Wing Chun & Tai Chi? Internal Wing Chun?

[still_logicz]

What's up guys? I have been doing a little researching lately and I have come to a decision that the two martial arts that I would love to study would be Wing Chun & Tai Chi. My questions are:

1) Do you guys think that either can help/compliment each other?

2) Which one should I start first?

3) Do you even think it is wise to study both together?

And I read an interesting article about the secrets of chi in Wing Chun and how it is supposed to be the secret last steps of WC.

4) Does anybody here practice this part of WC (The internal side)?

5) Know any teachers in the NY or FLA area that teach it?

6) And last but not least, Do you think it would be better to train in the US or China to acquire the full, natural art of WC &/or Tai Chi?

Thanks guys. I'm really anticipating your answers. Latah.

[red5angel]

still_logicz - where are you from? how long have you been studying?
this can be sensitive subject around here, check your pm ;)

[still_logicz]

I live in NY but I might be moving to FLA by the beginning of next year. I have not started studying yet due to the fact that I need to find out more info before I make a solid and secure choice.

[teazer]

IMO, start one - whichever has the best instructor. Practice the bejeesus out of that. Maybe in a few years revisit the issue.
There are complimentary parts & conflicting parts. Until you have a bit of experience you won't know which they are.
Don't look to directly develop 'chi' with your martial arts. Just practice looking for good, relaxed power + contact sensitivity, everything else will sort itself out.

[Ars vitae]

From what I remember, there's a member who treads these boards fairly regularly here, called KJ. Try contacting her.
My own personal experience through WT and Yang style Taiji (even though I still think I don't train hard enoguh) is that there is some overlap, in some concepts which help solidify what you're doing in both. However at the same time, I seriously recommend having a strong base in one of the arts first, as some of the theories may seem to be in gross conflict as well.

[kj]

Someone rang? :)


Originally posted by still_logicz
What's up guys? I have been doing a little researching lately and I have come to a decision that the two martial arts that I would love to study would be Wing Chun & Tai Chi. My questions are:


I'll preface my response by saying that I practice only Wing Chun. I do, however, know people who practice Taiji seriously, as well as a handful who practice both. Any insights I have are largely vicarious.



1) Do you guys think that either can help/compliment each other?

In some ways, I believe they can, but perhaps more so for some people than for others. However, I firmly believe that Wing Chun is sufficient in and of itself to learn and develop Wing Chun. Furthermore, I believe that to practice Wing Chun as one's sole martial art is best for Wing Chun. I cannot help but think the same would hold for taijiquan. The opportunity costs, IMHO, do not justify practice of both arts if a person is deeply serious about one of them.

These are both deep systems. How many lifetimes would it take for most of us to excel at even one of them? Let alone both? Let alone the complications of keeping them straight? To excel at both will be about as easy as doing justice to two husbands or two wives.



2) Which one should I start first?


Which is the one that really interests you, or interests you the most? Perhaps more research is in order, or perhaps your intuition knows where your heart is already.

Begging the question a bit further, why do you feel you need or want to practice both rather than focus on one? More a food-for-thought question, as you may still be researching without and within, and forming your thoughts and opinions on the matter.



3) Do you even think it is wise to study both together?


The answer to this question will depend on the person.

Some would say yes, and for some of those I might agree it isn't "unwise" to do so.

My strong personal opinion however, is that it generally is not the wisest choice to do so. "Generally" implies there may be rare exceptions. I don't have the bandwidth for an expository essay, but this is my considered opinion. (I always reserve the right to change my opinions, LOL.)

I do not believe we need to go outside the system of Wing Chun to develop Wing Chun. For those inclined or insisting to do so - for whatever personal reasons, needs or preferences - I sometimes suggest they investigate forms of yoga, qigong, or even Pilates. Some people also find structural and functional methodologies like Feldenkrais, Alexander Technique, and Rolfing to be of help. All of these, IMHO, may be less conflicting with Wing Chun than taijiquan in many respects, and can be less demanding in terms of time.

If after due consideration, one has an insatiable desire - for whatever reason - to pursue and practice both arts, then they should just do what makes them happy and not worry about my opinions or anyone else's. Once the choice is made, don't disturb your peace by worrying or mulling over the pros and cons continuously. Just do the work, do your best at each, and do your best not to confuse them in body or mind.



