close very hard horse stance as part of training...and i had always done the easy wide ones.
But the small version seems to be good for my knees (only if i stretch before doing it).
The wide version was a killer for my knees.
Water dragon: im sorry, it may be my bad english, but i dident quite grasp the stance you described...could you describe it ín some other way for me?

[Chang Style Novice]

Water Dragon -

When you say 'thighs parallel' do you mean parallel to the ground? If so, I tried horse your way just now, and it throws my balance way back (my butt is behind my heels) so it forces me to lean forward to stay standing?

Anyway, my horse is okay, I guess. I put my feet about 1.5 to 2x shoulder width, toes forward, knees above feet, thighs elevated about 30 degrees from parallel to the ground. I hold this for about two minutes (a guess, I don't time myself.)

[Water Dragon]

Stand with you feet about shoulder witdth apart. Drop down onto your right knee. That's where your left foot should be. Now, keep your back straight and squat down until you thighs are parallel to the floor. Now, groan and wail while your legs shake. :D

[Former castleva]

Started training it yesterday again,having been doing that today.
I don´t hold it for a long time,but I use it in various qi-gong exercises and stationary still rooting.
Ever tried picking a couple of bricks,laying them on their "spine" for a distance of about your shoulder width?
That´s nice,more hard rooting,builds up your balance (I also do non-martial stance training on bricks just to build up root and strength)
Standing in horse on TOP of the bricks,well that´s hard,I won´t try that for a while...

[fa_jing]

I've left the low horse practice for a while - now focusing on jumping rope for 15 minutes and my Wing Chun horse. Will get back to it, though! I recommend doing a back/hamstrings pose or exercise afterwards, and making sure to adequately stretch the quadriceps.

[General Kwei]

What exactly would this Horse Stance be for?

[Fu-Pow]

Your horsestance seems to be too narrow to be practical?. I think a deep horse stance should be about:

-1.5-2x shoulder width across

-Toes point straight forward to almost forward (this will vary in individuals based on the shape of the hip, eg. girls feet tend to point more outward).

-Make sure you keep the whole foot on the ground
(although my CLF Sifu tends do go up sligthly on the outside edge of the foot)

-Open the knees, make sure the knee is almost directly over the ankle. (This is the biggest mistake I see begginners make, their knees collapse inward. Your stance should have a box shape, not a triangle.)

-As you sink down keep a straight line between the nose and the coccyx (tail bone). Don't tilt your tailbone too much forward or stick you butt out. This axis formed between the nose and the coccyx will tend to tilt forward the lower that you go. This keeps the hip flexor muscles relaxed. But remember to keep the axis in alignment.

-Each style has different "depth" requirement depending on rootedness vs. mobility. So check with your Sifu on this point.

-Relax the neck (imagine your head is being pulled up by a string from the crown, but don't"push" it up)

-Relax the shoulders (you can put your hands/fists on your hips.)

-Open the chest to harness the natural tonic qualities of the torso, but don't intentionally stick it out (military style).

-Don't bounce up and down in your stance. Hold your position. If you feel like you need to stand up, go lower instead.

-I'd say 2 mins in a correct, low strong stance is a good goal for begginners. More advanced students might shoot for 5-10 mins. However, I've heard that too much static training can be hard on health, ie you leak "chi", whatever that means. But I'm sure people would argue with me on that point.

There ya go...everything I know about horse stance.

[yenhoi]

I hold tan sau in wc horse for 15 minutes on each side once a day.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by General Kwei
What exactly would this Horse Stance be for?

I'm sure there's more, but these are the applications I know of:

1. Oh $hit Stance. Someone grabs or clinches you and your about to get worked. Drop into the horse and drive your arms against the body (front) or out (back). This compromises/breaks the other guys structure so you can re-group

2. Dropping power. Get a hold of the opponents body, take out the slack and drop into horse to "yank" him out of his root.

3. Shift from a San Ti into a horse to deliver power with the lead side of the body. this can be a fist or an elbow but doesn't seem to work well with a shoulder. I think this one is common to all Norhttern systems.

4. Shoulder stroke. Lean into the opponent at the same time you drop into a horse. Again, this is lead side power.

5. Hip throw. Once your set up, you can drop into a horse stance. This drives your @ss into the opponents hip and effectively breaks the opponent at the hip so you can throw him. Chinese kuzushi at work.

