why chi sao

[ChocolateDoggy]

i noticed wing chun practioners focus on chi sao a lot. i know this is to develop better sensitivity, timing, etc, but still, why do it? Can't you get all these benefits and more from sparring? (from what i know you can develop excellent sensitivty using sparring). and sparring is as real as you can get for actual fighting even if the dangerous moves are't aloud. Sorry if this happens to be an ignorant question, i didn't mean it to. thanks.

[PHILBERT]

Ironic, I am talking to a friend right now on AOL and trying to find a post Watchman made a long time ago on the main forum. And I found this, his words.


The purpose of chi sau is...

...to learn how to take complete control of your opponent.

[ChocolateDoggy]

hey how can chi sao teach u ccomplete control over ur opponent?

[PHILBERT]

By practicing it, you learn proper hand work, footwork, kicks, etc. In doing so you learn to redirect your opponent's energy, causing him/her to loose balance. When redirecting you can control your opponent.

[OdderMensch]

Can't you get all these benefits and more from sparring? (from what i know you can develop excellent sensitivty using sparring).

I'm curious how you know this? FWIK it would be near impossible to learn sensetivity and sticking from sparing, without a very good idea of what is was from chi sao practice. Does your school teach single sticking hand?

I waa able to wait till I had some skill at double rolling arms & chum kui and the benifit has been great in sparing. Sparing has helped my distance skills, dealing with abnormal & unfamiliar attacks and shown me the danger of an angry near-wild opponent. Without my limited skill at footwork, sensetivity & WC tactics I would be a large slowmoveing target.


ok well at my wing chun school sparring is one of the last things we learn, after we get good at all the other basic stuff. so i thought i probably won't be able to defend myself well until at least 2-3 years or so later, but we do a lot of chi sao.. i'm just wondering, can you be a good fighter by doing chi sao.

this is a comment you made on another thread that may be relevant.

"all the other basic stuff" is your kung fu

do you think that you can't defend yourself if you don't spar? Who are you defending yourself against? do kickboxers roam your streets at night?

you don't even need Wing Chun to defend yourself. You need awareness, knowledge and confidence. Full out WC seems a bit overkill for all but the most severe of situations.

You don't need to know chi sau to fight. You don't need to spar to fight, it just shows you some usefull skills for fighting, and lets you see what it's like to have another human attack you.

You do need chi sau as a "laboratoy" for devolping your WC.I'm told Yip man once said "without chi sao there is no wing chun"

[TjD]

chi sau trains you for that instant in a fight when you use your wing chun

that instant is all you need, if your chi sau is good enough

[{i^(]

And a question, I guess:

"without chi sao there is no wing chun" could be taken to mean, as suggested, that without this training you have no wing chun (agreed) and also to mean that in a fight there is no wing chun being used if there is not a crossing of hands. We aren't TKD & longfist. Thoughts on that?

[old jong]

Chi sau is as important to Wing Chun as going to the ground to BJJ!
It just take more times and practice in Wing Chun to realise it! ;)

[williamsremo]

The reason WC places so much importance on chi sao is that WC is best used in BRIDGE CONTACT with the opponent. My Sifu has written an article on this subject that should be in the next issue of KungFu QiGong Mag. WC is a close range system. The WC fighter creates a bridge between himself and the opponent. Once this is established the hand positions will be pretty much the same as in chi sao.... Both hands outside of the opponents....Both hands inside the opponents.....or one hand inside, one hand outside. These are the hand relationships trained in chi sao. From these positions, when movement is made by the opponent, you will react due to the training in chi sao. It is at this range that sensitivity, forward pressure and trapping skills come into play.

[Rolling_Hand]

quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------
The purpose of chi sau is...

...to learn how to take complete control of your opponent
----------------------------------------------------------------

The purpose of Chi Sau is...

...to learn how to slow down of your opponent.

[Lindley57]

Choc Doggy,

You are new to the Wing Chun world so it is a good question "why so much focus on Chi Sao?" The other answers are very good.

