Which Style Tai Chi Chaun

[dre_doggX]

I am studying the Yang Lu Chan basic form of Tai jiquan, from Erles book, he also has a book called Reflex Violence, that teaches instinct fighting and such. People say the Cheng Fu version has taken out alot of the Fa-Jing out of the form, and this is what most people know the derviations of the Yang Cheng Fu, intending for healing. but the Yang Lu Chan form which was made by Cheng Fus grandfather Lu Chan, is about dimmak and has all types of fajing. espeacially in its advance levels.

Which style do you do and which you like better.

If you you want to see some of these free books go to.

www.taijiworld.com and click the free downloadable books.

[taijiquan_student]

Zheng Man Qing, Yang (Lu Chan) style, different from Erle's YLC form.

[gazza99]

A book can be good reference, especially when it comes to a long form. But you really need to see the movement. I would recommend at the very least getting the video on it. Erle also has a series of 8 tapes on the one form, Very detailed instructon.
Or find a good taiji teacher in the area....

Gary

[Walter Joyce]

As far as I know, there is nothing to support Erle's claim that the form he practices is the same form as Yang Luchan practiced.

Does anyone know of any historical sources to support his claim?

[Nanking '28]

I study Chen Pan Ling Tai Chi...
I also study Yang Cheng Fu style...

Chen Pan Ling is really cool...

[Brad]

As far as I know, there is nothing to support Erle's claim that the form he practices is the same form as Yang Luchan practiced.

I find it's best to take any claim of YLC Taiji with a grain of salt. So many people claim to teach YLC's original form, yet all teach different things. It's either good or it's not. Yang Cheng Fu is considered by many to be more for health than other styles, while YLC was considered a grade A ass kicker. So it's only natural for people to claim lineage to YLC as he was a famous fighter. It gives them a way to say, "my Taiji is for fighting, not new age spiritual enlightenment and health" etc.

[Brad]

I've tried 4 of the 5 major styles so far over the last couple years. They're all great. Right now, I'm torn between Sun and Chen styles as my favorite. I'm going to try Wu(Hao) next month and then pick one to "major" in.

I'm really interested in Fu style though, but I don't have access to it where I live.

[n0rmann]

I do Hong system Chen Taiji.
I like it because you can see the application in each and every move, and it hurts when it's done to you. Hurts bad. Real bad.

[HuangKaiVun]

I studied various styles of Taijiquan under my sifu Jiang Jianye.

However, I eventually did as he did - compiled my OWN set.

I made a Taiji set for myself consisting of 13 very basic postures, largely corresponding with the Yang and Cheng Man Qing styles. This was because I have some of the harder jings in the other styles I practice.

Actually, the set is 15 movements when I include the beginning and end. I do it in a mostly linear fashion, changing directions when the "Step Back and Repulse Monkey" move comes. I have all 13 moves going in one direction, and then I switch sides and develop the other. Thus I can go either left or right.

The reason I compiled my 13-posture set is because for fighting purposes, I find a simple linear set much more easy to work with. My students seem to find the set graspable and individualizable. I'll be breaking open the individual moves in the class setting in order to drill reflex, reaction, and repetition.

When I open my school, I shall teach my 13-posture Tai Chi set to my students as opposed to the more well known (and much longer) Tai Chi sets.

[dre_doggX]

I was think about doing a 13 posture form. only it also had the five fist of hsing-i, but I think you should just teach the 13 postures first and still teach the full form, because there is so much to tai chi chuan, and we have enough watered down forms as it is.

[dedalus]

Who knows if any "authentic" Yang Luch'an stuff is still around? Or any Cheng Fu, for that matter? Even during their own lifetimes these great martial artists expressed their arts differently at different times, and it seems unrealistic to take a snapshot of short period and say "that's it!", let alone preserve it through the countless understandings and interpretations of its inheritors.

I think all anyone can do is to indicate their teaching lineage, and in the case of those who claim to practice YLC taiji, this usually involves a lineage through Yang Shou Hou. There are quite a few people around with some connection to that particular Yang, amongst them Chen Panling's students (one of whom I recently met and thoroughly admired) and Erle Montaigue, as menioned above. The controversy around Erle seems to stem from the fact that quite a few people doubt his account of having learned from one of Yang Shao Hou's few students (who would have been a classmate of Chen Panling's). If you can't accept good taiji on the grounds of its manifestation before your own eyes, then I suppose that doubt becomes a problem, but for people who want to learn a superb fighting system it's academic. One thing that is worth keeping in mind is that beneath the whole "Old Yang" problem, EM has a very well documented lineage to Yang Cheng Fu and his martial system.

Trying to address Walter's question, I guess that a historian needs to talk to some other YSH inheritors and do some structural comparison, but it doesn't seem as though anyone can be arsed. The main point I wanted to make (and I've urged it many times on this forum) is that authenticity looks respectable when you're talking about lineage, but it's a waste of time if you're talking about preserving a system as it was originally laid down (because it wasn't). Martial arts are about skill - if you're a collector of anything else, you're wasting your time and deceiving your students.

[Shaolin Master]

I am a practitioner of Zhao Bao Taijiquan.

I favour Zhao Bao TJQ because we practise a variety of framework methods and have differing methodologies and combat strategies in addition to those of the other taijiquan.
In addition we have many weapons and a 2man fighting set.

