Pouring TEA for sifu?

[urban tea]

I've heard about how students become disciples of sifus and would have to pour tea.

How does this go? Just get some herbal tea for both persons, bow to the sifu and drink?

[bong]

Ask Roger Hagood.

www.bambootemple.com

He has had sooooooo many Sifus! :D

[fiercest tiger]

Usually you pour 3 cups of tea. my bai shee ceramony was 3 cups of tea and other things involved as in pouring the tea across the ground to the earth god/deity, to your altar and your sifu. some style do things different. Also the sifu would do other things as in lay his hands on your head and make you do a oath type of deal. Well this is what happened to me!

FT:)

[jon]

Im always pouring tea for my sifu, he darn well drinks a LOT.
Its all about keeping the cup full and not lettting it go cold, im such a good tea boy. When you get really skilled you can portion out the tea without having none left for yourself - you get last serving :(
Infact the sign of true skill is fast one handed pouring - without any spilling, when you get that down you know your ready for bigger and better things. Like chopsticks picking up single rice grains and stuff.

Sorry im just being a moron:rolleyes:


PS
LOL at bong;)

[friday]

HANG ON!!!
what about the incense guys??? comn if its a chinese traditional ceremony its got to have some sort of incense part to it.

and u bow to Bro Gwan - wait ...i think thats for something else

anyway i still think there is an incense part to it too. but i'm not sure who u do the bow to i think its mayb sijo? founder?

hmmm...

[Helicopter]

In our tea ceremony the head of the school, burnt incense, and placed offerings on a altar with a photograph of his Sifu, and then Kow tow 'ed 3 times. We then offered oranges to our own instructors (oranges=gold/money) and made our promise and then poured a bowl of tea, half turned the bowl, and presented it. Our sifu then takes a sip to let you know that he accepts you as a student.

[firepalm]

Many years ago when I was a teen there was no tea in our ceremony, basically several of us had to cut our hands let the blood drop into a bowl of Chinese wine, incense was burnt & vows spoken (in my teacher's village dialect - to this day not sure what was said). Afterwards we went to several shops in Chinatown and stood by as our teacher collected money packets from rather unhappy looking shop keepers. Different rituals for different clubs I guess! ;)

[urban tea]

How was it back in the day? I'm talking about a few generations ago when it was hardcore and onlyl a few students practicing in a ghetto room filled with spider webs and weapons.

Any stories from the legends?

[GeneChing]

Pouring tea is a respect thing - disciple ritual or not. I've seen Sifu's fight over who has control of the tea pot (it's like those cartoon chipmunks trying to out-polite each other "after you" "no after you".)

I served as an intermediary for a disciple ritual were tea was poured. It's very similar to the marriage tea pouring ritual. My own disciple ritual was taking Buddhist vows, so we bowed to Buddha, Kwan Yin, then my master. No tea at the actual ritual, but lots of it at the following banquet (also part of the ritual.)

Much of kungfu is based on folk rituals so there is a lot of variation from school to school.

[Sui]

hi gene you seem closer to home with the tea ceromony,but can i ask this question?

who is "Kwan Yin" in relation to buddha and your si-fu?


p.s jon,i thought your si-fu would pour your tea?as your father is so rich and he needs the cash to pay for dinner?hahahahaha
or does he buy the tea[your father that is?]lol

[joedoe]

When I did it, we each held an incense stick and had to put the stick in the urn on the altar. We each then poured 3 cups of tea - one went to sifu, and one each to two nominated senior students (if sifu was at home, the tea was offered to his wife as well). Then sifu did some Buddhist chants and prayed for you, placed his hand on your head, got you up and showed you a special set that was your 'disciple set'. Everyone learned a different set.

BTW - to the person who asked, Kuan Yin is the Goddess of Mercy and is highly revered by many Chan Buddhists, particularly in the South.

[Lice]

:rolleyes:

[Sui]

BTW i didn't ask who she was,read it again,it be clearer the next time:)

lice how lousey,try to see not roll hahahaha

[jon]

Sui

How have you been my fine feathered friend?
I hope all is well and sundry?

"jon,i thought your si-fu would pour your tea?"
* Honestly, sometimes he does. My sifu is a very humble man.

"as your father is so rich and he needs the cash to pay for dinner?"
* Oh yes my family is so rich i actualy got daddy to pay so as to have sifu flown over from China. Infact my whole tuition is based around a pay per move style of learning.

Did you not learn your 'art' from your father? Im guessing that must have been tricky? Do you ever wonder if you got a full transmission (manual or auto)? Do you have any siblings? How do there hands compare with yours?

"does he buy the tea[your father that is?]"
* My dad likes to buy his own tea, he is rather English you see. I think its something in his blood. Still he more a coffee drinker these days, and one hell of a cook:D



Come now sui i expected better from you, i would have thought you would know you may need more than misdirected spite.
Nevermind i may be in YOUR neck of the woods one day, maybe we could go out for 'cha'?

[Lice]

Originally posted by Sui
BTW i didn't ask who she was,read it again,it be clearer the next time:)

lice how lousey,try to see not roll hahahaha

Sui,

Can you just keep your petty **** to their relevant threads (or better yet, private) and keep them out of perfectly good threads? Participate, by all means, but keep it civil and on topic.

[urban tea]

Lice,

Thanks for the compliment!

