In Park's defense

[LapisCircle]

I was just talking about Park Bok Nam with a guy here where I go to school. He had been going to see him and I asked him what he was like. He said he was little and fast, focused primarily on striking methods and joint destruction and was a staunch promoter of basics. I got to thinking about that and veiwed some of his tapes. In all fairness to Park, what he is doing is actualy I feel benefical, he is steeping his people and people interested in bagua, in the basics, hard, what you will fall back on basics. It was said he didn't do anything special, well, manybe he feels nobody but his top of the top guys are ready for anything but the basics. Anybody agree?

[count]

I'll bet the recent attacks on Park here have sold hundreds of videos for him. I borrowed one to look at and I would say that appears true about the emphasis on basics, (a good thing) and maybe you are correct about only his "top of the top" getting much more. He must have hundreds of students either directly or indirectly so the need for such a systemized approach is probably necessary. And probably difficult for more than the top few to advance very quickly. Leave it to a Korean to come up with such a systemized approach to martial training, even with a system like bagua. I just hope the next level isn't "sport bagua". :D

[Ford Prefect]

There is a reason why his 2 books are called "The Fundementals of Pa Kua Chang" I understand that because of the name, it can be quite confusing that he only show fundementals in his book and video... :p

[Ky-Fi]

I don't know anything about Park or Bagua in general, for that matter. But, as the student of a teacher who has written CMA books, I've come to some conclusions.

If you write a book about CMA, you'd better be prepared for people to stand in line for the chance to sh*t on you.

If you write about the aspects and traditions of the art that everyone agrees with, then you're accused of "just being a translator of other people's work"

If you bring a different, individual understanding to some of the well-known aspects that's different from the mainstream, then you're accused of "a poor understanding", or just being "wrong".

If you try to expand the art and bring in aspects to it that nobody else is doing, then you're not teaching "the true art".

If you just show the basics, you're accused of not knowing the advanced stuff, and if you show the advanced stuff then critics doubt that you really understand it or can actually do it.

And of course, everyone who attacks a published master claims that their attack has nothing to do with any personal resentment or animosity, but only stems from a pure desire to promote the "true" art.

Maybe that's true, maybe it ain't.

Of course, no one is right about everything, nobody knows it all, and no one is above criticism. If writers are falsifying things like their lineage, training time, awards or personal abilities, then they should be called on that. But really, nobody who writes an in-depth book about CMA is going to be the world's greatest master on every single aspect they're writing about.

But IMO, if you REALLY want to know the truth about a writer of a serious CMA book, then you should personally meet with the writer, open up a page of his book and ask him to demonstrate--then you can get an accurate assessment of whether his writing stems from solely from theory, or from practice and ability as well.

[Ray Pina]

Well said.:)

You are making too much sense to be posting here. Not only are your comments hard to refute, but you take no offensive position opening room for pages of back and forth nonsense.:confused:

[Walter Joyce]

For a different perspective....

When you write any book that purports to disseminate knowledge, you open yourself to criticism and examination. That is how scientific knowledge is established, medical knowledge, legal knowledge, etc. Its known in its formal shape as "peer review" and in its general shape as criticism. Hell, even movies and restaurants are subject to it.

Some of the criticism is legitimate, some of it is not. It goes with the territory, regardless of the discipline you are writing about or performing in. If someone doesn't want to be subjected to it, they shouldn't publish, or put themselves out as an expert.

There is nothing wrong with challenging anyone or anything that claims to be an authority on any topic. If their knowledge is genuine, it will stand up to the process.

The method you recommend for challenging a martial artists written work sounds good on paper, but is not always practical, for several reasons. Their availability, their proximity, whether or not they would allow such a discussion, and other reasons that don't appear at a quick glance. Also, in advanced qigong or neigong, how is the novice seeking to determine credibility able to judge whether the practice is being done properly, or will have the intended effects?

Your loyalty to your instructor is admirable, but I believe it may coloring your judgment on this issue.

[Ky-Fi]

Some of the criticism is legitimate, some of it is not. It goes with the territory, regardless of the discipline you are writing about or performing in. If someone doesn't want to be subjected to it, they shouldn't publish, or put themselves out as an expert.

I agree completely---indeed the point of my post was to clarify this reality.


There is nothing wrong with challenging anyone or anything that claims to be an authority on any topic. If their knowledge is genuine, it will stand up to the process.

Again, no argument whatsoever.

The method you recommend for challenging a martial artists written work sounds good on paper, but is not always practical, for several reasons. Their availability, their proximity, whether or not they would allow such a discussion, and other reasons that don't appear at a quick glance.

Again, I certainly agree that that is an aspect of the state of CMA today. Because actually making the effort to cross hands with someone can be "impractical" and require some effort and risk, many people find it preferable to eliminate the element of physical testing from the list of criteria necessary to form their conclusions.

[Walter Joyce]

To clarify, you did make some good points. Just offering the other side of the argument.

[HuangKaiVun]

Park "does the basics" and yet people feel he "doesn't do anything special"?

Heck, baguazhang IS about the basics.

Sounds VERY special to me, especially since I've seen Park in pictures and he is truly a great master of Baguazhang.

[jafc]

The difference between "peer review" and many of the criticisms leveled against Park Bok Nam revolve around what is criticized.

Peer review is professional not personal. It is unacceptable to say "Dr. so-and-so is a complete idiot with questionable teachers, incompetent students and a poor grasp of science." It is acceptable to say "We have been unable to duplicate Dr. so-and-so's findings and our experience gives contrary results" The critique is centered on the methods and work not the author, his ability or the students.

What are the problems with Park's methods, what are the benefits. Do the exercises in the book add anything to the experienced ba gua practitioner's training. Do they take anything away? Do the methods train basics and fundamentals? Do they help put the inexperienced person in a position to better understand the art? Have you met Mr. Park, worked out with him? How did that experience compare with your previous ones?

This would be a good peer review.

[HuangKaiVun]

Yes, it would be a great peer review.

On the other hand, I as a martial artist can SEE how skilled Park Bok Nam is even in a static photo.

No review, positive or negative, will convince me that Park or his teacher Lu Shiu Tien don't know what they're doing.

[Ky-Fi]

Originally posted by jafc

It is unacceptable to say "Dr. so-and-so is a complete idiot with questionable teachers, incompetent students and a poor grasp of science." It is acceptable to say "We have been unable to duplicate Dr. so-and-so's findings and our experience gives contrary results" The critique is centered on the methods and work not the author, his ability or the students.



I can't say it better than that----that's exactly the point I was trying to make.

I can give a concrete example of that, too. A couple years ago on this forum, I had a debate with the daughter of a well-known Taiji teacher. I didn't agree with the pattern of breathing that this teacher taught in regards to the Taiji form. In a respectful and friendly manner, I described my understanding of the theory, what I had been taught, and my own personal physical experience and examples. She responded with her solid argument in favor of her father's method. I didn't change her opinion, and she didn't change mine, but it was a completely friendly discussion. Just because I didn't agree with her father's take on one aspect of the art didn't mean that I dismissed and denigrated his lifetime's effort of postively promoting CMA---particularly since I had very little first hand experience with the whole scope of his teaching.

[Walter Joyce]

"On the other hand, I as a martial artist can SEE how skilled Park Bok Nam is even in a static photo"

Interesting, your skill level must be very high. How do you square this ability with the following thought:

Posture creates the structure for martial arts, but movement is the heart of it.

Or the idea that there are martial artists appearance offers no clue to their skill?

Or martial artists who can execute form beautifully, but can't fight?

Yes, your powers of perception must be awesome if you can SEE that much from a photo.

I used to gaze at photos of Wong Shu Jin the famous hsig I and ba gua master for clues as to how to practice wuji, then I found out he intentionally refused to have his picture taken while actually training.

On another point, my comments as to peer reveiw had less to do with Park than they did with the risks inherent with publishing or establishing yourself as an authority.

I'm not sure if I need to improve my writing, making my points clearer, or if there is some way I can prevent what I write from being taken out of context.

[HuangKaiVun]

Wang Shu Jin and Park Bok Nam both have all the right muscles in the right places.

They also have excellent concentration and breath control. Plus, they cannot hide their focus on detail.

Notice how they always keep themselves covered in a way that they can move in and out of their postures - even in a standing meditative position? That's the sign of a fighter who successfully uses his martial art in freeflow combat.

There are Baguazhang guys that do their static postures more flowery than either of these guys do. But remember -

"it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that jing" (HKV 2002)

[jafc]

Mr. Joyce,

Your sarcasm is addressing HuangKaiVun is as obvious as it is inappropriate. HuangKaiVun's ability to analyze still photographs of masters is not the subject of this debate.

My last post raised some questions regarding a way to begin intelligently discussing Mr. Park's Bagua. Clearly, you have some thoughts and opinions on this topic. Perhaps you would like to begin the discussion by answering those questions and we can take it from there :D

[Ray Pina]

Actually, a picture can tell a lot soemtimes. In this magazine alone, sometime son the Burt's offerings or soemthing, many times the photo is displaying a technique where Burt is hitting someone witha stick, but the trained eye can see that his attacker, if really attacking, could just as well reach him. Also, a sharper eye will note he's holding the stick a good three inches up from the but. An inch is a mile with a weapon.

Other examples, why do some many Ba Gua articles have pictures where the guy has his palms all wrong? Wouldn't he use the best picture for a published article? Why is the back palm on the first palm change held so low? It doesn't collapse the lung for the health benefit, and its certainly doing $hit for fighting down there? So why?

With Taiji, why is the man's knee always out past the heel? There's no pulling angle from there.

So, sometimes a pictures says a lot. I usually use them to judge their understanding of the principles because that's the point of the article. I'm hoping they would take care to put forth what they consider to be right.

As for this web site or that school or this guy or that guy, WHO CARES? I don't. The more fakes the better.

[HuangKaiVun]

Walter Joyce, go touch hands with Park.

You'll see if I'm right or wrong.

[blacktaoist]

I don't mind intelligently discussing Park's Bagua.

For one I myself would love to touch hands (freefight) with Park. I love to see if he is good as many of you claim. I see nothing wrong in getting my ass kick by a true Ba Gua master, if he is truly that.

I have a question? If Park system is so good, then why dones he not have any fighters that can utilize his method. After all you guys claim Park has students all over the world. Are you guys going to tell me not one of Park top students can come to the all Ba Gua Zhang tournament and dispaly their fighting skills from Park system.

Other point I like to make, anyone can look good in photos, or do Fa jing drills and look like that have some real skill. But the bottom line is can that person apply what they learned in a real fight or sparring situation. And I'm sorry to say many people that practice Ba Gua Zhang can't.

Now lets talk about Parks fundementals in his book and video. So you guys think thats good Ba Gua Zhang fundementals. Ok fine. But I have another question?

when is the cultivating of the centerpoint practice in Park method. I have seen both of Parks videos, and he gives no references to this kind of training. (I-Chuan static Postures) And static posture training is in all three of the internal. BASIC."

2. Where is the Ba Gua Zhang Kun Shou (tui Shou push hands and push legs) training in Park method? BASIC."

3. Ba Gua Zhang Wai Dan method, level one. Most all Ba Gua Zhang styles have a fundemental Wai Dan open palm set to develop a student power for the first year of training. BASIC."

These are just a few things I don't see in Park system. And the above are basic methods in most traditional styles of Ba Gua Zhang.

[count]

I for one, wasn't really commenting on Park in more than in a broad and general way. I can't tell enough by looking at pictures and I have not met him or anyone who has spent time with him. So I have no opinion of his system. I only said he had a "systemized approach".

As far as the tapes, in my opinion, if anyone here thought you could learn from them, I doubt you could learn from any tapes without the benefit of the teacher, and to only have access to the teacher once or twice a year would make progressing quite slow. But if you had to learn this way, it would be good to keep it simple and focus on basics. Personally Ford and others, I make a distinction between what are basics and what are fundamentals and they are not always the same and sometimes need to be presented at different levels.

If you did study with Park and had to leave, it would be great to have a video record like these to fall back on and I'm sure you would have other methods of cataloging your system that might not fit on a couple of vhs's. If you study from someone else or don't study at all, I doubt the tape would be of much benefit to you at all.

jafc,
Welcome to the discussion's. Even though you are just a rookie, you are doing a fine job as forum police. Keep up the good work.;)

[blacktaoist]

Count

I didn't ask you your opinion or can careless on what you was commenting on Park in more than in a broad and general way.

