What do we do?

[youshang]

Picture this: You and a friend are walking back form your Kung Fu class, you see some guy being pushed around, he gets hit, goes down and then his attacker starts "putting the boot" in on his prone corpse. :( Do you, as a martial artist, have a responibility to help? Would you assist a Police officer in restraining a criminal?

The point is, as martial artists, how much of a respnsibility do we have to use our skills for just purposes?

[Ish]

i would certainly suggest to the person that theyd clearly had enough and depending on his response probly be on my way. if he kept kicking the person or started on me i do something to help but i wouldn't really want to get into a fight obout it.

i probly wouldn't help out in the police restraining a criminal unless asked to by the officer cos i just don't think theyd appreciate your help if anything theyd probly think you were just lookuing for trouble yourself.

[youshang]

I see what your saying about sorting it out if you came under threat, and I can appreciate the police senario, but both were examples. On a wider scale, you have been given valuable skills, (or at least you should have,) just how much help should we feel obliged to offer? Obviously, this is perhaps best answered by a well qualified martial artist, (in no way suggesting that Ish isn't,) I just wondered what people thought on the topic. ;)

Many eastern arts stress helping others, and generally cultivate a "community" spirit. Is this just a dojo thing, or are these arts developing the character? :)

[dezhen2001]

Interesting thread... theres a lot of other factors u have to think about as well... heres a situaiton that happened to a mate of mine.

One time he had just come out of a club and saw this huuuuge well built black guy (200lbs+) hitting a girl (his gf?) hard. He also had another huge mate with him.

Now what would u do? Of course he wanted to help but he's only arounf 5'9 and 155lbs... so he stood as close to them as possible (without getting in their personal space) and basically waited until it was safe to do something. No point in rushing in trying ot be a 'hero' and ending up getting YOUR ass kicked as well - then who can help u both? :)

As for helping cops... can u get charged with assault or GBH if u help 'restrain' someone?

Just my thoughts on something like that... it's not as cut and dry as it seems :)

david

[ewallace]

I absolutely would help out a police officer if I saw that they were in trouble. About 2 years ago a family friend who was also a swat officer and former gloden gloves boxer, went to apprehend a burglary suspect. They began to struggle and somehow the perp got a hold of the policeman's gun and shot him in the head. He died a couple hours later. Point is that if someone had gone in to help "Rocky" (as they called him) would still be alive.

[youshang]

there is absolutely no point getting your ass whooped for a good cause, but if you felt you could get out of it alive... I wanna say that it's not about being a hero, the most enduring things aren't acreditted to soemone, (except the light bulb.) wow, how mature of me. :D

True, there are so many factors around this kind of issue. I'm not sure the police would go through with GBH or assault charges if you had good intentions, but you never know. It also depends on how good your ground work is I guess, no good slapping on a solid joint lock if your gonna get bitten. :eek:

Sorry to hear about your friend ewallace. :(

[The Willow Sword]

sort of moral code regarding the helping of others? doesnt any of your kwoons or dojos teach you to use your art in a just way?
or is that just fodder on the wall for decoration?
I WOULD certainly help the person being attacked and getting pummeled. i would also assist an officer if he or she was needing assistance, without question.

"YOU yourself and all that you possess should be dedicated to majestic causes; as warriors on the martial path it is our DUTY to follow the will of the gods, externally and internally, and serve the people." quote from the principles of BUDO.

MRTWS

[apoweyn]

good question.

it's complicated in this day and age. on the one hand, willow sword has a point that morality dictates a certain course of action. (personally, i think that has f*ck all to do with being a martial artist, except in so far that your training makes you physically capable. i don't personally see myself as somehow 'ordained' by my training. i do view myself as an essentially good person, though. and that dictates a certain moral responsibility.)

that said, picture this: i'm in annapolis one night with my girlfriend at the time. we're at a bar with a bunch of people tragically younger than us. i'm all too happy to leave when it's time, so i go out front and wait for everyone out there. while i'm waiting, i see a single, young skateboarder type getting hassled by a bunch of college-age guys. as far as i can gather, they mouthed off to him, and now he's talking back. he's not blameless though. he's being very aggressive now.

