Have you heard of......

[sifuchuck]

Has anyone here heard of Sin The'? A student of his wrote to me and sent me this url and message:

http://www.shaolin-do.com/

"the grandmaster Sin The' is probably the only master to know all the surviving forms from all shaolin temples"

I thought the claim was a little extreme, but I wanted to get some intelligent feedback from the forum.

chuck

[Water Dragon]

Sin The is probably the best MA to ever walk the earth. He knows over 700 forms has proven that only HE has the real Chen family Taichi. The Chen's form looks nothing like his. And it is unheard of for MA's to make up things like this.

You may take my life, but you will never take my Freedom

[Kung Lek]

He does possess the 1928 wu shu manuals. I think he sells them through his web site too.

These are the compilations of styles that were the result of the tournaments held there wherein the 13 champions were proclaimed.

These 13 champions included the great masters Kyu Yu Cheong and his contemporary Tam Sam amongst others. They were masters of a variety of styles including neija and weija systems of kung fu.

Intersting manuals to say the least. As for Sin The, from what I have heard and read about him, he is a dedicated martial artist with a background primarily in karate.

But he is continually studying. The marketing aspect of him is more reflective of the fact that martial arts is his bread and butter. This is how he makes his living. The "Kung fu" he propogates is not recognizable as "Shaolin" to many who know some of the more ancients styles. Although knowlegde of ancient styles and many varities of family systems is not common at all, anywhere. (not that there are many "ancient" styles. Many of the known and practiced systems being less than 300 years old and having been modified by the interpretations of the various lineage holders over the years. Not to say the systems are not effective, many are and apparently by many testimonials from a variety of sources, so to are the systems that are taught by the Shaolin Do folks.

There does seem to be a bit of a "cult of personality" surrounding him (Sin The) that is perpetuated moreso by his student body than directly by him (although he has been seen on talk shows and at other promotional events).

He does have a brother who sticks to the more "traditional" methods of teaching martial arts and does not surround himself with the trappings of fame and fortune that Sin The does.

Anyway...just an FYI from a guy who knows nothing when held up to the light of what there is :)

peace

Kung Lek

[sifuchuck]

Water Dragon: lol

Kung Lek: Thanks for the intelligent response. One of the most informative and inoffensive short messages I've read on this forum. Good for you!

From the web site I got the distinct impression that I was looking at some kind of karate-kungfu hybrid. Like a local kenpo school that uses a mixture of Japanese and Chinese and Korean terms.

I suppose the real disapointment for me is that my friend is so certain that he is studying the only real Shaolin styles.

regards,
chuck

[Fu-Pow]

It all depends on how you define Shaolin....(a common defense used by Shaolin-Do practitioners)

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[Kung Lek]

Fu Pow, in some ways, what you are saying is correct if it is viewed in terms of the old saying "All martial arts owe their origins to Shaolin"
After all where did Karate come from, or Kempo, or...well , pick a codified and systematic martial teaching and it probably derived or at least spent some time in the walls of the henan temple.

Shaolin is anything but shallow, it is very far reashing in all the martial arts it has touched. Some to a greater depth than others.

It is also an old saying "It would take three lifetimes to learn all of the Shaolin knowledge of martial arts"

What my sifu has given me will last me a lifetime!
What he has has served him well through his by all indications that I can percieve.

It's all good.

peace

Kung Lek

[qy]

Wow Kung Lek how the heck do you have time (maybe practice more post less) to read so much BS about another set of commercial kempo type schools? What is this tournament story??? Do you know Sin The? Of course not, then why do you repeat crap you find on the internet? Do you direct conversation away from your teacher's website by keeping shaolin-do threads going?

Let me tell ya I have listened to hours and hours and hours of Sin The's stories and this latest theory is a new one on me.

Man you keep talking.......... :rolleyes:

[Kung Lek]

qy, if you wanna talk smack about me or my sifu, keep it to yourself. I haven't got time to argue with those who are ignorant of the way things are.

peace

[This message was edited by Kung Lek on 09-22-01 at 06:02 AM.]

[billy_pilgrim]

He hasn't got time to argue or engage in a dialogue about his sifu, school, etc...he only has time to scribble 2400+ posts about everyone ELSE'S sifu, school, etc...

[Kung Lek]

yes, well, what would you like to know? Do you have a question? Maybe i can answer it for you.

sifuchuck asked a question. I replied. now you 2 go off? yeesh.

so, what do you wanna know?
p.s, i don't see any information about either of you or your styles in your profile. so where exactly are you guys coming from? hence, i don't have time to deal with those who refuse to be at least a little bit honest about themselves.
It's easy to cast dispersions and not have to answer for them.

Kung Lek

[qy]

and at times shared a house with Sin The.

That's where I am coming from. I currently practice a bit of Tai Chi. Have since '91. Began my studies in 1980 at a traditional Karate school. And some other stuff.

Did I pick on your teacher? Did not mean to do that.

