Wow. Interesting Internal Art Video Clips

[Braden]

http://www.evolutionary-systems.com/html_docs/video.html

[TaoBoy]

Nice site. Well put together. Cheers Braden.

[joedoe]

I am waiting for someone to say how sucky the takedown attempt was.

Merryprankster?
Ryu?
Anyone?

:D

[SevenStar]

the takedown sucked :D

Actually, I liked the takedown, it reminds me of tani otoshi. I don't know if I like the way he stopped the double leg though...seems like the guy could plowed through him if he hadn't stopped driving his legs.

[neptunesfall]

the very last clip (water strider applications) was pretty **** cool.

[Helicopter]

Excellent stuff, liked the multiple attacker stuff, the guy has excellent movement.

With water strider application he was a bit flash, lots of wasted movements.
He went to the outside and had the guys arm and went over the top to strike the head, but then switched under to elbow, and then switched all the around his lead leg for the throw.

From the head strike he should have taken the lead knee and put him in a reverse head-lock.

From the elbow he should have done a 'bow-and-arrow' chin na and taken him over his knee.


N.b. I definately don't think I'm better than him, I'm just critiquing the application as an exercise for my own learning (and sharing in the hope that someone else has some opinions.)

[The Willow Sword]

the music that went along with it:rolleyes:


MRTWS

[Xebsball]

I liked the clips, he was very smooth

[Chang Style Novice]

I didn't see all of em (stupid dialup! But I get cable next week!) however, I did really like the three on one clip, especially when he threw the one guy against the wall and while he still had the had, turned around and body checked him backwards. How did he do that without giving up a choke, though?

[Daredevil]

Yeah, excellent clips and good site. Very nice ideas.

Re: the multiple attacker scenario, .. well, the attackers didn't really give all their greatest (that's what it seems like anyway), but I don't think that was the point. I think the point was more in demonstrating the principles of fighting multiple opponents. That was done very well. Very cool.

[ewallace]

That multiple attacker clip was one of the more realistic ones I have seen.

From a development standpoint that site actually has a very poor layout.

[Crimson Phoenix]

yes, the multiple attacker clip was nice...I especially like how he lightly kicked the guy in the foot near the end, and tripped him LOL

as for the water strider application, I just didn't like the way he pulled his arm all the way back to chamber his strike to the belly (I always look for short distance power). Anyway, his attack to the head, the one that sents the other guy's hair waving showed impressive control...

Overall, I think the clips are great...

[neptunesfall]

i think that strike was supposed to be a hit and an elbow.
i'll have to go back and look again.

[neptunesfall]

yeah...pretty sure it's an elbow strike (he pulled it?) into a whipping forearm hit to the stomach. watch it closely in the slo mo.

[Ford Prefect]

That takedown attempt would definately be like something you'd see in a real world fight in that it lacked any technique what-so-ever. The guy just dived in and tried to grab his waste. A trained "wrestler" would perform some kind of penetration step and grab behind the knees while staying centered and then driving through with his trailing leg to either to follow-up on a counter or to turn the guy to the ground.

BTW, I'm not attacking the guy. Somebody just asked for an opinion on the takedown. A pure BJJ could perform a 100% better "leg tackle" as that, and they mostly suck. :)

[diego]

Originally posted by Crimson Phoenix
yes, the multiple attacker clip was nice...I especially like how he lightly kicked the guy in the foot near the end, and tripped him LOL

as for the water strider application, I just didn't like the way he pulled his arm all the way back to chamber his strike to the belly (I always look for short distance power). Anyway, his attack to the head, the one that sents the other guy's hair waving showed impressive control...

Overall, I think the clips are great...

you mean after the head shot right?, what do you think if he threw a short elbow to the rib at the chamber point then snapped back slightly then hit the belly!?. at the moment i have no one to try it on but he prolly just left that hidden move out "the elbow" and just showed the basic example of the forms frame applied?.:)

[diego]

:cool: the multiple attack clip looks funny if it were real, like three thugs attacking you and you just keep walking around them and slapping them in the face!...this would be a good Action-Movie Routine!.

Will this page have more clips up?.

[Braden]

Ford - I'm not sure there was an opening for a penetration step. He controlled both distance and level quite well, don't you think?