anyway, one guy steps up, grabs the kid, slams him face down on the hood of a car, flips him onto his back, and grabs him around the throat. i step in. then someone jumps me from behind, grabs me, and pushes me away. i'm startled. i freeze. just as well, as it turns out. a third frat boy stops me and tells me that the first two are actually undercover cops. they're arresting this kid.

so there are several issues: 1) according to the law, i was on the wrong side, 2) if i hadn't of frozen under duress, i might have slugged a cop, 3) i did freeze under duress, because i wasn't absolutely sure what the situation was or what the right side was, 4) i'm too pretty to go to jail.

i saw a bigger guy pushing a smaller guy around. and i reacted. (prompted by the un-police-like practice of flipping the guy on his back and grabbing his throat rather than leaving him face down and cuffing him)

that's not to say that people shouldn't help other people. but i do believe that it's more complicated than the cartoonish, robin hood image i kinda wish it were.


stuart b.

[youshang]

I wish it was as easy as KA-POW ing the bad guys. :)

[Ryu]

Here's a my best answer.

While I do feel everyone has a moral obligation to help others (not just MAists), there are only certain types of individuals who can actually have the situational awareness, psychological processes, etc. to actually be a REAL help. Not EVERYONE went in to save people during the twin tower collapse. However the ones that did (police, firefighters, and civilians alike) have a certain ability to focus solely on the person in danger, and not think about themselves first. Getting out safely yourself is necessary to SAVE the other person. Therefore your safety becomes priority too because it will usually effect the other person's safety as well.

A lot of times if someone tries to rush into a situation without thinking or having a game plan, they will unknowingly make the situation worse for the victim.
The police will generally ask for assistance from a civilian if they are not able to restrain someone, and backup is yet to arrive. The hard thing is in the judgment call. You have to be careful in your interference with certain situations. Sometimes your lack of understanding or training in real world scenarios can actually get someone killed. That isn't an insult, but a reality. People who save people from burning buildings, rescue hostages, etc. are trained extensively for it. It's not just having skill in MA.

With all this said, if you asked me to make a knee jerk response with a yes or no on whether to help or not help........
obviously my answer is to help always. Not everyone appreciates being helped by the way.... But you do that kind of thing not for fame and appreciation, but because it's the "right" thing to do.

But in order to really correctly judge that it's the "right" thing to do, you must have experience, and training other than MA.

Ryu

[Ryu]

AP, that's exactly what I was talking about! Good story! Very good example there. :)

Ryu

[The Willow Sword]

true it is difficult to know just how something starts and what to do about it when you are there witnessing.
i guess it would be a matter of personal judgment and what your heart and gut tells you. in your situation your subconcious stopped you and you were saved from going to jail.
in the matter of seeing a guy beating up another guy in an alley or in the parkinglot or maybe a women being attacked by boyfriend or stranger,,it would clearly indicate some sort of action to stop it. i dont think it is a matter of being "ordained" persay by your school or your martial path. You in effect "Ordain yourself" when you enter the martial path. but most of us,,me included, walk a side road to the martial path,,we are enthusiasts.
and from time to time jump on the path and then jump back out again.
MRTWS

[Water Dragon]

My first responsibility is to my wife and sons, and people around me tend to carry guns.

I have helped out, but usually you need to let things be.

[dezhen2001]

generally ANYONE with a shred of common decency would probably do something - the myth that it's only Martial Artists is just pure BS :D

david

[youshang]

very true, not everyone wants saving. a friend of mine tried to break up a couple who were threatening each other, (not very wise...) they both turned on him and he was forced to get away. In one way it worked, because they stopped threatening each other and drove off. :) As Machiaveli says, you want to make two states become friends, present them with a common threat.

[Ryu]

again...... not EVERYONE has what is necessary to do those kinds of things. :) That's not a "moral" issue really.... not if you see where they're coming from. Water Dragon's first priority is his wife and kids, and getting killed in a situation will put them in a terrible position for years to come.

Again, the judgment call is important here.

I have a habit of running into situations to help others. It's just the way I am. But I better know exactly what's going on, and exactly how to realistically react to a given situation in order for me to be effective.... and that's hard to do. Even for people who train to do it.

Good thread though.

