Taiji abs?

[Chang Style Novice]

While working a qigong to develop internal strength this weekend, I talked a bit to my shifu about belly power. We reported to me that Chen Ching Zou (sp?) has used the Taiji Iron Ball technique to develop his abdominal power to the point that he can do a number of amazing things:

1 If he has stomach contact with an opponent, he can deliver a not-inconsiderable strike with his dantien. For example, about as hard as a slap to the face that reddens the cheek.

2 With this kind of belly fajing, he can lie on his back and toss small stones six feet into the air.

3 His abs don't resemble a six pack, but rather a taiji (yin-yang) symbol, which he can rotate in either direction!

Has anybody else seen or experienced this kind of thing? It seems incredibly cool to me, and I'd like to develop my abilities in this direction. Other excercises besides Taiji Iron Ball for cultivating this variety of muscle and jing would be appreciated.

[ewallace]

Ahh but the true test of skill would be to get a beer that is resting on his belly up to his mouth while laying down.

[The Willow Sword]

My old teacher teacher Eric had a Buddah belly,,but could still move like lightning and deliver much punishment to my slimer physique. It is said that when you are able to control your chi in tan tien you will increase in size down there, that and alot of hostess cupcakes or zingers will do that as well. Most of these buddahs were rather large. was it because they were able to control chi and affect the way thier metabolism operated? or did they just eat too many pan fried dumplings?

MRTWS

[kungfu cowboy]

Number three is a bit suspect, as that would involve major modification to the human anatomy, although I have heard that avid TransAm aficionados can produce either the burning firebird symbol on their torsos at will and/or can suddenly bear an uncanny resemblance to Burt Reynolds.

[Chang Style Novice]

I agree that #3 sounds pretty weird, Cowboy, but I've seen (on TV) yoga masters do pretty amazing things with their gutmuscles, stuff I wouldn't have believed if I hadn't seen it like moving a vertical 'wave' from left to right and then back the other direction. It seems to me that as long as you aren't taking the taiji symbol idea too literally, it might be possible for your four upper abs to create a similar effect.

I'll investigate Willow's fruit-pie idea as well.:D

[chingei]

Originally posted by The Willow Sword
My old teacher teacher Eric had a Buddah belly,,Most of these buddahs were rather large.

MRTWS


~groan~:rolleyes:

[Repulsive Monkey]

I have studied with a Teacher who has a Qi Belly and he accidentally broke two of his senior students fingers as he tried to jab him with a finger knife strike to the abdomen once. He certainly wasn't the size of Yang Cheng-fu but its very safe to sat he was somewhat portly. He used to lie on his back and shoot golf balls up at the ceiling.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Close to us, there's Taiwan Wang Shu Jin who is famous for his enormous and impervious belly...many guys broke their wrists trying to punch him, it's a favorite trick of his to let people punch him as hard as they can, and they generally don't do it twice...
I got a vid of him doing that to several peeps...their look his priceless LOL

Anyway, for the belly stuff,I can do it.
I seen yogis move them in a vertical wave from left to right too one day...and I promised myself I could achieve that, don't ask me why...so I trained every morning and one day boooommm I pulled it off...now I can contract independantly my left side abs and my right side abs...I can't do the horizontal wave up and down though, and I believe that similarly the yin yang thingie could be achieved by managing to contract your abs in quadrant upper left, then upper right, then lower right, then lower left, which make it appear like it's a rotating wave...
Controlling your abs like this makes you able to perform feats like sucking air in and out at will with your anus...concerto on the big white phone I tell ya' LOL

[Chang Style Novice]

R.Monkey:

Do you know any specific methods he used to gain that ability?

[Ford Prefect]

Chang,

The abs are all just a single strip of muscle. The weird stomach stuff you can see Yoga people do are through breathing techniques in which the cause a sort of vaccuum effect. In essense it is possible, but it's not stomach muscles; it's more breathe control than anything else.

[apoweyn]

on a slightly tangential note, with the emphasis on pressure point striking (or at least precise targetting), is there much call for an impervious belly? it seems like one of the less likely targets anyway. i don't generally aim there. the ribs, certainly. but the actually belly? particularly on a heavy-set fellow.

does this exercise offer other benefits? am i short changing the value of the impervious gut?


stuart b.

[Ford Prefect]

Ap,

You've obviously never had to stop a spear point with nothing ut your gut before. You're young. You will learn.

[apoweyn]

ford,

whatever. the real skill is to stop the spear with your spine once it's already pierced your abdomen and skewered your internals. i was practicing that the other night. in another 9 to 12 months, i can try again.

:)

[Chang Style Novice]

Ford -
"In essense it is possible, but it's not stomach muscles; it's more breathe control than anything else."

Ain't the diaphragm a muscle? ;) I figure this stuff involves a lot of factors. That breathing in a specific fashion is involved is no surprise. That's what qigong is all about. The taiji symbol thing is pretty comic-booky, I'll grant you, but I still think it's cool - I'll steal it for "Kungfu Exodus" I think.

