Do you spar with your internal art?

[gazza99]

Schools who "spar" in the Niejia arts are in the great minority, I am in this minority, who else ?

1.If you "spar" with Niejia then how?

2.Do you freespar?,or do one or two step reaction drills? , or both progressively?

3.Do you put any real "jin" into the movements?

4.How often?

5.At what level do you spar

6.To what degree of force?

My answers later.....

Gary

[Crimson Phoenix]

I still have troubles merely moving internally...so I'd better forget about fighting with it yet...
I can still use my long fist/white crane though :-)
But one day, when I get that "haha!" experience in internal arts, I'll definitely try to rub it a little against a resisting opponent :-)

[wiz cool c]

I just started Chen Tai Chi and they spar it looks like an upper body wrestling match. They lock up and try to toss the guy push him or trip him. They do it at the end of every class or every other class. I am not sure how long it takes before one can do this type of sparring.

[taijiquan_student]

Yes.

1. See next answers

2.Both. After having done tui shou for a little while, we learn some basic san shou drills for striking, kicking, and stepping, and then some misc. stuff like one person stands still with their arms at their sides while the other person step all around them hitting various striking points (the striker hits "through" them, but with almost no power cause the points all really hurt [throat for example is done VERy carefully] amongst other drills too. This gets the person used to being hit, and gets the striking points ingrained into the other persons memory. Then after basic san shou training we move to one-step san shou. We start out slow and with not much power and then gradually get faster and with more intent. Then we work up to free san shou. (edit: the basic san shou drill we seem to do the most is half-stepping forward in a line while coordinating the steps with strikes against a phone book your partner holds.)

3. It depends on what we're doing--sometimes yes, sometimes no. It also depends on who you're going with. I have no problem with putting more jin into it if I'm with a senior student (they can destroy me no matter what I do anyway), but if someone is new I wouldn't (unless you feel like giving them a baptism of fire:D ).

4. San Shou class is once a week, though we often do it before and after form and tui shou classes as well (actually I haven't done that in a while, and I don't know why, but I digress).

5. I spar at whatever level I'm at, which isn't very advanced at all(I've been practicing for 2 1/2 yrs, now it's pretty close to three). My teacher spars at the level he's at (well actually he tone's it down even in full-contact for pretty much all of us), which can be scary as hell. Same thing with the more senior students.

6. It depends what we're doing. As I said earlier in the beginning stages it's gradual, and even when you've been doing it a while you still do it slower and with less power every once in a while. November is what we call "Hell Month" which is when we put on head-gear and open hand gloves (normally we don't use protective gear) and do free san shou, full-contact for an hour and a half, with 5 min. rounds with each partner evry sat. morning in November. Sometimes we take a five-minute break in the middle cause it's so **** tiring. During Hell Month my teacher always says use half-power, but everyone uses 3/4 to full it seems (or rather feels like:D ). We do full-contact san shou outside of Hell month too (I mean, that's just one month out of 12), but, and it's hard to explain in words, but there's a difference in intent when we really go at it full contact.

Well there it is in all its long-winded glory. Hope I've answered well enough. I'm really interested to hear how other taiji people (and other neijia people) train.

[HuangKaiVun]

I don't buy this "majority" stuff that most "Neijia" schools don't spar.

Maybe in Oklahoma that's the case, but not so in New York and DEFINITELY not in China.

Even my sifu Jiang Jianye, who's a known modern wushu exponent, had me sparring using internal methods.

[gazza99]

Thats good to hear Huang!, but id like to take official stats on how many Tai Chi classes do nothing martial, let alone spar!

Gary

[count]

I gotta go along Huang on this. How many internal martial arts schools have you looked at to call yourself in the minority? Even schools that don't care to spar probably consider martial arts, self defense and train it. At least the majority of the schools here in California. And you know were all granola here in California.;)

[gazza99]

Ive looked at everyone I could find in this state for starters! Im glad in granola/ CMC land this is not the case!! I just wonder what proportion of Tai chi people can fight with it in CA? Could you name some schools that do full up sparring?

"Even schools that don't care to spar probably consider martial arts, self defense and train it"

Ummm, I dont care what they consider it, the question posed in this thread is about sparring!!!

You cannot deny that Tai Chi is known as a health dance by the layman and even many people who practice it. (just had this conversation with my college class today telling them that tai chi was a MARTIAL art). (also had the same conversation with a 10 year Tai chi practitioner)

How about getting back to the main topic here besides our own perspective on the stats. If you do spar with your Neijia art then answer the questions!

For the record Ill be now writing down each Niejia place I go to and seeing if they spar and use it for combat, I travel often so hopefully Ill end up with a broad scope of the USA at least. That way ill at least have some hard numbers to back my current/recent perceptions!