Ryu

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Ryu
AP, that's exactly what I was talking about! Good story! Very good example there. :)

Ryu

cheers ryu. but you put your finger on the... principles behind my example. you're absolutely right.

in my example, i didn't have a game plan. so when i acted, it was halting, unsure, and ultimately pretty ineffectual (which turned out to be a good thing, as it happens). and i wasn't psychologically prepared to get shoved away like that. in short, i went in blind (lacking awareness, understanding, and commitment to a course of action). if things had been different, that could've cost me big.

beautiful point. the sort of scenarios we're talking about require more than just an experience of martial arts.


stuart b.

[youshang]

Feel like a bit of a t**t now, gotta go till tomorrow, have fun with the line of conversation, I think it's valuable. Peace, Joe

[apoweyn]

willow sword,


Originally posted by The Willow Sword
true it is difficult to know just how something starts and what to do about it when you are there witnessing.
i guess it would be a matter of personal judgment and what your heart and gut tells you. in your situation your subconcious stopped you and you were saved from going to jail.
in the matter of seeing a guy beating up another guy in an alley or in the parkinglot or maybe a women being attacked by boyfriend or stranger,,it would clearly indicate some sort of action to stop it. i dont think it is a matter of being "ordained" persay by your school or your martial path. You in effect "Ordain yourself" when you enter the martial path. but most of us,,me included, walk a side road to the martial path,,we are enthusiasts.
and from time to time jump on the path and then jump back out again.
MRTWS

absolutely. it's a judgment call. and some judgments are easier to make than others. a guy backhanding his girlfriend is a very different (and perhaps clearer) situation than the one i described. good point.

and i like the idea that you ordain yourself. nice. personally, i don't think you do that when you take up martial arts. plenty of people train in martial arts and wouldn't do what you describe here. that takes, as ryu pointed out, a certain sort of person.

but then, you do tend to describe the ideal where i tend to describe the actual. and, the more we do this, the more i think that's a valuable mix.

personally, i think we're 'ordained' when we actually do something. not the theoretical study. but the actual act. but what i like about your characterization is that it puts a moral framework in place ahead of time. one that might help to frame action later on.

this is where the system falls apart, though: without the sorts of specialized training that ryu referenced, we end up with a bunch of half-c*cked martial artists running around playing knight errant. if people are going to take it upon themselves to do good, then they need to do so in as informed and well-trained a manner as possible, which might include studies in psychology, first aid, etc. and at that point, you're talking about something different, something bigger, than most martial artists. something bigger than me, anyway.


stuart b.

[The Willow Sword]

"this is where the system falls apart, though: without the sorts of specialized training that ryu referenced, we end up with a bunch of half-c*cked martial artists running around playing knight errant. if people are going to take it upon themselves to do good, then they need to do so in as informed and well-trained a manner as possible, which might include studies in psychology, first aid, etc. and at that point, you're talking about something different, something bigger, than most martial artists. something bigger than me, anyway."

i guess its not something that you go looking for,,i mean to go out and be a vigilante,,,,if it happens to cross your path then you have your decisions to make. as for the study of psychology,,first aid,etc. i guess that what we learn in the schools we study at,,we ARE learning a form of psychology,,reading body movements, attitudes, demeanors etc. in order to better asses the intent of the opponent. as for first aid,,i think it should be mandatory in ALL schools that you learn CPR and how to ressusitate an unconcious person as well as learn to render an opponent unconcious.

MRTWS

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by The Willow Sword
i guess its not something that you go looking for,,i mean to go out and be a vigilante,,,,if it happens to cross your path then you have your decisions to make. as for the study of psychology,,first aid,etc. i guess that what we learn in the schools we study at,,we ARE learning a form of psychology,,reading body movements, attitudes, demeanors etc. in order to better asses the intent of the opponent. as for first aid,,i think it should be mandatory in ALL schools that you learn CPR and how to ressusitate an unconcious person as well as learn to render an opponent unconcious.


that's a good point too. though i think more specialized training could (and perhaps should) be integrated into the curricula of schools wishing to serve that purpose. de-escalation techniques, for example. personally, i've never done scenario training. and i think that would be a valuable addition to a curriculum.


stuart b.