And I read an interesting article about the secrets of chi in Wing Chun and how it is supposed to be the secret last steps of WC.


Never heard that one. I don't claim to know much, but is sounds like total hogwash to me. I am a firm believer that the only "secret" is hard work over time.

As for chi, we don't focus on that or distract our work with it. If it is observed and develops, all well and good. IMHO, it is folly to be frustrated or distracted in search of it, in lieu of prescribed Wing Chun practice. If it comes to pass, let it be. This is consistent with the perspective of my teacher also, so I feel my POV on the matter is in good company.



4) Does anybody here practice this part of WC (The internal side)?

Depends what you mean by "internal." It's a loaded word. If you mean relaxed but substantial, yes, I do my best to practice that way.



5) Know any teachers in the NY or FLA area that teach it?


Still not sure what "it" is exactly. ;) Also, where in NY and where in FL?



6) And last but not least, Do you think it would be better to train in the US or China to acquire the full, natural art of WC &/or Tai Chi?


Your desire and ability to travel may be a consideration.

Some of the top taijiquan practitioners spend plenty of time in both China and in North America. Chen Xiawang, Chen Qingzhou, and numerous others routinely travel and teach throughout the U.S. There are also a number of next generation(s) taijiquan practitioners fully worth consideration, and further improving accessibility.

As for Wing Chun, high quality and true to Wing Chun is unfortunately not all that common, IMHO, and takes some searching. I believe your chances of finding and accessing quality instruction are better in North America than in China at this point in time. Within China, I think it remains easier to find quality instruction in Hong Kong than in Foshan or other areas of China. I reiterate that "easy to find" is relative though. The harder, more diligent, more sincere, more thorough and more open minded your search, the better your chances of success.

As Thomas Jefferson wrote "I'm a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work the more I have of it."

Whatever your path, enjoy and good luck. ;)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Wong Lung]

Wing Chun is a great art and if you train in the internal it is something else.Roger Smart si-fu has been teaching the Shanxi Hsing I Sung style, the old Sung style with Wing Chun to his older students for sometime.He calls this total body or full body Wing Chun.In the Yip Man Foshan style they use the name Wu shing ba gua bu which means five element eight direction stepping.This was taught by Yip Man to his Foshan students only.There are other Hsing I movments as well.

[Mithrandir]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kj
[B]Someone rang? :)


These are both deep systems. How many lifetimes would it take for most of us to excel at even one of them? Let alone both? Let alone the complications of keeping them straight? To excel at both will be about as easy as doing justice to two husbands or two wives.

[B]

Two wives?:( My life is hard enough doing justice to my "little lady of fire", I couldn't imagine trying to figure out two women at once:confused: . As always you hit the nail on the head KJ. I'll stick to my WC and consider myself lucky with the amount of confusion already on my plate!

You crack me up,
Mithrandir

[anerlich]

Ask red5angel and atleastimnotyou. Their Sifu mixes taiji in to cover the deficiencies he feels exist in Wing Chun, the same as they say my Sifu practices and teaches BJJ and knife/stick combatives for the same reason.

I'm joking, but I'll still probably get a rise out of one of them.

[teazer]

This was taught by Yip Man to his Foshan students only.

Is this considered a good thing?

[red5angel]

Anerlich, that was good I wll give you that, I rose a little, just a little though ;)

[8StalksOfRice]

If you took a trip to China and polled the Chinese
you would likely get that Tai Chi is superior..definitely in the north
and also likely in the south.
Thought to originate from Wu Dang, a nemesis in both style and philiosophy/religion from that of Shaolin Wing Chun.
Both internal soft styles.. many parallels.. ie..
Tai Chi pushing hands VS Wing Chun sticky hands

These things said.. it is said by others that Wing Chun is a system developed to be learnt much quicker. Whin Chun is a bit newer but that doesnt always mean better.

The great Sung General Yue Fei, glorified in Chinese traditions, is an exponent of Tai Chi and said to have trained his officers in the lesser Hsing Yi and Tai Chi and his troops in Ba Gua.