Gary

[count]

You will be welcome at our school when you visit. True, we might not fit the description of an internal school, or a tai chi school, since some of the styles there are not what you would call internal martial arts in a traditional sense. We do have The main three there and some others you might be surprised about. But I'm sure you would have a good time. Gary, before I started with my teacher I went to as many places that said they taught Chinese martial arts as I could find. Some famous masters, some street thugs, some mackwoons, some parks and beach clubs. Names I'm sure you would recognize. Places I would be glad to show you. I would say over 100 to be exact. I have never seen any of these so called "hippie tai chi places". Truth is, I would love to have found some hippy women doing tai chi back than. I have seen schools where fighting is not always the focus. You might have to hang around a while before actually seeing any. Training could be dull. But eventually, martial arts is about fighting. The majority of schools know this. For some training methods and stuff maybe check out the other thread about BGZ fighting class (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=15712). As far as frequency in our school, Maybe every class, maybe not. Depends on what we got going. As far as degree of force, let's just say I've seen guys knocked out or hurt pretty bad. Part of training is learning to heal those things too. Yes, even bone setting or restarting a heart. If it is not a part of your training, I recommend finding another teacher. I don't see much point if you don't go all out. Maybe some controlled applications training, but even than, the hits are real jin, not fake jin. I don't totally disagree with you about the number of bad teachers, but it's my understanding that you can learn from any teacher. The important thing is to train yourself.

Now would you like to elaborate with your answers?

[gazza99]

I may be visiting CA shortly as I have a close relative very very sick in the Oakland hospital. Please email me with the address and name of the school, at least Ill know someone there!

My answers in short-

Sparring shouldnt be done until the very basics of structure and posture are learnt. This may take a year or more, if sparring is done to soon it just turns into sloppy kickboxing with no method behind the madness.

At first we do the normal choreographed san-sau two man forms. This teaches the students to get used to contact at full force while learning proper structure, movement, and not having to react yet so they can concentrate on the above.

Then simple movments are taken into sparring/reaction drills. It will build progresivley in both speed and know/unknown variables. For example in the beggining I may teach a student to do X technique against a punch. At first they will be thrown a right straight punch at almost full speed to practice X technique. Later in the session they will be thrown any punch at full speed/power and intent, and be expected to do the same technique on reaction with proper mechanics.

This will then move into range drills in which they will have an attacker or multiple attackers circling testing their ability to determine proper range of attack and the correct timing to correlate.

Eventually they will have a multitude of principles and techniques that can be used fairly well on a reactionary level with resisting opponent, and not compromise their structure, or movment in any way. This is the time when freesparring (pads of course) should be implimented, and at this point already has been to an extent.

I find it hard to put any "jin" into my sparring without completley overwhelming my students or training parteners (other non-neijia instructors). This is my trump card if I feel like ending things quickly, but that hardly helps the students.

I asked the question about jin becuase frankly Im afraid to put any jin into it after I hurt a black belt friend (make that two Friends) of mine using it. Fortunatly I was able to pull it in time, but I scratched his eye, hit his throat, and almost broke his nose in an instant. Perhaps when I have more skill I will be able to use the whole range of jins without such fear of injuring my partener, but for now im not their yet.

What degree of force depends on the equipment available, but generally its only moderate force, we slap each other around, but dont go full on.

I spar at the level of my students since I am currently teaching, if I am up against another teacher, or I am a student I simply do my best without the jin. If i am able to beat the person, or use little effort to keep them at bay, I step it down so they get good training.

regards,
Gary

[brassmonkey]

someone learn a new word today?

[Lincoln]

Come on guys! Everybody knows that the REAL Hippie Tai-Chi is all going on North of the Golden Gate Bridge. Anyone else not in the above mentioned area is just a tree huggin', granola eatin', hippie wanna' be. :D


Gary,

I live in the Bay Area if you are coming to Oakland you should contact me and I could possibly meet with you or give you advice as to what may be of interest to you while you are visiting.

Lincoln

[count]

Gary,

I hope your relative is not too seriously ill. If you make it down south to the LA area, just e-mail me first. I'll be glad to show you around some of the schools. I know several good ones. We don't have a formal school so we train in a park. I'll have to show you where we are.

I don't know much about Oakland, but when we go to San Francisco, (across the bay) we train with friends in "Panhandle park", I think it's called Golden Gate State park, and there is usually no fewer than 5 other schools practicing out there. I have met teachers like YC Wong, George Xu, Brenden Lai, Adam Hsu and others out there on any given weekend. I would suggest that none of these guys are anything but the real deal for martial arts training. Good luck and let me know if your in our area.

