What are the similarities between Wing Chun and Ngo Cho Kun ? [Archive]

joedoe

07-06-2003, 03:40 PM

Both styles keep the elbows in? :)

I can tell you and Ngor Chor but very little about Wing Chun - my only experience with Wing Chun has been mucking around with Dezhen for about an hour. I will give you what I could pick up in that time though:

While the stances look similar, the Wing Chun stance is more upright than the Ngor Chor stance. The Ngor Chor stance was a little wider and deeper.

There are fundamental differences in the fighting philosophies. Wing Chun appears to focus on speed to generate the power, and mobility (I may be wrong here). Ngor Chor uses a concept of heavy hands and rooting.

Ngor Chor is a much better art than Wing Chun :D Just kidding :D

I'll see if I can get Dez here to discuss it further.

Serpent

07-06-2003, 11:29 PM

Originally posted by joedoe
Ngor Chor is a much better art than Wing Chun

Well, of course, that depends on the lineage.

joedoe

07-06-2003, 11:34 PM

The Wing Chun/Wing Tsun/Ving Chun/Ving Tsun lineage or the Ngor Chor lineage? :D

You watched both styles somewhat side-by-side Serp, what are your impressions?

Serpent

07-07-2003, 12:00 AM

Well, to be completely honest, they did look very similar to me. However, I was looking from the point of view of someone with very little experience of one (Wing Chun) and no experience at all of the other (Ngor Chor).

I noticed that Ngor Chor seemed to have more fluidity and circular motions, albeit small circles, over Wing Chun's predominantly straight lines and Ngor Chor seemed to favour more open hands and soft power generation (a la Sum Chien, etc.)

I think that if I could see more of them both (or at least, more Ngor Chor) then I'd be able to spot numerous other details and differences.

dezhen2001

07-07-2003, 01:58 AM

serp: i think considering joedoe has been training over 1/2 the time i have been ALIVE he did have certain advantages over my measly 3 years LOL :D

hmmm... my impressions of the Ngo chor i saw and felt:

From touching the hands they reminded me very much of my Sifu. Very soft. Very soft but also heavy hands when they wanted to be. Very good at controlling energy and redirecting.

Very good root (hard to move - but may be the size differential too :p), but wider stance than wing chun, more like "traditional" Mabu than the YGKYM. We are a bit higher.

Seems to face the centre a lot too which is somewhat familiar and like to use both hands.

Movements more rounded than ours, even though we are a little round too. Out tan, bong and fuk sau is very distinct i think...

We were just playing so no serious scrapping, but i remember joedoe using a lot of palms and things, whereas i tended to use the good ole neck chop as i moved offline :D

Apart from that i cant actually remember much about us touching hands :)

As for the forms i saw saam chien and another few - cant remember which. Seemed much more "shaolin" as they seemed to have gong bu, mabu and other stances. As well as a lot of up and down movements. I guess its because of the Lohan and Monkey etc? :)

From my Shotokan/Goju background it was good to see finally.

To be honest (and im not just saying it coz i know the guys :D) i was very impressed, and can see and feel some commonality. Also some differences of course.

Very interesting :)

JMHO,
dawood

dezhen2001

07-07-2003, 02:03 AM

or i could always tell my students and grand-students someday how i accepted a personal test of hands, flew 1/2 way round the world to do it, and touched hands with a guy whos been training 5 times longer than me - AND walked away :eek:

Also scared them (and made them laugh nervously) by fighting upside down while standing on my head! :eek:

:D

dawood

joedoe

07-07-2003, 03:32 PM

LOL @ both Dawood & Serpent.

I have often felt there was a lot of common ground between Wing Chun & Ngor Chor, particularly in the linear movement and the philosophy of attacking the centre.

I tend to use palms in gloveless sparring basically for safety. Ngor Chor uses a lot of punches, but I tend not to use them unless safety gear is being worn - otherwise the deadly nature of my art would have killed you :D.

All in all Dez, you did change my mind about Wing Chun to a certain extent. Up until when we met my impression of Wing Chun was based solely on some demos I had seen of a well known Sydney Master who shall remain nameless, but I am sure Dez & Serpent know who I am talking about :D. Let's just say he left me very underwhelmed. :) But touching hands with Dez showed me a lot more about Wing Chun.

And Dez - not only were you upside-down and standing on your head, but you walked away from it and was healthier than I was!!!! :D

dezhen2001

07-08-2003, 04:12 AM

LOL! it was a good time, enjoyed meeting everyone a lot. Gives me more reason to come back to sydney - especially as i missed prana this time...

they should make a warning announcement "all wing chun is NOT the same" :)

dawood

pitbull

07-08-2003, 05:30 AM

hello joedoe ;-)

red5angel

07-08-2003, 07:03 AM

There are fundamental differences in the fighting philosophies. Wing Chun appears to focus on speed to generate the power, and mobility (I may be wrong here). Ngor Chor uses a concept of heavy hands and rooting.

joedoe - I think you will find wingchun is much more similar to Ngor Chor then you realise. Wingchun does not rely on speed but sensitivity, not strength but structure, and not power but precision. I am not familiar with Ngor Chor but from your short description it sounds like it shares those traits?
Actually I am finding that a lot of the southern arts share alot of the same traits.

dezhen2001

07-08-2003, 11:53 AM

joedoe: yup red5 is right - i was basically cr@pping my pants at the thought of you mowing me down - hence the speed and running away part...

also the fact im not very good :)

dawood

joedoe

07-08-2003, 03:50 PM

Pitbull: Hey man, how are things going?

red5: Yup, as I said my experience with Wing Chun is basically limited to watching bad demos and touching hands with Dez for a short while. Hard to get a good idea of an art thru that ;) You are right though, I feel that most of the Southern arts share a lot in common.