Regards,

ChanLong

[Daniel Madar]

I have done all the major styles except sun.

I specialize in wu jien quan. My secondary is Hao. I started with Hao but took to wu much better.

Go find a teacher. Books and videos are no way to learn, especially as a beginner.

[bob10]

Contrary to some claims the Yang Cheng fu lineage retains fa jiing training in several areas - solo drills of form movement, fast forms, staff form and training and so on, at least through his son Yang Sau Cheung's line.
In fact the large frame form, which was YCF's main form I guess, when done properly, is a foundation for fa jing training. From large frame to small frame.

Claims that "this is what YLC did" should be taken with a pinch of salt wherever they are from.

[Repulsive Monkey]

I agree with Bob on this one. Erle is not a bad man but I have always a little peavish towards his Yang Lu-chan form claims. I feel they are a little unsubstantiated. I would of thought that if anyone would have retained this form it would of been the Yang family members, and maybe they have (I seriously would of liked to of thought so too!). Still on the other hand who knows?!!

[Walter Joyce]

I study the YCF form with Gin Soon Chu, one of Yang Sau Cheungs 3 disciples, and I believe that this lineage has a strong argument for a great similarity with the YCF form. Great effort has been made to see to this.
As for the fa jin expression in this lineage, I am not aware of it, but perhaps that is because I have not been taught it yet. I have pushed with Chu Sifu and both his sons. While they again, may have been taking it easy on me, there was no expression of fa jin such as I felt when I briefly worked with Wang Hei Jun, the Chen stylist, recently.

[HuangKaiVun]

dre_doggx, thanks for the advice!

However, my style is NOT watered down. It's shorter, but traditional kung fu sets are usually incredibly short because that's the only way the moves could be used for combat.

I do have the Hsing Yi 5 elements in there, though I didn't deliberately go out of my way to do it. Yang lineage Taijiquan has all 5 elements already.

For example, "Strum Guitar" can be Hsing I's "Pi Chuan".

[Nick Lo]

Huang

All I can say is wow.
You mastered taiji while studying under the guy who's published videos on every style currently in mainland china, to such an extent that you were able to create your OWN style. I am impressed. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I can't tell if you're insulting our intelligence or if you actually believe this cr@p you post.

~~Keep on diggin~~~6 feet ain't so far down!!~~~

[HuangKaiVun]

I'm but a plane ticket away from your victory, Nick Lo.

I want to see you kick my butt, since you have the real stuff and I'm the fake.

[bob10]

FWIW I once showed Vincent Chu the "YLC" form, he didn't seem overly concerned with it, or that it was anything than another version of the Yang form. He did once show me a short part of something he called the "Old" form, along with a few other Yang forms.

[TkdWarrior]

well i do sun style and Yang competition forms.
about coming to YLC form by erle, i guess he gave some pretty good explanations to his lineage. watever be it, i found Erle a very nice and warm person.
-TkdWarrior-

[Rory]

Hmm I have been studying the full Wu form actually I just got back from shanghai studying with the 3rd generation master (my master is a 5th generation). By far one of the better thing about the Wu style system is that it if much more intact that the yang style with has now become some crappy competition form (yes thats a bad thing) most of the moves are lost in it. But wu style is very nice because it hadnt been as widly taught in the west so for the most part most lineage holders should be farely respectable, the fighting system and the push hands system are also still intact with is nice unlike the yang styles push hands wich have now become some what of a mockery and have began using push hands for health:rolleyes: :( :confused: never in Tai chi history has push hands been used for health? Know if you do pursue this path look for a master and make sure they are a lineage holder dont get sold on to some half ass pot head who thinks hes real spiritual. If you want to know more you may e-mail me at Wustyle (wustyle@nethere.com)

thank you rory

[gazza99]

I have only seen and heard bad things in regards to the Wu style, but i havent seen that many (only like 3 teachers), so my points may very well be invalid.

I noticed the Wu style (as I saw it) did not follow the classics, they were double weighted, and bent alot at the waist rotating even while completely bent over, it was in no way a good martial technique, perhaps a good stretch?

I have also been told that the mechanical problems in the Wu style could have been due to either one of the old masters having a crook hip, or it being taught wrong to them on purpose becuase they were Manchurian or something like that? Could you perhaps tell me more? Or at least the correct story as you know it?

Thanks,
Gary

[bob10]

I've often wondered about the bends in some forms. I've also seen similar in one of the Yang forms. AFAIK it's mainly a waist-loosening thing rather than any technique.

[HuangKaiVun]

Push Hands is VERY useful for health - when used PROPERLY.

Testing one's jing, which Push Hands is, helps straighten out one's posture and detect where physical infirmities are.

My student, who has some medical problems, is working with me in Push Hands to relieve an old horse riding injury as well as a recent otitis interna infection. The "Ward Off" posture has proven to be particularly effective in creating the necessary "massage" needed for health improvement.

I don't care whether or not this usage of Push Hands is "traditional" or not. All I know is that my student likes it and it's WORKING.