First of all, my question is not for you. My question is for Park students or people that have train with Park. Anyone reading my post can see that, So whats the point of your post to me.

Yo I'm not in the move for your games. If I'm not talking to you, you need to mind yours.

[Ky-Fi]

Yeah, Count---you think just because you're a member on this forum that that gives you the right to make comments and take part in the discussions here?

[count]

LOL! :D That's true Ky-Fi, what was I thinking, and Taoist, my post wasn't specifically for you either. But if my opinions bother you so much, you might try the ignore feature.

[jafc]

BT,
I take it from your response to count that you are talking to me.

I have only begun to research bagua and I am coming at this from an external style perspective (Wado-ryu & Shaolin). Over the last five years, I have studied Yang Tai Chi. I do not claim expertise.

1. I have looked at the rich history between BT's group and Park's group on this and other posts. With all the bad blood between the two groups, I am not surprised by the lack of representation of Park's system at the Bagua tourney.

2. Photos - bad photos say something, good photos say little. Still, I trust neither and would go see for myself.

3. I have read the first book by Park & Miller. There seems to reference to static posture training toward the end. There are not many pictures but it leads me to believe that it is covered in the method. (I have not seen the video).

4.Push hands is absent in this first volume. I am halfway through the second and there is still no mention of it. Absense of push hands would be a bad thing. Trying to give the authors the benefit of the doubt, the book does not claim to cover every aspect of training. In fact, it seems focused on training that can be done without a partner (with a few two person applications sprinkled in.) I do not know whether this means the method does not do push hands or simply did not include it in the book. (BT, I realize you had experience with students who said they did not do push hands - not a good thing.) Does anyone else outside of BT's circle know if the system includes push hands?

5. Both books include a number of palm training sets. They look like power is taught after the student has started to develop proper alignment. Would these not fit the bill for introductory palm training?

I agree with Count, the approach taken in the book is VERY systematic and it seems to be written from a "if you are looking to get started" perspective. I would not want to try to learn from a book or video without frequent contact with a person. Otherwise, you could learn brain surgery by correspondence.

Bottom line is I don't think I can dismiss this method without more investigation and personal experience. Count has weighed in - he has not tried the methods out or met anyone who has.
BT - let me know what you think about points #3 & #5. I know where you stand with regard to the tourney, push hands and the method in general. No need to repeat yourself
Anyone else?

[HuangKaiVun]

I don't need to know anything about Park's training techniques to SEE that Park knows his bagua and can apply it.

The details of what one does in his training really don't matter to me.

All I care about is whether a guy can use his bagua or not - and Park CAN.

[blacktaoist]

Count:But if my opinions bother you so much, you might try the ignore feature.

Count nothing you say or do , can bother me in anyway. Like I told you before, I know what tme it is with you. And I still stand by my veiwpoints about you. If you was not talking to me, then fine. Move on.


. I have looked at the rich history between BT's group and Park's group on this and other posts. With all the bad blood between the two groups, I am not surprised by the lack of representation of Park's system at the Bagua tourney.

First of all, there is no history between me ar Park Group. For one I only post statements conforming to fact and truth of the few encountering experience I had with his people. So I know first hand what Park Ba Gua Zhang system is like.


5. Both books include a number of palm training sets. They look like power is taught after the student has started to develop proper alignment. Would these not fit the bill for introductory palm training?

In traditional Ba Gua Zhang you must first learn how to develop your centerpoint by first practicing standing meditation. Real Ba Gua Zhang basic palm training, consisted of holding eight postures for a minimum of five minutes -a total of 40 minutes standing meditation. This is the true way of developing Ba Gua Zhang power. You must first have correct alignment and posture before you do them kind of external palm drills. And yes they are EXTERNAL palm drills on Park tape.

But to tell you the truth the kind palm drills park have in his method are irrelevant, if you are practicing real Ba Gua Zhang neijiaquan power methods.

just my veiwpoint from my own experience in training in Ba Gua Zhang. My opinion have nothing to do with bad blood with Park. My statement is dealing with the truth about Ba Gua Zhang training.

[count]

Originally posted by jafc
I agree with Count, the approach taken in the book is VERY systematic and it seems to be written from a "if you are looking to get started" perspective. I would not want to try to learn from a book or video without frequent contact with a person. Otherwise, you could learn brain surgery by correspondence.

You aren't by any chance, offering such correspondence courses, are you? I hope that's not the way you learned it. :eek:

I take it you are attempting to learn bagua from this system? May I ask, how often do you get hands on with Park or one of his certified instructors? OR have you had the opportunity yet? If not, is that your intention and did you get interested through the books and tapes?

[jafc]

Count -
4 years medical school.
7 years residency working about 110 hours per week
one 8 hour written test
one 2 day oral exam.
about 3 thousand operations

AND you too can become a neurosurgeon:D
The money is good but the hours still s%^&:(

BT
thank you for your response to #5. Premature focus on external technique would be a huge drawback. I guess I'm going to have to check it out for myself. Good luck with the upcoming tourney.

[Dwhomp]

Why does everyone care so much about Park's Bagua?

If you like it, go with it.

If you dont, then dont.

Seems a bit open and shut to me...

[Waidan]

We'll have none of that level-headed thinking, mistar. Is Park Fraud or God? Weigh in immediately, or face the full fury of the casual weekend posters.

[kyle]

jafc

"I guess i'm going to have to check it out by myself"


Wise words,grasshoper,wise words indeed.

From my experience,Master Park teaches a complete Pa Kua system,very sistematic ,lots of detail,very deep,however is not for everybody or the only method available,just a different road to help you gain skill,if it fits your body,character and expectations,take it,otherwise try another road.

enjoy your journey.

[paperweight]

Instead of all these questions just train w/Park and see for yourselves?? All the people with all these questions have never trained in his system. All the people who have trained in his system learn to answer all questions via principles fundemental to Pa Kua chang. Once you have the principles you no longer have so many questions.

Why do Park's students not enter the "all ba gua" tournament? Some schools take pride in all the wall hangings and high kick trophies and framed paper certificates they can attain...some schools do not. You go into a Kim's karate and that's all you see. Is this a meaning of good MA?

Key point....If you know that what you have is good and what you train is good why do you need someone else to say it is good? Most people who come to Park have already done the tournament route in their younger days of searching for true kung fu. Many have lived over seas and have been in the military learning in Japan, philipeans, China, and else where. Many have trained in hard core old school karate schools (because kung fu was hard to find in the early 70s) where a busted lip and broken bones where a mark of bravery. Many were instructors of other kung fu and karate systems. Only after all this searching and kept having questions that could not be answered did they stumble upon Park. Once you find "good stuff that's true" and you already know what's good or not why do you need the director of some tournament to affirm this?

He's not a God as many mockingly suggest. He's just a man and humbly admits that every day. His common saying is that "anyone can do what he does...he has 2 arms and 2 legs just like everyone else."

I have already stated who you need to speak to for that taste you like. But again, you have been so vocal on this forum and so hostile to Park I do not believe that anyone from his system would take kindly to you. (no offense to you).

Again, the books are just a taste of what he teaches not the complete package. He does have static training...he does have sensitivity training...he does have power training practice. If you have ever talked with him or learned from him you see all of these things embodied in the man when he moves in pa kua or just moving in day to day situations.

speak to the source. speak with Park.

[blacktaoist]

Instead of all these questions just train w/Park and see for yourselves??

I don't need to train With ParK. The man not teaching anything extraordinary I want to learn. But whenever he is in New York I'm willing to crosshands with him . All you have to do is let me know when your teacher is in town.

Like I said, I know what your teacher system has, and what it don't have. I crosshands with a few people that train in Park system, and like I said before they had nothing." NonFighters. And you saying most people that train with Park use to train in other Hardcode martial arts. Your joking right?

But you claim there is more to your teacher style, I'm willing to find out by crosshands with Park or any of Park Long time Students when ever their in The New York area. I hear Park has a top student teaching in the New York China town area and in NJ. When I have time, Like I said before I'll visit these individuals and see for myself these hardcore fighters teaching Parks Ba Gua style you talking about. Because I see you can't answer my question straightforward you keep going around $hit. So it looks like I'm going to have to find some time to get around to you guys.

See you soon.

[maoshan]

My last responce on this issue.

As far as training with Park,
I have.
Not extensivly, only a siminar, but I stayed just were I was.
All my questions were answered.

Now on to the main point,
This tournament is to promote BaGua. To raise the standard if possible. To experiance other things perhaps get insight to your own techniques. To test your knowledge. How do you know your good if you don't test it? and don't tell me against your classmates. That's no good at all. The classmates learn each other
to well. The test, is the unknown. the same as if hypotheticaly, you where walking down the street and were attacked by a gang. What would you do? How do you know what you would do if you never have been there? You could freeze or any other thing, but fight. and even if you do fight, are your techniques so ingrained that you no longer have to think about it? "Steel sharpens steel".

I'm not judging anyone, the Judges will do that, I'm simply the host. This tournament will not be ruled by Politics
This Tournament will not be ruled by Politics!

You either good or your not. You can use it or you can't.
The judges are teachers themselves some of them sienior to Park in terms of time in. They are more than qualified to judge anyone competeing.

As to "Why do Park's students not enter the "all ba gua" tournament?" I Really have no Idea, It makes no sense to me, Also I wonder why, when thier supposed to be promoting Ba-gua, their at tournaments doing BaJi. Thats the biggest Puzzle to me.


{Key point....If you know that what you have is good and what you train is good why do you need someone else to say it is good? Most people who come to Park have already done the tournament route in their younger days of searching for true kung fu. Many have lived over seas and have been in the military learning in Japan, philipeans, China, and else where. Many have trained in hard core old school karate schools (because kung fu was hard to find in the early 70s) where a busted lip and broken bones where a mark of bravery. Many were instructors of other kung fu and karate systems. Only after all this searching and kept having questions that could not be answered did they stumble upon Park. Once you find "good stuff that's true" and you already know what's good or not why do you need the director of some tournament to affirm this}

Again, How do you know? Self delusion will get you hurt.
Again I'm not the Judge. Your skills will judge you, your own attainments. It's for all of Ba-Gua, It took me years to learn how to fight with this style, and that was by fighting real people not play fighting with my classmates. It was by fighting strangers that I got true experiance. Thus I know what to do in a situation.
the tournament helps the practitioner to gain that experiance in a controlled enviroment. Your excuse for them is lame.
but to each his own.

As far as he's not a God, your right. But he is teated as such.


{I have already stated who you need to speak to for that taste you like. But again, you have been so vocal on this forum and so hostile to Park I do not believe that anyone from his system would take kindly to you. (no offense to you).}

Why? because we pointed out some facts That you still can't dispute? Weather true or not he has no representation. this is obvious. I mean you've just stated all these people with all this experiance in other systems as well as being instructors themselves Where are they? come on now, this is really stupid. do your own research. I didn't make up what I posted. And I have no beef with park. it's his lack of representation. He's got schools all over the world and no rep? you tell me.

As to your last paragraph,
As I said, I have learn from him, and again I stayed where I was.
now you tell me, how is it, let's just say 5yrs you been training and you have not been exposed to the techniques of sensitivity?
That's bull.
The techniques you mention are part of the fundamentals. This is the Internal. You better ask somebody.


Now this is real you've made mention of a lot of people that you ovbviously feel are qualifiyed to represent parks school. So I'm going to do it like this.
Anybody from parks school that wants to touch hands with the BlackTaoist I'll admit for free. Because we don't belive it. please prove us wrong.

Ain't got nothin to do with being hostile it's all about skills.
show yours.

In Peace
Maoshan

[paperweight]

You guys just like the hype I see.

Here's a question for BT. You said that Park has nothing extraordinary to teach. By extraordinary what do you mean by this? How are you judging what is extraordinary and what is run of the mill? Is it the extrodinary detail in which Park teahes evey movement? Is it the logical principles his system is based on? Is it the no nonsense fighting theory and application of his system? Is it the depth of his chi gong knowledge and full body internal power? Is it the incredible listening ability of how he moves and fights? Is it his teacher's gurellia fighting expereince? Is it his weapon training and teaching expertise? Is it his humbleness that he has as a human being and willing to share knowledge? This to me is extrodinary.

I have been exposed to the techniques of sensitivity...and still have no idea of why you think his system does not have this? You said that the people you met moved like robots...this is not what Park teaches??