6. Shoulder throw. Come in with a horse stance and raise up to set your shoulder throw.

7. Wrap the leg with your shin and drop into horse stance. No, this wont break anything, except of course for his structure at the leg which lets you do all kinds of nasties to him.

8. General conditioning to let you fight with those oh-so-important bent knees for power.

I'm not sure how a wide horse is used in combat. We use it for some developmental drills, but not in a "live" situation.

[Peter Giles]

3 mins??? Come on. That's nothing I can do a Horse stance for 45 mins, maybe more. That's what I was taught first, sustaining stances for a long period of time to build a lot of strength.
A real challenge is an hour and a half.
3 mins. lmao.

[Water Dragon]

Should I, or does someone else want the honors???

[fa_jing]

wow man you are a fuc$king expert. can i send you money or naked pictures? if i see you i am running cause you definitely will kick my ass in no time.

:rolleyes:

[ewallace]

Does anyone else picture Peter chasing fa_jing Southpark-style while still in his ultimate horse stance?

[phoenix-eye]

I've been training horse for a few weeks now. Started at 2 mins and have been adding 10 secs per non class day. - days when I dont do a KF class.

I'm now up to 4mins.

This may still be rubbish but its half as rubbish as when I started.

I use the countdown function on the mobile phone - it beeps for the last 5 secs. Best sound in the world.........

[Water Dragon]

I'd like to hear how other people and systems use the horse stance. Maybe we can get some good ideas.

[fa_jing]

The "Scoop": He wraps his arms around you from behind, you take one leg across and behind his leg stepping into sort of a bow stance, then twist to shift to horse stance which takes his legs out. You have to get your hips fairly low in order for it to work.

[Daredevil]

Well, the baji horsestance has been discussed elsewhere.

Personally, I hold the stance with feet somewhat wider than my shoulder width, feet rather strictly forward. I've found that the "correct" horsestances of folks usually tend to vary a bit depending on bodytype. I have rather long legs ..

The time I can stay depends on the day, really. It's surprisingly inconsistent and I usually don't push myself to the very limits, because I want my feet to be able to do the same training the next day. I hold the stance from 3 to 5 times, for 2 minutes and slightly less on the following ones. Currently, I could stretch it to three somewhat easily and have held it for five at times (but that is torture).

I find -- like most things -- that discussing the horsestance is a bit difficult. It has to be experimented width. So what follows is very personal in that sense. I find the best "spot" for the horse can be found by sinking properly into it -- there is that one point where the stance turns from hard to extreme. Go to the extreme and relax and find power in the structure. If done properly, it becomes less difficult and you feel rooted. That's my method. When you get really tired, relaxing into that proper "spot" gets a bit too difficult (too easy to slack off just on the "edge" of it) and the stance suffers. That's one reason I like holding the stance for less time, but every day (and a couple of times), rather than for more time and more rarely.

IMHO, practising the stance shouldn't become mechanical so you don't fall into your own traps. You should be aware with an experimenting mindset. Be mindful and learn, don't just sit there.

Those are my thoughts.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

mine is shoulder width or slightly more with feet parallel (im much more comfortable with them pointed out slightly so that's usually what happens), thighs are a little lower than 45 degrees but not quite paralell. i point my tailbone straigt to the ground, sink and root, straighten my back, sink and root, pull my shoulderblades back, allow them to sink, and then sink and root.

"Stand with you feet about shoulder witdth apart. Drop down onto your right knee. That's where your left foot should be. Now, keep your back straight and squat down until you thighs are parallel to the floor. Now, groan and wail while your legs shake."

that's differant from your regular horse right? we have that stance too, and though i can't remember what the hell sifu calls it, it's actually one of my favorate.

that was a nice list of applications too. i particularly liked the oh ****, yanking them off their root, and the shoulder strike (we call it tiger leaning on wolf). i have also noticed that the majority of the jujitsu applications i have learned end in a solid, shoulder width, horse stance. or at least they should. i have much better control of the guy in the armlock when i'm rooted and stable.

what's a san ti? from what your describing it sounds like the strikes we use that sink and lean (much more sinking than leaning) into the opponent. the shoulders should be lined up about 90 degrees to the target.

[Daredevil]

Oh, one more thing. I used to do stance training at an old school for 45 minutes as well. We did switch stances though (so it wasn't just one stance for 45 minutes) from bow to horse and so on. I thought it was all good.

