Punching to full extension

[UltimateFighter]

I would just like some input into the different punching methods used in various Wing Chun schools. The way I have been taught is to punch to full extension and keep the hand totally relaxed, not even tensing upon impact. Do other wing chun styles punch to full extension or is there a bend in the arm?

[Wilson]

We punch to full extension. Careful though, this is not hyperextension. Just straightening the arm is full extension. If you flex the tricep, you could go ****her, but this is hyperextending the arm and it would be bad. Never heard of keeping the had relaxed even upon impact though. You don't clench the fist tightly on impact? If not, what is the purpose and benefit of doing this. Seems like broken fingers would be problem, but maybe I'm misunderstanding.

I like hitting with the arm fully extended. With proper structure and using your footwork properly, you can transfer a lot of power into the opponent this way.

[TjD]

we punch full extension, even at full power - once you learn how to punch right

once you get it right, the punch flows out the bottom of your arm, out the lower two knuckles and the arm doesnt hyperextend, even at full power. its a matter of just being relaxed enough, and punching with elbow power correctly

i make a fist on impact, and pull my wrist back; both these help accomplish this goal as well

[red5angel]

Punch to 98% extension, not 100% It leaves you too vulnerable and too committed! Try it if you dont believe me, that 2% can make a big difference!
TJD, what do you mean by pull your wrist back?

[Wilson]

Ha...I guess the word is further, not f-a-r-ther in my first post.

One thing that we train that I think helps a lot is the breathing on punches. You must exhale hard at impact, when your arm is extended. This not only tightens your whole body for the impact (also protecting you if your are open and getting hit), but right after the hard exhale (almost instantaneously), your whole body will relax in an attempt to breath in again. This relaxation will allow the punch to retract quicker, thus allowing the 2nd punch to be thrown. If you focus on the retraction, the projection arm will increase dramatically.

Just feel the relaxation by exhaling hard thru the nose. As your diaphram relaxes when you are done pushing the breath out, you will feel the relaxation. Yin/Yang of movement

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


You should not contract/tighten your fist (or any methods) on impact. Not only does this stunt your power but it slows you down for you next action. If your bones are aligned properly it is not needed. Breathing in WC is not focused as I am taught. If you focus your breath to contract your whole body on impact then that will slow you down. Breath deep and relaxed at all time so you Wing Chun can be soft and continuous.


Just my opinion!


Regards,

[jonp]

i punch to straight arm

loose hand - no tension - but fist like shape (on impact or whenever)
impact area is bottom three fingers

arm is loose and whip/chain like
wrist is 'snapped' up on impact (similar to TjD i reckon)
and upper arm rotates inwards so the elbow ends up facing sideways - drilling motion i guess
-i think this protects my elbow from hyperextending

as TjD the elbow drives the punch
shoulder stays back

[Wilson]

Could you tell me more about the slow relaxed breathing. I came from boxing and muay thai so it has been trained into me to exhale with an offensive technique. Even now, my wing chun instructor says to do this. I do think with the focused breath, and subsequent relaxation, you can get speed. By focusing on the retraction (thus, the yin movement), the hit (or yang movement in this case) becomes faster.

I'm always interested in a different view though. How do you practice relaxed breathing? Is it possible that while you're not focusing on breathing you could hit while inhaling? Would this be an issue?

I have a lot of questions but I don't want it to seem like I'm coming down on the way you do it. If you could explain, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Wilson,


Nothing special about the breathing. Its just relaxed and natural. Kind of deep so you dont create a floating effect. The skills of Wing Chun are too quick to concentrate your breath with each movement or punch. If you punch three times you cannot continue to release your breath/tense your body on each one without effecting your relaxed state. Its really not an issue if you hit while your are breathing in or out. Its all about the alignment and body usage. Jonp seems to have a similar relaxed punch except for the snapping of the wrist at the end which is something we do not do.

Let me know if you have any other questions!


See ya,

[fa_jing]

I try to be breathing out as I punch - could be multiple punches for one breathe.

[UltimateFighter]

Keeping the fist relaxed is necessary to throw fast continuous chain punches. Just try throwing chain punches with a relax-tense-relax method - it is not possible. Also, keeping the hand in a relaxed closed fist means that the punch has a 'whiplash' effect upon impact, causing damage to 'penetrate'. This is not hocus pocus, it is scientific methodology.