Sevenstar - I don't think the guy stopped driving. I think his driving was stopped.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Dunno, I need to watch the clips again (i'm at work now). But I remember this particular move made me go "uuuhhhhhhhh"...Even if it were an elbow strike, it doesnt' need to be chambered that way. You don't strike with the point of the elbow to the chest like you would "a la Muai Thai" to the temple. These types of linear elbow strikes strike can definitely be done in short distance power fashion, I seen it in white crane (we often use it), in the 4th palm of jiang rong qiao's bagua, and in other internal arts (I believe some call it "embracing the moon"). It's an elbow strike that is sent at the exact distance and placement Mr Su is, but it definitely isn't chambered so heavily. Also, it can indeed be followed up by a slap from the back of the hand to the midrif, but it would need a little stepping, whereas Mr Su stands still.
It's the only thing I didn't like in the clips, that looked to me unrefined and unimpressive. The rest (control, reaction, stepping) was thoroughly enjoyable though...I need to watch the clip again to see if my mind changes on the second view...

[Braden]

CP - Remember, he's trying to show a literal interpretation of the form he demonstrates on another clip. Had he made all the circles smaller, you might be happier with the application, but it wouldn't look as much like the form to most viewers.

[Helicopter]

To my mind it doesn't really matter that he chambered the elbow, he was to his opponents outdoor and he had control of the arm. Why not take a good swing? :)

[Crimson Phoenix]

Braden, yes, possibly...I agree with your comment...I really want to check that clip again...in my first quick peek, it was that particular passage that made me think "faux pas" in the middle of all this good material...

Helicopter, yes, indeed...I guess it's just my conception of what higher performance is: short, rough and whipping strikes accompanied by quick and expert stepping. I just don't like guys who run around and swing like crazy...it's just me :D

[Ford Prefect]

Braden,

Watch the slow-mo clip. He definately could have performed a penetration step. All the guy did was bound up and then bull rush in. His body was aligned all wrong. The other guy probably could have just pushed down on the back of his head to drop him to his belly since his weight was so far forward and angling down.

Like I said, it's a good way to practice self defense because that is what you are most likely to see out in the streets. I doubt anyone will be attacking you with a technically clean leg tackle. On the other side of dice though, one could say if you are good at stopping a clean leg tackle, then that one shouldn't be a problem. Who knows? Do both I guess. :) The guy looked pretty smooth in all the clips though. I was just critiquing that tackle.

[Martial Joe]

I liked them all except the multipul attacker one.

That was set up right?

It seemed like everyone of his guys that got there before he was ready hesitated. That just kinda bothered me.

I liked the first two when he threw him on the ground. Those were real cool.I liked how he moved.

[Rolling Elbow]

Jesus guys,

He's showing the application of the form NOT what he would do EXACTLY every time. He does chamber allot with the elbow but he also patty cakes off hands too much..who cares, watch him move, he knows wht he's doing and could easily switch up his techniques at will. Furthermore, the harder his uke's come at him, the harder he hits them..that is why they hesitate. We've all been there. Last time i came hard i got a mule kick in the nose..thank god for the cage. So now i take it slightly easier and get decked by straight jabs or Vasiliev hoooking hands.!

[bob10]

To be fair it's very difficult to show multiple attack realistically. For one thing everyone will come in at once pretty mcuh and for another if you are serious about defending yourself you have to really hurt people. That's difficult to simulate in a demo or training environment.

I did think the students were being "nice", but thought that the guy did move well. At least he didn't get into a "combat stance" and have them come in in a line ;-)

[Braden]

Helicopter - Because, as I said, he was demonstrating a literal interpretation of the form. Which what you suggest isn't.

Ford - What are Mr. Su's hands doing in the hypothetical where judoka gets a deep penetration step? It looks to me like, if judoka was any closer than he was, he'd have been hit and grappled by Mr. Su. You do notice judoka's lead foot is being swept as he tries to enter, right?

[NafAnal]

students being nice? That's a critique you could use of any multiple attackers demo, especially systema. More than likely the harder they go in the harder it would be for them to get up after.

Personally i thought he looked great. Moved very similar to guys in systema. Indeed similarities to many arts.

[Ford Prefect]

Braden,

I really don't want to drag this on as I was just offering my unbiased opinion as somebody with grappling experience. I wouldn't even had said anything if it was not asked. If you want to believe it was a valid entry, then so be it. I guarantee you that any wrestler will agree it was sloppy and akin to something you'd see from some drunk street thug. I've already explained a few reasons why it was sloppy. I know that I have a lot of experience defending and executing leg tackles on trained grapplers with striking involved. If I tried that, I'd be on my belly with punches being rained down on the back of my head. As I said, I don't want to drag this on, so this is my last post on the subject.