----------------------------------------




.........and keep them out of perfectly good threads?:D ;) :p

[Sui]

excuse me lice.who are you to tell me to keep my petty ****?hahahaha,you roll your eyes and mention my name knowing i would reply,another hypocrite.lol

urban tea,yes and as if you don't set up threads to decieve,hahahaha don't make me laugh.p.s its only a good thread if i stay off it you mean?lol

jon,hahaahaha,sometimes better is worse and worse is better.you should know buy now that your hand is still young compared to the likes of mine and you do not recieve the honour to meet my hands as a 2 faced young man.lol you are stagnant within your enlightenment,what a shame.lol

p.s i will be in your kneck of the woods sooner than you think,and i will play the coiling dragon like a musical instument.hahahahaha

pps did i hit a raw note with rich daddy?under his shadow i see......

[friday]

hmmm
what you r saying in your latest epic response is that your older? more mature? in years at least or is that experience u are referring to?

either way
why are u such a jerk?

and yes i'm talking to u Sui :)

[jon]

Sui

We have had our moments in the past so lets not ruin that now shall we?



"you should know buy now that your hand is still young compared to the likes of mine and you do not recieve the honour to meet my hands as a 2 faced young man."
* MY 'hands' may be young, no way you can call my 'art' young though. Infact dear sui i may even be able to suprise even you:eek: Then again im sure you would not be the first to hide behind your 'experience' or 'position', its all the same to me. After all i would not blame you for being a little perplexed.

Still im insulted you call me two faced, if anything ive always been very forward with you. Im offended you would draw that out of my words - nevermind my feelings are none of your concern im sure. What you want is the feeling of scanning the battlefield just before you dive in, to pick where you would like to start and antisipate where you may end up.

"you are stagnant within your enlightenment,what a shame.lol"
* As you wish sui, you know my level and im starting to get a good understanding of yours. Shame its no longer quite what i hopped, please dont feel insulted. I have access to all i could ever want and more, stagnant never felt so DARN good.
Did you ever get Bic Gim sui? Can you even handle a strait blade?
Your power is all wrong judging by your art, why do you seek such things?

"i will be in your kneck of the woods sooner than you think,and i will play the coiling dragon like a musical instument.hahahahaha"
* ROFLMAO (rolling on the floor laughing my ass off) come come now Sui...
Do you REALLY think that will scare me?
You refuse my offer to let me meet you on your own grounds yet threaten me with mine... tee hehe
You should know where to find me - most do, please feel free.
You have no need to raise stakes with me, my offer was for tea it was no threat. It kind of makes me wonder...
If im not you level, not your skill, not your match, not even in your ball park. Why on earth do you feel the need to try to make me fear you? I could almost be forgiven for wondering if you had some kind of alterior motive? Or perhaps you worried about lossing face? Either way...


"pps did i hit a raw note with rich daddy?under his shadow i see......"
* Hmm interesting observation...
Not really im afraid, i will always natrualy protect the honour of my parents and will respond if there insulted. Still your choosen insult meant nothing as it had no meaning or validity. My family is not rich, my father has nothing to do with you or my training. I have never spoken ill of your family and i only ask you do the same for me. Insulting peoples sifus or familys is in my humble opinion a low act and indicative of a feeble mind.


There need be no bad blood between us sui, paths come and go and sometimes intertwine, or fork. Often the way gets rocky and the going hard. Parties rise and fall and conflicts come and go, the only thing constant will always be change. I change sui, you have changed to. There is no need for that change to affect anything adversly unless that is your express wish.

I took my time posting this, may not make all the sence in the world and may read as convaluted or even slightly rediculous. Still imperfect things come from the heart, perfect things dont exist.

All the best sui
I hope your well
Jon

[Lice]

Sui,

I tried sending my comments privately, but you're not set up for private messages or to receive email. I don't know or care what your problem with Jon is, I'm just wondering why you feel the need to taint good threads with flames. Like I said, feel free to participate, but just do so in a constructive manner.

[Sui]

ok you've again proved you are a honourable man,how can i compete.please accept my apologies though it was in humour but i guess when the shoe is on the other foot......

but you fail to understand at all i'm afraid,our cultures collide and there is no perpective to gain.you've touched my centre but to touch it again would be foolish of me.

never the less don't take it to heart what i've wrote to you and i won't insult you again and thats my word.

sorry jon take care,maybe there will be a time maybe there won't not in the uk thats for sure.
how rightuose you are,who am i but your servant.

sui

the rest of you keep dreaming:D

[The Willow Sword]

pouring tea ON sifu?

you know there is an african tribe that spits in your face with this alchoholic drink as a blessing and sign of respect.

sigh i wished i couldve done that.


MRTWS

[urban tea]

The movie "A Big Fat Greek Wedding" talks about how spitting on someone gives that person good luck.

When the bride walked down the aisle, everyone was spiting on her. The greeks I mean.

The other family was shocked.

[GeneChing]

My master is a Shaolin Monk. My disciple cermony was held in a private chamber at the Songshan Shaolin Temple. Kwan Yin was on the altar, beneath Buddha, not at all uncommon in Chinese temples. Kwan Yin is usually positioned at the back of the three Buddha hall, facing towards the dharma practice hall. To me, that symbolizes compassion, compassion that must prevail over your practice. Perhaps we need a little more of that here, eh?