You guys keep saying Park's system doesn't have this and Park's system does not have that. When if you train with him...his system does have all the things you say it does not. I think the bad part is that you make the assumption... from the 5 or so robot students you met, the beginner books he has put out to get you started and the 1-2 seminars from Park you have attended... on the entire system as a whole. What you have is the appetizer or just a dumpling. The main course and then the dessert is what you seek. The people that train hard are tasting the main course and a few...only a few are tasting the dessert.

I have already given you (and other's have also) the person you need to speak with about your fighting questions. The man you make fun of in VA.

Again...with all the past hostilty from you guys on Park and his system how can you suggest that he or his students could trust you or participate in any of your events? You opennly put him down, you opennly issue challeges to him and his entire system, you say they can't fight, can't even do the basics of pa kua chang, have no power, have no real chi gong knowledge, what they do is basic external kungfu exercises, have no lineage, their teachers and past teachers are weak or do not exhist. HAHA

And why should Park or anyone in his system come to such a WARM WELCOME? To prove that he has all the things you say he does not? That's already done and is why people the world over fly to see and learn from him. The proof is in excellence. And Park is a class act with all excellence. A passion and a love for pa kua...and a training schedule that still goes on to this day...at over 60 yrs old.

If he is as fake and as unskilled and such a low level as you say...then let me be unskilled and weak. Let me practice my heart out until 60 yrs old and teach with such pride a system that has such health and self defense techniques as this "weak system" has. Let me learn the details of fighting with open hand and weapons and why you use each thing via principles. Let me learn and embody these "weak principles" that will still teach me long after Park's death.

There is nothing to prove once you know. Only many things to prove if you do not know.

[blacktaoist]

Talk , talk, talk ,is that all you Park guys good for? Like I said When So Called Master Park is in The New York or NJ area, all you have to do is let me know, its that easy. (E-mail)




I have already given you (and other's have also) the person you need to speak with about your fighting questions. The man you make fun of in VA.

Man kill the Bull$hit with fat boy. If you want me to go to VA, you must be going to pay my way to go down there, because other then that, I'm not going to waste my money, or time beating up a fat person trying to apply Parks jump step on me. Also if fat boy is so good, all he have to do is come to the Event, and we can get it on,(freefight)Him or anyone from your school. Because like I said not one of you guys can fight from Park shoool using Ba gua Zhang. And I'm willing to prove it. So stop all the talking about how great your teacher is and his superman Ba gua method, because so far all I hear is Talk , Talk, Talk. Bottom line is its time for some action. But we all know that not one of you Park students can fit the bill for some real sparring. Thats why not one of you will step up. You just can't fight. Thats all to it.

So you need to stop lying about about all these people you claim that are fighters in Park Style now training. I'm willing to spar anyone from your school,So stop talking Bull$hit, and one of you just step up, after all you clclaim Park have all these skilled martial artist training with him, becaues he so great a teacher, it should be easy for you guys to bring a few of your best fighters.

So Stop going around $hit, and just step up if Park style is so great. No one is going to be hostile it's all about skills.
show yours. Stop with your many excuse and just step up, its that sample.

[kyle]

Oh boy,here's the Mesiah again with the same old ranting preaching tape.

Would you prefer a limo or a private jet?,do you want some company also?,boys or girls?.

Yes your highness,whatever you say,LOL.

I tell you man,only in New York

To be born a donkey,is fate,to act like one is masochism.

On teaching

Traditional teachers teach by prescription,according to your needs,body type goals and character,not like a cookie cutting machine,not everybody learn or needs the same way.

There are about 3000 forms,plus 300 different chi kung in CMA alone,whos right and who's wrong?
In PaKua,even within the same lineage there are variations,but the principles remain the same.Dong Hai Chuan taught different way and different methods to Chen and Yin Fu,wich one is the right one?.

The one that fits you.

If you have 3 students,one with 3 years Tai Chi,another with 5 years Karate and the Third with no experience,different character and body type,in the begining will you put ALL of them to do standing meditations or show the same things?,nice to meet you MR lowLevel teacher.
.
Because a student doesn't know this or that part,not necesarily means the teacher don't know ,specially when it come to basics,they just get you started at different levels.

Lol,not long ago there was a beginer guy (with no patience)complaining that Master Park put him to do meditation instead of showing him how to fight with Pa Kua,guess he could be a good student for you guys.

Any complete IMA system must have Wai dan,Nei Kung and Chi Kung,Park's System have all of that,
If touching Park's books doesn't burn your hands or makes you blind,there is detail explanation on why and how he's methods are that way.
There is also an interesting article in Qi Journal.com,by Dan Miller about CHi Kung.

On Fighting

Since you guys like to pass judgment having only superficial information on thing that you are totally ignorant about,I will say so far for what I see in your web site and what you write that you are Low Level MA,
I say this because if you REALLY have power and skills ,you could very easily injure people.and will be very carefull about it(not to say that I am better than you),but that is my experience with people that are high level MA,they are very carefull to whom they show it or fight.

There is nothing worth learning from you,besides geting hit and risking injury ,
This is not a smart way to get skill,to prove what?.
Many people haven killed or crippled for life,for what?,just to play Macho Man.

Going to a tournament,full of rules that tells me,can't use this or that,to prove what?,personally I don't train for ego.

Besides,fighting is a serious and dangerous business,how many fights did you have in the last 3 years versus how many times did you get sick,well if you are not a street punk,chances are getting sick will be far more common than fighting,that is why in IMA Chi Kung training is more beneficial for you and at the same time aids in your fighting skills.

MY fighting way is my secret weapon and unless my life is in danger you will not see it.Why is it that only few students get the deep stuff,not long ago it was very difficult to find a Chinese teacher willing to share knowledge with a westener,why?,they didn't want this weapon to turn against them.

In a fight if I know your weapons and tactics ,the advantage is mine.

Do you think that fighting Master Park will teach you Pa Kua,LOL.
Park's fighting trade mark is to put people to sleep for few minutes and when you wake up you will not know what happened to you.I have seen that myself.

I think it will be healthier for you to pay tuition.

Ok,better do some training ,this kind of manure is not going to help my training.

[paperweight]

Everything you say is how tough you are. How authentic your teachers are. If this is true why are you not seeking to become a lineage student? How can you learn deeply when you are not in the door? Why are you not writing articles and publishing books to demonstrate your knowledge to your pa kua brothers?

If you write the truth about Pa Kua theory and body knowledge then you would have more than your share of people leaving their teachers to check you out for the real thing. People search years for a great teacher. My question is are you truly one or just talking like you claim everyone else is?

If you are as good and as tough as you say then that's great. If you can kick 101 people's a$$es with your pa kua you are the man. If you are a skilled Pa Kua practioner we all can respect that too. Like I said before it's your delivery that's lacking. And your disrespect that is shameful.

For such a person seeking respect and honor you certainly do not command this. A teacher commands respect and honor by his actions.

You are fighting no one but yourself.

Excellence is the true test. And Park has reached this.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Hmmm, you know I keep reading the same things over and over here. I've come to two conclusions:

1. Black Taoist is still young in the arts. He trains in a dedicated fashion and has a passion for the true usage of the arts. This results in disgust at the internal 'hippies' out there, which results in his rather brash 'straight talk'. Yes, he comes across a little immature - but everyone who is trying to do real kung fu goes through this stage. the 'fighter' stage - before they become a warrior. BT CARES about BGZ, how it is practiced and how it is viewed. He has good taste in teachers too, so here he sees a huge BGZ group that does not not seem to jibe with his experience, and he wants to know what the deal is. Fair enough. And his passion leads him to be confrontational. Understandable, as we are talking about BGZ fighting.

(Although Bt, I've got to admit when you say things like you 'don't have to be nice to people you don't want to learn from', and other well, rascist attitudes, do cast you in a bad light i.e. 'I try to train the brothers first'. What if I said I only try to teach 'white' people first? Two wrongs do not make a right, we are all in this world together, we are all brothers. Keep in mind, I am just saying this is how you come across - I don't know you, so I could be way wrong about it).

2.) Park doesn't have a rep to fight for him. Sh!t, I've only got a few clubs under me and I have five students I can name off the top of my head that will step up and play, and I'm a part-timer with a job and family. The Park PR is very impressive, but shouldn't he have a top fighter? Most schools do. He doesn't even have to win, just fight well to prove his point. With all the years of training - where are his champions? This disturbs me as I have no opinion one way or the other about Park.

Of course, BT is not challenging Park or his students directly, he is doing it on the web. But I beleive he will follow up on his promise to test the skill of Park's group, and I beleive he'll be honest about it one way or the other - as he has already proven that he's a student who is out to learn, and sometimes that means losing. I'm surprised no one in Parks group has the same attitude. Most fighting schools I have known always have someone to step out on the floor.

[blacktaoist]

paperweight

kyle

You two guys talk more Bull$hit then anybody up here on KFO, hiding behind your P.C. No profile and both of you want to talk like your have so much knowledge about Ba Gua Zhang, now thats the $hit I find funny.

Each time you two guys post a reply I find your so-called Ba Gua knowledge amusing and when you talk about your teacher skill I find it comical and laughable. Now you guys are trying to talk martial morality, as if you two unknown posters are confucius himself, you guys need to make up your mind where you want to take this. First you guys post telling me to visit Park, or fat Boy in VA, now you guys are back to talking the be humble game. I tell you, you guys are big time amusing in my eyes just as all of Park people practicing his method.:D

Bottom line is you guys come with excuse after excuse why you can't step up. You guys can never answer anyone quenstion with the true facts, always going around $hit. Not one of you unknown posters can be real with yourself, but you trying to talk about morality of deeds to me. And you fakes are always hiding Behind The P.C. behind fake names, talking Bull$hit but can't back up nothing you post. If all Park students actions are like this, Then I can see from what here on KFO, you guys are no real Ba Gua Zhang fighting school, but a school of suckers and nonfighters. teaching Bull$hit Ba Gua Methods.

IN ORDER TO BE HUMBLE, YOU MUST FIRST RID YOURSELF OF FALSE DIGNITY.

SO KILL THE BULL$HIT, AND JUST STEP UP IF YOU GUYS ARE ALL THAT.

Bottom line, if you guys want to test me, all you have to do is show up at the event its that easy. not hard at all, I don't care how you guys want to do this open or indoor, its all good.

[kyle]

Monkeyslap

" Park doesn't have a rep to fight for him"

First he doesn't need any,all I'm saying you have a problem with his teaching methods YOU GO a pay a visit,instead of calling out people like a mad dog.

Second how do you know that?,Did you trained with him?,I did.
If you did not,better to say YOU don't know any, but rest assure there are many that fight.

Did it cross your mind that they don't give a **** about these wannabes.

Another problem with this guys is that they are accusing the Teacher not only the students so in this case you the challenger need to go to the source(of course easy to say,painful to do).

We started talking about teaching methods and finished like always,i am going to kick your balls,step up.

Welcome to mouth Kung Fu.

[blacktaoist]

MonkeySlap Too


(Although Bt, I've got to admit when you say things like you 'don't have to be nice to people you don't want to learn from', and other well, rascist attitudes, do cast you in a bad light i.e. 'I try to train the brothers first'. What if I said I only try to teach 'white' people first? Two wrongs do not make a right, we are all in this world together, we are all brothers. Keep in mind, I am just saying this is how you come across - I don't know you, so I could be way wrong about it).


Monkeyslap, I train anyone that wants to learn Ba Gua Zhang, But at the time most of my students are african american, this is because where I teach Ba Gua Zhang is mostley in black neighborhoods (New York City housing) I teach Ba Gua Zhang to many individuals that live in these housing neighborhoods, where there are no white Americans.

As for teaching Ba Gua Zhang to other ethnic groups, I feel most of these ethnic groups have some one from their kind, teaching them information about the internal martial arts. I can go to any Ba Gua Zhang web site, and you find most Ba Gua sites are run by a White American and a few Chinese individuals. But from my knowledge theres no african American Ba Gua Zhang web site. The only african American Ba gua Zhang web site out is mys. So right now I feel this my job to raise the awareness of my people, and give true information about the true martial art methods of Ba Gua Zhang. And so far I'm doing a great job, I get e-mails from all over the world, even African, where I be doing a Ba gua work shop some time next year.

Monkeyslap my father always told me, in this world, you going to have people that are going to love, envy you, and hate you. thats just the way of life. But no matter what always keep your center and blackness. ( African identification) for that is who you are. and I live by my father words.