Ap -

I'm not looking for an 'iron shirt' effect here, I'm hoping for some fajing. I dunno what other sorts of benefits might result. Some toughening of the gut has got to be part of nearly any muscle building, but I'll leave spear tips to those more...how can I say this politely?...ambitious than I am. :eek:

[apoweyn]

chang style novice,

i gotcha. and fa jing is... an expression of relaxed power? is that an accurate description?


stuart b.

[Chang Style Novice]

"and fa jing is... an expression of relaxed power? is that an accurate description? "

I'm still getting the hang of it, but that definitely seems to be one part of it. Literally it's something like "explosive energy" and mostly seems to be concerned with getting a lot of power without requiring a lot of space. The example I work on the most is a 'brush knee and twist' application where you touch the target with fingertips then simultaneously drop weight forward to your front foot, rotate the waist, push off from the back foot, throw forward your shoulder, and straighten your elbow. your palm only moves a few inches but has a lot of 'Oomph' behind it. Abdominal power like the stuff I want to cultivate gives a lot of power in an even shorter range that can be added in with the other motions I described above.

[The Willow Sword]

what was wrong, in your opinion, about what i posted?

MRTWS

[apoweyn]

chang style novice,

thanks for the explanation.
something related to (precursor to) the 1- and 3-inch punch, yeah? what my instructor referred to as 'compression.'


stuart b.

[Leto]

Chang Style Novice...

We practiced fa jing application in my class with board breaking...the standard 1 inch pine boards. With someone holding the board up in front, start by touching the board; break without pulling back (as little as possible), and without hitting the person holding the board. It was a good way to test without hurting anybody.

As for the chi belly...my first sensei had powerful chi. I didn't know about that sort of thing at the time, but I recognize now what it was. He was a stout man, built powerfully...his stomach was round, but it was solid as a rock. I remember during drills, hitting him and expecting to feel some 'give', but finding it was like makiwara :) And when he would hit back, even when he didn't make contact, or I blocked, I remember feeling what I attribute now to 'fa jing'...that explosive power which requires minimal contact, but shakes your whole body from the inside out. Later in my training there, he began teaching the concepts of ki, and encouraged more in depth study of the vital points, and practicing serious meditation.

[chingei]

Originally posted by The Willow Sword
My old teacher teacher Eric had a Buddah belly,,Most of these buddahs were rather large.

MRTWS

which "buddahs" would that be?

[Ford Prefect]

Chang,

The diaphram isn't really involved in it. I can't remember the exact name of the main muscles used, but they can only be strengthened by doing Yogic (is that a word) vaccuum breathing. Mostly though, it's about breathe in the lungs and not muscles. Kind of like when you suck all the air out of a ballooon and it wrinkles up...

[The Willow Sword]

ba to was considered a buddah and he was a big dude,,,ta mo was considered a buddah(enlightened one) and he was a big guy as well. there is not just one buddah,,there are many.

MRTWS

[Chang Style Novice]

Ford:

Hmmm...I thought that the diaphragm was the main 'engine' in typical breathing. I remember a middle school science demonstration where we cut the bottom off a plastic soda bottle, put a balloon with a straw through the neck, stopped it up, and then stretched a rubber membrane over the bottom, and made the inside balloon (a lung) 'breathe' by stretching the membrane along the bottom so the lung inflated to keep air pressure equal. Anyway, I know other muscles do some work, but isn't it generally pretty minor? I know my anatomy for artists, so it mostly concentrates on visible features. Any doctors or what have you out there who can help out on this?

Willow:

I think you are being gently teased for spelling "Buddha" as "Buddah."

[red5angel]

Chang Style - I can explain the #3 point, I have started training with a few of Chens taichi ball excersises to help develop that power in the dantien.
The excersises generally recquire you explosively expand and contract your stomach muscles and so while they gain a softness when relaxed, instead of developing each "ripple" in those sheets of muscle, it developes each side consistantly. If you are thin enough to see the muscle then you can see that they form a shape that could be construed as yin and yang. I think it looks more like a bifurcated egg personally.
The other thing I have noticed, is that the people who do these excersises, seem to have a soft looking belly similar to someone who would be called barrel chested......Its deceptive as it looks like they have never done a pushup in their life but its as hard as rock when it needs to be!
I have heard two different stories, one coincides with your #2. This was told to me by someone who has seen it in action. Chen can put a coin in the middle of his stomach and then flip it in any direction he desires.
The other story is that he can reputedly do some serious damage to someone if they were to punch or kick him in the stomach.

[ewallace]

And generally these practices are not recommended for those that are not yet married and/or still seek to have sex with really hot women.

[red5angel]

LOL!@Ewallace, actually I have been told that practicing these things helps in a few of those categories as well ;)

[ewallace]

Yeah but who told you, some friends or some really hot chicks?

[Chang Style Novice]

I have heard some scary stories from my shifu about improperly practiced qigong (not the taiji iron ball, though.) Things about the package withdrawing into the pelvis for long periods of time and stuff.

YIKES!:eek: :confused:

[ewallace]

I wish my boys would do that sometimes when it's really humid outside and there is bad traffic.