[Kung Lek]

Did I pick on yours? What is incorrect about what I Have said? Besides, that he apparently doesn't sell the 1928 compilation manuals through his site. The manuals are available, I have a chinese language copy of one of them, lots of good pictures though although my putonghua is still a little weak. Care to enlighten us further? I don't think anything I have said is "straight off the internet" Thé has been around for a while, he puts his stuff out there and holds it up for all of us to see.
Why not just answer sc's original question instead of getting on my case?

Kung Lek

[This message was edited by Kung Lek on 09-22-01 at 12:25 PM.]

[qy]

I am thinking that you are thinking that Sin The is my Sifu. Nope. I do wonder why you try to come off as an authority about something you have had no first hand experience in. I guess thats what is annoying me. Yes, as you have already said you were incorrect in you original statements. That is why I addressed you.

Sin The has many,lets say excited students that like you, can set up web sites. Many of these folks "compile" info from other systems assimilate them and pass it on as though it was part of Sin The's info. But you are not even a SLD student doing the very same thing. THAT is why I addressed you.

We can all post hundreds of great reasons about why shaolin-do is not a great choice for a school. I do not need to do that, it has been done many many times here.

The term "sifu" is not even used by Sin The. He goes by "Master Sin". He is not my teacher I walked away from SLD 8 or 9 years ago. I think if you ask anyone who knows Sin The you will find he spends most of his time or did weight training, and attempting to get funding for his movie.

SO you said you were open for questions.....
Where does you teacher get info one the systems you say you are learning? I looked at the site and only see certification in Kempo up to 2nd black and something from the food and beverage association? No offense you said you were open to this. It's on the site right? :)

[South Paw]

Nice post sifuchuck.

I have this interesting book from Masters Sin and Hiang The called "The Big Guys Fall Hardest" from 1982. In an indirect sense this probably relates to Sin The and his art. LOL.

As a former Macan Kuntao specialist and member of the Flying Dragon Society I can only say that Indo's like Sin The and Richard Kudding, to name a few, are great story tellers. This does not say anything about their knowledge or fighting skills.
It's just a fact.

In my country live a lot of Indo's, and when it comes to martial arts, they can tell exagerated stories. They even believe in their own stories.

I can only explain this by pointig out that Indonesians in general are font of good stories, and secondly it has to do with a sense of inferiority by the Indo's. A feeling of being treated as second hand citizens, being the product of mixed cultures.

Klaas Padberg Evenboer

aka

South Paw

[Fish of Fury]

what the he11 is going on?

Kung Lek posts a polite reply without resorting to the usual name calling/my sifu's bigger than your sifu/you smell/takes one to know one type stuff, and he gets harrassed.
i cant see that he particularly supported or detracted from Sin The in his post.

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

[Kung Lek]

qy, you say you were brought to "black belt" and also were an instructor in the system propogated by sin the. therefore he is your sifu, sensei, guru, etc. deny it if you will, but as soon as you say it you acknowledge it, to retract is reflective of poor character, in my opinion. nothing personal, i don't even know you, but to say one thing and do another in regards to this is disrespectful. are you saying what you have is worthless? if so, that is unfortunate that you have wasted such a great period of your life pursuing something that you think is worthless.

indos tell stories? geez,everyone tells stories, the chinese have some great ones and so do my canadian countrymen.as so americans and every other nationality. nations themselves are built on legends, stories and of course deeds.

I never said I was an authority, I stated quite clearly "from what I have read and heard". that means read sites, books and heard from members of the sd organization who are themsleves at various levels of understanding. From this, I do believe I can make an objective and non-confrontational statement such as I have.

my sifu's kempo achievements are his, as are his achievements in Black Tiger and North Shaolin Kung Fu, Tai chi and Pa Kua.

Truth is, I have met people with more paper on their walls that don't have a quarter of the martial skill my sifu does. Also an observation from my perspective as well as many others who have met my sifu and even those who have not studied under him at all. He is highly regarded in the martial community and is a sought after Kung Fu master and Lion dance teacher who teaches from his heart with great care towards his students. He does not do it for money, if he did he would be in the poor house.My sifu teaches kung fu from his heart to everyone who is eager to learn and ready to do the work involved in achieving kung fu.

Besides, getting a 2nd black under sigung kudding is no small achievement from what i understand.
as a teacher, paatje Kudding's(as he is now called
) teaching methods have been described as "brutal", "hard", "unforgiving" and a few other words that put it into perspective what it must have been like to train undre his guidance.

my sifu clearly explains his black tiger sifus reasons. just cause you want to know means nothing. you wanna learn black tiger, then go learn it, instead of ****ing around because of what "you" think from reading a "website".

nuff said, you want to know anything else from where I stand?