(Although Bt, I've got to admit when you say things like you 'don't have to be nice to people you don't want to learn from'

I never make post or write a statement like that, What I said was, don't waste your time learning from fakes, most of the teachers that is world renowned as grandmasters of Ba Gua Zhang are nonfighters, I have met many fakes , and I do mean fake Ba Gua zhang teachers in the U.S.A and even in China. You can call me a low level Black Robert W. Smith, I seek out many So Called Ba gua experts, and the only thing they could show was forms, just like it is today forms, drills and talk of lineage. But when its time to utilize Ba Gua Zhang techniques in a sparring situation many of these so called Ba gua maters can't apply $hit from their Ba Gua method. Today Ba Gua is a sad situations, to the point where is mostly dance Ba Gua Zhang, what I call the circle walk of fun. "

So monkeyslap, you are right when you say my passion for Ba Gua leads to to be confrontational. I'm all for the real practical side of Ba Gua Zhang combat, and I take no less. If Park Have top people that can get down, well I just want to meet up with them and spar thats all. My actions have nothing to do with ego or be hostile as his people try to make it seem. Its all about skill, nothing more.

[count]

Originally posted by count

I take it you are attempting to learn bagua from this system? May I ask, how often do you get hands on with Park or one of his certified instructors? OR have you had the opportunity yet? If not, is that your intention and did you get interested through the books and tapes?

Kyle and Paperweight, I already got some excellent and honest answers on this from jafc. How about you guys. Sounds like this method is working for you too. (except for the control part) Could you answer some of these questions and others in thread. Especially the ones posted by BT but he's not the only one in this discussion. Instead of making it a P issing contest maybe some truth and value could come out of it. At least then we could see if the rest of what you are saying is of value too. Seems to me if someone asks

2. Where is the Ba Gua Zhang Kun Shou (tui Shou push hands and push legs) training in Park method? BASIC."
The answer is either we don't need that because... or we train that this way... No sense making a deal out of it.:rolleyes:

[blacktaoist]

kyle You and your boy paperweight are just to Fake Ba Gua wannabes from that Ba Gua New Jersey school.





First he doesn't need any,all I'm saying you have a problem with his teaching methods YOU GO a pay a visit,instead of calling out people like a mad dog.

You know some thing you are right , I'm going to pay your school a visit this Week, thats My word." I'm coming to test skills. We see who is all talk when I get there. I bring only four students of Wudang with me, and my students also will be willing to spar and one of you guys.



but rest assure there are many that fight.

Boy this I have to see, I hope you are telling the truth. See you this week.

[blacktaoist]

Count you make a good point.

Why can't you two guys answer any of my questions about training or other Ba Gua practitioners questions that post up here straightforward. With information that have true facts.

Like where do that bizarre called k'ou pu and pai pu circle walking chi kung method come from, that your teacher is now claiming to teach. What Yin Ba Gua lineage dones this so called leg chi kung method come from, what Yin Style teacher or Ba Gua system?


Can you answer these few questions with out going around $hit.

[paperweight]

Like I said the only one you fight is yourself.

You know the man to see...but refuse to go.

With your question about chi gong...I ask you a more basic question. What is chi gong? And why do you take such offense to Park's method? Have you tried it? I don't think you have or you would find it's value.

Ting jin training...I say again...it's in there. It's a complete system. Fighting training? It's in there. It's a complete system. Chi gong? Power development? It's in there...it's a complete system.

You guys always ask "how?" Pointless questions that only bring about more questions. "How" do you train knife fighting? "How" do you train hand fighting? "How" do you train chi gong? "How" do you train power? Into infinity. The answer..go train with Park and see. The only thing answering these questions does is bring about more useless questions.

You don't have people travel the world over with decades of martial experience for a teacher without ting jin...or for a person teaching "fake stuff."

BT if you are so well informed in Pa Kua. Tell us the steps of nei gong development. The breathing processes...the postures...why you use certain breaths to develop what? What is the process for learning a form? What is special about learning Pa Kua compared to learning other martial styles?

If you think the Ko Bu Bai Bu chi kung is "fake." Then say why. What is it missing? Why is it "fake." How does it not fit into the big picture? It's clear that you have not learned the big picture yet...this is why you are so angry at others who do not follow your mold. So many ways to get to the same place. Your way is only one of many. Again your lack of humilty shines through. This will be your one life lesson that will arise over and over again in your life.

I think this is why you hate the system...it's because you have not fully explored any one style of Pa kua to understand it deeply. You only go by what you have seen or read but not understood to make it your own yet. Going to china once a year is not learning a system. Living near a teacher and becoming an inner door student is the ONLY way to learning deeply.

[williamsremo]

Hey, Black Taoist!
You ever consider that these two, Kyle and Paperweight may just be outsiders attempting to throw gas on the fire between you and Park's school. If they were real they should be making challenges for themselves not telling you to go see some guy in VA. Only a coward will make a challenge for someone other than himself. Or maybe someone who would like to start a fight between two other people and then stand back and enjoy what they have caused. Don't let them sucker you in to this. The road you are on can only lead to trouble. If park's school feels the need to prove anything, they will step up. If they don't feel the need, they won't. But to go to one of their schools because some ananomous A$$holes are doing this is a mistake.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Thanks, good answer. The posts I was thinking of (I'm am too fat and lazy to look for them) could be easily misinterpreted. I really respect what your doing insofar in getting out there, training and be willing to fight.

Correct me if I am wrong - but you are offering a friendly match - not a smack down. I know some teachers would just ignore this, but most of the guys I've trained with would be more than happy to do some kind of match, so again I'm puzzled why Park has no known rep. I can tell you the top fighters from most good schools that I know.

I'd argue that there are two scenarios: 1.) Park is legit, and he just does not care. He's got a big organization, why mess it up with a loss or a lawsuit (just like Tyson would not fight the Gracies.) 2.) Park knows he's not teaching fighting or legit BGZ, so he won't do it. (But there is evidence of Park's team fighting back in his Korea days...)

Have you thought about offering a proper challenge or invitation?

Kyle or paperweight - It's one thing to be a 'fighter', it's another to fight. In my day I fought ALL the time, any rules. Sometimes it worked for me, sometimes against. But you learn when you fight. It is true that you are limited in free fighting - but not so much that you can't prove your skill. But all kinds of sparring over different drill opportunities. And just fighting your own people does not count. Just a thought.

So - I've blabbed enough. Is there any Park BGZ in San Francisco? I'd love to see some, and I can gaurentee I'm a good guest. I'm curious and I won't write anything about the experience pro or con.

[kyle]

BT

"But to tell you the truth the kind palm drills park have in his method are irrelevant, if you are practicing real Ba Gua Zhang neijiaquan power methods."

Count

Does the above statement looks to you that this guy is interesting in knowing about Park methods.Please.

I know were you are coming from,we are here to learn and exchange info,read the posts ,Count

BT has one of those Love-Hate relationships with Park and students.figure that one out.

Paperweight offered to cool things downin other posts,but this guy comes bitting back like a mad Barracuda man.It's like a forbiden love story or something,who knows.

Don't think you are going to get much info from me with that kind of attitude.

In the first book you have various basic two-person steping in and Fan Chang exercises ,stationary,straight line ,circle walking and free style to develop sensitivity,timing,reflex,balance,smooth change etc,sorry you will need to read the book for an in depth explanation,.
Static postures? take your pick,I Chuan,the 8 animals,are trained ,holding each one separately ,in a stationary Chi Kung Set and circle walking,see book, Dragon stance is trained similar to Xing YI San Ti,


BT

Where Kou Bu,Pai Pu Chi Kung comes from?

Uuhhh!!,China?.....,or India?.....no,no...Africa,yes it comes from Africa,does this make you smile brother?.

Enjoy your training,you get old very fast.

[blacktaoist]

monkeyslap

Have you thought about offering a proper challenge or invitation?

Thats why I'm strepping down there this week to give them a face to face proper challenge. And if the teacher of that school whats to crosshands right there and then, I'm all for it. But thats my word.



Correct me if I am wrong - but you are offering a friendly match - not a smack down.

You are right, but I want it to be a full-contact match using Ba Gua Zhang. I want to see just had good these guys claim they are with Ba Gua Zhang.




I think this is why you hate the system...it's because you have not fully explored any one style of Pa kua to understand it deeply. You only go by what you have seen or read but not understood to make it your own yet. Going to china once a year is not learning a system. Living near a teacher and becoming an inner door student is the ONLY way to learning deeply

Man I see you don't know what to post , you sometimes just post the dumbest replys. For one I been learning Yin style Ba Gua Zhang from my Chen Xiaoping from 1995 to now 2002, (7-years)so what makes you think I'm not his inner door student. By the way my sifu will be at the all Ba Gua tournament why don't you ask him. I am the only student he taught the whole Cao Zhongsheng's Yin branche too. But I guess this makes me a out door student, I'm the only student that have his home number and can sleep over his house whenever I want to. But you claim I'm not a inner door student of his.

Like I said my sifu Will be at the event, anyone can ask him where I stand with him. And that go's for my other Yin style teacher Master Xu Shi Xi in Beijing China. if your dumb ass, ever in your life it to go to China.



You don't have people travel the world over with decades of martial experience for a teacher without ting jin...or for a person teaching "fake stuff."

THEN WHERE THE HELL ARE THESE MARTIAL EXPERIENCE PEOPLE AT IN YOUR SCHOOL? HOPE THIS WEEK THESE PEOPLE ARE AROUND.BECAUSE I STILL SAY YOU ARE LYING. but its only a matter of days to the truth for me to find out.

As for your dumb question on how I train, I done explain many times before on KFO the many way I train in my style of Ba gua Zhang. Also you go to my web Site to learn. RIGHT FAN." MAKE SUCH YOU KEEP GIVING MY WEB SITE MORE HITS.:D

williamsremo:


If they don't feel the need, they won't. But to go to one of their schools because some ananomous A$$holes are doing this is a mistake.

YOU ARE RIGHT IN A WAY, bUT THESE TWO PUNKS LOVE TALKING $HIT WHEN IN FACT I KNOW WHO THEY ARE. THEY ARE FROM THAT NJ SCHOOL . AND IF I SEE YOU TWO PUNKS AT THE ALL BA GUA EVENT, I'M STEPPING TO YOU. I NEVER FORGET A FACE. BUT I GUESS THESE TWO FOOLS WILL HIDING WITHIN THE MASS AUDIENCE.:o

[blacktaoist]

kyle YOU ARE JUST A NO PROFILE HIDING BEHIND YOUR P.C. PUNK A FEW POST BACK YOU CLAIM THAT I HAD LOW LEVEL WUSHU. I CALL YOU OUT ON YOUR CLAIM AND LIKE THE PUNK YOU ARE YOU DID NOT STEP UP.


Does the above statement looks to you that this guy is interesting in knowing about Park methods.Please.

Bt)You are right, because them palm drills are Bull$hit, and they are not real Ba Gua Zhang drills. How you Mother****ers trying to fool with that Bull$hit. Hsing Yi Boxing footwork drills trying to pass as Ba Gua Footwork. YOU Mother****ers are a joke. But the joke is going to Be on you, When I see you Fake fools this week.


BT has one of those Love-Hate relationships with Park and students.figure that one out.

Bt) the only love I have is for my woman, As for you fake mother****ers, I'm just telling the martial artist the truth, theres nothing to figure. Park been lying from day one. thats all to it.


Where Kou Bu,Pai Pu Chi Kung comes from?

Uuhhh!!,China?.....,or India?.....no,no...Africa,yes it comes from Africa,does this make you smile brother?.

I know were you are coming from,we are here to learn and exchange info,read the posts ,Count

BT) You have nothing to exchange, because you have no real knowledge of yor own, every then you just post seems to be taking from other KFO posters interpretations of martial art knowledge, I even see a little of count $hit in your post reply. Whats the matter you can't establish your own guiding principles from God****her Ba Gua Park. Maybe if he teach more then just for one day , out of the year you learn something. Then trying to take from other people post. Because like I said before you guys don't have push hands or standing Chi Kung, so stop lying.

Where Kou Bu,Pai Pu Chi Kung comes from?

Uuhhh!!,China?.....,or India?.....no,no...Africa,yes it comes from Africa,does this make you smile brother?.

Bt) Like I said you can't answer my Question, because your dumb ass don't know. Why? Because Park made that Bull$hit up just like he did with them Bull$hit palm drills. You mother****ers are Big Time fakes.

You are right I have no love for Bull$hit fake as Ba Gua Zhang Teachers. Thats why not one you punks will step up because you all know what you are learning is useless against real fighters. I put you guys right back on your ass, just like I did the first time. I'm not going to be nice anymore, anytime someone ask me about you guys system or e-mail me, for now on I'm going to tell them the truth. Park is a ****ING BIG FAKE."