[Lincoln]

The Panhandle is the strip of park that leads into Golden Gate Park. I live two blocks from there. As for who practices there now. There is a small group that does Brendan Lai's Praying Mantis. There is a small group that practices Lao Bun's Choy Lay Fut. There is another small group that practices Xie Pei Qi's Bagua. The other people that you mentioned practiced their occasionally but I have not seen any of them for years. There are several areas in Golden Gate Park where there are many groups of people practicing various Kung Fu styles. For the most part they are elderly Chinese practicing Tai Chi for health.

Lincoln

[count]

That's the place. I think it has been a while since I have been up there. The last time I remember was in the late 1980's for me. What is the group from Xie Pei Qi's Yin style like? I might go up there just to meet up with them. And you, since you live so close to the park. Yes it's been quite a while, I might have to plan a road trip.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

1) At the more advanced levels we free-spar, focusing on technique and chin na applications.. Most of our good san shou fighters credit their prowess to their Tai Chi training.. Understanding technique is good, understanding the energy that makes it work is better..

2) Both, progressively.. according to ability..

3) We express "Jin" only enough to demonstrate its application..

4) Free-spar once a week.. tui shou each class.. chin na drills each class.

5) Students are introduced to sensitivity drills after they demonstrate a working knowledge of body mechanics.. controlled sparring after completing form..free-sparring when i decide they are ready and can control themselves..

6) Enough force to demonstrate that the technique works but not so much as to damage classmates..

Forms are a good foundation, application is what forms "point" to.. Dynamic interaction is what the Tai Chi symbol represents, should the Art be anything less?..

[Ray Pina]

Gazza I agree with you 100% that martial arts must be martial.

But there is one thing that has not been brought up. IF one reaches a good level in internal, let's look at Hsing-I's POW!-quan for an example.

How many of these can you or your class mates take? The goal is not to exchange back and forth, but to hit, control and then take their head off with a BIG powerful blow that has your entire weight behing it (I'm 210lbs). Pushing with the foot, turning the hip, using the upper back, shoulder and elbow for power and the upper arm for "bat speed."

If you can take two of these to the head, forget Taichi, go into pro boxing or just sign up for the UFC right now. Don't delay. Get yourself on the cover of every martial magazine.

My point?

I don't want this to sound like a "my art is too deadly to spar" with. More like, your art should be too deadly to spar with and don't even use it to fight, just to beat the $hit out of someone. It shouldn't be sparring. Are you telling me you are training to last a few rounds? To zig in and zag out and bob and weave and wait for the bell? Or are you coming out looking to snap someone's head off their shoulder?

So the question should be, Who is signing up to take this sort of beating on a weekly basis?

I view class as the opportunity to gain knowledge from the teacher, train the principles with your fellow training brothers and sisters and try to make the connections and learn and go deeper.

I used to think like you. But now I see that it is dangerous to engage in controlled combat, where you are programming your body to "take it easy" on the other schoolmate.

There are always outsiders who want to play. In my area their are tons of guys who swear by Wing Chun and Hung Gar and we have a good time.

If you really want to test it out, that's what the west side between 42nd and 56th street are for. Sat. night after hours, you are almost guaranteed a test.

But I do understand your point. I came from a heavy fighting focused S. Mantis envirnment. And when I first went internal all I wanted to do was fight. But I see what I was doing before was just joking around. I'd kick the $hit out of the fighter I was 2 years ago -- no doubt about it -- but I'm still not "internal".

Principles, power. A fighter is a fighter inside already. Train the weapons, the delievery of them.

[Chris McKinley]

Evolution Fist,

You make some good points about training so that you don't NEED a second strike, even if you deliver one (or twelve) anyway. And also about how unrealistic it is to train to "last a few rounds" rather than to simply take out the opponent.

Where I think you're having a misunderstanding here is in drawing the conclusion that this is how Gary trains his students and that this is what he means by sparring. Perhaps Gary would have been wiser to choose a different term in his original post, given that the term "sparring" CAN mean different things to different people but that it usually has a fairly standardized connotation to it.

From my experience with him, I can assure you that Gary definitely does NOT teach his students to "ring fight", nor that he is implying that such training ought to be included in neijia. He explained his own approach himself fairly clearly in a later post in this thread.

My own view on this matter, born of experience, is that working solely for the ability to deliver maximum power with optimal mechanics, sung, jing, etc. will NOT in any way provide sufficient training to survive a real life-or-death street encounter. Needless to say, such training IS essential....it is, however, not SUFFICIENT.

Since Gary is USAF, let me liken it to an Air Force analogy. The US spends billions each year to ensure that we have the latest high-tech fighter jets and the most highly-trained combat pilots in the world. We make sure that each fighter jet is capable of delivering huge amounts of damage to the enemy all by itself. However, for every pilot, there are around 20 other personnel providing support for his/her strike missions. Without absolute excellence in the support they provide, even the most state-of-the-art jet and most highly trained pilot are slightly more than useless in combat and might as well just sit there on the tarmac.

