tournament wins

[shaun]

hey guys, i'm a newbie here and i wanted to ask this question.

i'm not bashing wing chun or anything, in fact i'm kinda interested in learning it, but i was wondering why i dont see many wing chun guys win in no holds barred tournaments or UFC?

thanks...

[Martial Joe]

Probably because most those guys who know wing chun dont know how to fight on the ground.

The guys who do arent good enough. Like me.

Id like to see a good wing chun guy fight in Pride under K-1 Rules because he wouldnt have to worry about the ground.

[Merryprankster]

Id like to see a good wing chun guy fight in Pride under K-1 Rules because he wouldnt have to worry about the ground.

Yeah, cause, after all, if you can't win by the real rules, just keep changing the rules a bit until you can :D Kidding, martial joe, kidding...

Shaun--you're going to get some really stupid answers to this question, mark my words... but the conclusion I've come too is...

Most WC guys, and CMAists in general, just don't care.

[shaun]

isnt there like prize money involved?

since wing chun guys cant fight on the ground, does it mean that wing chun isnt a good martial art for street fighting?

[Grendel]

Originally posted by shaun
hey guys, i'm a newbie here and i wanted to ask this question.

i'm not bashing wing chun or anything, in fact i'm kinda interested in learning it, but i was wondering why i dont see many wing chun guys win in no holds barred tournaments or UFC?

thanks...
There is no such thing as a no holds barred tournament. Such a thing would be tantamount to an Old West shootout. Yet, a true unvarnished martial art, which Wing Chun is, cannot be made into a sport, which is what a tournament is.

Regards,

[shaun]

i dont under stand what you mean by "a true unvarnished martial art, which Wing Chun is, cannot be made into a sport, which is what a tournament is. "

can you or anyone else elaborate on this point? why can't wing chun practitioners join UFC or something and win?

[Grendel]

Originally posted by shaun
i dont under stand what you mean by "a true unvarnished martial art, which Wing Chun is, cannot be made into a sport, which is what a tournament is. "

can you or anyone else elaborate on this point? why can't wing chun practitioners join UFC or something and win?

Because tournaments have rules. The way of Wing Chun does not lend itself to fighting without doing serious damage to one's opponent. A no rules tournament wouldn't be sport; it would be carnage. Take boxing. It has evolved over the centuries into a sport. It's a rough sport at tiimes, but only a sport.

If you put gloves on a Wing Chun practitioner, require him to kick above the waist, confine the fight to a ring, have time periods, et cetera, then it is not Wing Chun.

One might ask, don't Wing Chun folk spar as in chi sao? Yes, but chi sao is really a cooperative effort which is meant to benefit both parties skill acquisiton. Chi sao, even in Wing Chun tournaments, cannot really be fairly judged, IMO. One cannot see some of the more sophisticated Wing Chun movements easily except by results. Every time I've seen tournaments, the best people seem to get eliminated by the rules, not by their opponents.

[OdderMensch]

as my sifu once said "there's training to fight, and there's training to hurt people. WC doesn't trin to fight. :D"

as for the ground, well while martal joe disagrees with me somewhat...yes WC can "fight on the ground" (we call it Di Tong, its always been a part of kung fu) no WC does not grapple, or wrestle for submission. Yes there is a difference, no it's not easy or a magic bullet that makes you unstopable. You have to train it, and you have to train carfully.

You brought up in another thread the idea of "not hitting each other = not training" and thats true, however the thing with kung fu is body control! it's not just seeing a technique, then trying it harder, or faster, or learning something new for every situation. You learn (in kung fu) to better control, and to be more aware of your body, with all its fragileties, in all its strength.

[tnwingtsun]

shaun-Welcome to class.


Grendel- A PLUS!


OdderMensch- A PLUS!


Merryprankster- A PLUS!


Martial Joe- Please move to the front,you can't hear from your desk in the back.



"Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has not heart; and any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains.
- Winston Churchill "

[shaun]

hey thanks for all the help so far guys..

i was wondering, in like UFC, i believe that there is only no eye gogging. doesnt that mean a wing chun guy could compete and seriously hurt another guy? but i dont really see many wing chun guys competing, even in UFC. most moves are permitted right?

oh one more thing, how come so many more guys train wing chun than jeet kune do even though jkd seems so much more well known? is it ineffective?

and do you guys spar during class? i mean not chi sau, but like slighty more contact sparring?

thanks in advance...

[Atleastimnotyou]

Jeet Kune do as a martial art isn't that great. It was designed by bruce lee to work for him. That EMIN guy said that jkd is a tailor made suit, it only fits bruce lee. That is about the only thing that he said that has any merit.

[Martial Joe]

Tn~Go fight a good grappler whos only objective is to get you on the ground.
See how well you do.

[Merryprankster]

Shaun,

The UFC has more rules than no eye-gouging. I don't know where to find those rules, specifically, but I know there are more than that. I believe kneeing to the head is restricted, but horizontal elbows are legal.

Pride has an EXCELLENT set of rules that allows you to do pretty much anything except eye attacks, headbutts, punch to the base of the skull, and groin shots and elbows. Pretty much everything else is legal, including the beloved joint strikes that every idiot who has their head in their ass seems to believe will fix every problem.

I have heard everything from the fighting surface to the rules of these two events used as "reasons" for the lack of obvious CMA success in MMA arenas (shooter's guys are a pleasant change), but these people are simply reiterating a tired excuse. The gloves are small and light, your limitations are rather few, and it's a one on one competition to see who is better that day, with a referee to preserve fighter safety. A simple, honest (for the most part) contest.

If people don't want to do it, that's fine, but to generate excuse after excuse is ****-poor. These ring fights are NOT the measure of an art, nor are they the street--but the training hall isn't the street either. Nothing is the street, but the street, and I DON'T want to fight out there, thanks. Aside from the legal ramifications, I don't want 5 on 1 or a shank in my kidney. So again, to answer your question, most of these guys don't care.

[tnwingtsun]

"Tn~Go fight a good grappler whos only objective is to get you on the ground.
See how well you do."

I did very well,he did not,looking back I know what saved me was my state of mind,to me it was life or death.

Funny that you said that "his only objective is to get you on the ground"

I think that might had played into it also,that was his single
objective,I'm sure he had other things in mind,I didn't have time to chit-chat with him,he went to the hospital,I went home,my training saved me(not just CMA) and the Officer that watched it from the start that pulled me off of him(saved me alot of time in jail).

Did I know that he was a good grappler?
Yes.
Did I go looking for him too fight?
NO!

Joe,that was a long time ago,it could have gone bad for me in a split second.

I have the upmost respect for grapplers and what they are capable of doing,if you have a fear of fighting grapplers using just what you know then I would suggest learning something that will proctect yourself.

Class dismissed.

[Martial Joe]

Good job.

Usually they get their takedown.

[anerlich]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
Jeet Kune do as a martial art isn't that great. It was designed by bruce lee to work for him. That EMIN guy said that jkd is a tailor made suit, it only fits bruce lee. That is about the only thing that he said that has any merit.

Your style brother and fellow Carl student red5angel has on several occasions insinuated that what Emin Boztepe does is JKD. I gather he's not entirely serious (and he probably knows as much about JKD as he does about Sambo - or Wing Chun, for that matter), but it's interesting that you seem to share r5a's penchant for Emin-bashing.

Is this something that Carl condones? Or perhaps even encourages?

[Atleastimnotyou]

Originally posted by anerlich


Is this something that Carl condones? Or perhaps even encourages? [/B]

Emin Bashing? No, i say what i say about Emin because i read his article.