In my opinion only, Tai Chi is better but I dont have the luxury of an excellent teacher nor the all day everyday training for mastering it..
so for me, wing chun .. its relative simplicity compared with other styles and effectiveness suits me fine

[teazer]

& I thought Yue Fei & his troops were busy enough learning Hsing-I & Eagle Claw. Didn't realize they had to do Tai Chi & bagua as well! Amazing they had time left to fight any battles
:confused:

[reneritchie]

Yue Fei (Ngok Fei), like Ng Mui and other luminaries, is often credited with a plethora of martial arts, including Xingyi, Yingzhao, Yuejiaquan, etc. Heck, there's even a story that Ng Mui and Bak Mei learned his special family art (Ngok Ga Kuen) in a temple in Emei and their interpretations became Wing Chun & Bak Mei...

RR

[teazer]

Just imagine - massed troops of bagua exponents being led by a Tai Chi guy.
YF yells "Press, everybody, Press!!!" and "The enemy is attacking, Roll Back". No joy.
He tries a different communication style - "Crush the enemy"

& his offices start advancing punching anyone in their path
but all his footsoldiers start walking in circles.

So he starts firing coins off his dan tien at the enemy who are now overcome with dizziness.

[Sam]

Fut Sao Wing Chun is a complete system that contains internal concepts that are used for fighting and health. Fut Sao Hei-gung and Ng Moi Nei-gung are taught. James Cama Sifu teaches in NY. You can contact him at (718) 692-2281 JCama108@aol.com

[teazer]

unlike all the 'incomplete' systems around!?
So, what's your definition of internal?

[S.Teebas]

If you took a trip to China and polled the Chinese you would likely get that Tai Chi is superior..

Like it matters what the general population (who dont have MA knowledge) have an opinion thats worth listening to.... no.

[Sam]

Teazer, my intension was not to knock other systems but to speak of my own. Fut Sao Wing Chun's internal training utilizes Chi development through breath control, body linking, horse posture, spinal posture, Fa-jing, pulling, pushing, eating, spitting, emptying, filling, vibration energy and sensitivity. Each of the forms have their own Chi Gung techniques which enhance the fighting techniques. The weapon sets enhance the vibration energy for cavity strikes and pointing. Tork powers through Snake, Crane and Fox body movements.

[anerlich]

I read an interview once, can't remember details, where the interviewee said that in his opinion Taiji principles were superior to those of WC, but also much harder to employ in the real world.

To me this contains some truth.

As stated above, WC is an art purportedly designed to develop fighting competence in a comparatively short space of time. Whereas taiji is regarded by many as taking decades, or "three lifetimes" as once stated, before real competence is reached.

Opinions vary regarding the accuracy of those statements about both arts.

[teazer]

Teazer, my intension was not to knock other systems but to speak of my own.

Sounds Peachy!

[kj]

still_logicz,

Just want to round out a bit the "opinion" I expressed earlier in answer to your question.

I maintain that for most people, it will be difficult to invest oneself in two martial arts to the fullest.

Yet, my point was not to dampen your, or anyone else's thirst for exploration and learning, in whatever venues you choose.

We all bring with us the full range of our life experiences in understanding any given thing, including our chosen martial art(s). It is never a "bad thing" to increase our understanding of other things. This may well include other types and applications of movement. Could be through dance, sports research, figure skating, standing meditation, mechanics of tilling soil, rowing, taiji, other martial arts, or any of a thousand other things.

The notion of what-we-bring-with-us extends to virtually all areas and pursuits of life. Thousands of things - ethics, other philosophical or religious viewpoints, learning theory, general or applied psychology, social or behavioral theory. Even such seemingly disparate endeavors such as music, art, studies of nature, organizational theory, professions or occupational specialties, corporate industrial practices, studies of history, the criminal mind, wartime practices, and so on ad infinitum.

As John Muir wrote, "When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the universe." One of my favorite quotes, and apropos.

The key, always and IMHO, is to find "balance" in everything we do. To the degree we wish to excel in one thing, we need to balance our investment in it with all the other things in which we invest. The key, it seems, is to find synergy where possible, such that the whole of our experiences and understanding is greater than the sum of its parts. This will take us further than investing in such a way that our endeavors interfere with each other.

Time is our one precious and non-renewable resource. How to spend it wisely is a mystery and challenge unique for each of us.