[red5angel]

ROFLMAO! True ewallace, these were definitely not hot chicks telling me this! :)

[Lisa]

Crimson Phoenix: "now I can contract independantly my left side abs and my right side abs...I can't do the horizontal wave up and down though, and I believe that similarly the yin yang thingie could be achieved by managing to contract your abs in quadrant upper left, then upper right, then lower right, then lower left, which make it appear like it's a rotating wave..."

I can do the horizontal wave up and down. I tried the left to right one... it didn't work too well.


Ford Prefect: "The weird stomach stuff you can see Yoga people do are through breathing techniques in which the cause a sort of vaccuum effect. In essense it is possible, but it's not stomach muscles; it's more breathe control than anything else."

When I do the the horizontal wave with my stomach, it has nothing to do with breathing. I can still do it while holding my breath. As for the left to right wave, I have no idea how it works.

Lisa

[Ford Prefect]

Chang,

Yes, in breathing the diaphram is the muscle used. This isn't "breathing" per se. It's the exhalation of all the air from the lungs which can then bring about a sort of vaccuum effect that with time you will be able to manipulate to do different things with your muscles. The only muscle that play a role in this are the muscle generally used to keep your guts in the right place on the inside of the rib cage by the abdominal wall. I've seen people create such a large vaccuum effect that you can almost see their spine from the front... literally. They do this to massage the internal organs much the way tai chi does. Take yoga for a while. Not only will you be able to learn about this through actual experience rather than reading and trying to imagine how to do it, but it will make you healthier as well.

[Ford Prefect]

Lisa,

If you read my above post, you are meant to do while holding your breath or in the midst of exhaling.

[Chang Style Novice]

"Take yoga for a while. Not only will you be able to learn about this through actual experience rather than reading and trying to imagine how to do it, but it will make you healthier as well."

I had a hunch this thread would end up here sooner or later. It's on my list, make no mistake. So is a LOT of stuff.

[chingei]

Originally posted by The Willow Sword
there is not just one buddah,,there are many.

MRTWS


"Most" of the Buddhas are fat?

[scotty1]

Dam. Is it possible to practice Taiji effectively without getting a belly. I would like to take up Taiji in China but I like my kickboxer's sixer. :(

Just call me shallow. My girlfriend only likes it when she can play it like a xylophone.

[chingei]

Originally posted by scotty1
Dam. Is it possible to practice Taiji effectively without getting a belly. I would like to take up Taiji in China but I like my kickboxer's sixer. :(

Just call me shallow. My girlfriend only likes it when she can play it like a xylophone.

tell her there are better things to play with than your abs...;)

[scotty1]

Playing my abs like a xylophone is like a jingle before the overture.

Chingei, you been to China? I seem to remember you have. Get yourself looking at my thread. :)

[red5angel]

Scotty1 - I would like to point out that I said all the top guys that I have met. They dont look like they are pregnant or anything, they just look a tad soggy around the middle.......

[Chang Style Novice]

TEST

edit

SUCCESS!

[chingei]

Originally posted by scotty1
Playing my abs like a xylophone is like a jingle before the overture.

Chingei, you been to China? I seem to remember you have. Get yourself looking at my thread. :)


where?

[scotty1]

On the forum.

And Red5Angel, I would like to train Taiji, but I don't want to look soggy round the middle.

Do I have to give up Taiji or a flat stomach?

Buggerations.

[Liokault]

Tai Chi really changes your body shape.

Almost everyone who trains in nei kung in my class gets a big gut!! it tends to go down after a while but its very odd.

[bob10]

Thats' true - and I've noticed since I stopped doing it I've slimmed down a fair bit too!

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
Chang,

The abs are all just a single strip of muscle. The weird stomach stuff you can see Yoga people do are through breathing techniques in which the cause a sort of vaccuum effect. In essense it is possible, but it's not stomach muscles; it's more breathe control than anything else.

Beat me to it, Ford :)

IronFist

[Nexus]

Originally posted by scotty1
On the forum.

And Red5Angel, I would like to train Taiji, but I don't want to look soggy round the middle.

Do I have to give up Taiji or a flat stomach?

Buggerations.

Yet you would have such power in your stomach that you could heave your girlfriend to the ceiling with an exhale. (HA!)

[scotty1]

I'm so shallow.:(

[Crimson Phoenix]

Lisa,
Actually, to achieve it trained every morning, clinging to my sink while cleaning up LOL. I noticed that it works best when you flex your chest a little...
The first step was to be able to stick out the center part while the sides were kind of collapsing...then learning how to pump each side independently...then practicing the wave...as Ford said, I have to hold my breath while doing it...I can't seem to be able to do it while breathing normally...and my lungs have to be quite empty, because if I take a full breath in, I can't really do it...so maybe it is indeed independent from the abs themselves. I never really wondered, it gave me the impression that it was due to the abs because of the shape, but now I realize it might just be that the abs espouse the shape and move along instead of being the cause...I don't know...
But you must be pretty sexy when you belly dance
;)