[bob10]

NA - that was kinda my point, as you say the harder they come in the harder they go down. After a while any student who's "suffered" will start to be nice ;-)

Thats' why I think multiple attack drills should primarily be about good movement, as in that clip, or for fear control

[Cipher]

I thought they were pretty good overall. Anyone ever train in that system or with those people?

[The Willow Sword]

i got a chance to look at the other clips,,the first one i looked at(the intro) was kind of d0rky(the music and all) the other clips i thought were nicely done. still though...what i would like to see in a training clip is the methods in which a true grappler would be delt with,,as that one clip was not what i would consider, effective.

MRTWS

[Crimson Phoenix]

yeah, and wait, if the guys was a good grappler (tm) then none of this takedown stop would be possible hehehehehe

[Braden]

Ford - I understand and appreciate you offering your opinion. I was only hoping to get some specifics as to what you'd rather have seen. It's difficult to come to an understanding about a situation when you're told only that it's 'wrong.' After all, this is a high-ranking japanese judoka, so certainly the expectation was that he'd be able to represent decent grappling to some extent. Without any specifics as to how he was 'wrong', I (and presumably most of the other readers) are left to conclude that you are mistaken; and the source of your mistake is that the bulk of your personal experience and trusted observations have been encounters between two individuals when both of them wanted to close to the distance and in the way you've come to deem proper for 'good' grappling attempts. When I questioned you further, it was not my intention to question your authority, but only to attempt to breed an understanding of what you were saying for the reader, so that your authority wasn't even a question.

I'd like to hear your comments on this http://www.dogbrothers.com/bytes.htm , in comparison to the clip in question.

I guess since he's not posting anymore though, the reader might enjoy comparing them.

[Braden]

Cipher - Mr. Su's system is based upon the orthodox internal chinese arts of xingyi, taiji, and bagua, which many of us train in. Regarding Su's method specifically, there are some people on the emptyflower board that have attended his seminars.

[Ford Prefect]

Alright, if you put it that way:

Mr. Su's clip:

1) First off I'd like to mention that I've trained at a two seperate Judo dojo's to better learn how to throw with a gi. One is actually where USA Olympic Judoka Jimmy Pedro visits when he is tuning up. I've never been shown or seen a leg tackle at either of either of these Judo clubs. Partly because it's difficult attacking the legs with the gi as there is so much to grab to neutralize the attack and partly because Judo focusses more on throws and trips. A typical Judoka's leg tackle would be akin to a folk-style wrestler's drop seio-nage.

2) As I said before, the guy doesn't perform any sort of penetration step. He just bounds off! of the ground and dives in, body bent at the hips and weight driving down and forward. A technically clean leg tackle would consist of a pentration step where the weight is distrubuted to the front leg which is bent. The body itself doesn't bend at the hips much at all, and the back is straight or arched. (Imagine a bow-and-arrow stance where the feet are facing forward and the front leg is bent so much that the back knee is on the ground) This should take you within grabbing distance. If it doesn't then you should be able to pull out.

3) Once in "range" the guy just grabs at the guys waist. His freaking center for god's sake. Even non grapplers know this is a very stable part of the body. Just watch football where tacklers just bounce off a guy if they don't get low enough or over power him up top. A technically clean takedown (after the penetration step described above) would consist of a grabbing behind the knees. From this posistion he would then bring his back leg through in a straight line while dropping his front leg to its knee. This will give you driving power straight through your target rather than the diagnolly-down power shown in the clip.

With what was shown in the clip, one would just need grab the back of the guys shirt and drag him forward and down (more like leading), so the attacker would be belly down on the ground in front of you. You may proceed stomping head into pavement or jump on his back and elbow the back of his neck to oblivion.

-Hope this helps highlight some of the things I'm talking about. Even if the guy got a hold of Mr. Su, he wouldn't have any power to really do anything. It was a weak attack. Also, I'd like to point out that the technique shown could be his choice technique for such a sloppy tackle attempt. I never once stated an assumption that he couldn't handle what I just described. I was just critiquing the tackle as was asked. I have no idea oabout Mr Su's skill but he looks extrmely fluid from those clips and it seems like they train well.

Dog Brothers Clip:

1) What can I really say. It's just a technique illustration of what you can possible do if in that situation. Just like anything else, if all the peices fall into place like that then it could work, but if you try to force it, it won't.

[Braden]

Ford

"First off I'd like to mention that I've trained at a two seperate Judo dojo's ... I've never been shown or seen a leg tackle at either of either of these Judo clubs."

There's nothing indicating judoka is going for a leg attack, as opposed to any attack off a shoot, which you admit yourself (and lists of official kodokan throws support) he is trained to do.