Thats just the bottom line."

[paperweight]

Your hate for everything that Park touches is odd.

Just read your posts. I would say that unless you are mad at someone or trying to prove your dominance you are lost in this world. You do not like peace. You thrive from anger and hatred.

I say it again. This type of thinking only contracts you makes you less.

You keep saying "fake." It would be one thing if Park taught fake things but it's all good stuff and makes sense logically. There is no crazy beliefs just practical knowledge.

What I don't understand is there are LOTS of true fakes out there and yet you focus on Park.

And again. You avoid my questions time after time just like you say I avoid your questions. So if you say i'm not real then you are not real also. You are as "fake" as I am. And as "fake" as you say Park is. The true tell is that when you get frustrated you resort to violence. When the level goes beyond what you know you resort to violence. How can you ever reach a high level?

You say Park's chi gong is fake. But have no idea what chi gong is? Or point to specifics at why his chi gong goes against pa kua principles. How does it not fit into the bigger picture.

These are the DEEP questions. And with only 7 years of experience you do not know the whole picture. If you are the only one to learn all of this info from your sifu why did it take you only 7 years?

7 years is baby years. 7 years is just enough time to build up the foundations in a modern day training schedule.

And to all the people who say that BT's challenges are not hostile they better read his other posts. They are very hostile. They contain flowery language of someone living in a fantasy world of old day China.

There is no conflict with you. Why do you keep your conflict going? Why do you need this constant negative attention drawn to you? Is this how your personal life is? Is this how you solve all of your problems? You dislike peace and friedship with a passion. Every attempt to reach peace and you reject it. Why must you prove your dominance again and again. We know you are tough and are real. You have nothing more to prove. But something with in you does NOT truly believe this yet. OR you would not be on this board day and day and day claiming how strong you are.

You call yourself the Black Taoist. I see and read from you that you have none of the principles of a true Taoist with in you. None of it is embodied or integrated into you being. You are more of an Agressor then a Taoist. You are more of a person dealing with old hurts as a young man trying to prove he's not scared anymore as an adult. These things are clear. Not a jugement on you but just a blazing imbalance that is clear.

And I question you sifu?? How can any sifu respect or teach student with such bad and shameful principles? Any high level sifu I know would kick their student out for making such trouble and showing such disrespect.

[Daredevil]

Yeah, some of what BT posts sounds sometimes hostile. I'd bet, he's probably cool outside his flamboyant writing though. And while I may agree with some of paperweights comments, the fact and question still remains.

Baguazhang is a martial art.

Paperweight wrote:
You keep saying "fake." It would be one thing if Park taught fake things but it's all good stuff and makes sense logically. There is no crazy beliefs just practical knowledge.

Makes sense logically? Uhh, okay, that may be. If its practical knowledge then it should be tested and I don't mean anything else but a _friendly_ sparring session.

I can even understand folks practising martial arts and not wanting to take part in that kinda stuff (hey, to each their own), but that should be an exception. I'd think you could find someone to step up and put to practise that what is taught at a MARTIAL arts school.

So, BT may come off as hostile, but you guys are still dodging the point.

Just had to chime in. Both have made their points and I don't think this argument is going anywhere.

[Brad]

And to all the people who say that BT's challenges are not hostile they better read his other posts. They are very hostile. They contain flowery language of someone living in a fantasy world of old day China.

BT using flowery language of someone living in an old chinese fantasy world? What the heck??

I guess you could consider "mother****er" flowery if you really want to ;) I find his posts very straightforward and usually pretty easy to follow.

[count]

Originally posted by kyle
BT

"But to tell you the truth the kind palm drills park have in his method are irrelevant, if you are practicing real Ba Gua Zhang neijiaquan power methods."

Count

Does the above statement looks to you that this guy is interesting in knowing about Park methods.Please.Actually it's the kind of question that could tell a lot about what a person learns from a teacher and how. A good answer might have been, 'we practice internal training methods too, they just aren't shown to beginners or on the tapes because that information would only confuse someone trying to learn.' or 'Even though the focus is on developing internal, all arts are external at first.' or 'I don't understand the teaching method enough to comment'.


I know were you are coming from,we are here to learn and exchange info,read the posts ,Count
Uh, no, I go to a teacher to learn from. I am just curious how and what other people are learning, especially when they don't have full time access to a teacher.



Paperweight offered to cool things downin other posts,I would have prefered to hear answers to the questions. Then I could tell if what he is offering is cool or not. But instead you guys are getting angry and attacking, things are escalating into a war of words, no real information is coming from anyone, this threads out of control and not worth reading anymore.

in the first book you have various basic two-person steping in and Fan Chang exercises, stationary, straight line,circle walking and free style to develop sensitivity,timing,reflex,balance,smooth change etc,sorry you will need to read the book for an in depth explanation,. Static postures? take your pick, I Chuan,the 8 animals,are trained, holding each one separately ,in a stationary Chi Kung Set and circle walking,see book, Dragon stance is trained similar to Xing YI San Ti,
I already said I saw the video's and book. I'm not interested in what's on them as much as what you got from them. My questions are more about the transmision than the method.

Paperweight,

Your whole last posts is ridiculous. What do you expect to get from that? Are you trying to teach someone a lessons or just venting? Are you protecting the world from something? Defending your teacher who, BTW, doesn't need your help defending himself? It reaks of assumptions and I know your going to hear about it. Problem is, We'll never get to the real heart of the topic. I really wanted to hear more about how this method of learning is working. Answering some of the questions would be helpful to see if people are actually learning something. If a public conversation is too much, maybe you could contact me privately. I am not attacking you or your sifu. I don't even know who your sifu is. Do you study from Park directly or from one of his certified instructors?

[blacktaoist]

paperweight Talk, talk,......BlackTaoist you are not a true taoist....talk talk talk......... Like I said you are fakes so you stay anything, so you don't have to step up, how sad is that you practice a useless art. Ok this is the part when you are going to tell everyone how Great is Park and people from all over the world fly in to see this shadowless teacher.

Like I told you two no profile hiding punks, I'm going to see just how good you punks are this week, and nothing you say on KFO is going to change that.

I find you two punks amusing, at the same time you two punks try to art like martial artist, but from reading you two to fools post, I can see your scare. But I should have known you was a punk , just look at your internet name PAPERWEIGHIGT."


You are just to funny to me, for me to get upset, and by the way I have been practiticing Ba Gua Zhang for over 20 years, Frist with Sifu Rudy curry Jr. Who was a long time student of the Late B.P. Chan, The man B,.P.Chan himself. I been doing Ba Gua Zhang since the 80's punk, as well as Tai Chi, Hsing Yi Boxing. :D


But anyway I don't have to explain myself to you punks, if you think I don't have skills or I can't teach, Well I have many good students that I know love to spar.


What I find real funny is you two punks tell me to go visit one of Park schools, So I said to myself What the heck, I'm flying to VA, but there is Park Cats teaching in New York and N.J. area So I said to myself this week I make some free time, For Me and a few of my Boys will take a ride out there and see whats up with this Great Ba Gua Zhang style that people, and skilled martial artists are fly from all over the world to learn from Park and his many certified instructors. So you claim.

So I'm going to see for myself this week this Great Ba Gua Zhang method you are talking about so much. For me Ba gua Zhang is about the skillls, nothing more nothing less.

See you...

[paperweight]

1) Nothing on this board promotes anything useful.

The posts on the emptyflower site spark great insight and conversation. Here it's all BT going off on someone else's system for no reason. Just threats.

There's no anger toward BT from Park's side so why is BT constantly on Park?

2) Pa Kua is a martial art. No one doubts this from either side? If you take it you train to fight OR know when not to fight.

-----------------

With this said. There is no beef w/BT. But he keeps wanting to fuel the fire for some reason? Keeps saying this chi gong is fake. Never seen that chi gong. But has no basis for saying it? Doesn't know why it fake? Or how it doesn't follow Pa Kua principles or how it does or does not fit into the larger picture.

Since BT keeps his fire w/Park it must be something internal with in him that is causing this.

[Walter Joyce]

In an earlier post BT spoke of having to defend himself from a physical attack by two or more of Park's students, FWIW.

[blacktaoist]

Daredevil


Makes sense logically? Uhh, okay, that may be. If its practical knowledge then it should be tested and I don't mean anything else but a _friendly_ sparring session.

Thats all I'm looking for this Week, a nice friendly Sparring Session to test skills With Park or any of his certified instructors. These guys act like I'm going to kill them or something, these guys are to comical, I think they need to stop looking at the old New Jack City movie.



I'd bet, he's probably cool outside his flamboyant writing though.

Yo I am. If you ever come to New York we can meet up and you can see for yourself. I love to hang out the ladys. posting to these punks is just my way of wasting some time on my job.


But when It comes to Ba Gua Zhang you are right , its a martial art, So I want to visit these cats and see this Great Ba Gua Zhang method of Parks in action, nothing more, nothing less.

[blacktaoist]

paperweight, Ok if it makes you happy, I stop calling your Great Ba Gua Teacher Park a Fake. Ok Are you Happy Now?


Now will you answer my first Questions, As well count Questions.

Also you told me to visit Park schools So I see nothing wrong with me visiting Your teacher schools in my area. After all you claim Park have many experience martial artist in all his schools, so it should not matter what school I visit, because you guys have skilled people that was learning other martial arts before they came to Park, so you claim.

So I plan to find out......Thats all to it. Nothing more, or nothing less.

[kyle]

BT

How's your liver?.

You Have a girlfriend?,mmm...that is odd,people tell me that in your last trip to China you decided to become an EUNUCH in order to emulate Don Hai Chuan,hoping to gain more skills.

Black Eunuch,certaily fits you better than BlackTaoist.LOL

Just kidding.

FINALLY,you are begining to make sense.

AHH!!,and don't forget to bring your ID,who knows your ass might
end up in jail or the hospital.


good luck.

[paperweight]

Yes it is a free country and you are free to do as you wish.

But I would call the school and ask if they accept challenge matches. Just showing up could cause much problems for you and them.

And I don't think they will view your challenge as "friendly." After all the posts you have writen the word "friendly" is only a recent thing.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I think you were mixing posts with somebody elses out there. I don't think I ever commented on your training, as I mentioned I don't know you.

What I hear about you on the grapevine is pretty good, so I look forward to meeting you someday, but please clarify whjo you are knocking down, I hate to be held to anothers words.

[blacktaoist]

paperweight, There is no need for me to Call, I'm just going to show up, thars all to it. Im going to challenge their skills. If Park guys are so good as you claim then they should not have a problem taking me up on my Challenge. You people should have a very easy time beating me.

Like I said, I see this week just how good this Park method is in Freefighting. When I say friendly I'm going with only 4 of my students, that is what I call frendly. I have many other students that want to test the waters for me. But I want to test the waters myself of this High level Ba Gua Zhang method, that many people are flying from all parts of the world to learn, so you claim. These Park certified instructors must be high level Right. After all Park certifiend them to teach his method, and from what you are posting, its a great fighting style. So I will just have to see how true these claims you are making are.

Monkeyslap sorry for the mix up.

[Water Dragon]

Let us know what happens.

[paperweight]

a man's got to do what he has to.

Good luck I hope you find what you are looking for.