[SevenStar]

it definitely depends on the situation. A big thing to consider is the relationship of the people involved. several months ago, I heard a commotion outside my window. I looked out and saw a man and woman arguing. I told my wife to get ready to call the cops if anything happened, meanwhile I was going to go downstairs if things got worse. Things got worse. the guy slammed the girl into the ground. I took off downstairs, and my wife opened the window and yelled "I'm going to call the cops. You'd better leave," or something to that effect. He looked at her, pulled out a cell phone and said "here, call em" that gave me enough time to get downstairs. His eyes got extremely wide when he saw me running towards him, and he hopped in his truck and drove off. I helped the woman up and she told me that the man was her ex and that he was ****ed about their breakup. What if the the man had stayed, I beat him up and the woman pressed charges? Even though I tried to help her, she most likely still had feelings for this man and would not have appreciated me hurting him. OR, what if he had only ran into his truck to get a gun?

[SevenStar]

here's another one, more recent than the last. My wife and I were driving home when suddenly she started screaming. I looked over and see this paperboy getting beaten. I told her to pull over, and I hopped out of the car. at the same time, anonther guy hopped out of his truck. when the attacker saw us, he ran off. When I talked to the guy that jumped out of his truck, he said that when he got out, he was reaching for his gun, but realized that he left it at home that day. What if he had it, but was a bad aim? I coulda got shot. What if he was friends with the attacker? I coulda got shot. The attacker jumped into a "get away car" so I know there was at least one other person. what if there were more and they wanted to fight? what if they had guns? Were they gang members?

Afterwards, I called 911 and stayed with the guy until they got there. I think that was smarter than tring to chase them off was. I saw a cop at the gas station across the street, so I told him what happened. He didn't bother to help. he just said "okay, since you called, someone will be here" and he got in his car and drove off.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by youshang
very true, not everyone wants saving. a friend of mine tried to break up a couple who were threatening each other, (not very wise...) they both turned on him and he was forced to get away. In one way it worked, because they stopped threatening each other and drove off. :) As Machiaveli says, you want to make two states become friends, present them with a common threat.

mate, if there were a trophy for the best machiavelli reference, i'd be awarding it to you right now. nice.


stuart b.

[yenhoi]

The only time you are forced to do something is when something happens to you.

'Round here you dont jump into other peoples buisness or you might become someone else's buisness.

But, as was already said, a woman getting beaten, a dude getting mugged, or someone stealing candy from a small child, are specific extreme cases that demand immediate action, sometimes without the option of figuring out whos toes your stepping on.

[No_Know]

Two states or two people, you've got to do something. Some like to argue. That is a form of working through things for some perhaps.

When the animals take water from the same watering hole they watch the water and listen for the approach of others. Merely walking towards a bad looking situation can break the momentum and help. You might get warned-off or it might break-up. People don't mind doing bad or wrong until they are noticed. When you get a certain close a yell or raised voice of "What's going on (here (there))..." Might get you a gist of the situation and guide for what next.

Approach; question; stay verbal (reason) or walk away (to let it get sorted out or alert the authorities or merely inform someone else...) or threaten (I'll call the cops (this can be perceived as an attack and you can be targeted. Plus, some meet ultimatums with absolute responses--O.K. I'll just kill your friend while you do that and be off before they get here...)or deceive (The Police are (already) on their way).

Approach; observe (how many, appearance--height, build, clothes, distinguishing marks/features (scar pimplefaced Mom shaved on to head, big nose one eyed...); direction in which they left...); ask the apparant victim (if one remains~) if there's something you can do to help type-of-thing...even after they say you could have stopped them from taking my...or hurting me...

Taking a Fighting Kung-Fu does not require that you protect others than yourself, friends and family. Shao-Lin Does have a code which does state to help the weaker~. But Not every School has such a thing. The responsibility to Help (protect/defend) for Kung-Fu-ers is Only to oneself, and that of one's friends and family.

Some seem to need to go through difficulties to not be troubled again by those difficulties. Things need to play out. What is helpful cannot be determined necessarily. Helping cannot be your excuse for doing something or stepping -in. You likely want to serve a purpose or test your skill or your self or some-such. This means if you want to "Help" it migt be Selfish motivations so The most help might be in drawing attention to the situation or letting them know they are not doing this in secret away from the scrutiny of others. And being observant to give information or descriptions later to the authorities or other onlookers (community) or the victim.