"...the guy doesn't perform any sort of penetration step....This should take you within grabbing distance. If it doesn't then you should be able to pull out..."

This is where I have the problem. In your hypothetical, what is Mr. Su doing while judoka steps unmolested into grabbing range?

"Once in 'range' the guy just grabs at the guys waist"

No, 'once in range', judoka was hit in the head, swept, put in head-arm control, and out level-changed.

"This will give you driving power straight through your target rather than the diagnolly-down power shown in the clip."

You're referring to the direction Mr. Su directs him with the low back stance to counter the takedown?

"Dog Brothers Clip...What can I really say. It's just a technique illustration of what you can possible do if in that situation. Just like anything else, if all the peices fall into place like that then it could work, but if you try to force it, it won't."

This is certainly a different account than the one you gave for the clip featuring Mr. Su. Can you point to a technical difference that accounts for your difference of opinion, or is it more of a general feeling?

Also, I can think of quite a few shoot attempts from MMA events quite similar to our japanese judoka friend (in fact, some from even further away), for example from the Sherdog Royce Gracie highlight video at 0:13, 0:28, 0:46, 1:03, and 1:27. Do these fall more into the "technique you can do in that situation" camp, or the "lacked any technique whatsoever, you'd never see it in a real fight" camp? Again, is there anything you can point to for your decision, or is it more just a hunch you've got?

Video available at http://www.sherdog.com/videos/roycegracie/roycegracievideo.shtm for anyone interested. Although most of the videos on the site will have examples of the technique in question.

Thanks for your input.

[Rolling Elbow]

Ford man,

wise up... the penetration step as you mentioned would give Mr. Su additional time to alter his positioning. Bottom line, the man understands distancing and has good reflexes..if you took him at the legs, i am sure he would have something else to counter. **** people are picky on here! ;)

[Ford Prefect]

"There's nothing indicating judoka is going for a leg attack, ..."

LOL! Besides the explanation of the clip on the web site. Reading is FUNdemental. ;)

"as opposed to any attack off a shoot, which you admit yourself (and lists of official kodokan throws support) he is trained to do. "

I really hope you're not trying to imply that Judoka can leg attack well. There are plenty of strikes in the Kodokan manual too, and man, you will rue the day a Judoka punches you. ;)

"This is where I have the problem. In your hypothetical, what is Mr. Su doing while judoka steps unmolested into grabbing range?"

Come again? How am I supposed to know what his response would be to it? I never said anything about him. I was commenting on the tackle.

"No, 'once in range', judoka was hit in the head, swept, put in head-arm control, and out level-changed. "

Right... the very nature of a poor leg tackle leave you open for this.

"You're referring to the direction Mr. Su directs him with the low back stance to counter the takedown?"

No. I'm refering to the way the Judoka's "power" is directed in the tackle. He is slouched over at the waist and diving in. Rather than pushing through his opponent (ie parallel to the ground), he is angling downwards. I'm sure you've been taught in striking that if you hit something straight, then you will penetrate it. If you hit something at a weird angle, the blow will glance off. With the slow speed (compare to a fist) and the large surface area involved in tackles, this is multiplied greatly.

"This is certainly a different account than the one you gave for the clip featuring Mr. Su. What was the technical difference that caused the variation in opinion?"

No difference in opinion at all. What are you asking? I very well remember saying in my last post, that this could be Mr Su's counter to a poor leg tackle. (ie all the chips falling into place for that specific technique) If you asked me to critique the dog bros take down, I actually couldn't since I've never fought with sticks. I'm sure that the mechanics would be different after getting whacked in the face so hard you are almost dropped.

I also remember saying that I never stated that he couldn't handle a leg tackle like the one I'm talking about. I'll just copy and paste since I can't expect you to actual remember my last post...

"Also, I'd like to point out that the technique shown could be his choice technique for such a sloppy tackle attempt. I never once stated an assumption that he couldn't handle what I just described. I was just critiquing the tackle as was asked. I have no idea oabout Mr Su's skill but he looks extrmely fluid from those clips and it seems like they train well."

What exactly do you have a problem with? I never said anything about the sequence. One last time for good measure as maybe it will sink in this time: I'm just talking about the leg tackle itself! Not about Su. Not about his proficiencey. Not about the time dillation undergone travelling at significant fractions of the speed of light. Just the leg tackle. Get it?

We've both been on this board for a while, & you normally seem a pretty reasonable guy. What's got your panties in a bunch over this?