Dez: Am I really that scary? I always see myself as a fairly average, non-threatening kinda dude. BTW your Wing Chun seemed fine to me :)

dezhen2001

07-08-2003, 04:05 PM

nah youre not that scary... but it may have had something to do with a) the way you kept laughing as you were trying to pound me and b) the size differential. So as long as i never have to fight you - youre a top bloke lol :)

To be honest ive never touched hands with someone who was that much more powerful than me before, so thats why i was nervous. But it was good :)

dawood

joedoe

07-08-2003, 04:50 PM

I can't help it - I always end up laughing when I practise. Dunno why.

I guess outweighing you by probably 30kgs would also be a bit intimidating :D

pitbull

07-08-2003, 06:34 PM

joe: sleepless...guarding my dog's litter of 9 pit pups....

is wing chun also made for short and syocky guys?

i chose ngo chor not only bec many in our family trained in it but it also fits my body class......short and stocky at 5'3 and 145lbs...

joedoe

07-08-2003, 06:50 PM

Originally posted by pitbull
joe: sleepless...guarding my dog's litter of 9 pit pups....

is wing chun also made for short and syocky guys?

i chose ngo chor not only bec many in our family trained in it but it also fits my body class......short and stocky at 5'3 and 145lbs...

Fair is fair I guess - as long as your dog guards your litter, you should help guard her litter :)

As for question about Wing Chun - I am not sure but Dez definitely is not short and stocky :) From the pictures I have seen of Yip Man and his students they weren't expecially stocky either.

pitbull

07-08-2003, 07:59 PM

my dog is doing a GREAT job minding the litter....im just over excited specially when i see puppies walking around :-)

they arent stocky? hmmm....im starting to think that im not 100% chinese...

joe: how would u guard against WC? those fast medium hard blows are wuite annoying arent they ;)

joedoe

07-08-2003, 08:10 PM

Your build may also depend on the region that your ancestors came from. I am also stocky, and that is a trait of the Hokkien people. Maybe Yip Man and his students are of a different region? (I don't know much about Yip Man so I can't say :)). Also, diet can make a big difference.

Hard to say how to counter Wing Chun as my experience was limited to 30-60 minutes watching Dez and mucking around with him. I would say there are two tactics I would consider 1) long, heavy punches to blast through or 2) stick to their arms as much as you can and use your sensitivity to counter their movement.

I would advocate sticking mainly because it is the best way to slow down a faster opponent, and most people are faster than me :( :D

Remember to keep your elbows tucked in though :)

pitbull

07-09-2003, 01:00 AM

joe: my ancestors came from fujien as well :-)...my fater side relatives are quite tall...i think i inherited my mother side's physical build :-) well,at least i can take more punishment than they do ;-)

aaaah..thanks for the tips ;-)

red5angel

07-09-2003, 06:51 AM

size isn't an issue. Some WC peeps claim that it was made for girls but I don't buy it, especialy not in china. It works well for smaller people because it doesn't rely on strength or size, it uses your structure, sensitivity and root to overcome power, speed, strength. In theory anyway. I'm 210lbs, and stocky and I have found that all of the people I have touched hands with who I outweighed by about 20 lbs or so couldn't stop me. Could be a level of skill thing but size does matter.

As for stopping WC people, get em talking about wing chun, or other lineages, or just claim your art is better then theirs. ;) In reality there are no quick and easy methods for stopping any art. In theory the long form arts have a problem dealing with the infighting styles but a good long form guy knows how to keep the range where he wants it.
So the best way to beat a wing chun guy is to practice and be better then him.

dezhen2001

07-09-2003, 09:50 AM

As for stopping WC people, get em talking about wing chun, or other lineages, or just claim your art is better then theirs. They already tried that and it didnt work on me :cool:

dawood

red5angel

07-09-2003, 09:54 AM

yes but that is because you practice an inferior lineage of wingchun. Your lineage has been altered/modified so that it isn't as effective as my wing chun. We all know also that Yip Man did not teach your master wingchun, he bought it on the internet. ;)

dezhen2001

07-09-2003, 01:48 PM

its not working man sorry :cool:

dawood

red5angel

07-09-2003, 02:47 PM

call yourself a wingchun man....