[urban tea]

Hi Gene,

You mention that your teacher is a monk from Shaolin. I want to ask a few questions if possbile. How long did you train there?
How did you get that hookup? Did you have to pay a lot of money? Did he do wushu or traditional? How old is he?

I am not intending to disrespect anyone . I find it interesting that we can still find monks to train with somewhere in this world today.

Thank you

[fiercest tiger]

Do you train with Wing Lam sifu?

FT

[The Willow Sword]

Wing Lams crew? i thought he was.

MRTWS

[Sui]

hi gene thanks for answering the question of your abilities.are you asking me to be more compasionate or asking me to be compassionate?
compassion as the whole is a perspective that none can desire i find.also does kwan yin not [in history]wage war and defense in her beliefs?

as for now i believe i am singled out so what of that?should i yeild should i be none political so as not to be a "jerk"?as you can there is a resolve between jon and i,is there not a lesson to be learnt from the 4 noble truths?

your pawn i'm sure
sui.

p.s i pour tea to Gon yin/a guw poor most mornings does that make me a servant of compassion?

[grogan]

In Australia we do this a little different ours starts off with me opening a 1 litre bottle of Northern Territory Bitter (Beer) and then poring a small amount of beer into the students cups leaving about 750ml for the Sifu.

We then quickly swig ours and then look towards our Sifu who starts skulling the rest of the beer while we chant "Who's your Daddy, Who's your Daddy" until he finishes drinking (he must dring the whole bottle in one go).

When he has finished he usually burps and then screams out "I'm your Daddy!" then we all cheer and headbutt each other.

Drinking Tea is gay.

[tri2bmt]

Grogan has the best ceremony i've heard. :D What style do you do?

[GeneChing]

Urban Tea: I have trained at Shaolin several times, usually going a month at a time. Also I have an extensive background in Bei Shaolin, so it was easier for me to penetrate Shongshan Shaolin. However, it's pretty easy for a foreigner to become an honorary disciple in China, just be dedicated. Just by going to China to train, you give your master great face. It's a big journey. My bai see at my ceremony was not very expensive, cheaper than lessons really.

My master Shi Decheng is in his late thirties. His focus is traditional, but he is competant in modern wushu like pretty much every certified teacher in China is nowadays.

FT & WS: I am Wing Lam's Head Shaolin Instructor and helped him found his company, authoring many of his videos and importing many of the Shaolin goods that he carries. I haven't been teaching for him for the past few months since my limited time has not allowed me to do so. It was either train or teach. Lately I've been training with Sifu Tony Chen. But Sifu Lam is an honorable man so desptie my absence, I retain my position. His head Hung Gar instructor was honored with his picture on the kwoon wall for over a decade after he left. Last I saw, it was still up there.

Sui: Compassion by defination means "to suffer with." Am I asking you to be more compasionate or asking you to be compassionate? Yes. I ask this of everyone, especially myself. I have done nothing to "single you out." Perhaps the others may have, but if you "suffer with them" perhaps you might glean the reason. Pouring tea makes you a servent of tea, and perhaps as the chinese say, "cha chan yi qi" (tea zen are one) so I could see it as an act of compassion. We certainly need as much compassion as we can get these days, so I'll allow any little drop.

grogan: Drinking tea is not gay. Take if from me, I used to live in San Francisco. You don't even know what gay means if you think it has something to do with tea :eek:
But I think I'm going to do my next discipel ceremony aussie style. NT bitter, eh? Sounds tasty. :p

[Sui]

thank you again gene,there are many questions for you shy to the members of this board and keep your feelings to yourself untill now.thank you again.
would you say compassion is to empathaze,as i get this through your explanation.then why would you pour tea to buddha and kwan yin if you are bai-si to your si-fu?which leads me to yet another intresting question,who's idea was it for you to bai lay gung[bai the si-fu in question]?

i will try to be more compassionate but there are some who mis-interpretate it as "merci",which i believe yours gene is closer.am i not being compassoinate by writing this statement?

sorry by your advice to "suffer with them" are you saying i should join to which they suffer?if you are then i can't make sense of that for "i suffer myself".

sui

[grogan]

Originally posted by tri2bmt
Grogan has the best ceremony i've heard. :D What style do you do?

If I was to say the class would get to crowded so I will refrain.

[Sui]

his style,lol well there are more gays that drink beer than they drink tea so what does that tell ya.hahahahaha "olrighty then"
grogan,its a joke so keep your knickers on,i don't have anything against gays i use to be one myself.hahahahaha but 100 percent reformed.

[Sui]

grogan is your style by any chance"back-door kuen"hahahaha sorry mate couldn't resist.i have nothing better to do than to think what style you do.

sui.

[Rolling_Hand]

Sui,

When the wild bird cries its melody from the treetops,
Its voice carries the message of the Tao.

"Tien Dai, Day Dai, Yan Dai, Tien Yan Hap Yat"

Rolling_Hand

[GeneChing]

Hmm, keep my feelings to myself, hmm. I don't really agree with that. I avoid some topics out of professional courtesy, stuff like who's a fake and what-not. Of course I have my personal opinions on that, but I often have to restrain myself there. However, I like to be open about my feelings, so much so it has given my a tai chi hippy persona here. :p

Anyway on to your questions, let's see...
Empathy and sympathy are part of compassion surely, but not synonymous. In Buddhism, compassion arises from the understanding of one of our basic tenets - that all life is suffering. You don't have to "join to which they suffer" - you're already there. It's the realization of shared suffering that is important, that we are all connected. Once you see that we're all in it together, and couple this with the notion of karma, you do you best to stop that cycle through compassion. In essence, it is a vehicle of transformation.