[Ford Prefect]

Rolling Elbow,

Wise up man. If you bother to read my post before commenting on it, then you'd know I didn't say anything about Su. I was commenting on the tackle. Why is everybody so **** insecure about contructive criticism?

[KC Elbows]

****it, I came here to pick nits, but Ford and Braden beat me to 'em.:D

[Braden]

Ford

"LOL! Besides the explanation of the clip on the web site. Reading is FUNdemental."

I realize it was labelled 'leg tackle', clearly a reasonable and non-technical description of the attempted attack. That doesn't imply it was explicitly a single- or double-leg pick or the like, especially considering the video evidence clearly shows otherwise.

"I really hope you're not trying to imply that Judoka can leg attack well."

Since this is the exact opposite of what I said, no. What I'm trying to imply is that there are attacks other than single-, double-legs and the like which one can execute from that kind of an entry, which some judoka are skilled at.

"Come again? How am I supposed to know what his response would be to it? I never said anything about him. I was commenting on the tackle."

:confused:

"Right... the very nature of a poor leg tackle leave you open for this."

Right... when your opponent outfights you, you end up getting hit. Wasn't that the whole point to begin with?

"No. I'm refering to the way the Judoka's 'power' is directed in the tackle. He is slouched over at the waist and diving in. Rather than pushing through his opponent (ie parallel to the ground), he is angling downwards."

Watch again. Or any other reader who is wondering. Judoka's torso very clearly doesn't go beyond parallel until after Mr. Su has head-arm control and a sweep on him.

Maybe if I speak in ultimates, you'll understand what my problem is.

Ultimately, I don't care about this one clip, what I am asking is - what would it take for you to look at a clip like that and say 'gee.. that kungfu guy sure countered a good shoot.' And, ultimately, the answer is - nothing, it's utterly impossible that you would ever say that. Any time you see a shoot that fails, you can point at a mistake that was made, and say the fighter had no skill. Did judoka make a mistake? Of course. Did he take a risk, get sloppy, and get hit? Absolutely. This isn't the question. Mistakes, risks, and sloppiness are facts of any martial engagement. The only question is - does your opponent have the requisite skill to take advantage of your mistake, or do you just wallow in each other's ineptness? The answer here is - Mr. Su had the requisite skill.

[Ford Prefect]

Sorry guys. I didn't think he was dragging me into what it degraded to. I was trying to have an intelligent conversation about.

Just for the record:

"BTW, I'm not attacking the guy. Somebody just asked for an opinion on the takedown." -My first post

"The guy looked pretty smooth in all the clips though. I was just critiquing that tackle." -Second post

"I really don't want to drag this on as I was just offering my unbiased opinion as somebody with grappling experience. " -3rd post. Please read unbiased as I focus on internal CMA now...

"I was just critiquing the tackle as was asked. I have no idea oabout Mr Su's skill but he looks extrmely fluid from those clips and it seems like they train well." -4th post

"I never said anything about the sequence. One last time for good measure as maybe it will sink in this time: I'm just talking about the leg tackle itself! Not about Su. Not about his proficiencey. Not about the time dillation undergone travelling at significant fractions of the speed of light. Just the leg tackle" -my last post...

See. No harm intended. never slighted Mr Su once. Take care. No more posts from me. :)

[Braden]

Ford - There's no need for you to apologize, and I too am sorry if anything was taken personal. All I wanted to know is, like I said above, what would it take for you to say - 'gee, that guy countered that well'? That's it.

[Nexus]

Braden,

Why do you insist on others saying what you need to hear?

[KC Elbows]

Ford,
Just a question, and please don't feel picked on, it's just you're the "good grappler" on this thread;) , but I'm curious to your response to one point Braden mentioned:

"No. I'm refering to the way the Judoka's 'power' is directed in the tackle. He is slouched over at the waist and diving in. Rather than pushing through his opponent (ie parallel to the ground), he is angling downwards."

"Watch again. Or any other reader who is wondering. Judoka's torso very clearly doesn't go beyond parallel until after Mr. Su has head-arm control and a sweep on him."

I'm curious as to whether you agree with this or not. I cannot access the vids from work, so when I get home, I want to check them out, and see what you guys are talking about.