[Ish]

when doing chain punching i relax my breathing and just concentrate on the punch so it doesnt matter if im breathing in or out when i punch.
If im just doing one punch i'd try to breath out as i do it.

[teazer]

I figure if your arm needs to be at full extension, you're not standing close enough. Certainly practice a bit that way a bit to avoid retaining tension, but after that....

[old jong]

To have a powerful punch,you have to make you arm's joint in a straight line. Start by concentrating on a single punch going slowly and relaxed at first and focussing on good technique.You will see and feel your punching power grow faster this way than doing that useless bicycle motion I have seen so many do!
A proper Wing Chun punch should be initiated by pushing the elbow and letting the forearm act as a battering ram (as Martial Joe likes to put it!) or as a piston. Stay relaxed and let the mecanic of the motion do it's job!...;)

[jonp]

teazer - do you not straighten your arm through the opponent?

no matter how close you are i think the arm should straighten
if not your not do as much damage as you could/should

[teazer]

Nope, that's what inch power's all about. If you need to straighten your arm out to hurt someone, there's a problem. Do you focus your palm strikes "through" the MYJ as well??
I agree that most people screw up chain punching, but IMO that has little to do with lack of elbow extension

[TheAardvark]

When training (slt or just hitting the bag) I generally end my punch with my elbow about a fist difference away from my body. I can't really recall what I used to do during chi sao, since I started over and haven't done chi sao in over a year,but I don't think that would change where my punch ended since we would be in pretty close quarters anyway.

[red5angel]

jonp- we always punch for the spine, for more reasons then one, but extending your arm all the way can be dangerous and is definitely too over commital

[TjD]

the pulling back of the wrist i wrote about is just a way to gain extra power into your punch, it also works nicely in preventing you from hyper extending your arm when you punch full power in the air

just some wrist energy from biu jee :)

[jonp]

teazer - dont get much opportunity to spank a dummy sadly :(

dont have to straighten thru an opponent to hurt em no, but id have thought it would inflict more damage - must be hard to maintain the structure with a bent arm - surely it would just bend further unless you had tension there?

red - punchin for the spine sure yea if its an option it is the prefered but i dont see how straightenin your arm an extra 2% is gonna over commit you - its not as though you leave your arm straight

-dangerous as in damage to your joint or risky in a fight?
ive not had any joint probs

disclaimer - just thinkin and questionin out loud, not sayin im right or wrong just interested furtherin my art - the more info the better

[aelward]

I was about to jump on r5a for leaving 2% of the arm extended, but then punched and realize I do about the same thing :P I wouldn't think that it is overcomitting though, since the arm would reach its maximum (not hyper) extension for a split second.

I punch with my arm completely relaxed and tighten very briefly on impact; it then relaxes so that the next punch can go. The way we see it is that if the fist is completely relaxed the whole time, then you will not be adequately linking your power, so you are only hitting with the mass of your arm.

gotta run now, but will expound on this later.

-jk

[teazer]

No doubt it's a big world and there's many ways of doing things.
The further out your arm goes, the more the elbow also moves away from your torso, which depending on the quality of your opponent, may cause you grief.
Thus, for the added reach (and maybe some extra power??), you have a little more risk. It's a bit of a trade really.
IMO the safest would be moving your feet an extra bit closer so you don't have to reach so far & practice more on the wall bag, dummy & pole for the inch power. You can deliver big heap o' power through a bent arm, so long as the elbow is sunk.
Just call me over cautious!!

[Jim Roselando]

Aelward,


Leaving you methods relaxed does not mean you are using mainly arm mass. It means you understand the alignment of the body and do not need the contraction. We hit with the bones aligned and the knuckles are the impact point. If you strike with the aligned body thru the knuckles (not the fingers) you do not need to contract. You cannot contract your bones! (hint hint) Every time you contract you lose speed and penetration IMO.

Give it a shot! You may be surprised!


Hope it works for you!