[dre_doggX]

I have edited my first post with the link, and

you can download his books at this site for free for now.

www.taijiworld.com

[Rory]

Oh okay well firstly let me say that they do not bend but lean foward on most moves instead of standing strait up, we do this for the reason that there is a lot of stress that goes on your lower back muscles when you are in certain positions but when you lean foward you are still using those muscles just not cramping them. Hmm some of the other things you state are probaly from Wu Gong Yi (he was the son of the first wu master). He took the techniques that usally had a meduim-large frame and made them very small, it looked a lot like sun style, but one of the bad things about it were that they purposley tried not to move there lower body that much so there were a lot of funky waist movements. Now that style pretty much exists in Singapore and singapore only most of teh other wu masters do not care for the style or do they acknowledge it as part of there system. Wu style was a system made to follow the classics, the reason that it is now called wu instead of being called yang is the one reason that the master made improvments on it wich Yang Ban-Hou and the other yang masters at the time dissaproved of the change. But in my opinion if you can find a real teacher wu is the way to go

[Shaolin Master]

I think as everyone pays too much attention to forms and health.......they cannot understand each others styles.....

There is no need to practice all major styles as someone exclaimed, there is in no way anyone with enough real skill at the moment to invent their own form (they can change the positions around and the number but not the method), to learn many taiji styles would mean the practitioner did not understand any one of them........ maybe to search but not as a habit should many styles of taiji be done.....

Recently, I have spent time with a Wu style Master (Disciple of Ma Yue Liang) and although I practise Zhao Bao we could see each others techniques and how amazingly similar they were, not to look at but the concept the power methodology and meaning.....like the leaning forwards is the posture in their thought after fajing, and I must say it makes sense when in push hands.......

True practitioners of taiji should have their own style but if their level of understanding they can understand the variations as being nothing more than new interpretations.

Yang style in world is relatively washed out as so many low grade practitioners are teaching it. Wu is less popular but if from a good teacher highly effective.... in push hands and in combat.

In two months time I will visit my uncle Wang Hai Zhou and Zhao Ji Yan in Zhao Bao village again to gain further insights into our framework and these moments are a pleasure....... moments with true taiji practitioners not demostrators.......

As an example, YLC even stated he learnt the art from Chen Style but mastered it in ZHao Bao village........many did not know this...
Wu style also was influenced by the Zhao Bao, Sun style is another derivative of Zhao Bao........Why is this, because it was not the shape they found but the concept the method the realisation......

So practice and study your taiji well all the others will make sense to you in time.......

cheers,
Wu Chan Long
NanChang, JiangXi Prov, PRC

[Shaolin Master]

I think as everyone pays too much attention to forms and health.......they cannot understand each others styles.....

There is no need to practice all major styles as someone exclaimed, there is in no way anyone with enough real skill at the moment to invent their own form (they can change the positions around and the number but not the method), to learn many taiji styles would mean the practitioner did not understand any one of them........ maybe to search but not as a habit should many styles of taiji be done.....

Recently, I have spent time with a Wu style Master (Disciple of Ma Yue Liang) and although I practise Zhao Bao we could see each others techniques and how amazingly similar they were, not to look at but the concept the power methodology and meaning.....like the leaning forwards is the posture in their thought after fajing, and I must say it makes sense when in push hands.......

True practitioners of taiji should have their own style but if their level of understanding they can understand the variations as being nothing more than new interpretations.

Yang style in world is relatively washed out as so many low grade practitioners are teaching it. Wu is less popular but if from a good teacher highly effective.... in push hands and in combat.

In two months time I will visit my uncle Wang Hai Zhou and Zhao Ji Yan in Zhao Bao village again to gain further insights into our framework and these moments are a pleasure....... moments with true taiji practitioners not demostrators.......

As an example, YLC even stated he learnt the art from Chen Style but mastered it in ZHao Bao village........many did not know this...
Wu style also was influenced by the Zhao Bao, Sun style is another derivative of Zhao Bao........Why is this, because it was not the shape they found but the concept the method the realisation......

So practice and study your taiji well all the others will make sense to you in time.......

cheers,
Wu Chan Long
NanChang, JiangXi Prov, PRC

[gazza99]

To quote Rory:

"Oh okay well firstly let me say that they do not bend but lean foward on most moves instead of standing strait up, we do this for the reason that there is a lot of stress that goes on your lower back muscles when you are in certain positions but when you lean foward you are still using those muscles just not cramping them"

You say that Wu was developed around the classics? What I have seen, and what you describe violates those classics.

Here are some quotes from the classics:

"Body Central and upright-the body should be straight and erect, not LEANING to any side" (fundamental key points) (my emphasis by using caps on "leaning"

"The upright body must be stable and comfortable
to be able to sustain an attack from any of the eight directions"

"When the tailbone is centered and straight,
the shen [spirit of vitality] goes through to the headtop"

The Wu style was started by Wu Quan-you, who learned from Yang Ban-hou, so according to you his own teacher did not approve of his modifications and creation of the Wu style itself. I just fail to see how breaking what everyone else in the world of taijiquan knows as basic posture is an improvment?

But perhaps I am incorrect as to the "leaning" you mentioned, it may be too small to make a difference? But the few teachers I saw this was not the case!

best regards,
Gary R.

[Paul Eugene]

ok, i practice wu style. let me see if i can explain. Also, if my explanation is not good enough then go to lee white's leapord kung fu schools, or johnny kwong ming lee's website. They have a detailed explanation of the posture which i will try to summarize.