As you move forward into your Kung Fu training you should keep in mind the famous Bruce Lee saying "use no limit as limit", which means that you want to train and learn without fixing permanent meaning to anything and allow yourself to be forever evolving and creative.

Chi Sao is a designed exercise for Wing Chun practicioners. It allows us to work on specific ideas, techniques, and principles of the system at a pace. It is where we can train under a "stressful" environment so that we can study its opposite, relaxation (amongst other attributes). It is also an environment for us to analyze and study. We often refer to it as "the laboratory".

Although Chi Sao has several developmental stages, it is truly never completed. It is a journey which one strives to improve but is always learning new things. This is because Wing Chun is a complete system, where your "whole body" supports your techniques. This is not so easily learned and this is why we all need "lots and lots of Kung Fu".

Someone mentioned in a prior forum that Kung Fu was originally created by people whose daily lives where training to fight for their lives. Thus, those of us today who do not have to do this must take advantage of every opportunity to train and train correctly. Practice does not make perfect - perfect practice makes perfect! Another idea of Wing Chun is to "not to waste time".

During Chi Sao practice, the partners are supposed to be working on something. They can also "agree" to help the other work on that something by what we call "feeding the hands". And these techniques are relative to the Wing Chun system. However, often times as with any two people getting together there are egos present and the Chi Sao can then be viewed as a form of sparring. The difference generally is that true sparring allows only momentary contact, which does not allow us to really study the close contact realted information transferred from touching your opponent - their energy, their direction, their intent, the knowledge of their structure etc. One could go from Chi Sao training to the Sparring arena for testing ideas and then back to Chi Sao work on specific attributes (balance, coordination, sensitivity, timing, relaxation, and distance awareness along with footwork and other techniques). Again, sparring is not true street fighting but it gives us some useful ideas about preparation for street fighting and real combat on a physical level.

Also, note that as you study the Kung Fu it developes into Choc Doggy's Kung Fu. If you need all these other things like grappling and high kicks etc., then this is your Kung Fu (to add to your own personal arsenal) not Wing Chun or any deficiancy of Wing Chun not to provide these things.

As a Wing Chun person, your goal is to the path of liberation. You, with the help of your Sifu and Kung Fu family, will map out a plan for your development. When you gain some Kung Fu, you will then be in a position to answer your own question "why so much focus on Chi Sao?"

Good Luck in your Kung Fu and hopefully we will see you in Hong Kong!

[red5angel]

Chocalatedoggy - if you are studying wingchun, the basics are extremely important, slt, dan chi sau, etc.... For sensitivity dan chi sau and chi sau are done. There is no end to how sensitive you can become so why stop? That sensitivitiy is what allows you to overcome someone elses speed, along with other things. Sparring is a clumsy way to develop sensitivity at the level we train it. You have to look at it as a refinement, chi sau, like sparring, have its place place in training. Where does all this sensitivity get you? Well, the moment you make contact with your opponent, you know him, what his intent is, where his energy and concentration are. The more sensitive you can become to this the better your skill level......

[OdderMensch]

interesting. i guess the most effecient way to use WC would be not to use WC at all. But since I veiw a "one shot kill" as impracitcal in most situations(desireable, but unlikely) one would almost always get into contact if one followed WCs "stratagy" of moving in and staying till the deed was done.

I was "talking" (read sparing :) ) with some kempo-karate people and the advice from the "peanut galary" (read BBs ;) ) were things like "get in get out" and "use your combos" and one that caught my ear, "find where the hands are, go where they are not."

I've been contrasting that one in my mind with the idea of "seeking the bridge/sinking the bridge." any toughts?

[kungfu cowboy]

There is no end to how sensitive you can become so why stop?

I'm sure there are probaby limits to the capacity of the human nervous system, or at least the law of diminishing returns may apply here. Probably more like the concept of the limit in calculus. Maybe only in terms of trying to reach that most perfect level of functioning would I see the ability to progress as infinite. But maybe there aren't any limits. Something worth looking into. Synaptic plasticity and the limits on learning.