joedoe

07-09-2003, 04:42 PM

Yeah, I don't know how Dez can publicly call himself a Wing Chun man. We sat there and for about an hour over dinner we tried to get him into a lineage debate but he just sat there and smiled! Wing Chun indeed! :D

dezhen2001

07-10-2003, 07:36 AM

actually i AM a wing chun man - i didnt sit and smile i sat and ATE :cool:

dawood

ps: u cant touch this ;)

joedoe

07-10-2003, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by dezhen2001
actually i AM a wing chun man - i didnt sit and smile i sat and ATE :cool:

dawood

[Size=1]ps: u cant touch this[SIZE] ;)

Ahhhh, then your kung fu needs work because even though I talked I still ate more than you! :D

dezhen2001

07-10-2003, 04:42 PM

thats debateable mate - i was eating for 2 as *she* was not wanting to eat too much :)

dawood

joedoe

07-10-2003, 06:28 PM

Originally posted by dezhen2001
thats debateable mate - i was eating for 2 as *she* was not wanting to eat too much :)

dawood

C'mon, you saw the pile of chicken bones on my plate by the end of the meal. Easily the biggest pile :D

dezhen2001

07-11-2003, 09:30 AM

i ate most of the smaller bones :p

dawood

pitbull

08-12-2003, 07:05 AM

JOEDOE: help me activate my account over at vital points! thanks!

joedoe

08-14-2003, 10:28 PM

Originally posted by pitbull
JOEDOE: help me activate my account over at vital points! thanks!

From what I can see your account is OK. There isn't anything else I can do - you might need to contact one of the others as I can only administer the Ngor Chor forum. Try contacting tatsujin.

pitbull

08-15-2003, 03:53 PM

thnks joedoe! u da man!

about wingchun....a delegation from china visited us this week...i thought they are fellow wu zu quzn practitioners or people from south shaolin...i was puzzled when i was told that they are wing chun people...i dont know about what hey talked about w my teacher and club officers...maybe hey came to talk about the november soouth shaolin expo(i hope i will be sponsored to go)

dezhen2001

08-16-2003, 07:10 AM

pitbull: i think there are some types of wing chun (different to yip man lineage) that do forms differently etc. Ask on the wing chun forum and i am sure you will get an answer :)

dawood

joedoe

08-17-2003, 06:40 PM

Did you see them practice at all? What made you think they were Ngor Chor practitioners?

pitbull

08-18-2003, 08:37 PM

i havent seen them practice...almost every foreign visitor to our club are usually nck pratitioners...

pitbull

08-18-2003, 08:39 PM

dezhen: can u please briefly explain to me the diff in each wc lineage?

joedoe

08-18-2003, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by pitbull
i havent seen them practice...almost every foreign visitor to our club are usually nck pratitioners...

OK. Fair enough :)

Universal Stance

08-20-2003, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by pitbull
dezhen: can u please briefly explain to me the diff in each wc lineage?

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/what/systems/index.html explains the differences.

guanyu

05-25-2004, 10:45 PM

Originally posted by FIRE HAWK
What are the similarities between Wing Chun and Ngo Cho Kun ?

Some because both believe the use of arms is better than the use of legs. Both give more training punches than kicks and give importance in blocking.

But different in approaching the enemy. Wingchun (leung ting lineage) likely to punch faster and the more punch the better and traping the opponent but don't use blocks to harm opponents but only trapping them.

Ngo Cho Kun (CGB lineage) is more likely to only use few punches to drop the enemy(you will know why when you fight against one). Ngo Cho Kun has more a stable punch and always find its opponent trap or give pain and weaken the enemy punches by hitting certain part of the arm through blocking. A NCK fighter adept with the strength of his Ngo Ki can endure strong kicks and punches. This is due to the influence of Tat Chun that helps strengthen the practitioners body (the tension concept). Tat Chun is one of the 5 ancestor or source styles that compose Ngo Cho Kun. The other 4 ancestor styles is Kao Kun(monkey kung fu), Pe Ho(fukienese white crane), Lo han, and Tai Cho.

Suhana LIM

05-26-2004, 03:19 AM

Hi, I would like to contact to all NCK practitoner. Cheers.

joedoe

05-26-2004, 05:19 PM

PM me if you want. Do you practice NCK as well?

Suhana LIM

05-27-2004, 02:26 AM

Yes, but unfortunately it seems there is no other NCK practitioner here in melb. Maybe you know someone that you can recomend? Cheers.

joedoe

05-27-2004, 05:56 PM

I think I know of one NCK practitioner in Melbourne, but I don't know if he still trains and I don't know him personally. However, if you are ever is Sydney, or if I am ever in Melbourne I am more than happy to try and hook up. Can I ask where you originally trained NCK?

Suhana LIM

05-28-2004, 06:07 PM

I've been involved in NCK art since early 70's. The more I know and practice the more I love it. My sifu is one of the most senior disciples of the Lo family in Jakarta. I do not know if you have heard about them? Cheers.

joedoe

05-30-2004, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by Suhana LIM
I've been involved in NCK art since early 70's. The more I know and practice the more I love it. My sifu is one of the most senior disciples of the Lo family in Jakarta. I do not know if you have heard about them? Cheers.

Cool. Unfortunately I have not had any contact with practitioners from other lineages yet so I can't say that I know of the Lo family. Hopefully we can get together soon and exchange notes. :)