I started Baji later and now I know I wasn't holding real stances -- wasn't relaxed, wasn't rooted. I was just struggling.

There's lots of small differences.

ps. before anyone gets all excited, I'm not saying Baji is any better, merely that the Baji I'm doing now is better taught than what I did before, meaning that there are different ways of practising things. You need to have a good teacher and be mindful of the details that are shown to you.

[Water Dragon]

Daredevil. I love the Baji horse stance, especially the "triangles" you guys go for. I've played with it and it seems to create a much more "springy" energy. We force ours down and the feeling is like you have "Iron Bars" in your legs when you get done. I hear ya on the depends on the day stuff too. But I'm a numbers guy so I like to quantify things.

GDA, the knee thing is just to measure the stance. After you measure it out, you stand back up and sink into a regular stance. The San Ti is just a 60/40 back stance. What I'm trying to describe is: Drive off that back foot. This will have you pivot on the ball of the foot into a horse so that you arew side-on to the opponent. What it does is drive your bodyweight forward in a very small space. Tough to get, but really useful once you do.

[Crimson Phoenix]

What?? *rubs eyes* I must be dreaming...is this what I think? A GONG FU THREAD?? :D

Anyway, here's our horse: 2x shoulder width approx, butt tucked in gently, back straight, thighs parallel to the ground (although during combat or other situation the angle can be varying from 0 to 45°), and very important, feet have to be either perfectly parallel or slightly pointing in. Pointing them out is a definite no-no, because the hip angle makes it much harder to pull out a powerful stop kick to the legs of your opponent.
Also, the shins are as vertical as you can. In fact, the power should go straight down in the ground and to verify that we sometimes practice our horse stance standing on bricks (on the side, or much harder, on the top). At the sightest dispersion of force on the side, we fall off the bricks...
I seen Yang Jwing Ming hold a horse stance (and a jin ji du li, and also a "white crane soaring posture") on 2 bricks piled on their lenghts :eek:

[Daredevil]

WD, what you are describing with the santi-to-horse is the -- as I see it -- the beginning core of Baji force generation, at least roughly so. I don't think the Baji stance that is used to train this is quite Santi though, at least the hands are "reversed" (not same hand and foot forward, creating a bit of a twisting feeling).

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

"the knee thing is just to measure the stance."

oh ok . . . i understood you were doing that to measure the stance, but i thought you came up with one foot in front of the other like you had taken a step while in the horse stance.

"What I'm trying to describe is ... "

sounds like almost the exact same thing except our weight is generally 50/50 and you usually keep the feet positioned in the "L" shape, though i have seen some students rotate into a full horse. same power gereration though.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

cp . .. that's a really cool trainin meathod. i'll be getting two bricks for my basement tonight. i think ill also mention it to sifu when i go back to class or next time i talk to him.

[Xebsball]

The weight distribution in san ti is not necessarily 60-40 (back-front), it can be (and is quite comonly) 70-30 or even others.

Here is some extra info:

http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/splitting/santi.html
http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/archives/meikle.html

[SevenStar]

I'm going back to basics too, with my kung fu anyway. I've been doing stances and drills lately. alot of calesthenics too.

Here's a question I have for you guys... Why do want a 45 min horse? it's not making the legs any stronger, only giving them extra endurance, and there are other ways to get that. Learning to root and also chi development, sure, but surely you don't have to have such a long horse to develop that.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

actually i don't get it either. the only time i have ever heard of our sifu making students do horse for that long is for punishment.

[TaoBoy]

My horse stance is shoulder-width. However, it's outside the shoulders - ie. the feet are slightly outside the shoulders. So, a little wider than shoulder-width, strictly speaking.

[SevenStar]

I agree it'll make them stronger to a point, but it's a bodyweight only exercise, meaning that resistance can't increase... If someone does squats and another does horse stance, the guy who squats will have stronger legs. the guy that has horse will have legs with more muscle endurance.

[Serpent]

Yeah, but it's all academic unless you can have your picture taken with two dudes standing on your thighs while you're in your horse stance!

The way I was taught to measure out the horse was this:

Stand with your feet together
Open your toes to a 45 degree angle
Open your heels to 45 degrees the other way
Open your toes to 45 degrees again
Move your heels out to straighten your feet paralell

That's your horse stance width. Now sit straight down, keep the feet paralell, knees over toes, pushing the stance wide, back straight, upper body relaxed, tailbone tucked in. Keep your hands on your hips with your elbows slightly forward and grip the ground with your feet. The nine points of the feet should remain in contact with the ground to maintain good rooting.