[The Willow Sword]

Why the Fuk should Anyone care about who else does what? If you dont agree with the methods and teaching of another school,,then YOU DONT HAVE TO WASTE YOUR TIME AND TRAINING ENERGY *****ing about it. Just do what you do BT and All you park students,,Do what it is that YOU do. Jesus H mutherfukkin christ on a rubber crutch,,if this were the old days where challenges and insults were taken SERIOUSLY,,someone would be DEAD by now. Its madness i tell you.
Look man, all i am saying is that The teaching and training is different with every teacher and every master of a system. BT, your system and lineage focuses more on the reality combat, Parks stuff focuses on the health and qigong and the self defense. I have never known parks system to be that of a Balls to bones fighting system,,some people dont want to take martial arts to fight,,they just want to improve themselves through that path but no necesarily go to the ring or the tournament.
So if Parks students are talking sh!t,,,,Fuk em man. who gives a rats A$$? Let them step into your circle BT. Keep your door open to educate rather than to issue challenges of your own.
So if you feel the NEED to go and test yourself against Park then go and do it. do it on your own time and money and reap what you sow. Maybe Park will accept your challenge,,maybe he will tell you to go fuk yourself,,,at least you can say that YOU went down there own your own and made the attempt. If parks students come to your kwoon and challenge you,,,then there you have the reverse of the situation. If it were My kwoon i would tell them to go fuk themselves and call the police and have them arrested for harrassment. it doesnt mean that i am a coward or that the school is crap,,just means that my kwoon has better things to do than to accomodate dumb muther fukkers that dont know **** about Mo Duk.
Many Respects BT,,,The Willow Sword

[regulator]

and what the fuk exactly do you know about mo duk anyways? if you had a clue you wouldn't have posted what you just said. guess what TWS, if someone walks into your school and challenges you, and you DON'T stand up and then on top of it you run off and call the cops... YOU HAVE NO MO DUK, period.

use your head genius, and don't dismiss what i say just because you don't know who i am the way you dismiss what Nick Lo says for the same reasons. who i am has NOTHING to do with the validity of my statements.

i could be very high level ... or i could be a pimply 14 year old kid who gets his jollies off from watching you post useless drivel and get bent out of shape when you get called on it...

who knows? people like me post because people like you pollute the forums with your crap. if you would stick to what you KNOW instead of what you WISH you knew, or WANT to know, perhaps you wouldn't get targeted by folks like me (or Nick Lo, for that matter).

while i may not agree with BT's methods all the time, i do agree with one of his main points, and that is to keep the tao REAL like he says... the man wants to have the REAL DEAL and i can completely respect that.

so before you rant and rave about your reverse egocentric psychobabble pseudo lovey dovey newagey bunny rabbits and flowers philosophical BULL$HIT , just remember... as Nick Lo once stated... you spent a vast amt of time in your role as a "form dancing meal ticket for a man with a mullet"... and you don't know jack about mo duk.

[The Willow Sword]

:o


(ir)regulator an Nick low(life) can both go and bump D!ckheads or push thier Sh!t in for all i care.:rolleyes:

[razakdigital]

****,

I got your instructions off my voicemail today and I will holla back at you...

BT, I'm down for whatever, if you want to roll I'm in there like swimwear...I'm ready to put on the sh*tkickers and to handle this with the quickfast...it's time for some thug pakua...

I'm telling you BT i know who paperweight and klye is and I will point them out... you watch ...

[paperweight]

How sad it has come to this again.

violence only spawns violence.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I don't advocate storming a school - that's bad manners in today's society. But what is wrong with offering a challenge?

I think I understand TWS, he came from SD, and when he stepped out of that pool he discovered that karate material is not 'combat' kung fu. He also made a good point that some people just don't train for fighting.

What if Park's guys just say 'hey, we are teaching / practicing for health, not fighting.' What then?

[count]

Originally posted by paperweight


violence only spawns violence.

I don't know MonkeySlapToo, that sounds as close to an answer as anything I have heard in this thread and sounds like an acceptance to me.

if you want to roll I'm in there like swimwearRazaz, do you copyright your stuff? I'd like to use that in my signature?

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too


What if Park's guys just say 'hey, we are teaching / practicing for health, not fighting.' What then?

Well, as long as they don't promote themselves as a fighting school, I don't see a problem.

Oh yeah, did some more work last night. It's definately the spine that's the pivot. Let's see what comes out of that :confused:

[blacktaoist]

All I want to do is see how skillful theses certified instructors of Park are. The ones teaching in my area are Ion ionescu and that Guy Ray Ahles, who is the Ba Gua teacher of the Bergen Kung Academy in N.J.

I'm look to see these great Ba Gua Zhang skills that paperweight is always posting about. He claims that Park people are all good fighers, So fortunately I've sometime this week to find out.

I hear from some of my resource that Park train student Ion Ionescu can hit a person eight times in a secound, also this guy Ray is one of Park good fighters. Well he should be he is a certified instructor Of Park.

I'm not looking for trouble, all I want is to test skills, thats all. And if their a Ba Gua Zhang fignting School as they claim their are, there should be no problem to accept a little freefighting match. If I get beat, I get beat I have no problem getting my ass kick if Park people are that good. But Like I said before I crosshands with a few of his people before, and they didn't have nothing. Well I guess the real fighters are the certified instructors of Park. Well, that have to be, Because they are teaching Park method as a fighting art,,,,Well I will soon see

As far the challenge being "friendly thats up to Park people when I show. after all I'm coming to their house, I already welcome them to my house for free, and not one of them step up. But they claim to have all these experience fighters in his system from all parts of the world.

Like I said, I soon find out.

[razakdigital]

The bottom line is that do claim to be fighters and thats all good...and if they want to use pa kua for health its great....I have no problem with that either because its not of my concern...my issue is when they act (when I mean they I mean the students that are on this board talking sh*t....only them) they can fight and they hide behind a computer...even in Park's book he discusses fighting methods and being on the offensive and defensive...now that they are being tested they want to conveniently step to the health aspect of it and like we are the violent ones...

bottom line once we step to this board some ago all the foolishness of taking about combat and not fooling people was over because we question everything because we train for combat and we want to learn and step our game up...we train for health and other aspect as well but that is all in the pakua package...

you guys forget that pa kua is a warrior art...Dong Hai was not a a model citizen - it was rumored he was a thief...what about 10 day Ma? ...

One more thing... I posted earlier that I would point out paperweight and kyle to BT....I'm don't hide behind my trainer like these guys do for Park...that was meant as a statement to show who is who...I can deal with them myself...

[blacktaoist]

paperweight,


violence only spawns violence.

This is not about Violence, this is about truth. And thats all I plan to find out. If you guys are good, then this week I will find out. Now if it was about violence, I would have been row down to your school with more then four people. Man you just don't know who you are ****ing with. But you are about to find out. I told you before I do Ba Gua Zhang for real. This is not a game for me, but you are about to find out very soon.


Razak you didn't have to post, like I told the rest of the students I can handle my own fights. Thats why maoshon don't post anything. Because he know what time it is with these Park guys.

But this week we see whats up.

[looking_up]

BT,

Are you videotaping the event (visit to Park's school) for posterity's sake?

Also, I would be interested in Maoshan's tournament video when it is all said and done, but I don't think I'll be able to afford the
usual $50+, do you know how much you'll be charging?


Peace -
- LU

[blacktaoist]

looking_up

I don't take these Park individuals for real, I said before I find these two guys comical and laughable for me to take serious. I already know who these individuals are that was trying to hide behind their P.C.



I going have one of my students tape this match, if it gos down. I see what happen when I call and e-mail these So called experts of Parks Ba Gua Zhang teaching.

As for the all Ba gua Zhang tape, you have to E-mail Maoshan for information about it. niwah64@hotmail.com

Peace

[paperweight]

BT hates Park's Pa Kua.

BT issues challenge.

BT get's angry.

BT curses.

BT says he's for real.

BT says no one knows who they are dealing with.

round and round the cirlce goes.

BT we all know who you are and that you are for real. Who doubts this?

You have to go inside and understand where this comes from.

Your obsession with Park is unhealthy. Look at how much bad Pa kua is out there. Why do you focus on the good?

[looking_up]

Thanks BT.

I hope to see some interesting video. I have never seen bagua
used properly for fighting. I'll check in next week to see if your challenge was accepted in the name of Park's bagua's honor or
whatever. I don't have as much time to visit these boards, I'm trying to train with consistency. With work and class and a woman, well, you know how it can be.


Peace -
LU

"The only skill I can truly understand and talk about is my own."

[blacktaoist]

BT hates Park's Pa Kua

I don't hate, I just tell you my opinion.



BT issues challenge

All I want to do is crosshands, You know do a little Ba Gua Zhang freefighting, test the waters of this great Ba Gua Zhang method you talk so highly of. whats wrong with that.


BT curses.

This is America, who don't.


BT get's angry.

Angry I don't think so. In fact I see you guys are the ones upset and angry. At the same time I find you guys are comical.


Your obsession with Park is unhealthy. Look at how much bad Pa kua is out there. Why do you focus on the good?

If anyone have an obsession with that old Koren man, its your ass. Anyone reading your posts replys can see that $hit.
I only post my opinions (VIEWPOINTS.") about ParKs System My Veiws have nothing to do with an obsession or being angry, as you trying to make it seem. My opinion is just that, MY OPINION." The only obsession I have is Real Ba Gua Zhang Teachers, beer and LADYS." So kill all the other Bull$hit you are trying to make up.

If you good , your good. But the only way to find out is someone is good in the martial arts, is to crosshands not be talkative. I can name off of the top of my head, ten of my students that can exhibit some Ba Gua Zhang in freefighting, if someone was to come see me, and wanted to test the waters of what I teach, and they be willing to show them too.

So I don't see way you guys can't do the same, if your school is a Fighting school of Ba Gua Zhang as you are claiming.

But Like always people love to talk, nothing wrong with that I guess, After all this is a martial art talk forum where people love to hide behind the P.C. and talk alot of Bull$hit about the internal martial arts, but when its time to show and tell, that when all the excuse and you should be more humble Bull$hit is discuss. Because most practicing the so called internal martial arts, know their full of $hit. Being full of $hit is they way of keeping it real in the so called internal martial arts.

No need to test, just take my word this teacher is the best. I hear this statement all the time.

I myself met many individuals that claim they was all that in chinese boxing, but when I met them they had none of the great skills they was claiming.

So when I met up with other Ba Gua Zhang practitioners. My motto is:

KILL ALL THE TALK, AND LETS CROSS."

I find this method works very well to weed out all the Ba Gua Zhang fakes out there.

[StaggerLee]

If one ever 'finds the time' to commence this encounter--presumably in a week,year,decade or two,by all means spill your guts.

Of course time like that is hard to come by.After all there must be at least another million or so horses to thrash.

[The Willow Sword]

Have you even called up Park bok Nam? he has his number on his website.

i was able to talk with him once when he was giving a seminar in Houston,Tx. im sure he would be willing to speak with you.

MRTWS

[apoweyn]

evolutionfist,


Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Actually, a picture can tell a lot soemtimes. In this magazine alone, sometime son the Burt's offerings or soemthing, many times the photo is displaying a technique where Burt is hitting someone witha stick, but the trained eye can see that his attacker, if really attacking, could just as well reach him. Also, a sharper eye will note he's holding the stick a good three inches up from the but. An inch is a mile with a weapon.

actually, the sharper eye backfired on you, my friend. not to be incendiary, but a picture can tell you a lot more when you already understand what you're looking at. whether the picture in question shows good technique or no, i can't say. but he's holding the stick a good three inches from the butt for a reason. it's called 'punyo.' the butt of the stick is used for short hammering hits. but more importantly, it's used to trap and manipulate the opponent's limbs (which you would be less able to do without the punyo). an inch is a mile with a weapon. but that only helps if you want to be a mile away. if you want to be closer, you're going to need the capability to control the opponent. and for that, it helps to have the punyo.

as i said, you can tell some things from a picture. but the conclusions drawn will only be as solid as the experience upon which they're based. i'm not suggesting that your experience is weak. only that it varies from the experience upon which that technique is based. judging it within context and with a similarly experienced eye seems appropriate.


stuart b.

[Ray Pina]

Actually, I'm well aware of the difference and why. If you remember we had this discussion a while ago agreed to disagree.

Some people will teach you how to use the butt end of a pistol to beat someone over the head. Is that wrong? I guess not.

I'd rather invest in pulling the trigger. Someone has to get close to use the butt for trapping, or God forbid hitting. By that point, someone's wrist should me smashed.

But I must admit some ignorance in this department because I am not comfotable fighting with weaponry -- yet. That's just being honest. Hand to hand I'll fight anyone. When it comes to weapons I'm all ears.

The major point was, in most cases these photos never account for the other guy. He freezes while the "master" does several -- allmost always unrealistic -- moves.

In another thread today I made mention of a Bruce Lee student in IKF who's kicking a bag and practically falling backwards. Why would they choose this photo? Terrible form? Zero function with his hands out and down trying to correct his balance. There should be a bar for being published in these magazines, and if there is it needs to be raised. Otherwise it becomes a laughing stock.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Actually, I'm well aware of the difference and why. If you remember we had this discussion a while ago agreed to disagree.

i don't remember specifically, but i know you and i have discussed things before. but if it's a question of you simply disagreeing, then it would have been nice if you'd acknowledged the other side rather than holding it up as a perceived mistake spotted by a keen eye. it's not a mistake. it's a deliberate difference noticeable by any eye because it's not being concealed.


Some people will teach you how to use the butt end of a pistol to beat someone over the head. Is that wrong? I guess not.