Can you be compassionate by posting? Well, that's really not the way it works. I remember a friend of mine who talks of going to Shaolin for a "spiritual boost." It's a really silly notion that demonstrates a lack of understanding of spirituality. You can't be spiritual/compassionate in a single example an expect that to redeem unspiritual/uncompassionate actions. The only absolution comes with constant practice.

Now I didn't pour tea in my ritual because that was not part of my ritual. I bowed as a gesture of subserviance to my master and what the deities symbolize. And I asked my shifu to become his disciple though a traditional intermediary.

[urban tea]

If you expect to go to a place for a spiritual boost, it will not come. YOu have to search without searching. Many times I expect a spiritual boost when I had dinners with important people and it did not come.

You don't need to go to any place for a spiritual experience. Everything you need is right around you. Your backyard, your home, your people or your community. It's a matter of you living in the "now" and just being "awake" to all that's going on around you.

It's just that people don't realize that. It's like a fish who has been swimming in water. He doesn't know that he's actually in water because it surrounds him all the time, procvided that the fish is a male.

[CLOUD ONE]

Nice post and what have you been putting in your tea?

''If you expect to go to a place for a spiritual boost, it will not come''.

The operative word there is to 'expect' although going back to your roots could be enlightening.

So in your experience does pouring tea to Sifu mean anything to you? Why is it that most W.C schools never have 'bai si'?
Did Yip Man's students bai si?

[GeneChing]

More so it's the notion that spirituality is something you can boost like a caffeine boost from a shot of espresso. Actually I do believe that pilgrimages to sacred places and meetings with wise masters can deepen your spirituality, but I wouldn't phrase it like a "boost." Perhaps it's semantics. Then again, perhaps it's essential.

[Sui]

hi rolling hand long time no cantonese?it must be getting better.
but yuans lets just say he's "ga-lay gai"w/c and gets better.lol but hey thanks for the reminder to which heavan is only tomorrow away and good morning to you.:)


gene,oh so you share your feelings?"professional courtesy" what the hell is that please teach me?is to "restrain" to hold back the flow of things to come?as a publisher should you not voice your opinion,it may make the articles "true" so that pple can relate to them?sorry if it sounds like i'm telling you how to do your job,i'm just asking,i would not be so rude as you are my host.
but does your "tai chi hippy persona" comes from the west,there are other perpectives you know?

so compassion is the bigger picture i see?therefore empathy and sympathy are joined in seperation?no way totally disagree gene and i'd be a fool to agree.why?maybe b/c you are translating a chinese character to english verbs?i could ask what other words join to compassion[seperatly]to make it whole?

"that all life is suffering."so you understand this basic tenet?come on gene thats abit nieve don't you think?even a feeling of this wouldn't draw you to that understanding and worst still there is no proof to that of all is suffering?but never the less a question beyond death hath no answer?
no way is it that, i would say[from my parent's teaching]to be indavidual will break the karma and to connect to buddha is to be buddha?ego must have something to do with it?i'm sure,but i must reconise that ego first and formost..............

spirituality?hmmmm an illusion maybe[bic gimm]could this word be associated to us gene?not to jon and i for power or power traferance down a blade is the little brother to spirituality i'm sure.
more or less has no bearing!

but this thread is pouring tea,does it have to be litteral,as you show of course not.
so are you saying it was your idea?are you saying it just took place or are you saying he would not allow you to pour tea?come don't be shy i won't be rude to you:)


hear,hear cloud,yip man had students in china before leung sheung etc,did they bai shi some say yes some say no.but there is on his true birthday that some go to his grave to pay homage the "tao way"hmmm makes you think doesn't it?;)

like i said gene no more or less so no "boost" or "deepen" only that it is!what????

[GeneChing]

OK, let me see if I can respond to your comments in their order of presentation. I'm having a bit of trouble understanding your grammer, so if I misinterpret something, my apologies.

On professional courtesy, well first off, I'm not in the business of exposing fakes. That is a subjective call, relative to the general community. We try to avoid the negative press and focus on the positive stuff. There is already enought negative stuff about martial arts, so we don't air dirty laundry since that would only increase the negativity. I voice my opinion, but I try to focus only on the positive stuff.

The Tai Chi Hippy thing is from another thread on the main forum. It's sort of a running inside joke. :p

You lost me on your compassion comment. What is your point there?

As for you ego comment, ego is a following precept, after suffering? That's the delusion that must be penetrated to alleviate suffering. Unless we are using the Freudian defination of ego, then it's something different entirely. But in regards to compassion, if the root word 'passion' means 'to suffer' and adding the 'comp' makes it a shared burden, and if all is suffering,
then compassion is an acknowledgement that we are all in it together. Once you get that concept, there's no reason to be rude or shy.

I like your "power traferance down a blade is the little brother to spirituality" comment but I don't have the fogiest about what you mean.

And back on pouring tea, I pour tea for anyone I respect casually, friends, relatives, masters, even strangers, it's just good manners. But it wasn't part of my disciple ritual. However, whenever I eat with my master, of course I pour tea.