Basically, as far as I know, it was wu chien chuan who made changes to the wu style and not his father chuan yao. Those changes were mainly to take out repetetive movements and jumps to make the form smooth and continuous. Also, Yang and Wu styles were not even distinguished separately until someone from the outside of the martial arts community did so, according to what I've read.

Anyway, you cocyx is always tucked in wu style just as in other tai chi styles and with this tucking you are rooted in the LEAN. If you look at a good stytlist in this lean which is just a bow stance you will see that there is a straight line from the top of the practicioner's head to the heel of his foot. The tail bone is tucked and the practioner is rooted. I believe that the classics mean that you should not lean such that you are off balance or not in equilibrium but central equilibrium is a characteristic of the wu style.

paul

[gazza99]

Thanks paul, I was reading about Wu style on a site, and apparently some styles lean more than others? I read something about the Beijing style being more upright?

Anyhow I have found a clip of someone doing a Wu form, for the most part his potures are upright, however if you watch for a min or two you will see him bend over almost completley at the waist (like he is about to touch his toes) as he rotates, then does brush knee I believe...Could you explain this bending to me? This is the leaning I was remembering I saw before.

You have to scroll down about halfway then click the play button on the player window.

Wu form (http://taichited.tripod.com/html/wustyle.htm)



Thanks for the info!!

Gary

[Paul Eugene]

dude, first let me say that although i recognize what this guy is doing he does not do the form the way we do it. his movements are alot bigger, more expansive. the use of the waist is much more obvious with his form. our form is much tighter, the circles are smaller and in general we lean alot more in our bow stance. he's really upright. I know you are supposed to be really flowing but i would say that our movements are much more concentrated than this. the lean before the brush knee is the wu style's version of "white crane spreads its wings." in the application i've seen on video, if someone grabs you from behind then the idea is to lean forward and sort of turn as you bend to come up behind the grasping arm. i'll have to look at it and try it myself. man, i'm still surprised at how different his form looks. i only have my school as a frame of reference for how wu style is done.

by the way, even as you lean you are still supposed to stay balanced, you're not supposed to go so far over that someone could pull your arm or push you from behind and have you fall over.

[wufupaul]

Sorry, double post.

[wufupaul]

I hope the diagram I sent you will help you to see why Wu stylists use the plow oxen stance. People that don't study the style always say that the postures aren't in line with the classics, or that some of the postures are double weighted. So, since you don't study the style, I'll try to explain some of the misconceptions that you have.

In case you didn't know, Wu style was developed from the Yang small frame which Wu Quan Yu learned from Yang Lu Chan, and Yang Ban Hao. Up until the early 20th century, they were known as the same style. There are fast forms, a san shou form, many similarities still today to yang small frame.

"Body Central and upright-the body should be straight and erect, not LEANING to any side" (fundamental key points) (my emphasis by using caps on "leaning"

The body is erect, especially when there is incoming force. The only time that the body leans forward, is when there is a discharge of energy forward. It's not really a lean; the body naturally aligns itself in that position when moving, striking, or pushing forward; it is a rooted posture. Wu stylists don't lean forward and wait for you to attack. If the point comes in combat when you move back or are retreating, a good Wu stylist will send you flying backwards with a strike or push from that position.

"The upright body must be stable and comfortable
to be able to sustain an attack from any of the eight directions"

The body is stable and comfortable. Again, Wu stylists don't stand in a "double weighted" stance or lean forward waiting for an attack.

"When the tailbone is centered and straight,
the shen [spirit of vitality] goes through to the headtop"

Wu stylists always keep the tailbone tucked, and there is a straight line from the crown to the coccyx. When the plow oxen stance is applied, there is a line from the crown to the heel, it's very effective for keeping the ground path and transferring power. So, in that one posture, the best mechanical posture is a straight line from the crown to the heel, at least in Wu style.

"The Wu style was started by Wu Quan-you, who learned from Yang Ban-hou, so according to you his own teacher did not approve of his modifications and creation of the Wu style itself. I just fail to see how breaking what everyone else in the world of taijiquan knows as basic posture is an improvment?"

Maybe Wu just found something that worked better, ;) Honestly, I could really care less about the classics. If it works, it works. I studied Wu style because I liked the content. If you have the chance to talk to a good Wu tai chi teacher, they can talk classics with you, I won't spend alot of time on them.

"it was in no way a good martial technique, perhaps a good stretch?"

I'm pretty sure that the posture you're referring to in the video is "White crane opens it's wings." Ever seen a hip toss? Or a deflection down then poke them in the armpit? Or grab the ankle and push on the hip? Those are just some of the apps. for the posture. That one isn't really a lean or a stretch, either. The body weight moves forward, there is no stress on the back. When rising up, the weight is on the left foot, maintaining the ground path, so it may look kind of awkward, but is a rooted martial technique.


"I have also been told that the mechanical problems in the Wu style could have been due to either one of the old masters having a crook hip, or it being taught wrong to them on purpose becuase they were Manchurian or something like that?"

