Horse stance width

[SevenStar]

WDs thread got me wondering about the horse stance. I know some people advocate a wide stance (wider than shoulder width) and some advocate shoulder width and no further. What do you in your style and why?

[TaoBoy]

I study a southern mantis style and we use shoulder-width horse stances. The basic theory is that is is more mobile than the wider stance and therefore more applicable to fighting. The wider stance is obviously more stable but at the cost of mobility.

[Water Dragon]

Since you're a Southern guy, do you use the staggered horse or the more common parallel?

[TaoBoy]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
Since you're a Southern guy, do you use the staggered horse or the more common parallel?

The horse stance is parallel. Our fighting stance is a staggered stance (ie one foot 1/2 a length in front of the other) and it's turned to about 45 degrees. We also sometimes fight square-on (seen in Chow Gar) sometimes - same staggered stance but not turned off centre.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by TaoBoy
I study a southern mantis style and we use shoulder-width horse stances. The basic theory is that is is more mobile than the wider stance and therefore more applicable to fighting. The wider stance is obviously more stable but at the cost of mobility.

That was another reason for starting the poll - I want views on the stance and combat. In WD's thread, fu pow commented that the shoulder width stance wasn't practical for fighting. I personally feel the opposite. It's interesting to hear everyone's views on it.

[dre]

Both , hand strikes can be more powerfull (more hip potential) froma wider horse , but the shoulder horse has mobility. THey have their good an bad points, each choice is a trade-off IMHO.

[TaoBoy]

Originally posted by SevenStar


That was another reason for starting the poll - I want views on the stance and combat. In WD's thread, fu pow commented that the shoulder width stance wasn't practical for fighting. I personally feel the opposite. It's interesting to hear everyone's views on it.

I'm with you on this one. I have previously studied a style that used longer stances - I always ended up looking like a kickboxer when sparring though.

Everyone's opinions are valid. For me, the narrow version works, but I have seen some martial artists kick butt is lower/wider stances. Each to their own.


And someone had to take the Royce option. Egad. :rolleyes:

[Serpent]

I'm with Guohen. Wide and low for training, higher and faster for combat.

However, there are combat applications for a low horse and if you work hard at having a very mobile low horse, your higher horse is super-mobile.

I honestly can't imagine a shoulder width horse with paralell thighs. I just tried it and it seems totally impractical for anything, my balance was way off and the mobility was terrible. Any comments on that?

(I'm not knocking anyone's training. I don't understand the shoulder width horse).

[omegapoint]

Very good question 7*. Being a martial artist who crosstrains in grappling (BJJ?) you are probably very familiar with the standing guard pass. In this instance a good "horse stance" where proper posture (a straight back, etc.), where one is sitting down in your stance as opposed to your back being bent, is a must. Your legs should be about shoulder width or slightly wider. Too wide is not good. The strength of your base will be compromised. Too narrow and you can be swept or reversed. Good stance position in this case allows one to stack your opponent with more concentrated weight on that one leg. The direction that your feet point also determines the stability of your base. If they point forward then balance is compromised towards the rear.


As a general rule pointing your feet at a 45 degree angle outwards increases balance of base. This angle is a common theme in real combat training and it usually crosses boundaries in regards to styles. Think of a triangle choke, various armbars and other submissions. The middle road is usually the best option.

The style that I primarily now focus on teaches almost all of the exact principles as GJJ as far as posture, stance and angle of execution are concerned. Styles that use deep stances do so out of a need for leg conditioning not proper fighting posture. As a general rule "horse stances" in Matsumura Seito Shorin are used for exerting pressure in a downward motion when grappling in-close against an obstacle like a wall, or times when a rear leg cannot be posted. It also teaches the practitioner how to maximize base/root/balance when force is exerted laterally.

As a rule it is a transition stance (like the cat stance) and is not a good "on guard" position. Doing a horse stance at 90 (facing your opponent) or 45 degrees (diagonally facing) makes a little difference. It's all relative to your opponents position and what you are using it for. There is combat use for this stance, but it should never be used in a med or long range striking situation. It can be used as a sprawl base, before one leg is posted to the rear. In that instance the distance of the confrontation rapidly changes from a med/long distance one to, after the opponent shoots, a short range attack defense to a counter such as a knee to the top of the head.

[omegapoint]

BTW, to sum it all up. Shoulder width-yes, Wide horse-no. Do squats (hack or otherwise) for real leg strengthening. If you want bad balance, knees, hips and ankles do wide horse stances, feet pointing forward, all slumped over and isht, hahaha.

[Former castleva]

It seems that both shoulder and double shoulder width are used as official´s,must be a style question?

[Choke]

say ping ma

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Serpent


I honestly can't imagine a shoulder width horse with paralell thighs. I just tried it and it seems totally impractical for anything, my balance was way off and the mobility was terrible. Any comments on that?


Yup, you just named the benefits yourself. Dealing with all that cr@p is the exact reason for doing a horse in such a manner.

When I do horse, I don't just plop down and hold it. I'm constantly fighting to keep my spine position, keep my head rasied, etc. Also, the feet tend to shift around in regards to where the weightr is distributed. I'm not sure, but I think that one has a lot to do with building root.

Also, I don't think you can just plop down into parallel. It took me a few months to get there. Now it's all I can do to maintain it. My legs collapsed at about 1 1/2 minutes yesterday, so I didn't even hit two. My legs usually start to tremble withiun 20 seconds. It's supposed to be a killer.