Regards,

[yuanfen]

good points Jim

[[Censored]]

If locking or tensing up--even briefly--really maximizes power transfer, why do you suppose we don't see this technique in commercial machinery? :)

[TkdWarrior]

well in TKD we learn Whip like punches which r fast and relax as whip. no complete extension as somebody said 98% or 99% then pulling back is also important, but that doesn't mean that we punche and then do pulling to our throats,it means connecting and then pulling ...
as in TAO of JKD bruce said punches goes litle bit after the target.
same goes in my style. relax punch generate power n speed
at the point of contact we dont' make very firm grip in wrist, just make it compact...
that's it
good point from jim...too
-TkdWarrior- :cool:

[jonp]

good points teazer - i can see where ya commin from
not the way i do it *at the moment* but that could always change
;)

never say never an all that

i do however keep the elbow low and along the centre for as long as possible.

just thinking out loud - but the bong sau leaves you pretty open if you held it there, just as a punch would - if you held it there.

any other people turn the upper arm so that the elbow faces inwards when its straight?

[teazer]

just thinking out loud - but the bong sau leaves you pretty open if you held it there, just as a punch would - if you held it there.

any other people turn the upper arm so that the elbow faces inwards when its straight? [/B]

Hence all the traditional warnings about leaving your bong sau out there!
Not sure I follow what you're saying about the elbow direction - perhaps you could rephrase?

[jonp]

yea thats what i was getting at - you dont leave the punch out there either! but you dont not do a bong sau cause it leaves you open. just like you dont not do a punch...

but as you said sometimes its better to be cautious
-just as sometimes theres no need - all a case of the given situation guess

about that elbow...

when i straighten my arm the upper part from the elbow to the shoulder rotates inwards so the crook of the elbow instead of facing upwards faces across my body. you need some flexibilty and relaxation of the shoulder to do this.

try holding your left hand with the fist vertical and try to rotate your arm inwards so that the crook of the elbow turns 90o.

at work atm so had to be brief - if you still have difficulty visualising ill try again :)

explaining in text has never been a strong point!

peace

[teazer]

Certainly. You have the choice, and accept the consequences. Up till that point in the conversation though, there seemed to be an overwhelming sentiment that people had to try to fully extend their elbows when punching which seems more than a little odd.



The elbow thing we're talking about - you're talking about punching here, rather than bong sau, right?
from your description, I can see it two ways. However, as you mentioned keeping the elbow on the centerline, I assume for eg your left arm it would be twisting anti-clockwise, so the palm ends facing palm upward.



To have peace, prepare for war!

[aelward]

[Censored] writes:
> If locking or tensing up--even briefly--really maximizes power
> transfer, why do you suppose we don't see this technique in
> commercial machinery?

I am no expert on commercial machinery, but I would hazard to guess that machinery designed to deliver destructive kinetic force does not resemble a human body in terms of (1) materials or (2) schematic engineering.

Please note that my conjecture is based soley upon what I have seen and a somewhat logical thought process.

(1) I have never seen a machine whose destructive "arm" has multiple joints, a combination of hard and soft materials, and an innate vulnerability. You may say that a swinging ball is similar BUT the ball seems to me more like a clenches fist than a loose one; and, rope/chain/suspension mechanism is not aligned with the central mass.

(2) One machine I have seen is the type that uses vertically placed pounders to pound obtuse metal objects into flatter pieces. It hits vertically, I assume, so that one particular outside force (gravity) supports the motion, and not oppose the vector of force. The human body, on the other hand, is free standing, and, unless we are r5a, might have less than perfect rooting to the ground.

The caveat of course, is that I don't know commercial machinery. Please feel free to present any examples that counteract this idea.

[aelward]

Jim Roselando writes:
> Leaving you methods relaxed does not mean you are using
> mainly arm mass. It means you understand the alignment of
> the body and do not need the contraction. We hit with the
> bones aligned and the knuckles are the impact point. If you
> strike with the aligned body thru the knuckles (not the fingers)
> you do not need to contract.

I would say that "alignment" is different from "linkage." I think my definition of alignment is close to yours (your strike is aligned on the central plane through the knuckles to your body).

Linkage, IMO, is the connection between two people's centers of gravities. For example, if you were to stretch out your arm and tense all your muscles, someone could push or pull you, and, if they had a better root than you, be able to unbalance your center of gravity. If your arm was relaxed at this point, you could convert your arm into a different position. In the first case, you are linked (according to my definition), and in the second case, you are not. So conversely speaking, if you want to link yourself offensively, then the briefly tightening your arm on moment of impact allows for a temporary link that transfers power (and by minimizing contact time, increases impulse). I would guess (and once again, this is not scientifically proven) that tightening the musculature around the articular surfaces keeps the energy from being absorbed in the joints.