Mechanical problems? A better term would be mechanical differences, or, in the opinion of some, mechanical advantages. You know, I heard that the reason you small frame yang stylists shake so much when doing fa-jing moves is because Yang Shao Hao was epileptic, and everyone just copied him doing his tai chi. Pretty funny story, eh? :rolleyes: I've never seen any documented evidence of any Wu style master having a crooked hip, it's just another urban legend. As far as learning a different form because they were Manchurian? That is a theory, but, not much evidence behind that theory. The small frame of Yang tai chi was supposedly developed for the bodyguards and members of the Imperial court. The restrictive clothing that was worn inspired Yang Luchan to develop a smaller frame, or style that didn't need much as much room to generate power. Basically, the Imperial members just learned a different form because of the restrictive clothing, Yang later had people from the Imperial guard learn from him outside of the courts, but the movements were different, because they had more room to move in their clothes. That's one theory, anyways.

Anyways, hope I answered some questions. Oh, Rory..who was the 3rd generation Wu master you learned from in Shanghai? I'm not aware of any 3rd generation masters that are still alive. Most lineage charts I've seen for Wu start with Quan Yu. For example, Wu Quan Yu, to Wu Chien Chuan, to Ma Yeuh Liang. Ma Yeuh Liang was a 3rd generation master. Are you starting at Wu Chien Chuan? Maybe that's it.

Oh, here are some good pics of Wu Chien Chuan. http://www.glink.net.hk/~taichi/wujg_p.html Note the nice ground path in the pics, :D

[gazza99]

Thanks Wufupaul and Paul for the explinations!!

I still dont really see how the version of white crane spreads wings is a stable martial technique even with wufu's descriptions, I was taught it once in one of the few Wu style classes I had. But perhaps ill have to see or feel the martial application to make me a believer :)

As to the overall posture and form I agree that compact is good, especially for practical use, but enlarging it in the beggining, and ever so often to magnify and find the errors is helpfull to me.
I can see how the Wu postures could be stable, more so now that I really look at it, and ignore the white crane spreads wings :D .

But im still trying to see those leaning postures with the head "suspended from a string" Its just hard to see how that could be anything but perpendicular to the ground, but that could be own bias and interpretation? Nonetheless my questions have been answered, thanks!

Regards,
Gary

[Walter Joyce]

If this post covers material already discussed in re Wu style, just ignore it.

I studied Wu for about 2 years. I was taught similarly about the straightness of the spine from the crown point to the heel, Also, I was taught that when in this [position, if you bring your hips forward, shifting to an erect posture, it icreases the leverage used to uproot your opponent.

I don't think I saw this point being raised.

Having switched to Yang, I think it is easy to see how Wu was developed from the Yang, but I was taught that Wu places more of an emphasis directly on the four internal energies (peng, ji, liu, ahn), and in using the meridians as "markers" for the positioning of the limbs, and for manipulating the energy as your hands transition from one posture to the next.

[Walter Joyce]

My apologies Mr. Dude. I'll read more carefully next time, despite the fact that my eyes glaze over at times...:)

[wufupaul]

Thanks for posting the article, it was interesting. I saw those pics of Wu Chien Chuan and I never bothered to ask my teacher(Johnny Lee) why his face was looking away, haha. Now that I notice, his face is looking right at the camera instead of where the intent should be in several of them.

[Scotorabie]

Well,

As a student of psychology, I know that what people like is what they are exposed to most often. Therefore, the question of what style you like is irrelevant, since it is simply a manifestation of exposure with the resulting beliefs and attitudes that are generated as a result. As far as one style being better than another (eg Erle's Lu Chan) this is also irrelevant since the individual practitioner makes the difference and not the art he or she learns. For instance, I know of people who do "deadly styles" that include outright combative sequences with violent movements, etc, and yet the best martial artists I have met perform the Yang Cheng Fu style forms slowly. In addition to this, it is my opinion that training with other people is exponentially more important that individual training (exercise) and that the methods chosen for individual training have little bearing on actual combative abilities gained due to the fact that there are no outside stimuli influencing the practitioner to develop useful motor and perceptual skills.

As far as Erle Montaigue is concerned, he is a likely a very dangerous man from the accounts I have seen of him. However, everything I have come in contact with that has been written by him seems extremely dogmatic in its argument structure in that he sees martial arts in very narrow "natural selection" like terms. He also seems (to me) to manifest the attitude that Taiji is a secretive, esoteric killing art and that the older, the purer and more deadly the style.

But whatever,

[Sam Wiley]

I have noticed a difference lately in the YLC form Erle teaches and YCF's form. I probably would not have noticed at all, had I not read a comment by someone else just beginning to learn both forms who stated that he felt YCF's form flowed more smoothly than YLC's. My observation was the exact opposite. The first long form I learned was YLC's, and every time I practice YCF's it feels like I'm leaving something out. So I am starting to agree with the statement that the first style you learn is the one you prefer. Erle seems to like YLC's form well enough, but YCF's form is the first one he learned, and he has stated that occasionally, he lapses into it while performing YLC's form.

I don't know about the "older more deadly statement." But Erle did go looking for older versions of Taiji, so that may have been true a while back. However, he brought a style back from China that he believes to be a presursor or Ur-style to modern Taiji. The applications are anything but esoteric, and are simple and brutal in the extreme. And if you've seen the amount of material he has produced both in print and in video, or had ever learned from him in person, your opinion might be that he gives things out in way too much detail, and to anyone who wants it.

In any case, the information here about the Wu style has been very interesting. It's nice to see a civil discussion.

[jon]

Yay for the ability to drop my two cents in the slot...