And holding it anything after 3 or 4 minutes will not increase strength any more, but it will increase endurance and can be used as a type of Zhang Zhuan exercise. I would suggest, however, that anything over about 20 mins or half an hour would be bad. Stagnant chi and all that.

Always do some plyos after stance training too, to move the blood around and push out stangnant chi.

Well, that's my 0.02! ;)

[Royal Dragon]

Stand with your feet together
Open your toes to a 45 degree angle
Open your heels to 45 degrees the other way
Open your toes to 45 degrees again
Move your heels out to straighten your feet paralell

Reply]
Yup, this was the way i was taugh too.

I was also taught Water Dragon's method, only with the distance of a fist between the feet during the "Measuring" posture used before the horse stance.

Now that I'm working with those guys, I do it their way quite often for a total of 3 horse stances. Personally, I prefer the wider one myself. I feel I'm more stable, and I can move smoother.

[Daredevil]

I agree -- if you just want stronger legs you're better off doing squats. Stance training isn't just about strength training, though. How I see it, the strength training part of it is just preliminary. You have to have the strength to train the good stuff : your structure. Then there's the chi development side of things, which I try not to speculate on too much.

As for sitting there 45 minutes, I'm nowehere close to that yet so I don't worry about it. I'll continue the practise as long as I seem to be getting something out of it.

I do recall my teacher saying something that stance training (time-wise) beyond a certain point isn't all that useful. Can't for the life of me remember how long it was, though.

[Chang Style Novice]

I still want to see a photo or something of someone with their feet at shoulder width, thighs parallel to the ground, and back straight. I'm not convinced it can be done without toppling backwards on account of body weight being shifted so far back (behind the feet.)

But I'm eager to be proven wrong!

[neptunesfall]

i'll see if i can take a pic this weekend, chang.
my PC isn't hooked up and that's the one i have the digicam on.
**** windows only software.

that aside, using running shoes ( the ones that have the forward tilt ) for stances....not such a good idea.

[General Kwei]

Waterdragon, you said your thighs are parellel to the ground your pelvis is tucked in and your back is straight correct? Did you find that it took you some time to get your back to relax so you could get it straight, with your thighs parellel to the ground? I just started the horse stance training not too long ago and I am finding that it is hard to get my back straight.

Also, this may sound like a weird question, but do any of you get headaches while doing this?

[Chang Style Novice]

Thanks Neptune. I'm looking forward to seeing it.

And yeah, I always do stances either in bare feet or kwoon slippers.

[Water Dragon]

It took about 5-6 months to hit the proper position and I still struggle to keep it. I suggest taking the thighs down to parallel and then "pulling" your back into a straight position. I think you'll always struggle with the stance, but I think that's the point as well. See the other horse thread for more on this.

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
I still want to see a photo or something of someone with their feet at shoulder width, thighs parallel to the ground, and back straight. I'm not convinced it can be done without toppling backwards on account of body weight being shifted so far back (behind the feet.)

But I'm eager to be proven wrong!

Back Straight <> Back vertical. Back straight means the line between your crown and your tailbone is extended as straight as possible. However, given thighs parallel to the ground and feet at shoulder width, your back will not be vertical, but rather tilted forward, albeit minimally.

OTOH, in the Wing Chun Yee Gee Kim Yung Ma, the back is both straight and vertical, for comparison.

[neptunesfall]

gk - breath regularly and relax your neck and face...only two things that i can think of off the top of my head that would give you headaches

i'll probably set the pc back up tonite...see if i can take a pic tomorrow.

[Chang Style Novice]

Okay, with a forward tilt of the trunk I can see it working. Still, when I try, I lean pretty far forward.

[Water Dragon]

Try pushing your knees forward so that you feel a stretch on your instep. I'm pretty sure "Knees not over toes" is only a bow stance requirement.