[neptunesfall]

"kung fu" horse stance - 1.5 shoulderwidth. trained at parallel to floor, practical usage at about 45 from parallel. (when actually using it, ie sparring, fighting) narrow enough that you can widen your stance if need be, wide enough that you can narrow your stance if need be.

"shuai chiao" horse stance - 1 shoulderwidth. used in transition during throws.

[fa_jing]

All horse stances with proper structure are useful. Some for training, others for fighting.

Mwahahahaha!

[SevenStar]

Omegapoint, your style sounds interesting. You know of any websites with good info about it?

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i do both, but personaly prefer shoulder width. it's common for sifu to encourage a lower and wider stance, but he's more adamant about discovering what works best for you.

i would list applications but water dragon pretty much covered everything i could think of on the other thread. the only other thing that i can come up with off the top of my head would be taking the opponents space. stepping through their legs into a low solid horse (in this instance i would go as low and wide as i could, though it's still effective at shoulder width). as you step in you can strike with the shoulder, shoulder and head, elbow, whatever.

[No_Know]

My first thought is that there is no shoulder's width Horse-riding stance. The standard is twice shoulder's width, but not shoulder's width and near parallel with ground thighs. T'ai Chi Ch'uan has like this but it is more at natural standing (feet shoulders width apart), not Horse-riding stance.

neptunesfall mentions that Shuai Ch'iao~ has a shoulder's width apart stance for throws. I would dout they would call this a Horse-riding stance. I would think it seems more like squatting.

The around shoulders width apart thighs near parallel Horse-riding stance flat footed seems impossible, given Human anatomy. The shin/foot relationship at the ankle required to achieve that, seems as though the top of the foot and the shin would get in the way well before near thighs parallel to the ground is acheived.

The other method for determining proper width is walking the feet out, four count, from feet together. Those of you who do should know. This is the beginner's method for measuring proper foot distance for your body to achieve a Horse-riding stance.

Perhaps some-such, some might say.

History of the following picture and some thoughts:

.....I was making a movie from still images. I had ten seconds to start the timer and get into place. I think a Horse-riding stance tells of the practitioner's skill. There are many skills. You all will have your opinions of this stance in the picture. I prefer low stance with feet parallel. My shamefully inconsistant practicing shows here, perhaps to some. But, it seemed an appropriate addition.

Good hope in almost whatever you believe to be for you.

[Royal Dragon]

When I do horse, I don't just plop down and hold it. I'm constantly fighting to keep my spine position, keep my head rasied, etc. Also, the feet tend to shift around in regards to where the weightr is distributed. I'm not sure, but I think that one has a lot to do with building root

Reply]
Yup, this is how I do it too. infact ALL stances should be done like this when you hold.

For me all horse stances have thier use. from the super narrow high internal ones that are literally with the ankles under the hip joints, to the really deep wide ones. I do them all, that way they work when I need them.

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Omegapoint, your style sounds interesting. You know of any websites with good info about it?

Each Matsumura Seito instructor teaches in a different way. Orthodox Shorin is tailor-made to fit the individual. Still, many of the principles are the same amongst different schools. There are very few good karate let alone Matsumura Orthodox sensei. I was lucky to find one near me. I only have to travel 2 hrs. to train with him. Some people might think this is excessive, but Sensei Lindsey is a treasure and I've learned more in 2 years with him than I have in BJJ, Shorinkan, Judo and Boxing combined. That is the truth, and my brother and I feel like the luckiest dudes in South Texas.

Here is a decent site detailing Matsumura's Suidi:

http://www.geocities.com/suiken000/

Check out the interview with Hohan Soken. It is very enlightening...

Here is some brief info on my sensei:

http://web-hou.iapc.net/~kmap/

Click on "Styles", then "White Crane Karate"... Peace!

Thanks for the interest.

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by No_Know
My first thought is that there is no shoulder's width Horse-riding stance. The standard is twice shoulder's width, but not shoulder's width and near parallel with ground thighs. T'ai Chi Ch'uan has like this but it is more at natural standing (feet shoulders width apart), not Horse-riding stance.

neptunesfall mentions that Shuai Ch'iao~ has a shoulder's width apart stance for throws. I would dout they would call this a Horse-riding stance. I would think it seems more like squatting.

The around shoulders width apart thighs near parallel Horse-riding stance flat footed seems impossible, given Human anatomy. The shin/foot relationship at the ankle required to achieve that, seems as though the top of the foot and the shin would get in the way well before near thighs parallel to the ground is acheived.
Good hope in almost whatever you believe to be for you.

Yeah, hope floats, but it can get your buttocks kicked too. No hope fighting here. I guess alot of folks got narrow shoulders. As a physics principle shoulder width horse stances (in my style it is called Pai Sai Dachi-with the feet 45 degrees out and Naihanchi Dachi, feet pointing 45 degrees in- for upward force) are the most structurally stable and do allow for quick stance changes. They are not real fighting kamae or positions though.

If you were to really ride a horse would your thighs be 2 shoulder width's apart? I guess if you say "yes" then you may be a dwarf or little kid. Even in judo shoulder width "straddle' stances are taught. In modern Chuan Fa, some styles teach wide and deep stances for supplementary training, but never for practical, self-defense use. Then again most instructors of traditional striking arts ain't got the faintest idea about real fighting or even free-sparring.

Your name is quite appropriate btw, hahaha! Sorry j/k.