Lastly, boost and deepen could certainly be viewed as semantics, but I'm a writer so forgive me my semantics. At least I punctuate :p

[diego]

All is suffering is just common sence. you may be the richest man of the most elite status and basically noone can **** with you..and you care less about some bum on a sidewalk in nigeria;...well you had better care because in some way such as say his kid may grow poor and rob your kid, so by you not caring and bieng of a welloff existence...eventually in the cycle your inaction will lead to actions that will pull in suffering to the seeds of your actions!.

in example a qoute from rapper The Rza: all you with money//better watch for the money hungry-Straight up!.


"that all life is suffering."so you understand this basic tenet?come on gene thats abit nieve don't you think?even a feeling of this wouldn't draw you to that understanding and worst still there is no proof to that of all is suffering?but never the less a question beyond death hath no answer?
no way is it that, i would say[from my parent's teaching]to be indavidual will break the karma and to connect to buddha is to be buddha?ego must have something to do with it?i'm sure,but i must reconise that ego first and formost..............

[Sui]

"All is suffering is just common sence."oh really who ever you are?what about the few who deny the fact that they suffer eg majority of christians?do they still suffer?if so to whom????


gene,if you don't know then you don't know,but thanks for you explanations to the best of your ability and also i dare say that you are not voicing your opinion now?
if you are lost then aquire a compass from your"master".

either way keep strong and practice well,your freind

sui.

p.s as for my grammar,thanks i will try:)

[GeneChing]

Well, with the contribution of my dear comrade Diego, this is quickly turning very koanic (rhymes w/colonic, for good reason.) Philosophy is often best discussed as such, especially on the forum. Philosophy is the talk on a cereal box.

If you don't know, then you don't know, but do you know you don't know? If you don't know you don't know, then you might think you know. Or might not, I don't know. I know what I know, if you know what I mean.

So Diego, hitting w/yo RZA fist, eh? Take my Emma strike! :D

[ShaolinTiger00]

Gene, - dirty smelly deadhead freak and we love him for that.

ROFL @ fighting over tea pot. I've got to tell a story.

There was a large celebration one evening as my sifu's oldest student was made a sifu himself. The school sihings (myself inc.) were sitting around a large table awaiting dinner. As soon as the waitress put the pot on the table there were 4 hands on the very hot pot each refusing to let go. It was like a scene from the cartoons featuring the polite chipmunks. "Oh no sir, I insist, no no after you.. Allow me please" as we each tried to muscle the pot to our hand. After about a minute of rising voices and gleaming eyes, Sifu finally Ordered us to let go and he would pour the tea. My burnt hand was secetly very happy.. :o

Finally a truly kungfu conversation.

[diego]

Originally posted by Sui
"All is suffering is just common sence."oh really who ever you are?what about the few who deny the fact that they suffer eg majority of christians?do they still suffer?if so to whom????


\

Agian..:) 1more time

im talking about common sence and you have to bring up those christians!!!

unless your just trolling gene il break it down agian, No matter how happy you are someone isnt you better try to help him because he might sneak up and make you less happy!.

take away the historys of bhuddism and look at the soldierly knowledge of dealing with those in this lifecycle.
in reality when i look at the history of bhuddism and all it talks about i see lessons in mathematical social studies...thier is alot of great Outlook within its scriptures wheras if you havent been in the dirt and rose above the mountains you may be a tightass snob or in need of getting out of the dirt...i see bhuddism from a real yin/yang perspective!.

ie

MAY I ENTER INTO THE EONS TO COME,
AND MAY I DO IT IN BUT ONE INSTANT.
I WILL ENTER INTO ALL TIMES EONS
WHOSE MEASURE IS THE SPACE OF A INSTANT

IN THE SPACE OF A SINGLE INSTANT, MAY I SEE
THE BLISS LORDS OF THE THREE TIMES, THOSE LION-HUMANS;
MAY I ALWAYS ENGAGE IN THEIR
SPHERE OF ACTIVITY
THROUGH THE POWER OF THE ILLUSORY LIBERATIONS.

ALL THE PLANETARY ARRAYS OF THE THREE TIMES
SHALL BECOME MANIFEST ON A SINGLE ATOM.
IN THAT WAY IN ALL DIRECTIONS WITHOUT EXCEPTION
I SHALL ENTER INTO THE ARRAYS OF THE VICTORS

taken from shantidevas bodhisattva vow

now break that up into rap-science

the first paragraph a nerd would question ' well how can you go into all times eons in a instant= because **** my word spreads long like rza said about wutang song spreads long like christmas carol!!!...Or -IN THE SPACE OF A SINGLE INSTANT, MAY I SEE
THE BLISS LORDS OF THE THREE TIMES, THOSE LION-HUMANS;

agian the annoying ***** would sneer what is a lion-human..i would say you child are a hyena in the sea of life..those who move out of righteousness are akin to a lion in our circle of life!.
thiers so much to it, and you have to understand some schools may not know thier full history so thier meditations are like prayers oppossed to affirmations wich are threaded for the practitioner to release insights etc etc


Gene, i havent read much on Shi Yan Ming lately and Shi GouLin whats thier current situation?, are you still in contact with yanming if so find out if the rza still trains with him...just curious because i know wu is going through change and inner-turmoil within thier camp/ they havent been on the kungfu vibe fully in awhile, do you have any news?:cool:

[GeneChing]

ST: Hey I'll either knock your down with my Shaolin fist or keel you over laughing with my deadly forum-song-quote-technique. I prefer the latter, I woun't break a nail.
That's a classic KF tea story. Good thing your Sifu took control or mayhem might have broke loose.