Being able to execute massive damage with each and every blow in a fight is essential. However, without the other skills that do not, I repeat, DO NOT come from mechanics development practice, you will very likely be unable to "acquire the target" in a real fight against a poorer trained but experienced opponent in the street. Think otherwise? Then try the following: 1) go find someone with good old-fashioned boxing and wrestling experience who's also had streetfighting experience. 2) **** him off. 3) Now try landing your most massive Beng Quan strike to 'snap his head off his shoulder' before he KTFO's you or takes you down for a good old-fashioned ground and pound.

Without MUCH more than just strike execution training, you won't be able to deliver jack sh*t. Those that have been there know there's a helluva lot more to fighting than just being able to hit powerfully.

Anyhow, I'm not assuming that this is some kind of newsflash to you, it's just a reminder to keep all priorities in view and not get tunnel vision on any single one. :)

[Ray Pina]

Chris, I couldn't agree more with you. Just that I think a lot of people, and I can honestly say I am the most guilty of this, put the cart before the horse when it comes to internal or MA in general.

I see tons of martial artist who claim to be of a high level, and I watch them fight and it looks like kick boxing. Of course one has to throw down, this is martial arts here, but where is the internal? Who has internal?

Fight? Yes. But not fight with slingshots for 5 years and think you are ready to do battle with someone who purchased an AK 47 a month ago.

I honestly thought that by the time some one started in internal, they had already completed at least one style. By this time, fighting is like going for a surf session. It's no fun unless the waves are big and challenging.

My aim is to be able to take on the biggest and the baddest of them. So my focus has changed recently to investing in wealth (chi) and technology (good technique).

It's a double edged sword thought, and you're right. I know tons of theorists who do know a lot, but hit them...

But, I also know guys who beat the hell out of themselves but never improve. They have plataued investing in pure ability which have ceilings (speed, power, size).

Balance.

[HuangKaiVun]

The original post said "Schools" that train "Nei Jia".

Because of that, I was talking about schools that specialized in teaching specific Nei Jia principles - not simply a modernized Tai Chi set devoid of application or lineage.

A TRUE Nei Jia lineage holder understands that there are specific training regimes and a style of moving that is characteristic of that method. I'm not saying that gazza99 ISN'T a legitimate lineage holder; what I'm saying is that a person can't just be lumped under "Nei Jia" simply because he practices Taijiquan for exercise show.

For example, the Nei Jia styles often feature that baguazhang-like circle walk. This is an integral part of their combat training. Ba Gua has it, my Seng Men style has it, Tzuranmen has it, and so do Hsing I and Tai Chi in the older lineages. A true "Nei Jia" guy can be detected via his combat stances and movement.

Two man training via push hands or rou shou is also another trait of the Nei Jia styles. Resistance training is a big deal to the Nei Jia styles, which is why they feature all sorts of two man drills and training sets and even equipment.

Of the true "Nei Jia" schools I've seen, all of them feature such training. To be a true "Nei Jia" practitioner is to do drills and sets that build toward freeflow combat proficiency. Thus far, I have yet to see a SCHOOL of Taijiquan or any other Nei Jia art that doesn't feature that type of training.

There's a huge difference between the guy who learned a Taijiquan set for demonstration purposes and the guy who uses his Taijiquan set in accordance with Nei Jia principles.

[Nick Lo]

huang

And you learned from the video professor, Jiang Jian Ye? The man who's produced videos on every modern compulsory form wushu-taiji you name it...

And then you comment on lineage, throwing in a less than subtle diss to modern taiji?

And you follow that with a comment on how you know what a taiji man's combat stances look like?


Good GAWD boy... PLEASE lay off the drugs!!! :eek:
This is like shooting fish in a barrel.... :(


wonder how soon before you try switch the topic to beating my ass... as if my ass was something you wanted desperately to touch.....

[HuangKaiVun]

I'll switch the topic to YOUR beating my ass.

Who here wants to see Nick Lo's Taijiquan against MINE?

[bob10]

Combat stances??? Oh dear....

[Brad]

Who here wants to see Nick Lo's Taijiquan against MINE?

Only if it doesn't cost me anything :D

[Nick Lo]

Brad

Nah, he'd probly charge 19.95 at the door...

Of course, it's justified because he isn't making much money at it... :rolleyes:

Not that I ever even studied taiji anyway...

Oh, I guess I could be like him: see a few videos, read a few forums, listen to a few taiji players talk, bank on my chinese heritage, and play like I know it... :rolleyes:

but then i'd probly have to kill myself...
especially if I started believing my own press...

[HuangKaiVun]

Yes, kill yourself.

It'll save you from having to face me

Better yet, let's videotape you and me fighting and air it on the Internet.