I'd rather invest in pulling the trigger. Someone has to get close to use the butt for trapping, or God forbid hitting. By that point, someone's wrist should me smashed.

But I must admit some ignorance in this department because I am not comfotable fighting with weaponry -- yet. That's just being honest. Hand to hand I'll fight anyone. When it comes to weapons I'm all ears.

if that's so, please trust me that the wrist smashing thing isn't sure fire and that there is a time and place for the punyo (and for pistol whipping too, i suppose).

i fought full-contact stick for several years, including a match with a largo mano fighter who's tactic was to stay at long range and beat my hands stupid. did it work? well, i won. my hands were killing me, but i won. would that have been different in real life? well, i think we've all played out that 'real life' argument enough times to know that it's impossible to say for sure. but based on the most empirical research i could stand to perform, the wrist smash wasn't sure fire.


The major point was, in most cases these photos never account for the other guy. He freezes while the "master" does several -- allmost always unrealistic -- moves.

and it's a sound point. sound enough that it need not be strengthened by false or inaccurate examples. if you knew his rationale for doing that, it only weakens your argument not to say as much. or to use that as an example of bad form knowing full well that it's an example of differing form.


stuart b.

[Ray Pina]

"In this magazine alone, sometime son the Burt's offerings or soemthing, many times the photo is displaying a technique where Burt is hitting someone witha stick, but the trained eye can see that his attacker, if really attacking, could just as well reach him. "

That was my main point. The hand position was subsequent.

But I have to ask, how were you able to withstand multiple blows to your hand? Were you wearing protective gloves? La cross gloves? Because that would make some sense to me. Who could withstand ONE full power swing from a weapon? And following that logic, who could get so close then to use that last inch instead of the leading 20 inches?

Very dangerous fighting. Not my cup of tea. Too risky. I like to be in a position where I can hit without being hit. Won't say its wrong though.

Martial arts is not a black and white thing.

Some people pull their punches back. They do it consciously. Train it. I view it as a wasted movement. A withdraw from captured territory. I view any wasted move as the move that get's you killed. An unnecessary pawn move ... checkmate.

So it's not wrong to pull back the punch. Just that I think (my opinion) that there is a better way, and that's what I am always looking for.

[apoweyn]

That was my main point. The hand position was subsequent.

and i agreed with your main point. sorry if i didn't make that clear. my fault.


But I have to ask, how were you able to withstand multiple blows to your hand? Were you wearing protective gloves? La cross gloves? Because that would make some sense to me. Who could withstand ONE full power swing from a weapon?

yeah, exactly. we wore lacross gloves. now, without the gloves, if i just gave you a free shot on my wrist, you're d*mn right i'd drop my weapon. but anything short of that clean shot and i'm not guaranteeing anything. 'who could withstand one full power swing from a weapon?' not me. but then, if i'm moving the target (i.e., my wrist), the odds of you landing that full-power swing are relatively slim.


And following that logic, who could get so close then to use that last inch instead of the leading 20 inches?

actually, if you're comfortable and skilled there, that last inch is the safest place to be. just like boxing. if i'm a shorter fighter, am i better off being right at the perfect range for lennox lewis' jab cross combination? or am i better off being in tight, where he's got to struggle to bring his longer limbs to bear on me? very often, the answer is the latter. same with stickfighting. if the largo mano fighter is perfectly comfortable backstepping and taking long-range swings at my hands, do i want to stay there? no. i want to take it where he's less comfortable. but only if i have the skills to make that closer range work to my benefit. and part of that process is a familiarity with punyo.

at long range, footwork and speed will get you a long way. but if i get the impression that my opponent has those two things in spades, then i might opt to change the scenario and close range. at that point, sensitivity and control become the order of the day. close-range striking becomes a viable option, especially if the opponent isn't used to it. and to do either effectively, you need the punyo.


Very dangerous fighting. Not my cup of tea. Too risky. I like to be in a position where I can hit without being hit. Won't say its wrong though.

well, fighting tends to be a little dangerous. but how are you able to hit without being hit at long range? even with a significant height difference, it only takes some decent footwork and angling to get to you at long range. there's no such as a position from which you can hit without being hit. not in the overall picture of the combat. perhaps in a freeze-frame instant.


Martial arts is not a black and white thing.

agreed.



Some people pull their punches back. They do it consciously. Train it. I view it as a wasted movement. A withdraw from captured territory. I view any wasted move as the move that get's you killed. An unnecessary pawn move ... checkmate.

well, that's a big part of the tactics of punyo. don't flit around at long range doing hit and run. and don't always stay where he can hit you as readily as you hit him. create your opening, close in, control, and finish it. capture territory. don't withdraw.

basically, there's an optimal range for a weapon. if you're both using that same sort of weapon, then that optimal range is going to be the same for both of you. so if you're going to avoid taking as good as you give, you'd better be prepared to make the best of another range. if you fade away from optimal range, you're too far away and you've created a null solution. if you close in past that optimal range, you need to be good at close-range stickwork. hence the punyo.


stuart b.

[GeneChing]

I've gotten a few complaints about the tone of this thread. Please tone it down and be civil to each other. No more obscenity. No more potential libelous claims. I don't want to have to start deleting and banning people just because some one sends a lawyer after me.

Thank you all for your cooperation.

[Ray Pina]

Apoweyn, always enjoyable conversing with you becuase it leads to details.:)

My reply will show my understanding regarding the main points: how can one hit while not being hit and how to get in on a lewis jab.

I would argue, that for all purposes, you can't. Well, Mike Tyson couldn't. He has reach. He's bigger. If he's a good fighter he'll keep you out. You may try to come in, but he's a good fighter -- and he'll keep you out. Watch the Tyson/Lewis fight.

So then what?

Well, I would offer not to try to fight "capital to capital". Do not try to rush the jab so you can hit his head, it is very likely to work against you. I do not want to take his blow.

How about instead, offering the head for bait. And when he strikes, simply move the head back a bit and strike his strike. Ifyou are reaching for my head and it it now 6-icnhes out of range (could be more, lean forward, lean back, see how much space) I am safe, you can't hit me. But I know where you were going and I can reach out and hit your attack.

The better one is with this, the less they move their head. In fact, no need to move the head. Back hand feels your strike, lead hand attacks your bicep. You can't hit me (reach me) but I can hit you. No one believes it -- and I am glad.

Same works with the stick. When you swing, I bet you lead with your hand, your stick following behind like this \ .

Most do. Check those photos. The hand is the target and most lead with it.

There is also some high-tech stuff regarding traingle theory (two sides of a triagle are longer then the remaining side) that my master teaches. But again, my focus at this time is on hand-to-hand. So far though, the principles seam the same.

Have a great day.:)

[Buby]

So you're into attacking them limbs..huh!LOL

It's kinda funny cause we do the same thing in YKM. One of my favorite moves works like what you described. Opponent (left lead) throws a jab, I(left lead) smash his inner forearm with a soy quil and use the rebound energy to bin choy he's face/head.

Sorry for the rushed description, but I'm pretty sure you know where I'm coming from.

Take care,
Buby

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Apoweyn, always enjoyable conversing with you becuase it leads to details.:)

likewise, my friend. we're way off topic now, but given the hostility that resulted from the actual topic, perhaps that's actually for the best. at least something can come of this.


My reply will show my understanding regarding the main points: how can one hit while not being hit and how to get in on a lewis jab.

I would argue, that for all purposes, you can't. Well, Mike Tyson couldn't. He has reach. He's bigger. If he's a good fighter he'll keep you out. You may try to come in, but he's a good fighter -- and he'll keep you out. Watch the Tyson/Lewis fight.

actually, i did watch the tyson/lewis fight. and you're right. tyson didn't get in. partially that's because lewis is very good. and partially that's because tyson is done.

here's the thing though: what you suggest about baiting them into jabbing and then attacking the limb is a very viable strategy. and a time-honoured one in both CMA and FMA. i won't debate that it doesn't work. but it's not the only tactic. in the boxing example, if lewis was good enough to keep tyson outside with his jabs, then he has the jabbing skill to make that baiting game an extremely dangerous one for the baiter. i can present my head (knee, hand, etc.) as a target to draw him in, but if he's actually fast and skillful enough to hit it or something else anyway, then it doesn't really profit me much.


So then what?

good question. :)

another viable tactic is to close distance. from personal experience, it worked on the largo mano guy (though i wish i'd been more skillful at the time and done so more quickly). and when i spar the 6'5" 230-lb. boxer at the gym, the safest place in the world for me to be is right up against him.


Well, I would offer not to try to fight "capital to capital". Do not try to rush the jab so you can hit his head, it is very likely to work against you. I do not want to take his blow.

well, if you try to rush the same line that the jab is travelling, then yeah, you're going to end up taking the dirt nap. but if you close smart, then that's not the same result. in FMA, we do this using our own triangle footwork. (actually, having read your paragraph below, i'm interested in seeing your triangle footwork to see how they compare. i wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that the filipino footwork was gathered from chinese sources.)

another tactic would be to combine yours and my approaches. bait the jab then follow it back in to close range to tie up.


Same works with the stick. When you swing, I bet you lead with your hand, your stick following behind like this \ .

very astute observation. yeah, the hand leads. well, more accurately, the hand leads in slashing motions. in flicking (witik) or thrusting motions, the weapon leads. that's my the grandmaster of my primary style (doce pares) advocates flicking motions. wraps around defenses and doesn't offer the give away you pointed out.

that said, having you point it out to me like that has made the idea seem much more pertinent. and for that, i thank you.


Most do. Check those photos. The hand is the target and most lead with it.

i think we agree on a lot of this. i still maintain that getting closer and controlling the limbs is a very valid tactic, mind you. but that depends largely on the individual's choices. what they're comfortable with, where their strengths lie, etc.


Have a great day. :)

you too, evolutionfist.


stuart b.

[Fen]

Like all martial artists that have been studying for a long time, we run across fakes and wanna be's all the time. It doesn't help that there are people that put it on video (not complaining, i wouldn't remember half my material without them!!). But, because of it, we do get people that think they know a lot, that actually don't know much at all.

I've even had my own occurance reguarding the video thing. My ex senior student decided to buy Sifu Lams 10 Northern videos and then came into class showing me Shaolin 7, acting like he knew it all. He did this becuase he wanted to get his rank faster. He couldn't get enough knowledge fast enough. But, he still didn't get much of the point of the form.

Like Gene said one time, he can see a fake that learns from videos. Well, theres others out there that can also see them, including myself. But, its still not a reason for me to go up to them and say "you're a fake".

Put yourself in John Do's position....he's from Alaska. He doesn't have a kung fu school to study at, and does a corespondance program for his training. Personally, I think it's awesome to offer like this. There's no need for this person to learn 4 forms and open a school just because he thinks he knows kung fu. He should test, practice, learn all, practice more, spend time with the real teacher when he can afford to see him....THEN open his own school.

When it comes to Parks, I have no idea about if it's real or fake. Mainly because I haven't seen any of his stuff. But if you know the real stuff, why does it threaten you so much? Guys, it's not a big deal. Let people be people. There's always going to be someone out there that you don't agree with, but you can't always go around pointing fingers, etc. Put yourself in the OTHER place. What would you think if everyone was saying it about you?

You guys really need to start being civil, and stop the mud slinging. It's getting old for everyone. The whole point of Martial Arts is to teach humility and humbleness!! Try it!!! :)

Jason

[Ray Pina]

This turned out to be a worth while conversation. And to think, two people and agree and disagree and no hostility. Can you believe it?

Anyway, the traingle footwork I have seen from friends who study Philipino arts seems very similiar, if not exactly like Wing Chun footwork I learned. I mean, it just kind of makes sense: step out and up and then in: \ and then / against an apponant's straight right say. But tight.

I falling in love with Hsing-I thought, which goes more like this: ------>.

Anyway, I agree with a lot of what you said, but would add one point to my tactic of "hitting without being hit". It's all in how you do it, as in anything else. I remove the timing and speed game.

I take a lead right. Right hand down a bit left hand up in a rear guard. I let the attack come. When it hits the rear guard as I pull head from range, I know its there. Bottom hand shoots up and hits.

Now, that's the basic. When you do it fast and tight both hands kind of form a shield in front of oneself. It's striking from a shielded position.

And yes Buby, I know you know what I'm talking about. Of course it propels in further. I like to fight inside. It's my range of choice. But I like to cut the tree down little by little.

Who was it, Bob Marley? "If you are a BIG tree, I'm a small ax ... waiting to cut you down."