My logic may be flawed, but then, how many other styles out there maintain tension throughout a punch and still deliver a knockout punch?

> Every time you contract you lose speed and
> penetration IMO.

I punch between 30-35 times per 5 seconds using the method of tightening-relaxing, and I feel like I gain more penetration when I tighten at the end (of course, this is very unscientific, it is just a feeling).

Next, speed doesn't necessarily equate to penetration. A few weekends ago, an amazing practitioner hit me with a very slow moving fist that I could feel into my spine, and sent me staggering back 3 feet. I don't know if he tightened upon impact though (maybe the people who study directly with Ken Chung can enlighten us on his punching method).

> Give it a shot! You may be surprised!

But not one to dismiss something out of hand, I went to my school today and tried hitting a wavemaster with both methods. The method I am used to using caused it to go back further; but then, that could be because I am more used to doing it. On the other hand, it wasn't all that much different from the completely relaxed method; and of course, it is not a very scientific method.

[[Censored]]

So conversely speaking, if you want to link yourself offensively, then the briefly tightening your arm on moment of impact allows for a temporary link that transfers power (and by minimizing contact time, increases impulse).

A muscle that is frozen is not issuing power, period. Don't argue.

So, when you freeze your arm, you have stopped hitting with your arm. You can still hit with the rest of your body through your arm, assuming you didn't freeze that up too.

Throwing is not hitting. Throwing means reliance on momentum, and wasting energy over time. Not efficient.


Throw:

|..**.....
|.*ee**...
|*eee..**.
|eeee....$
|eeee.....
|eeee.....
+eeee-----


Hit:

|.......$
|......*e
|.....*ee
|.....*ee
|.....eee
|*****eee
+-----eee-


e = unit of your energy expenditure
x-axis = time
y-axis = energy
height($) = damage to static structure on impact
Pardon my gross oversimplification. :)

Why not let the bones and muscles each perform their own natural functions?

My logic may be flawed, but then, how many other styles out there maintain tension throughout a punch and still deliver a knockout punch?

Because they are strong enough, that they can succeed while using only 50%-90% of their capacity?

[kj]

Originally posted by aelward
Next, speed doesn't necessarily equate to penetration. A few weekends ago, an amazing practitioner hit me with a very slow moving fist that I could feel into my spine, and sent me staggering back 3 feet. I don't know if he tightened upon impact though (maybe the people who study directly with Ken Chung can enlighten us on his punching method).

No tightening. Never.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[[Censored]]

I am no expert on commercial machinery, but I would hazard to guess that machinery designed to deliver destructive kinetic force does not resemble a human body in terms of (1) materials or (2) schematic engineering.

You know the average comprehension of physics on this board...people want to describe every possible event in terms of "F=M*A" and nothing more. :rolleyes:

So we should look at something simpler than the human body. Anyone can understand how a jackhammer works. Does a jackhammer have a mechanism to lock itself in place after extension? If not, why?

[UltimateFighter]

Originally posted by [Censored]
So conversely speaking, if you want to link yourself offensively, then the briefly tightening your arm on moment of impact allows for a temporary link that transfers power (and by minimizing contact time, increases impulse).

So, when you freeze your arm, you have stopped hitting with your arm. You can still hit with the rest of your body through your arm, assuming you didn't freeze that up too.

Throwing is not hitting. Throwing means reliance on momentum, and wasting energy over time. Not efficient.

My logic may be flawed, but then, how many other styles out there maintain tension throughout a punch and still deliver a knockout punch?

Because they are strong enough, that they can succeed while using only 50%-90% of their capacity?


You are wrong censored.

Boxers routinly punch totally relaxed throught the gloves. They are constantly told to relax and 'let the punches flow'. This is exactly the same idea as in Wing chun. Boxers have to hit relaxed otherwise they get tired. Relaxed punches conserve energy.