According to what IVE been told (ie its all my exposure not gospell).
Yang Chen Fu's long form has been though three different itterations.
The original frame included kicks with many of the steps and was performed faster with fa-ging. The combat mind was on creating force though small frame circles and on evading then countering with solid blows or kicks. The training also included a long gim form as well as a short plus a long two man set. Interesting a book was published with pictures from many of these sets but it was pulled from the shelfs by the govenment shortly after. Still you CAN occasionaly find pics from it around. Yang Chen Fu's eldest sons linage still retains some or all of these traits.
I learn this so obviously i can kill you all so listen on.

The first restructure was done when Yang Chen Fu became very popular. The form was similar but done slowly and more smoothly with less kicking and was basicaly easyer to learn. Many of Yang Chen Fus more famous students including Chen Man Ching learnt this form and system. The long gim form was also removed and the two man set was cut down considerably. This set was then written up by Chen Man Ching and agreed upon by the govement to be published. MANY photos from this form exist.

Then finaly when Yang Chen Fu got well basicaly errr VERY fat, he changed the form yet again. His postures became VERY open and the movements much simpler. He also removed many of the smaller more intricate movements. At least this is how he PERFORMED. There is a good chance he still would have taught some of his better students the old frame as well. The new form was basicaly for public consumption and to please the govenment.


Still the plain fact is Yang Chen Fu was ALWAYS very very good. He was never beaten to my knowledge and thats a pretty darn good record for a massively overweight martial arts master.


Anyway before someone tells me im wrong please read my disclaimer...
I DONT CARE!!!
Its just gossip really, everyones dead...
We can all guess about what we think its 'meant' to be but in the end it just comes down to if it works for YOU then do it.



PS Yang Lu Chan never actualy BEAT his opponets he simply 'pushed' them. Infact most of his 'matches' where infront of govement officals and full fighting was almost never a part of it.
Yang Chen Fu was so fat its no wonder no one could ever hurt him.
Chen Style comes from a village ffs
Sun Lu Tang was darn good but just did his own thing. How can you know you have his 'fighting' hand?
Fu Chen Sung never taught ANYONE most of his better stuff.
And errrrrr ummmmm Wu style is to soft and looks sissy :p
So who really cares anyway?

Yeah that should annoy everyone, im going out to practice my LONG gim form. ner ner ne ner ner:p :rolleyes: ;)

Im sorry everyone im just playing

[dedalus]

Time for a new sig! :p

[Shaolin Master]

The kicking concepts were taught to YLC from the Zhao Bao Style! (Which contains kicks in every step almost when performing the large frame).

The Zhao Bao 2 man set also predates the Yang one and was probably the concept which made the Yang style develop one.

Postures mean nothing unless understood.

Wu Style has some of the best training methods for push hands.
They really understand the essence of Taiji practically. Yang emphasises the postures often too much (of course there are exceptions I doubt William Ho is an exception though).

So go and play sword ( I am sure you mean form as you'd never learn to use it )


I am just playing also. :D :D

[RAF]

http://www.geocities.com/meiyingsheng/

Mei Ying Sheng studied with Fu Zhong Wen nearly all his life as a formal student. He also studied with other direct lineage holders of Yang Cheng Fu. Ted Knecht runs his website and could answer many of your questions. Ted also is a gold medal winner in the Wu style of taijiquan and fluent in Chinese.

These guys are no BS. They know who trained with whom and how Yang Cheng Fu trained both early and late in his life.

Although I am not a Yang Cheng Fu practitioner, they are the one of the best sources for understanding Yang taijiquan.

Other guy, Howard??? Thomas, spent 5 years in China with Mei Ying Sheng and wrote a great book on his experiences.

In the translated text of Fu Zhong Wen, Mastering Yang Style Taijiquan, Louis Swaim lays out some interesting notes by Fu Zhongwen. Read the history section. This guy knows Chinese inside/out and translates professionally as does Ted Knecht. They travel to China frequently, translate from those who are in the direct lineage and in essence, clean up a lot of the bullshyt you hear.

A little descriptive comment on Yang Cheng Fu's flavor from Chen Weiming, long time formal student:

"After Yang Cheng Fu went to the South, he began to explicitly emphasize the use of Taijiquan in treating illness and protecting health. For example, when Chengfu first performed his art in Shanghai, the movements of Separating Feet and Kick with Heel still retained the training methods of RAPID KICKS having the sound of wind. Later, however, he changed to slow, gradual kicks, with the placement of fajin (issuing energy) in the kicks being concealed within. OTHER BOXING POWERS and METHODS (in reference to Yang Cheng Fu's system) were also transformed to a continuous pace with no breaking of the cadence and from a hurried pace to an even pace." p. 6.

"ChengFu's boxing style during his middle years was bold and vigorous, powerful and strong, with imposing leaps." p. 7.


What you can infer is that the original flavors of Yang shi taijiquan were indeed more like the Chen style flavor of lao jia (Fu Zhong Wen writes this in an earlier part of the text) and it was Yang Cheng Fu who was responsible for making a major alteration in the system (Swaim also indicated that Fu Zhong Wen also acknowledges that Yang Lu Chan did the same) and it tells you exactly why---for health.

Again, if you go to China's Living Treasure, you'll find Fu Shen Song's son, right before your living eyes, Fu Sheng Yuan, demonstrating 3 or 4 single moving postures from the form with fajing expression. I can only imagine what they teach behind closed doors.