Braden,
You are the master nitpicker.:p However, I know that you're just trying to clarify things. I know that this conversation has cleared up one thing for me. When I get to making vids for the six elbows website, I will get grapplers to be the ones going takedowns and such, and kickers for defenses against kicks, etc.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

did anyone else just start kinda skimming the tackle posts less and less thouroughly?

ford .. . even though i couldn't keep reading all the back and forth stuff i hear what your saying. the guy just didn't have the power going at the right angle for a clean takedown. it was sloppy. i'm not a grappler and i agree. it's not even an insult . .. maybe the dude was tired or anticipating what his teacher was about to do to him too much.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

. ... and it's a friggen demo. ford knows that. he wasn't calling the guy a pu ssy. he just commented on one poor technique after someone else mentioned it.

[bob10]

Doesn't all this just highlight the drawbacks of putting video clips on the web? Whatever it shows someone will see something different.

A while back I had clips of my tai chi teacher demoing dynamic push hands. All looked pretty straightforward I thought, until someone piped up about how could he possibly be "pushing people without contact" ! The guy wouldn't have it that there was, in fact, contact involved, all very strange.

So come on guys, take em for what they are worth, please let's not over-analyse?

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

wow .. i am sodrunk. i ca'telieve i can type this.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Couldn't you use quicktime? Those of us on Macs can't view embedded win movies - dangit.

I liked the first clip. Nice visuals, fun music - it looks like your teacher is striving to bridge the cultural gap from 'chinese martial arts' to just 'martial arts'.

[Crimson Phoenix]

MonkeySlap, you can download the fils and open them with the mac version of windows media player...I have done that on my G4 and it works great (dunno if WMP exists for OS9 though, I have the OSX version)...

[NafAnal]

didn't know braden's rteacher was su dong chen...

[Matt Irvin]

Sorry to bring this topic up from the depths, so to speak, but I felt I needed to give some clarification. I am currently studying with Master Su Dong Chen. I have been studying the so-called internal arts for almost two years, with 7 years of experience in various other arts. In the past year or so, I learned from Master Su privately during his brief trips to the United States. I have organized seminars, put together demonstrations, gotten the website up, and generally run around doing my best to help him make a living. Last December, my teacher Marvin Quon and Master Su requested that my school brother and I begin teaching beginner-level classes in west Los Angeles. Since then I have been giving lessons on campus at UCLA.

The first thing that I want to say about Master Su is that he is the real deal. There are a lot of “masters” out there that are not deserving of their titles, and should not even claim to be teaching combat arts. I do quite a bit of exploration in martial arts as a matter of personal interest, and I can say without exaggeration that Master Su’s level of ability is unlike anything that I have ever seen. He has an understanding of martial arts that transcends technical knowledge. It’s a part of him. He is much more than simply another underground fighter. His astounding physical combat ability, however, is overshadowed by two factors: 1) His understanding of underlying essence, and 2) his ability to communicate that understanding in the language of modern physical principles, as well as “translating” the wisdom of the old masters into comprehendible modern form. It is these two factors that allow him to do what many great martial artists cannot: efficiently pass on his knowledge and ability. (Because of that, I try to restrain myself from “standing in the shadow” of my teachers, so to speak--I prefer to speak of my personal understanding of theory and my understanding of my own level of ability. It doesn’t matter much what my Sifu can do if I can never learn it.)

With this in mind, I have to say that I am somewhat disappointed that for all the dissection of the video clips that has gone on, there has been no discussion of the informative material that is presented elsewhere on the site. The video clips are simply toys to play with—the real value, I feel, is in the progressive and logically organized martial theory. Sharing these theories—in an attempt to allow people to step beyond the self-imposed boundaries of stylistic martial arts—was the reason for creating the site in the first place. I spend a lot of time looking for informative martial arts sites online, and I have found only a small handful that have thoughtful theoretical dissertations on various subjects (Tim Cartmell’s www.shenwu.com, Bob Orlando’s www.orlandokuntao.com, and Marc MacYoung’s www.nononsenseselfdefense.com being my favorites so far—I will be e-mailing them for permission to add their sites to our Links page). Because of this, I would hope that someone out there, going through the same process, would be at least somewhat intrigued by the information available on our website.

With all of that said, I would like to address some of the points that have been raised:

1) On the issue of “wasted movement.” The point of the water-strider form demonstration is to show the application of “indirect” attacking by crossing, therefore, Master Su exaggerates his movements so that what he is doing is as clear as possible. I can personally attest the fact that Master Su has no need to “wind up” to generate power. In fact, from simply viewing the clips of him in action, there’s no way to tell just how powerful his strikes are. I often say, Master Su doesn’t hit hard; he hits deep. I feel this is accurate, because even at close range, where one cannot perform the contract/extend punches of standard striking systems (boxing, modern karate, etc) he can generate uncanny power that goes right through you. I have reached the point where I can generate a fair amount of this kind of aggregate explosive power under Controlled Conditions—I have not reached the level where it is automatic while moving quickly, as in pushing hands or sparring.