[teazer]

Not sure about jackhammers, but I assume they work similarly to nail guns - either pneumatic or electrically (solenoid) powered. In both cases involve buiding up pressure + resistance for a time, then combining a release of that +additional power applied in that direction. In some ways this would be similar to coiling up before a strike. when the strike happens though, everything is powering it in the same direction.
The difference with machinery is that it's easier to design it to release built up tension very quickly. Applying maximum power instantly is less easy to do mechanically - hence the common reliance on chemical methods. Humans on the other hand can twitch a muscle quickly, whereas relaxing it takes the time.
The bonus factor that muscular tension can impart is increased stability, but sometimes at the expense of power. Most machinery is designed to only move in particular directions, as guided along defined paths. The design of the machine defines & limits the directions of movement.
Humans on the other hand have the flexibility to move in many directions, so use tension to limit the possibile direction changes. The important thing would be whether the muscles causing resistance to movement are necessary, and if they are contrary to the direction of movement.
Things like tightening the fist may or may not be necessary depending on how precise is the striking angle. They do not necessarily reduce power imparted unless for instance they stop the muscles in the wrist/arm etc from doing their thing although often it will as groups of muscles tend to tighten together.
Of course, the tension will stop your chi from flowing so the ol' kong jing is out of the question :D

[teazer]

Sorry, got off on some tangents! To answer the question, no jackhammers would not have someting to lock it in place when extended. It goes out as far as is designed, then the power system reverses - either through air pressure differential or switching the E/M from the solenoid - & it comes back in.
There is something in the system that acts similarly to structural factors - basically the person's weight on the machinery which itself forces the compressed air/EM onto the 'pointy bit' keeping it against the ground.

[wingchunalex]

i fully extend my elbow and clinch my fist upon impact.

[Gandolf269]

When chain punching the air I was taught to let the arm fully. The arm and hand (fist should remain relaxed). When hitting an object (person or bag), your arm should not be fully extended at the point of contact because at that point it has exausted all of it's energy. This would be caused by too much distance between you and the object. Move half a step closer so that the arm is bent at contact and is still moving forward. Let the object you are hitting stop your punch. The bent elbow can also offer you some protection against low level punches.

I do tighten my fist a fraction of a second prior to hitting an object, but keep the arms, and your shoulders relaxed. Boxers can keep their punches relaxed even when hitting an object, because they wrap their hands before they fight. Something you won't have time for on the street.

[black and blue]

Pretty much the same as Gandolf269, and we don't punch to pull extension, for much the same reasons as noted by Red5Angel.

Of prime focus... punch comes from the elbow and shoulders must remain relaxed.

[kj]

Originally posted by Gandolf269
When chain punching the air I was taught to let the arm fully. The arm and hand (fist should remain relaxed). When hitting an object (person or bag), your arm should not be fully extended at the point of contact because at that point it has exausted all of it's energy. This would be caused by too much distance between you and the object. Move half a step closer so that the arm is bent at contact and is still moving forward. Let the object you are hitting stop your punch. The bent elbow can also offer you some protection against low level punches.

I do tighten my fist a fraction of a second prior to hitting an object, but keep the arms, and your shoulders relaxed.

Boxers can keep their punches relaxed even when hitting an object, because they wrap their hands before they fight. Something you won't have time for on the street.

I practice similarly, sans the tightening, relying instead on a heavy but soft, vertical, non-deformed sun character punch.

To carry the line of thought a tad further, if my opponent was sufficiently open and receptive to penetration of my punch, I would allow it to follow through to full extensive if appropriate. In other words, I would not intentionally withhold so as to keep the arm bent, though this may naturally occur in many/most cases. I also do not force the arm to full extension at all times; and at the wrong time that can also be a very precarious thing to do.

Caveat: allowing the punch to fully extend would not be for the purpose of sending the opponent away. I am too old and tired to go chasing after them. ;)

Someone posted this video clip of my sifu punching on the wall bag. (Some of you may have seen this already.) It is hard to discern the fine details, but the gist is there. His fist is relaxed the entire time; no intentional tensing of any sort.

Kenneth Chung punching the wall bag (http://www.geocities.com/wc2002a/wc2002a.AVI)

The worst thing about this clip is the appearance of his huge biceps and triceps. He would no doubt prefer that someone smaller illustrate what he is doing, so there is no mistaking for reliance on big or strong muscles. His arms look even bigger in the clip because of his elbows being squeezed in, and that darned black shirt against his skin. The primary area of engagement is not the greater tricep region, as it may initially appear, but if you look closely you will note that a smaller, highly developed area around the elbow is doing most of the work. For optimal playing of the clip, be sure your volume is turned up.

So there is an example, anyway, in case it is germane to the discussion.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[burnsypoo]

is there a particular Codec that video uses? I must not have it cause I can hear the impacts but get no video.