DG: Me? Trolling? Nah, I do that on other people's forums. I must say I resent the notion that I'm not trying to help, especially since I keep this forum running (yesterday's crash excepted.) Just think, without this forum, all our members and lurkers would be on the streets and that would be bad. It's my contribution to society. ;)

As for Shi Yanming, I haven't talked to him since my last trip to NY. I hope to see in him in November in CT. I don't know what's up with the RZA now, but I'll let you know if I hear anything. I've been a little out of the Wu loop - what's the troubel?

As for Shi Guolin, I saw him at our 10 Year Anniversary Gala Benefit. Unfortunately I didn't have a chance to talk with him at any length because I was so busy, but I did have a long late night chat with his disciple after it was over.

[diego]

well where to start...you heard about odbs trials and tribue's on cnn right, i guess thier main trouble was growing up in the hood then hitting oil so like most rockstars = Drugs

basically the rap game changed and went pop and they burnt out so they are not getting much respects in the rap world like they did...and ohboy did they= how many rappers are ft in kf mags?

also it is true if wu didnt come out in 93 jackie chan may have not blown up like he did in the us with rumble in the bronx etc...rza brought kf to the mtv world wheras kf has always been a staple in HIPHOP with the original breakdancers copying bruce lee and just the whole cheesy kf flick era of the 70s wich led to acts like bruce leroy vs shonuff " you remember that the black bruce lee with a afro fighting the warlord of brooklyn, lol...What was that movie called? it came out in the 80s!.

yah so rza just built on what bruce lee popularized and just put a 90s edge on it but that bruce lee vibe has always been in HIPHOP like his nunchuk pose is the classic bboy grab your nutts and spit rhymes stance...etc

i think wu will come back on top its just the problem was the other members are not genius like rza is, he is the only HIPHOPPER to be as good a rapper as he is a producer wheras most of wu can only rap,...so rza hit burn out and they legacy started to falter!.

they better come back thats like finding out bruce lee died if i was alive back then:D

Also, i thought you might have misread that i meant if he isnt trolling you,...i just stumbled on this post and what sui wrote made me think troll so i posted!:cool:
If you remember to ask about rzas training please do, also i think only he and the wu rapper Ghostface Killah were the only ones to train fullon with Yanming!?.
peace

also the grammer is shorthand type= SO DEAL WIDDIT:p ;)

[fiercest tiger]

What about pouring CONGNAC for your sifu is that like a tea ceramony but with a alcohol problem?:)

[diego]

you can use alcphol but then do you really want to learn applications from him after;) ?.

[Tao-Yin-Lee]

Diego,

If you mention the Lion in any form literal or theriomorphic in connection with Buddhism, then, you are getting close to the heart of what Buddhism is,

Check out the 'Discourses of the Buddha on the Lion's Roar':

http://www.tibetankungfu.com/new_page_7.htm

and

http://www.tibetankungfu.com/the_lion_symbol.htm

As a 'Hop-Gar' man, you should really know about this, you probably do...

Tao

[Sui]

gene,true though your statements are,to know etc.but you still haven't answerd "the" question who's idea was it to bai lay si-fu?

as it will never be apart of me "to surrender"as my culture see no bearing,for there is always "tomorrow"[another time gene]:) and wars arn't won on the battlefield nor are they lost in many other perspectives?so i will leave you to wallow in your own ignorance.compassion will find you not the other way round,and when she hits you,you will fall to your knees.

be well gene

sui


diego
with all you have written,still you fail to show "all suffers".you can quote and quote till your nose bleeds the only one that suffers is you.you are not god and niether buddha to know.like i said if in denial to suffer eg christians you keep banging your head on a stone wall.

[diego]

Steve, thanks for the links!.:cool:


sui have you read bhuddism were you thier when bhudda gave his discourses!...like i said take out the history and understand the positive reality bhuddhists seek and the statement is not that confusing. why does siddarthas statement that all is suffering have to be looked at as a universal law inwich moses left out when he was blazing ganja atop a cliff writing graffitti.

its a principle to understand not something that needs to be placed in a petrie dish and looked at through a microscope


are you dense, you may feel good right now but a bum may kill you for your wallet to buy drugs tommorrow,...Wheras you could have given him some extra cash when you passed him as usual on your daily route

now what bhudda is saying in 500bc if everyone gave bums extra cash eventually noone would be hungry hence no more suffering wheras agian you may feel good but in reality all is suffering

Tommorrow you may be in pain, its all relativity...and if you want to be a goof how you know in guatamas time not everyone even the richest man didnt suffer from a canker...so you should reflect not just analyze and chatter!

you tend to play yourself@!

[Sui]

come on diego,don't be like that?just because you can't prove it,theres no need to suffer?all i'm saying is we as in i only can see suffering on how we experience it and not by reading some-one elses translations.eg to whom we suffer to whom they suffer.you are not to know,and why put anything to one side?to make you understand it better???don't be a sheep,and tend your flocks,the weather-man is often wrong.

sui

[diego]

that would be great if we were talking about somebody besides bhuddist theory...your all over the place and all i can assume is since your limited thunking..can not ingest the basic principle of bhuddism then your prolly having trouble understanding what im saying!; when they let you out that place your in maybe once you have readjusted to society you will understand common sence and not what ever pretty pictures you like to paint reality with!.
chow

and you are a idiot so on this im done!.