2) The issues of the multiple attackers “hesitating.” Several people were astute enough to point out that the harder you come, the harder you get hit. In addition, all of those guys have been students of Master Su’s for years, and they know what it’s like to get hit by him—it hurts. With that in mind, you can understand their hesitation. They don’t want to get drilled. I can assure you that their hesitation is in no way pre-arranged by Master Su, because he has quite a bit of experience fighting multiple attackers for real. He once told my school brother that he hadn’t fought just one person since his tournament days—when he was a teenager. He was only sort-of joking.

3) Then there’s the matter of the “sloppy takedown” attempt. Once again, the point of the demonstration was to show the counter clearly--not specifically as a “technique,” (as showing a collection of techniques is not the point of the videos) but rather as an alternative method to simply clinching and fighting strength against strength for a dominant position. This alternative method involves simultaneous attack and defense. I don’t know the level of grappling ability of the particular student in the video, but I can tell you without hesitation that Master Su can defeat skilled grapplers easily. I personally can hold my own against intermediate-level grapplers and foil most take down attempts, and I have never trained in BJJ or any other grappling system—my experience in “grappling” is limited to playing around with my BJJ friends occasionally and pushing hands, if you want to count that.

4) I believe someone pointed out that Master Su seems to be “bridging the gap” between “Chinese martial arts” and “martial arts.” That is exactly what he is trying to do. Master Su was trained in the “traditional” internal arts of Taiji Quan, Ba Gua Zhang, and Xing Yi Quan (among other things) but if you read through the site you will find NO claim to teaching those systems—in fact, they are not even mentioned outside of Master Su’s biographical timeline. The reason is that the above styles are STYLES, and therefore limited in the options available to them. Master Su’s emphasis, his passion, his life are about the essence of martial arts. All martial arts are, at their core, governed by the physical principles of the universe and the structure of the human body. Once you understand this, technical expression becomes a manner of applying those physical principles to your own body movement as effectively and efficiently as possible. To make an analogy (albeit a comparatively simplistic one) there are no separate “styles” of swinging a golf-club or baseball bat—rather than imitating the most minute details of an instructor’s form, the athletes train their body motion to generate as much hitting power as possible. The have the benefit of the knowledge of other athletes about accomplishing that task, so over the course of time they can train themselves to a high level of ability.

The practice of martial arts is likewise a matter of physical ability and expression. In this regard, one can learn a great deal about the efficient use of one’s body by observing athletics. One can also learn much from observing animals—animals, after all, instinctually operate at the utmost of their capacity as animals as a matter of survival, so it is reasonable to think that the characteristics of their movement can be applied to our own (perhaps this is why so many of the somewhat cryptic writings of the old master make reference to animals in their styles, tales, and histories…) In martial arts, a mental and physical mastery of the core principles and tactics leads to technical expression. It is for all these reasons that Master Su has named his methodology Essence of Evolution; he is not claiming to have created a “new style,” but rather seeking to express the idea that an understanding of essence enables one to adapt and evolve according to circumstance in order to triumph.

A few other minor points:

Some were poking fun at the music in the introduction clip… what can I say, it’s Japanese. This is the same country that gave us Pokemon and monster-tentacle-rape animated pornography.

Someone complained about the design of the site… I happen to think it’s really cool, actually. And it was designed by a friend of mine, in exchange for the three videos we have for sale. Let’s hear it for hook-ups. Also, the site will look better if you open it in a new window, rather than simply linking to the page with the videos: www.evolutionary-systems.com

For those of you anxious for some more “toys,” there should be some new video clips up within the next few weeks.

[Matt Irvin]

...ran out of space. Anyway...

One thing I would like to say in conclusion is that I have no illusions that I am anything other than another wanker on the internet to anyone who is reading this. That’s fair. Skepticism is healthy, as there is a lot of B.S. out there. However, I think that we have something of value, and the only way you can ever find out for yourself is to check it out. There’s two ways to do that: One, you could take a gamble with your hard-earned cash and purchase one, two, or all three of our videos. Despite the fact that the production quality is low and the narration is painful (I have prepared “fixed” transcripts of the English translations that are included with any purchase) I feel that at $100 plus shipping for all three, the videos are an excellent value for the information in them. The material is of the same level of, I guess, “linguistic intensity” as what is on the site, which means that you’re constantly discovering something new about the tiniest details. At some point we’ll be putting these videos on VCD, offering an even more affordable option if you are willing to wait.