[kj]

Originally posted by burnsypoo
is there a particular Codec that video uses? I must not have it cause I can hear the impacts but get no video.

Dunno. I remain strategically ignorant on such matters as a form of scope control. ;)

It plays like a charm with my install of Windows Media Player.

Sorry not to be of more help.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[burnsypoo]

I mean I hit my monitor, slammed my keyboard... even tried yelling at it. Nothing seems to work!

[UltimateFighter]

The only negative I have heard of punching to full extension is that it can damage the elbows. Does anyone know if this is a valid concern?

[kj]

Originally posted by UltimateFighter
The only negative I have heard of punching to full extension is that it can damage the elbows. Does anyone know if this is a valid concern?

Depends "how" you punch. Hyperextension of the elbow is a bad thing. Full extension at the wrong time and in the wrong circumstance can also allow your opponent to easily damage your elbow. So MMV.

The way some folks punch, granted with power or strength to spare, it's probably a darn good thing for them to brake or pull their punches.

For you, I can't say, since I don't know the mechanics and philosophy behind how you punch, how much "strength" you apply, preferred distance, etc..

For me and the way I practice now, no problem. I don't "punch" so much as "place" with emphasis on "long and lasting." If it penetrates, I want to ensure my opponent enjoys every last ounce of it. If it doesn't penetrate, that's the way it goes, and I don't over commit myself in the process or preclude my own ability to change. At least in theory, if not in practice, LOL.

FWIW, in the "old days" when I practiced somewhat differently, I did indeed suffer sore elbows on occasion. So it can happen. Ouch. :eek: Context is everything.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Gandolf269]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by UltimateFighter
The only negative I have heard of punching to full extension is that it can damage the elbows. Does anyone know if this is a valid concern?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I think as long as you don't force the arm to full extension but stay relaxed and let it end up that way you should be OK. I have blown out tendons in both elbows (from another sport) and they have never bothered me as a result of chain punching in the air (arms going to full extension). BUT, I am not a doctor so take this with a grain of salt. 8>)

[IronFist]

Originally posted by kj



Someone posted this video clip of my sifu punching on the wall bag. (Some of you may have seen this already.) It is hard to discern the fine details, but the gist is there. His fist is relaxed the entire time; no intentional tensing of any sort.


Hmmm. Not like I can talk, but it looks like he's punching downward almost. What I mean is, the level at which his fist hits the bag is a few inches lower than the height his fist is at before he punches. Is that the correct way to do it?

IronFist

[kj]

Originally posted by IronFist


Hmmm. Not like I can talk, but it looks like he's punching downward almost. What I mean is, the level at which his fist hits the bag is a few inches lower than the height his fist is at before he punches. Is that the correct way to do it?

IronFist

LOL. I'll let you be the one to tell him he's doing it wrong. ;)

Seriously though, consider the range of a valid punch, and whether or not he is positioned within that valid range. I would say he is. Also, there is a "sweet spot" on the bag - kind of the "belly" of the bag - which we aim for. I'd say he's doing a pretty good job of putting it in that spot with precision each time. If he's not, again, I'll let you be the one to bring that to his attention. :D <joking w/ ya>

In our way of practice and learning, there are two basic types of "energy" (or force vectors, as I like to think of it) for the punch.

The first is referred to as "yan" (profuse apologies for the awkward romanization). This has a quality similar to using a stone chop. The force is straight forward, steady and flat on contact, and "long and lasting" (our mantra). This is the first way students learn and practice to punch.

Your point that the bag could be higher is valid, and may indeed help the beginner. More advanced practitioners can typically express this "yan" quality within a range of punching elevations.

Later on, we add another quality referred to as "dup" or "dap" (again, apologies for spelling). This possesses not only the "yan" qualities, but additionally a downward, almost falling, force vector.

If forced to pick my poison to receive either a sincerely intended "yan" or "dup" strike I would unhesitatingly choose the "yan." At least with "yan" there's a chance I might be displaced backwards and just break a few bones, a skull or something. "Dup," OTOH, keeps you right where you are and threatens to implode your innards. Having felt it's quality, it scares the bejeevers out of me, even at low to moderate magnitudes.

Just some loose change in case you find it worth anything.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[IronFist]

I appreciate the quick reply. I'll read it again more thouroughly when I get home from class today. I'll probably have more questions, too.

IronFist