[Fu-Pow]

Royal Dragon Wrote:

Stand with your feet together
Open your toes to a 45 degree angle
Open your heels to 45 degrees the other way
Open your toes to 45 degrees again
Move your heels out to straighten your feet paralell

Ours is just the opposite:

Open your heels to 45 degrees
Open your toes to 45 degrees
Open your heel again to 45 degrees again
Moves your toes out to straighten your feet parallel

Go figure? Actually I just tried both ways they pretty much give the same width. My way might be a bit wider.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Stand with your feet together
Open your toes to a 45 degree angle
Open your heels to 45 degrees the other way
Open your toes to 45 degrees again
Move your heels out to straighten your feet paralell

Reply]
Yup, this was the way i was taugh too.

I was also taught Water Dragon's method, only with the distance of a fist between the feet during the "Measuring" posture used before the horse stance.

Now that I'm working with those guys, I do it their way quite often for a total of 3 horse stances. Personally, I prefer the wider one myself. I feel I'm more stable, and I can move smoother.

You are definitely gonna be more stable with a shoulder width or wider as opposed to the three flats that we use. Remember though, it's not a static stance. You won't fight from there, you won't disrupt a stance from it - you throw from it. you are basically training to keep strong and balanced while you are in that position, as when you use it in fighting, you have someone else's weight on you as you attempt a throw (think ippon seionage and rhino gazes at the moon).

[Royal Dragon]

Yeah, I just did it both ways to, and it ended up the same.

Water Dragon, The stance you are describing is a bit different than a normal horse stance as you are leaning forward abit. There is no way to do what you describe without falling over, or bending you knees so far over your toes it becomes a squat.

When I have seen you do the stance, you are leaning forward quite a bit. From a physics stand piont, to do any better than I saw you do would be impossible.

Seven Star, yes, it is used transitionally. in additon to throwing, it can be used to suddenly change your height and set up for other attacks like low groin or rib stikes. With a sudden drop combined with a shuffel step into horse stance, with a punch to the ribs, you can generate quite a bit of power, in an area noone expects you to be anything but off balance. I've also launched up from a deep horse stance with uppper cuts from the side door. under a guys guard, and clocked them for a KO. My other hand protected me from the arm I was going around. They never saw it comming. They would often be turning to face me as I did it. A really sneky move if you have the flow for it.

As far as the length of time holding, once you can old it an hour, you won't get any substantial benifits. Practically though, you should be holding a variety of stances for 3-5 or maybe as much as 10 minutes before switching. Just do enough stances to work out for an hour. It's better than only holding Horse, as the variety effects more body change, but then a one hour horse stance is damm hard, and definately high up there on the Bragging rights scale.

[No_Know]

Fu-Pow's toes out first and Serpent's heels out first start from feet together. While I can see reason for them and the other (s) saying this is what they do, I think this is not correct. I think that where they say 45, it should be 90.

Heels or toes first to theoretically would be (starting from feet together):

45°
(then pivoting from the part just moved heel/ball)
90°
(then pivoting from the part just moved heel/ball)
90°
(then pivoting from the part just moved heel/ball)
45°
Which should get the feet parallel to each other.

In compensation for different abilities and builds (designs) these are likely guideline angles. Final povot should make parrallel best one can.

If you attain prefection, fine. Approaoching it is the most one can be expected to do.~-Ernie Moore Jr.

[No_Know]

I think that when a female or child or man or male is raped they have a feeling of, "I can't stop this. I want this to stop." And it continues until the raping person exits. It can go on for years to follow.

That anguish seems at least similar to, standing and it hurts but you feel you are supposed to, or that you have to, keep there.

While there can be this in doing squats (weight machine), the Horse-riding stance does this over-comming mental anguish more-so than squats.

Strength or Power are merely by-products of Horse-riding stance. Flexibility of the legs also occures. I don't think most would agree that squats produce both Strength And Flexibility of the legs simultaneously.

Meditative breathing can occure from a Horse-riding stance. After doing a form in a class, I would do the school puh-ups, two or three times. Keeping my hands on the ground stutter-hop my feet to near between my hands; exercise my wrists then stand-up then do a non-Northern, approaching thighs parallel Horse-riding stance feet parallel. This seems to quiet and regulate my breathing in a few seconds where else wise I couldn't get my breath for several minutes perhaps.

The longer one can stand in Horse-riding stance not only greater legs endurance, But, Over All Endurance.

There might be many things that can give individually what the Horse-riding stance does all at once. One hour to do all these at once seems more efficient then taking the time to do even some of them individually.

Perhaps some-such, there is more to the stance than merely standing.~