People can hit and throw around and that can be payback or lesson teaching. You might more strongly consider getting more involved (only verbally strongly recommended) if there is severe bruising (3) or profuse bleeding or pool of blood. You have difficulty standing Horse riding, thighs near parallel for as much as a minute, you can't do front splits yet and you are winded by the middle of the form. It is not recommended that you enter the variable arena of armed stranger possiblly veteran psychology of intimidation (to freeze) and taunting to force you to commit so that you can get wounded.

It usually is Not your responsibility to fix the world starting with this possiblly potentially volitle situation. Start by practicing more If you feel you must do something. Even though practicing might seem harder. Hard enough becomes not as hard.~

[Grendel]

Originally posted by The Willow Sword
sort of moral code regarding the helping of others? doesnt any of your kwoons or dojos teach you to use your art in a just way?
or is that just fodder on the wall for decoration?
I WOULD certainly help the person being attacked and getting pummeled. i would also assist an officer if he or she was needing assistance, without question.

"YOU yourself and all that you possess should be dedicated to majestic causes; as warriors on the martial path it is our DUTY to follow the will of the gods, externally and internally, and serve the people." quote from the principles of BUDO.

Hi Willow Sword,

I didn't learn morality in my Kwoon, I learned it at home. You are correct to say you should help, whether you intervene on behalf of a victim to stop a beating or killing, or to help a police officer. Believe me, the police appreciate it. I have been in a position to help a police officer a couple of times, and each time, the officer asked for help, I did.

Police have a tough, usually thankless job. We'd have to be a lot better martial artists to protect ourselves and our families if they didn't exist. :)

Besides, the opportunity to use Kung Fu seldom comes around, and it's good to put it to use. :D

Regards,

[TkdWarrior]

havn't read any of other posts...but still
i know my consicous will mostly say in these kinds of situation that "I should help" but remembering one incident,i sometime takes back step but it would be sad feeling if i read about the person being dead the other day in newspaper.
Being Skilled martial artist doesn't always means that ur judgement is Skilled/Soung too... u can never ever judge urself in sesitive cases...

let me share u that incident this happend with my freind's near relative,
he was goin somewhere, when he say couple of guys overpowering some old person and he tried to help the old guy, but got himself dead , he got shot by gun...???that was sad...
dunno who those was?wat happened to that old man? but the thing is He is DEAD.
he was very rite about helping old man, but was he able to do it?
was that worth it?may be yes, may be not...

On the judgement Day if u find urself being in one piece, then
kneel down and thank god.

"Life is precious"

-TkdWarrior-

[Shadow Dragon]

Personally, I don't help until I am asked to do so.

This might entail hanging around a trouble area to see how it develops and get a better idea of what is going on.

If possible I will try to sort it out with verbal skills.

Whereas Cops appreciate help they do NOT appreciate people making matters worse or more difficult to sort out.

Said that, I am not a Cop nor am I trained to do his job.
Neither am I a Doctor, Para-medic, Fire-fighter,etc .

I can only help to the best of my ability, but need to stop immediately when I start to exceed those abilities as I might cause more harm/damage than do good.

I will not interfere in an area where there is already security like Bars, Clubs, Malls, etc. I will notify them of the ongoings though.

Cheers.

[Serpent]

I've actually been in that clasic situation where I saw a guy shaking and slapping a girl in a quiet sidestreet. I stepped in and pushed the guy away saying, "Why are you beating on a girl, you twat" or something similar as I did so.

The guy starts getting heavy and a slight scuffle ensues. Within seconds his chick leaps onto my back (literally jumped right onto me like it was a f*cking piggy back) and started scratching and bashing me on the back of the head. I had to spin around and kinda knock her sideways into the wall to get her off while trying to stop her boyfriend knocking me out.

I managed to get her off and copped a big hit from the boyfriend, but it was more forearm than fist. Dazed and dizzy I ran back out onto the main street and legged it.

Go figure.

[dezhen2001]

good call SD... u know what u can and can't do... so no need to try somethingu can't do :)

david