One more thing, I think that Martial arts are one of the greatest things one can spend their time doing. Since boyhood I have been facscinated and enamored by them. I am passionately for the propogation and furthering of all martial arts, be they japanese, chinese, welsh, irish, whatever.
I do not regard them as sport, i regard them as arts. I do not sully my own practice with bad intent. Anyone who has spent their time in diligent training of martial arts is worthy of at leats a modicum of respect and will get it from me.

peace

Kung Lek

[South Paw]

You are right to say that Chinese tell stories too Kung Lek.

Peace

South Paw

[qy]

Today I have a lot to do, but I did not want you to feel sad that I did not respond. I got paid to do what I did. I was hired as a 19 year old to do MA full time. umm like I said if you knew more about Sin The you would know the Sifu thing does not apply, like I said I was a hired employee.

Did you respond to my question about your teachers lineage or simply rant as though you had to defend yourself?

For ya other guys, I have posted back and forth with Kung Lek before. If you want to think it helpful to have him post what he thinks he knows on everything then you are in the right place.

Ok thats enough of this.

[BukSing]

I visited one of "Sin The`" branch schools in Boise, Idaho. The instructor was a nice guy. Had a large group.The style is bull****. Why? Because they are taking the liberty of using the term "Shaolin" for marketing purposes to prey on the ignorant public at large. Their "system" is nothing more than any other person nowadays learning a bunch of stuff and then conglomerating it together to call it there own "Jeet Kune Do" or, otherwise in similar terms, "Shaolin-Do." I don't know everything and I don't think it is requisite that one needs to know everything in order to discern correct principles on basic rudimentary principles of martial arts. I believe having some proper education and some seasoned experience always prepares one for such things, and in this case, it was clearly the case that the "Sin The School of Shaolin Do" is a huge conglomeration mixing Karate and some Chinese Kung-Fu together and calling it "Shaolin" martial arts. As a matter of fact when I ran into the yellow-page ad in Boise, it used the terms
"Authentic" and "Traditional" "Shaolin" martial arts. But that image soon crumbled when I saw a school full of Karate gi's practicing typical Okiniwan internal katas. The instructor himself was attempting to prove that such uniforms and a belt system existed anciently, as he was pointing out the similarities from some old picture of monks wearing "similar" apparel. Well, needless to say, I know the difference between up and down and what black and white is. And all this is, is the product of some man who has spent quite a bit of time and effort learning 14,000 sets and made up his own conglomerate style.

Charp-Chui

[Fubokuen]

Most anyone can clearly see that SLD is NOT what it claims and that's the main irritation. All the info comes from people, like qy, who were drafted and paid to give over their past experiences. Anyone can join up and open a school under the banner and teach whatever they want as long as they pay dues. The scam goes all the way to Sin The, but he's not the one running the BS, it's the joiners who have something to protect. Just a very BS oriented commercial school- the keyword being "commercial"(or maybe "BS"). They'll give you what you want and if you already have something you can open a franchise school for them. Definately only for those who don't know/don't care.

[This message was edited by Fubokuen on 09-24-01 at 09:10 AM.]

[BukSing]

I completely agree with your remarks as well. It is as if in the past years Martial Arts has turned too much into "Martial Business" or "Martial Business Scams". It disgusts me.

Charp-Chui

[bean curd]

i read with interest your comment on a book on the kou shou in nanjing 1928.

i may have read your reply wrong, but i had the impression you have or had read them "interesting manuals to say the least" ???

if that is the case are you aware of where they can be purchased and are they written in chinese or english.

i am very interested in this, and have found it extremly difficult over many years to get these.

if you can help would be greatly appreciated.

thanks

[Kung Lek]

Bean curd.

I found the copy that I have in a little out of the way store htat dealt in ecclectic chinese goods. They also had several other Kung Fu manuals covering a range of styles.

All written in chinese, but illustrated. I would suggest that you look through:
1. A chinese library resource where you live
2.A chinese book store

or try to find a line of communication via the internet and chinese websites.
I am still looking for the other books from the compilation.

peace

Kung Lek

[bean curd]

thanks for the reply.

can you give me the name and title of the book you have.

i have tried as you have said, even contacting the shanghai museum to see if they had anything ont he subject.

those of ku yu cheung, tarm sarm, wong fei hung, du xin wu, wan lai shen, ken tak hoi etc, have tried and even students from these lineages don't have anything ont he subject.

so if you can assist a little further it would be great.

either way a name of auther, title, date of publication, would at least give me some direction. if written in chinese, is not an issue either old or modern though i prefer the old hahaha

thanks again

tofu

[Kung Lek]

bean Curd.

Check out cibtc.com.cn, you might want to look at the site through bable fish translation, they do have an english section though.

It's a chinese books dealer, they have a line on where to get the manuals, not sure if you can get the whole set, but there are other books there that have drawn directly from the manuals.

peace

Kung Lek

[bean curd]

gung lek

thanks for time and assistance, much appreciated

[Kung Lek]

Bean Curd-
Had any luck finding the manuals?
If not drop me an e-mail.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)