[diego]

for a second i will lie to myself and dignify your post

bhudda is talking about worldpeace maybe you like having bums take your wallett because maybe you were a thief and in some twisted way you get off bieng hit with karma



i only can see suffering on how we experience it and not by reading some


Ever heard of free will and keep to your self!...how does you bieng impervious to your kid bieng robbed relate to the reality he shouldnt be robbed, and bhudda tells us if you gave the bum a twenty the day before he wouldnt be jonesing for heroin and you and your friend would have had a good conversation passing through that block!.

stop reading your little magik books duke!.

[diego]

Sui i read one of your posts...Why did i think you were a troll:confused:

sorry about that, tho i still think your goofy and my points still stand and in this convo your onsome alester crowly slash daoist bull**** relating to your questioning on bhud's first point about waking up through compassion!.

Now im done:p

[Sui]

just one question that all you've wrote leads to:

is BUDDHA;GOD or equal to that fact?????

sui

[GeneChing]

Diego - Sorry to hear the about Wu. They had a hard time sustaining a tour - too big of an entourage. I spent some time backstage with RZA and Wu about a year ago, and the drug scene was pretty tame, especially in comparison to some of the other bands I've seen.
And I did misinterpret your troll post. Sorry. Musta been the shorthand. Next time I'll read you with a phat beat blarin' - maybe it'll make more sense ;)

FT - I'm not into cognac, but it's only an alcohol problem if you miss the cup.

Sui - I htought I did answer you - I asked to be my master's disciple, he did not ask me. That's usually the way it happens, but not always. I did ask through a traditional intermediary if that makes any difference.

If your looking for proof of faith, perhaps you better examine your faith in proof. Proof is not always the answer. Just look at the Simpson case or the last presidential election.

You say it is not your way to surrender, but then bid farewell with some trite parting shot and well wishes. Surrender to the fact that you have to come back with another shot since your point is left unmade, unresolved. That is your burden. Fail to do so and you fall into my trap. Maybe wars aren't won on battlefields. Maybe you should expand your defination of battlefields to encompass motivations beyond you own. :o

[diego]

Originally posted by Sui
just one question that all you've wrote leads to:

is BUDDHA;GOD or equal to that fact?????

sui

I dont know= maybe


but we can look at it like this...how many people were made nicer after studying bhuddism...lets be simple and say a million but obviously in 2500 years the number is greater...but lets say a million people were effected by his teachings and not only were they nicer they made people around them nicer



so if bhudda was god is irrelevent as from a dao perspect you could say you are your own bhudda but its nothing because have your insights effected change for 2500 years!.
peace

[diego]

funny **** im in the library right now and im next to the childrens section and the librarians are singing to the kids, :p they onsome bhuddist **** talking about THE MORE WE GET TOGETHER THE HAPPIER WE WILL BE

LOL, thought that was funny...im scanning this thread and they just started singing that!..?

[Tao-Yin-Lee]

Diego,

FWIW, according to the Buddha's deathbed sermon, there is no external savior, and his disciples must look to themselves for their own salvation. Buddhism doesn't (in its original form) concern itself with metaphysical questions. Belief in a creator God does not appear in the Buddha's teachings.

"Suffering" or as otherwise interpreted "attachment", "desire", "worldliness" etc is taken as fundamental for the human condition - hence 'universal'.

Prince Siddhartha Gautama, also known as Sakyamuni Buddha -'The Sage of The Sakyas' is the first recorded 'Historical Buddha', the term Buddha meaning 'Awake' or 'Enlightened'.

The Buddha's message is containmed in the 4 noble truths, the 8 fold path of liberation, and the seeking of refuge in the 3 Jewels:
Buddha, Dharma and Sangha.

Three major 'Yana's' (vehicles) have developed: Hinayana (lesser or narrower vehicle) Mahayana (greater or broader vehicle) and Vajrayana (diamond-indestructable vehicle). Vajrayana (Tantrism)is Indian in origin but developed onwards in Tibet where it is known as 'Dorje'.

The 'deities' of Tibetan Vajrayana Tantric Buddhism are not seen as external but as aspects of the mind to be worked with for transformative purposes.

The 'Lion's Roar' as described in the Buddha's Discourses on the Lion's Roar (Lotus Sutra) is at the very heart of Buddhism, and its subsequent understanding in Tibet led to the naming of the National Martial Art of Tibet as "Senge Ngwa!" (Han: Si-Ji-Hao) - The Lion's Roar!

[diego]

Tao, i know you were a practising bhuddist years ago. Humbely i am curiuos how much knowledge on tibetan bhuddism you have?, also im curious what are the strongest say points between the three bhuddist styles you mentioned wich grew from siddarthas discourses from a western scientists perspective, etc...like the schools that split and grew after 500bc what is the gold behind them as a whole!?...this is what is curious to me "but im not strictly about bhuddism as im sure i have mentioned...they just seem like friendly people"

I was given a copy of essential tibetan bhuddism years ago but did not really get into it, but strangely last week i pulled it out and the page i turned to is the bhodisatva qoute i posted to sui...just another perfect coincidence or karma depends whos Watching...:) like the librarians singing!.
it will take awhile for me to get into my tibetbhuddism book but i would definatly appreciate any insights you can add to its symbolism///plus i guess its part of the course like essential reading bieng a practitioner of TLR and all:cool:


Check your emial tonight about those videos...im still trying to find out what format my vcr is!?:D

[Tao-Yin-Lee]

Diego,

About Tibetan Buddhism, I sought guidance about this in connection to Tiebtan martial arts from the office of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, as a result, a very detailed and inclusive project is underway - which you will know about from the web site.