[ChocolateDoggy]

Wow thanks for your informative replies everyone. :D

I understand why chi sao is important now, and I tryed some basic stuff with a friend(only for a few minutes though) just to see how it's like, and it's actually really fun.

But I have another question... when you sparr can you "stick" to the other persons' hand, or is that only possible in chi sao? and i dont think tournaments are a focus of wing chun, and their not my focus either, but i want to go to tourneys when I get more advanced at least once a year just for the experience of it(probably after practicing wing chun for a year). Since we start sparring late in my wing chun school, is it possible to be able to sparr with and win the average karate/TKD people after a year of practicing wing chun(training in chi sao)?

thanks everyone!! i know i'll have more questions in the future, im happy there's more experienced people to help!!

[stuartm]

Hi,

This may be considered simplistic but IMHO, Chi Sau is the free and unrestricted expression and application of the Wing Chun forms.

Stuart

[{i^(]

Yeah, lotsa thoughts, but uncertain how helpful they could be.

To my mind, while thinking along the lines of "blocking" isn't truly our language, the elbows are a kind of blocking system. IMO, the structure allows this. I always tell si-dai that they shouldn't adapt to MY mistakes, but keep to the structure that they came to us to gain (strange way to put it...hmmm....).

So I show them. Karate guys might reach for a block, while in bong sau, the elbow does the same job (an illustration, not a hard and fast rule). So the contact allows the system to work, gives control over the situation, etc.

IMO, going where the hands are not is odd advice. You'll get hit if you ignore them "glass head, tofu body" and all that jazz. They train at a different distance from us. What's a combo? A snack food? LOL Isn't that predicting the outcome of a fight?

[{i^(]

Chi sau develops more than just strategy, IMO, because it corrects structure and power delivery, and it is very different in flavor from many arts.

A story from another board awhile back in illustration: WC guy was talking about his sifu, a small Hmong man. Sifu goes to a karate place, where they have a dummy set up with it's base set in a large tire. He asks: "so, you do WC?" Sensei: "yes, but it's advanced. I'll show you how I do it."

He does and it looks and sounds like karate- lotsa yelling and "ki-ai" power strikes. Hmong sifu then shows his form, slow and quiet, and nearly topples the thing. Sensei's eyes get VERY wide and he goes quiet....sifu sez: "nice dummy you got there..." LOL

I think anyone with a little experience in WC knows what was going on: structure, sensitivity, elbow energy, etc. The karate guy just saw a weird looking makiwara to beat on. Different eyes, see? That POV comes from chi sau IMO.

[Lindley57]

Choc Doggy,

When we use the term "sticking" we should be clear that this is a training method using the 3 seeds of Wing Chun to enhance our ability to use our hands as "antennae" about the centerline. Our focus is to stay in control of the centerline, so we stick as long as something is there (in the centerline) for information about our opponent. Otherwise "nothing there, the hands go forward..."

Chi Sao, at the higher levels, transcends to little to no "sticking" at all. There is long arm or finger tip Chi Sao where there is only one technique applied by each player. In a real fight, lines of action (efficient striking opportunities) are dynamically opening up and shutting down in a matter of seconds.

The only "sticking" you may experience in a fight with the other styles you mention or in a sparring match would be what some refer to as "trapping". You can create this "condition", for example, with the Wing Chun punch or Bong Sao (with an accompanying Woo Sao or the two collectively known as Quan Sao). The "sticking" is very short in duration. Trapping can be viewed as "a mistake" made by the opponent (their hands cross over each other or they overcommit in a direction) to allow you to trap one position over the other.

However, in a cooperative sparring session (not a fight) one way sticking could be used (in non-Chi Sao) would be as a test whether your opponent could execute their striking techniques with your hands maintained in constant contact with theirs. Bruce Lee used to do this and frustrate a lot of Karate people.