Pensive regards,
- Kathy Jo

[anerlich]

As John Muir wrote, "When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the universe." One of my favorite quotes, and apropos.

Amen to that. Ain't it the truth.

[yuanfen]

True.But who is John Muir and why dont I see my connection to him? Missing chi sao or tui shou?

[still_logicz]

I've discovered that I no longer have the need to study both as I've found Fut Sao Wing Chun, which has QiGong techniques in it as well.

[yuanfen]

crimsonking advises:you need to get out of the city a little bit more, get back to nature ...
----------------------------------------------------------------most of my family are aboriginals- they dont have to read Muir to know about nature and its interconnectiveness. Thanks for the advice though.
yuanfen

[Grendel]

Originally posted by yuanfen
crimsonking advises:you need to get out of the city a little bit more, get back to nature ...
----------------------------------------------------------------
most of my family are aboriginals- they dont have to read Muir to know about nature and its interconnectiveness. Thanks for the advice though.
yuanfen
Hi Yuanfen,

Country boys just don't know nature the way the city folk do. :D I'd like to meet the big talking city folks on the John Muir trail, say in winter time. :)

Regards,

[anerlich]

It's disingenuous to act superior due to knowledge of facts peripheral or irrelevant to the main subject of discussion.

It's also disingenuous to demand answers rather than use your own abilities to seek information.

John Muir:

http://www.sierraclub.org/john_muir_exhibit/

[yuanfen]

Thanks- Now I know who John Muir is- and I have nothing but respect for him. But there are some complicated issues involved
which will take us off topic. I donate to Sierra Club projects and
have actually worked with Sierra club folks on some joint projects.
The issues that occasionally arise for me are in two areas- lets not get into debating this one. At times the Sierra club's efforts have conflicted with some tribes attempting to preserve their culture- there are aspects of endangered human species involved. Also citing T. Roosevelt as a conservationist has its problems. The inspiring figure for the Teddy Bear killed a heck of a lot of bears himself- was hardlya bear cuddling figure! I will keep the politics out.

[Grendel]

Hi Sam,

Originally posted by Sam
Teazer, my intension was not to knock other systems but to speak of my own. Fut Sao Wing Chun's internal training utilizes Chi development through breath control, body linking, horse posture, spinal posture, Fa-jing, pulling, pushing, and sensitivity.

I'm with you up to here, but what is "eating, spitting, emptying, filling, vibration energy" and how do they add to your Wing Chun?


Each of the forms have their own Chi Gung techniques which enhance the fighting techniques.
Do you see this as different from other Wing Chun families? I am taught that the beginning of Sil Nim Tao has chi gung qualities, but I'm not aware of them in the second and third sets, nor the jong, and weapons sets in Yip Man Wing Chun.


The weapon sets enhance the vibration energy for cavity strikes and pointing.
I'm not sure I am familiar with vibration energy. Is this the shearing energy of Taijiquan? Wouldn't that be a different energy than Wing Chun develops? It would be for my Wing Chun. I am leery of mixing Taiji and Wing Chun for the reasons that KJ earlier stated.


Tork powers through Snake, Crane and Fox body movements.
I'm not familiar with what you mean by these body movements. How are they significant for what you do? Are they again perhaps a reference to Taiji shearing energy?

Regards,

[dezhen2001]

what is "eating, spitting, emptying, filling, vibration energy" and how do they add to your Wing Chun?

Interesting if you can explain more... some termslike these are also used in Bak Mei to explain some breathing and body movement. Also they use the term 'tremor power' or 'shock power' to describe their Ging... :)

david

[kj]

LOL. My mention of John Muir was to appropriately credit the quotation, rather than offered as political commentary. But I think most readers knew that. :p

[yuanfen]

kj- understood- even though I live in the city and should visit the country...
"Sometimes I live in the country and some times I live in the town
and sometimes i have a great notion to jump in the river and drown"
Good night Irene- wherever you are!

[Sam]

Yuanfen, dezhen2001 is right on the money. Tremor or shock power could also describe vibration ging. The other terms deal with the absorption or expelling of energy. Fut Sao Wing Chun reflects back the opponents energy to hit him with his own bad intent while not contaminating your own energy.