Regarding the three Yana's each have their spokespersons.
It is conventional in some Tibetan circles to say that they are a progression: Hinayana, Mahayana, Vajrayana (Dorje/Tantrism).

Nevertheless if the 4 Noble Truths, The Eight Fold Path of Liberation and the Three Jewels are 'there' then Buddhism is 'there' too.

His Holiness has said that the Buddha's Dharma is authentically served by any religion or belief system whose precepts and practices essentially mirror the 4 Noble Truths and the 8 fold Path.

It is therefore entirely possible to do this as a Christian (of whatever denomination), as a Hindu, a Moslem and so on.

His Holiness excludes no ethical path from fulfilling the Dharma.

Some Buddhists would not accept this, just as there are differences of opinion or perspective in any field - this martial one is a good example.

You mention Western Science, that is not excluded from His Holiness's perspective.

The Dorje Yidam (Tibetan Tantric Meditations and Visualizations) are very useful methods of transformation and equivalents exist in many cultures and traditions.

If you are thinking of your Hop-Gar in relation to Tibetan Buddhism, certain things need to be understood, the absolute and central importance of the 'Lion's Roar!' and precisely just what this is in Tibetan Tantrism, and its link not only to the Buddha's Dharma but also historically to the Buddha's family and clan. It is a forgotten treasure of Tibet - the Lion's Roar, and just as they have essentially kept the heart of Buddhism they have kept too their Lion's Roar!

Si-Ji-Hao (Han) is Tibetan, it belongs to them, as Senge Ngwa! and from them, thru Han China, to the world.

[Sui]

gene sorry you still haven't;who's"IDEA" was it not who aked such and such?

to me gene budhism is not a faith,to you maybe thats why you ppl have problems to which direction you choose in martial arts.there has alway been tao in kung fu but to say budhism in martial arts is just a bit canny.

just because i say bye does not mean i surrender.what kind of philosophy is up your sleave gene?
when i aim to miss i expect you to acknowledge,for you can't take the target from reading tomany books.
points are only moments of time there is never a resolve,who taught you that there is?well who ever it was needs to be shot.
sorry but its not my responsiblty to motivate beyond my own therefore how can it be a burden and as for your traps they are merly illussions for the intelect not for a commoner like myself.

yet you yawn gene as if you know,greatness is your burden in others perspective,correct me if i'm wrong,and make a point out of that if you can?

sui,

tommorrow is a morning away:)

[urban tea]

I'll throw this into the mix. Your soul is God. You are the Buddah. When you reach a certain level in spirituality you do not need to ask anyone, study any books because all the answers are within you.

You are the God. (Not to sound insane)


About WuTang,

Their first album is good. Everything after is good at all. Occasionally they have a good song here and there but for the most part, they fell off.

Similar to Eminem. His early material was awesome but today's songs just aren't the same.

[Tao-Yin-Lee]

Urban Tea

Nice sentiment and no doubt heartfelt.

In strict Buddhist terms, however, becoming a Buddha by realizing the Buddha Nature within yourself, isn't becoming 'God' even with a small 'g'.

Buddhist teachings have proliferated much since the original discourses and Dharma by the Buddha himself. Dependent of Yana (vehicle) and culture - e.g. India, Tibet, China, Japan, Thailand, Burma, the West etc 'gods' of various kinds and in various forms have sometimes been introduced, but, the original teachings by Siddhartha Gautama himself had no such things.

He was quite direct in saying that their is no external savior and a creator God was not discussed.

Buddhism separates from its immediate roots in Hinduism in this regard.

The 'gods' and deities of Tibetan Buddhism owe much to Bon-Po the shamanistic religion of Tibet, ante the arrival of Buddhism. Much of Bon-Po's pathenon was incorporated into Tibetan Buddhism by assimilation to projections of the mind, i.e. imago's to be worked with in a transformative sense by the adept (e.g. as in Tantric Yidam's). During the crossover period of religion, many Bon-Po deities were 'transformed' into protectors of the new Buddhist faith.

Buddhism, has, despite denials by some, changed according to its host culture right from the off. So, some postulate deities, gods etc in a like manner to other religions. Not so in the original teachings.

[GeneChing]

I still can't understand what you are trying to say. Can anyone help interpret for me?

There is faith in Buddhism, just as there is faith in anything heuristic. Part of the Tao embraces Buddhist beliefs - the three are one is fundamental. So to say "there has alway been tao in kung fu but to say budhism in martial arts is just a bit canny" is odd, but then, I'm not sure what you mean by "canny" so it's hard for me to be sure.

What kind of philosophy is up my sleeve? Why it's my heart and I wear it on my sleeve. :p

"greatness is your burden in others perspective" is a fine point. But I would alter it from greatness to "grammer." The only way I got to my position was from being able to write a cohesive sentence (present one doesn't count.) That's quite a
'kung' in kungfu.