I think you would be dissappointed with attending standard tournaments. They are often long and boring until the later afternoon when the Black Belts go on. There is specific training for Tournaments which often times is far from combat training. Beware of the "point" sparring. I was in a tournament a while back "just for the experience" when I was at Bil Je level and signed on as a Black Belt. I did not properly prepare for it as I found out about it at the last minute. I lost on "points", but I knocked my opponent to the ground with a punch and did well otherwise. I felt confident I could take him out (fairly easily) in a real fight. You should either seek Wing Chun tournaments (which seems to be gaining popularity) or open style tournaments where it is 3 rounds of all out fighting (cup, mouthpiece, and open finger gloves). They have this once a year in the Baltimore area in the Spring (San Sao?).

Good luck!

[OdderMensch]

yeah its odd advice form a WC standpoint. I was more contrasting that with chum kiu than compareing the two.



To my mind, while thinking along the lines of "blocking" isn't truly our language, the elbows are a kind of blocking system.

yeah going out there is always an eye opener. Out sifu always tells us "we have offense, and thing you do to get back on offense" they can be very defensive sometimes and it always seems to hurt them in the long run

[{i^(]

"Out sifu always tells us "we have offense, and thing you do to get back on offense" they can be very defensive sometimes and it always seems to hurt them in the long run"

Which, among other possible things, kinda points out the relationship and difference between chi sau and sparring, right? I hafta say, I like Lindley57's answer re: 'the laboratory'. You test theory, they test theory, you both use it to correct structure, enhance precision, get stickier etc.

One of the best quotes I've seen regarding practice went something like: "practice a long time for a fight that lasts little time, this is the correct way." Flip that, and you get "no practice=long, dragged out stupid fighting." Which sounds like high school or something. LOL

[WCFighter]

I believe it is important to practice chi sao AND sparring as
often as you can.

I have seen some people spend too much time with chi sao and
nothing for sparring; the result, they suck at sparring.

I have seen some people spend too much time sparring and
nothing for chi sao; the result, they suck at chi sao, and they suck
at extremely close range sparring skills. Their sparring looks more like karate or twd. They go in and out with one shot, but they don't try to stay there and finish the person off with multiple combinations, traps, and elbows, etc.

[S.Teebas]

..unrestricted expression and application of the Wing Chun forms

Whats restricting about the forms?

[chessGMwannabe]

Whats restricting about the forms?

the forms are restricted to yourself. chisau is making two one. any conventional fight depends on one effecting another, and that is done through contact, however brief it may be. when contact is made everything that one person does no matter how insignificant effects the other. learn to open your eyes through chisau. everything that it true is there waiting to be discovered, and everything testifies of it. why blunder in ignorance? learn to see what is happening, learn to become one with the moment. forms don't really do that. no bong sau can be done in a form. you may arm yourself with wonderful abilities, but you won't prepare yourself to understand what is happening in that momment of contact. you'll be looking at if from the outside and guessing when and how to use your body. tehn a few minutes you'll say "I should have done this, or I could have done that, he just got lucky, I just messed up. I'm really better, he just won . . "
at advanced levels, your short-term memmory won't process as fast as your body acts, and often you'll not 'know' what happened, but your training will carry you.
forms are the bread and butter, but chisau is the meat and potatoes of wingchun in my opinion

[Sam]

A common mistake many Wing Chun practitioners make is to assume that Chi Sao is fighting. Chi Sao enhances fighting prowess. In Fut Sao Wing Chun Chi Sao is not only done in the single and two arm practice but also in two man sets. This practice is for the total sensitivity of the whole body (including footworks) while doing "live" fighting sets. Chi Sao progresses as you evolve your knowledge of each form ie; Siu Lin Tao Chi Sao, Chum Kue Chi Sao, Biu Gee Chi Sao, Siu Baat Gwa Chi Sao, Mook Yan Jong Chi Sao, and Knife (cutting) and Staff (pointing) Chi Sao.

[chessGMwannabe]

a worse mistake is that sparring is really fighting