Alternatively, if you find yourself in the Los Angeles area (though there are certainly better places to find yourself) then you are welcome to stop by one of our classes or seminars and see for yourself. This is probably the most desirable option, because as I said, there is a quality to Master Su’s ability that you just don’t get out of watching him on video alone. The times and locations of our classes are available on the site, and if you want to stop by and check it out, there’s No Charge and No Challenge—No charge because anyone from another area of the U.S. is a possible contact for future seminars, and No Challenge because we’re here to share knowledge, not massage our egos. Seminars fees are currently $65 for one day (for as long as the venue is available, or up to 8 hours) $120 for two days, and $100 for two days with early registration. Once again, I feel these prices are quite reasonable. If you were to host a seminar in another area, we would need room and board for Master Su and his mandarin-to-english interpreter/school brother Master Quon (couches and home cooked meals are fine ;) )

I hope this information has been helpful. I’m not a big fan of dealing with nonsense and pontificating on martial arts forums (Ralek, for instance, is so carefree in his willful ignorance that I'm almost convinced he is just joking around with everyone), so if you have any questions, personal attacks, or an itching desire for debate, do not hesitate to contact me personally.

Matt Irvin
matt@evolutionary-systems.com
mirvin@ucla.edu

[omegapoint]

I like what he is doing. One of the main precepts of striking, modern or traditional, is to get "angles" on your opponent. The best angle to have is one where your weapons, options and line of sight are superior to his. It's called the "rear corner" in some styles. He demonstrates good mastery of this tactic. He coulda' chosen various hand strikes and kicks, whether they be circular or more linear. I'm sure he doesn't want to really hurt his students.

Combat distance or position, called ma-ai in Japanese, is one of the most important aspects of fighting. Even that half-hearted attempt to shoot on Master Su was met with a realistic counter. Most grappling types on the street aren't gonna necessarily be trained to execute a perfect double or single-leg. Controlling the head with a half-sprawl/front foot sweep can work well against a diving tackle.

My man has some skills fo' sheezy!

[Daredevil]

Heya,

I loved the information content on the site, however .. since theory tends to be a bit ambigious when not put practise, I was left with more questions than anything. It certainly succeeded in making me curious and wanting to see how those ideas are applied. It seemed like good stuff.

The videos.. well, it's always fun to watch videos and though it's sometimes difficult to see kungfu in a video (it's better felt), there was something about the way he moved that seemed right. Heck, looks a bit like my master. :)

In fact, comparing Master Su around, I feel like he is kinda in the same category as Master David Bond Chan. There seems to be something similar in their approaches (and I'd call both progressive), in Master Su's art and the E-Chuan Master Chan is teaching. Of course, I know relatively little about both, but these are two guys I'd very much like to train with.

And taking into account that I consider my own teacher very impressive and don't usually feel like looking elsewhere since having found him, that's saying something.

I'd very much like to see more discussion about Master Su's stuff, though.

[neptunesfall]

excellent post, Matt. has to be one of the better ones i've read since i joined this board.

[Matt Irvin]

Glad I could add something useful. I consider it my responsibility to get the word about Master Su out, as he is all but unknown in this country. He has a degree of infamy in Japan thanks to a book that came out on the Top 11 "Underground" fighters in Japan, but other than that he's been up until this point one of those masters that you hear about from someone who heard about him from someone else, etc, and you have to go look for him. Now he's in one place, and he wants to teach. I highly recommend checking him out to anyone who's even a little bit curious. You won't be sorry.

[Archangel]

I watched that video and I am really wondering where the shooters forward momentum went. I saw almost no horizontal inertial displacement from the defender.

When wrestling takedown defences are employed I can see the physics behind them. A sprawl drives the energy into the ground; a ****zer redirects forward momentum. In this example, when the 2 fighters collide the shooter just stops. Where was his forward momentum transfered to?

[Chang Style Novice]

Strange question (the kind you've come to expect from me):

Matt Irvin's probably my best bet for an answer, but anyone will do:

Is Su Dong Chen of Evolutionary Systems martial arts the same Su Dong Chen that paints watercolor landscapes that bridge the gap between traditional chinese methods and contemporary western methods?

[Matt Irvin]

lol, I don't think so. I don't think Master Su paints.

[Chang Style Novice]

Thanks, Matt. I'm always interested in the intersection between fine and martial arts. Especially visual arts. And it's certainly not unknown for kungfu masters to be painters. Ya never know!

[cha kuen]

Cool clips! Thanks for letting us know!

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