Pure speculation (hypothesis)---Zheng Man Qing cured Yang Cheng Fu's wife of an illness (in the late 1920s or 1930s?? in Shanghai) and was repayed by closed-door instruction. Did this incident, along with Zheng Man Qing's entry cause Yang Cheng Fu to reflect upon the more on the need to change it from martial arts flavoring to health orientation? It makes sense given the historical time frame (late 1920s to 1936) and the prevalent use of guns.

To our best documented evidence (minimal speculation) we know that the term taijiquan only comes into usage

Yang Lu Chan (1799-1872) learned the system of boxing (Chen style whose postures of pao chui whose movements are almost identical to those found in the manual of Ming General Qi Jiguang's Boxing Classic: Chapters on Essentials (circa 1561)) and taught it to Wu Yuxiang, calling it varously RUAN (soft) or HUA (dissolving) boxing, based on Yang's ability to dissipate and render ineffective his opponent's attacks. It was only after Wu Yuxiang was involved with it that the boxing system obtained the name "taijquan". p 7, The Origin of the Name "Taijiquan", Taijiquan Journal, vol. 2, no. 1, Winter 2001.

All of these classifications Yang, Chen, Wu may not be as important as underlying principles.

Last quote, "Philosophizing or intellectualization of the martial arts to have been a late-development phenomena in Chinese history that evolved along with a broader trend of philosophical thought, one which emphasized combining literary and physical training under a concept of "practical learning". The educator Yan Yuan (1635-1704) who emphasized teaching both civil and martial virtures was at the forefront of this school. He is known to have personally practiced boxing and sword. Wu Yuxiang to whom the earliest use of the term "taijiquan" can be traced, and his brothers seem to have been influenced by this school of thought." p. 7

Current thought on the Zhao Bao style, hu lei jia, etc. is that they are definite outgrowths from the Chen Village. The oral history and records of the Zhao Bao system have yet to be scrutinized by by the academics at large but indeed may eventually lead to more insights and changes in the history and characterizations of the taijiquan system. Only time will tell.

Academics and lineage are never good substitutes for practice and principles but they do have their role, especially in helping sort BS from fact.

[jon]

Shaolin Master

lol are you just silly or having a go?
Please tell me your post was sarcastic?
You REALLY think your style is correct and we all learnt from your linage?
hehe errrr ok whatever :p
Im sure your right and YLC had no mind of his own to utalise his brain in the creation of his hand:rolleyes:

"The Zhao Bao 2 man set also predates the Yang one and was probably the concept which made the Yang style develop one."
* hehe oh yes... Who would have thought of creating a two man set before the Zhan Bao village ;)

"Postures mean nothing unless understood."
* 'Postures' mean little full stop. Tai Chi was not created for 'posing'.

"Wu Style has some of the best training methods for push hands."
* Agreed and its a centiment often repeated to me from my own sifu. Nothing against Wu Style or any other here, its all the same to me.

"Yang emphasises the postures often too much (of course there are exceptions I doubt William Ho is an exception though)."
* lol are you trying to insult my sifu?:(
Then again only you would know of what my instructor has or does not. Your Tai Chi comes from the great Zhao Bao village, certainly you ARE the 'shaolin master':eek:
Im glad you picked up his name... After publishing over 200 articles on his arts and being a well respected member of the Chinese community with many friends in many places due to his constant charity work im sure your not the only one.

"So go and play sword ( I am sure you mean form as you'd never learn to use it )"
* You just keep thinking that:D Its proberly safer for you in your little box.

"I am just playing also."
* Rubbish!
If you have something to say, say it.
Dont hide behind your little shelter please come right out.
I dont even know who you are...
My post was very obviously made in jest and came with a large disclaimer stating it was mainly personal observation and experience.
Why bother trying to pretend you know my teacher?
You think you can somehow scare me with insulting him?
Ill drop your name to him tommorow and see what he has to say about you, should prove interesting... Wu Chan Long correct?
My money says he has never heard of you.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

While I have many opinions on the origin arguments let me just comment on the Yang two person form. I doubt the Zhaobao origin as Fu Zhongwen said it was created by Dong Yingjie and Chen Weiming, students of YCF with no ties to Zhaobao.

[Shaolin Master]

Put a line to catch a fish and you catch a whole school of fish how nice it is.........some can give but cannot recieve :D Of course I am just playing someone has to and Jon, you have so why can't I....???

Please ignore my comments (at your pleasure) as nothing is proved, but I can say that in Zhao Bao we have differing versions and in China this is more widely recognised after materials have been scrutinised. It is for this reason that Zhao Bao is now recognised as a major key style along with Yang, Chen, Wu, Wu, Sun......Also, note I did not say it originated, I said the idea may have derived from it.....

No, not trying to insult him just toying with you .....I have actually sat on the same table as you at one time..... :D be cool don't fret, whats up you aren't practising Hung ga any longer?

Of course he knows me (not by name....not as Wu Chan Long.....).
My Shi Di is your Shi Xiong.........the developer of the website
www.ancestraltaichi who now practices Wu Style Tai Ji instead!

The one who performed He Quan at Market City, the one who does lion dances.....etc.....no one "knows" me as I don't like all the attention but when they see me they "know" ....

be happy peps../..

I'll post more academically a little later....