Well, thanks for the ideas and information. I'd like to spend more time on weapons but can't right now. My hands aren't to where I would like them to be. Though I broke open my case of Sais and Nunchuks from when I was a kid and had some fun last night.

Why don't Chinese use the chucks. It's a flexible stick. I have some ideas I'm playing with. Maybe I'll ask my master tomorrow.

Peace
Ray

[count]

Originally posted by tao of wushu
Like all martial artists that have been studying for a long time, we run across fakes and wanna be's all the time. It doesn't help that there are people that put it on video (not complaining, i wouldn't remember half my material without them!!). But, because of it, we do get people that think they know a lot, that actually don't know much at all.

I've even had my own occurance reguarding the video thing. My ex senior student decided to buy Sifu Lams 10 Northern videos and then came into class showing me Shaolin 7, acting like he knew it all. He did this becuase he wanted to get his rank faster. He couldn't get enough knowledge fast enough. But, he still didn't get much of the point of the form.

Like Gene said one time, he can see a fake that learns from videos. Well, theres others out there that can also see them, including myself. But, its still not a reason for me to go up to them and say "you're a fake".

Put yourself in John Do's position....he's from Alaska. He doesn't have a kung fu school to study at, and does a corespondance program for his training. Personally, I think it's awesome to offer like this. There's no need for this person to learn 4 forms and open a school just because he thinks he knows kung fu. He should test, practice, learn all, practice more, spend time with the real teacher when he can afford to see him....THEN open his own school.

When it comes to Parks, I have no idea about if it's real or fake. Mainly because I haven't seen any of his stuff. But if you know the real stuff, why does it threaten you so much? Guys, it's not a big deal. Let people be people. There's always going to be someone out there that you don't agree with, but you can't always go around pointing fingers, etc. Put yourself in the OTHER place. What would you think if everyone was saying it about you?

You guys really need to start being civil, and stop the mud slinging. It's getting old for everyone. The whole point of Martial Arts is to teach humility and humbleness!! Try it!!! :)

Jason
You have both raised some excellent points and brought the thread back on topic. I hope I wasn't misunderstood here as I was not judging Park one way or the other, except in questioning his marketing approach to martial arts. Personally I thought the thread was a lot more civil than many I have seen here.

My question for you is what is valuable to put out there if you wanted to market yourself to everyone and not just to your own students? The tapes in question are obviously to show the basics of Parks system, which may or may not be useful to his own students. But presented as the "fundamentals of pa kua chang", the implication is they would be useful to people in general. Maybe you could sell a few more tapes that way, but whether or not they would be useful within another program is questionable. You even mentioned your own student trying to learn from another teachers tapes was not even close to the point. So what would you put on your own tapes that would be worth the price of the tapes to people outside your own system?

As far as your whole point of martial arts teaching humility and humbleness, that's a debate for another time.;)

[Fen]

Count-

I personally wouldn't sell videos EXCEPT to my students. But that's just me. As far as marketing and stuff of Park...that's not for ME personally to decide. It's not important to me that others sell videos to "outsiders". It's their gig, and in the end, they'll either make it, or won't. Just because someone sells a video and says it's "real" or not, doesn't mean anything. Have you personally seen the videos? I have not, so can't make a sound judgement on if what he's doing is Morally Ethical or not. I just feel that everyone's headhunting needs to be tamed!

And as for humility and humbleness being taught in MA......what do you learn??

Jason

[count]

Originally posted by tao of wushu
Count-

I personally wouldn't sell videos EXCEPT to my students. But that's just me. As far as marketing and stuff of Park...that's not for ME personally to decide. It's not important to me that others sell videos to "outsiders". It's their gig, and in the end, they'll either make it, or won't.
That may be true, but as a consumer you certainly have the right to question or criticize anything. Liable is something for a court to decide, but I don't think anyone in this thread was not being truthful based on their own experience. As far as promoting yourself as a teacher, why wouldn't sell video's except to your own students? BTW, when will your website be back up?


Just because someone sells a video and says it's "real" or not, doesn't mean anything. Have you personally seen the videos? I have not, so can't make a sound judgement on if what he's doing is Morally Ethical or not. I just feel that everyone's headhunting needs to be tamed!
First of all, I stated in my first post in this thread, I have seen the video's. However, throughout the entire thread, my questions have been about marketing. Not necessarily about truthfulness in advertising, but the usefulness of the tapes themselves. And to be totally truthful, I didn't even purchase the video. I only borrowed them.:D


And as for humility and humbleness being taught in MA......what do you learn??
Well, I have always been taught that martial arts is for learning about fighting. As to what you get from that is up to the individuals perceptions and goals. I'm not suggesting "humility and humbleness" is a bad thing. Just that it might not be the main point and certainly a topic for a different debate.;)

[Fen]

Count-
I'm not arguing the fact that he is or isn't a fake. I could honestly care less. It doesn't effect me or my school at all!! That's why I don't care! So, why do you care? Does he affect you in any way? Not trying to argue, just honestly curious!

My website will be back up soon. We're currently trying to get it all done so i can just throw the whole thing up and be done with it!

Jason

[count]

Originally posted by tao of wushu
Count-
I'm not arguing the fact that he is or isn't a fake. I could honestly care less. It doesn't effect me or my school at all!! That's why I don't care! So, why do you care? Does he affect you in any way? Not trying to argue, just honestly curious!
Now see, words in a forum sometimes are misunderstood. I'm not arguing that fact either. Nowhere have I stated that I care about anyone. Let's be clear. My interest is purly from a marketing standpoint. And from martial arts standpoint. Read what I have been asking all along. I question the expenditure involved with producing video's balanced with returns in terms of profits and results. I have been questioning the gains the students are making and the value to the teacher. I am quite simply asking if I were to make video's and market them myself, what would be of real value and how could I use them in combination with hands on instuction from a qualified teacher. I entered this topic in the first place to discuss, "In Park's Defense", if the tapes he markets work for some, many or all who purchase them. If my words are misunderstood it is either because of my communication skills or the readers comprehension skills. I suggest that might be true of other people here as well. I suggest before people start crying about this thread to the moderator of the forum, they might take a moment and objectivly read some of the facts that were brought out here. It's only words and opinions on an internet forum.


My website will be back up soon. We're currently trying to get it all done so i can just throw the whole thing up and be done with it!

Jason I am an internet developer, which is why I am frequently online here. Is there anything I could help with for your website? A discussion forum maybe?:D

[Fen]

OHHHHHHHH, now I understand!!! Sorry, I guess I didn't get the whole gist of your question! Hmm, personally, if I was to make a video, it would be for our students just for their OWN "notebook". Many students that I have come across haven't remembered their sets because they don't practice every single one of them every day! I'll only go back over a form so many times! I would sell it in my school so that they could buy it and have it ON hand to go back over when they want/need to! When it comes to the imput/output of the money part of the video, it's not very worthwhile unless you sell tons of them! I was going to do DVD's, since most my students have DVD players! Of course, this wouldn't be for "home studying" only, it would also go along with the classes, and they'd learn the set even before they got the vid!

As for help on my website, I thank you VERY much. For right now though, I think we have most of it covered! And, we do have a discussion forum! You are in fact on it!! www.fu-ragz.com

That's Wens discussion forum, but we have our own forum down at the bottom under school forums! It's good for now....most of the students aren't even on there yet, but soon probably will be!
Thank you though!

Jason

[count]

Originally posted by tao of wushu
OHHHHHHHH, now I understand!!! Sorry, I guess I didn't get the whole gist of your question! Hmm, personally, if I was to make a video, it would be for our students just for their OWN "notebook". Many students that I have come across haven't remembered their sets because they don't practice every single one of them every day! I'll only go back over a form so many times! I would sell it in my school so that they could buy it and have it ON hand to go back over when they want/need to! When it comes to the imput/output of the money part of the video, it's not very worthwhile unless you sell tons of them! I was going to do DVD's, since most my students have DVD players! Of course, this wouldn't be for "home studying" only, it would also go along with the classes, and they'd learn the set even before they got the vid!

As for help on my website, I thank you VERY much. For right now though, I think we have most of it covered! And, we do have a discussion forum! You are in fact on it!! www.fu-ragz.com

That's Wens discussion forum, but we have our own forum down at the bottom under school forums! It's good for now....most of the students aren't even on there yet, but soon probably will be!
Thank you though!

Jason

Heh Heh, I actually new all that. :p The point I am getting to is the cost of producing a video is prohibative unless you are marketing something that would be universally useful. I understand where you are coming from though. Before I met my teacher I too spent 8 years with a northern shaolin teacher. I learned over 40 forms including weapons of which I can remember maybe 10 today. Fortunately my teacher than encouraged me to video tape myself doing them. I also have tape of him and his teacher doing them. So every now and then I look at them. A useful tool at best but and invaluable to say the least but I doubt anybody would pay money for them. Now I'm considering producing some tapes to go along with seminars. I'm wondering what would be the most important thing to put on them. Anyone else have any suggestions?

[wushu chik]

Hmmm,
If you put together tapes to go along with seminars, it would be best to put the information that you are doing the seminar on. Maybe also go into it a bit more in detail, add some history, vid clips, etc. Also, you might wanna add a teaser about something that you're interested in doing a seminar on later.......that way, people will be interested, and will be willing to come back for more!!! But, leave one of two items out of the tape, so you can market that for your seminar, and won't just buy the video tape itself!!

Just a few suggestions!

~Wen~

[apoweyn]

evolutionfist,

excellent. the specific move you describe is what we'd call 'gunting' in FMA. 'scissors.' probably also adopted from chinese methods.

and since i'm on a taiji forum, thought i'd mention that i'd also noticed a lot of similarities between filipino largo mano (long hand) methods and the longsword forms in taiji. a lot of what you described. fading away and hitting the hand.


stuart b.

[CD Lee]

So, BT said he was going last week. Did he ever go? What happened?

[count]

Originally posted by wushu chik
Hmmm,
If you put together tapes to go along with seminars, it would be best to put the information that you are doing the seminar on. Maybe also go into it a bit more in detail, add some history, vid clips, etc. Also, you might wanna add a teaser about something that you're interested in doing a seminar on later.......that way, people will be interested, and will be willing to come back for more!!! But, leave one of two items out of the tape, so you can market that for your seminar, and won't just buy the video tape itself!!

Just a few suggestions!

~Wen~

Thanks ~Wen~,
Good suggestions. I'm thinking mostly applications on a tape. Most people go to a workshop want to learn a form and don't want to take a beating so they can't finish the workshop. Applications are valuable on a tape with or without a form. I'm thinking applications is the way to go.;)

Anyone else have any good suggestions?

[black and blue]

Nice discussion on tri footwork. Wing Chun has a similar method, found in the dummy form.

Moving from a bong chor sau (bong sau to the inside of an opponent's bridge - we call this Wrong Bong :) ), and moving bong to tan sau with a palm strike to the ribs.

This hand method is accompanied with footwork as per your description. A kinda out-and-then-in motion in one fluid move.

With regards moving the head out of range against the jab, we tend to do this also with a subtle shift in footwork while raising an arm to bridge (make contact) with the jab. As soon as the jab retracts, we follow. (Receive what come, "escort what leaves", on loss of contact... strike)

Recently we've been working on a series of sensitivity drills that deal with this: adjusting to avoid an attack, bridging, following the retracting hand (which more often than not opens up an attacking angle).

The drills involve using a flexible tan, bong or pak sau, and issuing with an appropriate hand attack.

[Ray Pina]

Yes, I enjoyed Wing Chun greatly. I couldn't imagine understanding what my master is teaching me if I had to learn sticking at this point. That was one huge piece of the puzzle missing from Issin-Ryu. Scary to think I used to fight without it. I guess I was relying on good timing, get in and out quick, or get in and just keep the pressure on. But not much control that way.

For the record though, I was merely discussing things I have learned in the past. My master's method has no set footwork. The foot just supports the body.

When I occasionally play without outsiders, they see something and say it is similiar to what they have. But usually they are bigger then me, so if we are doing the same thing and they have the height/weight advanatage, why does it work for me and not them?

In those instances I quote my master: "I have money, Bill Gates has money, don't say it's the same thing."

He usually drives points home with things like that.

Anyway, I love these martial arts. :)

[gazza99]

This went and turned into a decent thread :)) Jeez, get back on topic guys-Does Park suck, or not suck, that is the question...:))

Gary

[wushu chik]

Um, REALLY lets NOT start this again. Leave it how it's going!! All nice and civil. Gary, go ride your motorcycle and stop startin crap!! :D

~Wen~