Wu Chan Long
JiangXi Prov, PRC

[jon]

Nice to see a kinder tone in your post.
Im not sure exactly what you where trying to prove but maybe my sence of humour is simply different to yours.
Your actual statement about the two man form and the kicking i DO find interesting. It was only the context in which it was made that annoyed me.
To MY knowledge the two man form is an OLD set, although this is disputed by YCF youngest son. Many of the older students claim it predates YCF, this would certainly not supprise me.

"My Shi Di is your Shi Xiong.........the developer of the website"
* hmm not sure EXACTLY what you mean by 'shi di' and 'shi' xiong'.
The creator of that website is a very nice man but ive unfortunately never had the pleasure of meeting him at training.
If your implying he is my senior and your junior then your barking up the wrong tree. I respect mostly the students who actualy show up, there are many 'older' students whos skill is not exactly first rate yet they still like to pretend they are above and beyond. We mainly just let them, sifu respects hard work above all else.
I can only name one of My sifus older generation students who ive met who has good skill in his hand and his skill is not really fighting related. Still his form is great. Still im sure there must be others i have not met. I know there are a couple of good ones back in China and Taiwan as well.

Does this make you a practioner of Choy Lay Fut then? If so i might be starting to catch on who you are.

"whats up you aren't practising Hung ga any longer?"
* Too much to eat at one time leaves you bloated...
I would certainly like to finish off my Hung training. Sifu Awad is a very skilled man and will always have my respects. Still Hung does not suit me like the internals do and i find the internals easyer to apply.

Anyway please enough hostility between you and I. This has happened before and I dont really understand the reason. If you actualy HAVE an issue with me then please feel free to come and see me in person and we can talk like gentlemen instead of passing notes over the internet like children.

Happy training, hope your enjoying your trip
Jon

[Shaolin Master]

We are all individuals so of course we all differ in sense of humour. So if we try and accept each others sense of humour maybe offenses would not get in the way.

I started studying Zhao Bao Taijiquan back in 1986 with my teacher and have recently continued my studies as my teacher did not practice all the weapons (there are soo many) that the Zhao Bao village contains (I was missing the long axe and Kwan Dao). So I have returned to complete my studies (framework, and Weapons) at Zhao Bao village with uncles as well as to build further relationships around China.

I used to teach in Sydney and now I have also started teaching at the request of the local government some students here in China at the JiangXiShi University Bajiquan, shaolinquan and other styles.

Jon I have no issues with you, also I won't be back to Sydney for a few years so you have plenty of time to become excellent at Baguazhang and Taijiquan.

Sorry , I have never studied Choy Lay Fut in my life (probably one of the few I haven't studied). I do practice Hung Kuen of the guangdong regions (some call it village hung ga).

Wu Chan Long

PS : Please email when you have time
sifu@authenticshaolin.com

[jon]

Agreed regarding the humour issue, especialy where culture is also concerned. My sifu never understands my humour and i sometimes have a hard time getting his. I just dont understand how him punching me in the nose is actualy funny, anyway i digress;)

I hope to go to China myself with my sifu before tooooo long however making arrangements and getting time is proving complicated. Plus organising with the people my sifu needs to meet up with while we are there. Still when i do make it i hope to be able to have a look around at all of the differing varients and strains of Tai Chi exist. The world would be a VERY boring place if we all studied the same styles.

Glad to hear you have found some students to teach, i would love to teach (traditional) myself one day. Still i have a way to go before i can call myself that standard.

Im glad to hear there are no issues, im sometimes a little jumpy with regards to certain issues and certain people. Im sure its just a miscommunication.
Still im sorry to hear you will be out of Sydney for a while, i hope when you get back we can sit at the same table again. Maybe this time we will know who each other is and actualy have a conversation :)

Im just trying to put a face to you and the guy i was thinking of is a Choy Lay Fut sifu. Still i think i may have an idea, where you wearing a suit on the night in question?

I didnt know you had practiced Hung Ga, i would love to see some of it one day if ever there is a chance.
Anyway i will try to email but atm i dont actualy have my account online.
Still it should be back up soon and i will try and get in contact.

All the best, happy training and i hope you find what you seek during your stay.
Jon

[Shaolin Master]

Wujidude,
He used to practice Yang style.

Jon,
cool that would be good, until that day (or if you do travel to China let me know where and when and we could catch up as well).......later.

[dre_doggX]

Iam over half way done with memorizing the Yang Lu Chan, know Iam studying th Tai Chi Classics, to help get the details, and stuff I think next summer I will see one of Erles Students


I got his video tape, and books

[Kaitain(UK)]

it's irrelevant what style you study - finding a good teacher in any style of TJQ is an achievement. Ultimately we're all travelling in the same direction - we're just bickering about which way is quickest or has the nicest views.

Chill out and rest assured that your style is the best :)

P.s Actually Yang style is the best and you all suck

[solur]

My teacher's name is Jingyu Gu, he teaches Wu-Style from Beijing.
Our form is very unique and practiced in America only by his students at the time (or if anyone from his lineage in China has come here ; he does not know of any as of yet).

His skill is very good, and stresses the importance of learning authentic taijiquan including push hands and that a martial aspect must be present as it is a key part of taijiquan. He does not however say that the martial aspect is primary, but also enourages daily qiqong practice.

He has changed my life forever (no kidding), this is for the good..

-Will