Reflections on what "True Warrior" Really is.

[The Willow Sword]

Reflections on what "True Warrior" Really is.
Taking references from BUDO and the thoughts of master Ueshiba Morehei, and my own.

What the principles say is that in order to be a true warrior you must be in harmony with the heaven and earth,,,water and fire,,,light and heat,,,,yin/yang etc. The principles also state that you must be just, compassionate,,and peacfull. We learn these combative arts so that we can better understand ourselves as human beings and also to better understand what our relationships with others are as well. Can we really blend the art of peace with the art of hurting mameing and killing another? Since the philosphies of Budo and zen stem from the apparant hardship and atrocities of conflict,,war and death by violent means, can we as new people who do not experience this violence and war first hand,,TRUELY UNDERSTAND and master the essence behind the arts that we practice?
I meditate alot on this concept,,,,for i do not consider myself an inherently violent man,,but definately one capable of such violence. in related posts i have put down and spoke out against sporting events involving fighting(ufc,etc.) For to me and what i have been taught over the years,,that THIS in it of itself is wrong and a waste of time and energy. I get heated responses from those who participate or endorse such activity.
I feel it to be vital to our survival as intellectual and rational thinking beings that we heed the teachings and warnings of such masters that have gone through the realities of war and destruction and seek to steer us away from that path and lead a more peacefull life. To only use your abilities for the life/death situation,,and for healing.
I write all this and i REALIZE the contradictions that i make for i have issued challenges in the past,,,wanted to fight, and hurt seriously, members of this board who would insult me,,and in the past with whom would insult my teachers and system. i have met a challenge and lost. am i walking the path of a true warrior? are you? are any of us?
i would like to think that these arts of combat and philosophy serve to a better end other than to hurt and kill another.
there was a time when i wanted to enlist in the military,,,and experience for myself what these masters experienced so that i could truly understand where they were coming from. i then looked back on my own life and the violence that surrounded it and i thought to myself, " i have gone through my own war, a personal one involving family." "i wonder if this be as great a tragedy as fighting in a war.?"
without this becoming a "lets bash willow sword thread"
i would like to read others views on the concepts i have discussed. i hope that in THIS thread we can actually exchange thought and opinion in a peaceful way.
Many Respects,,,The Willow Sword

[Ryu]

Willow Sword, I do want to give my thoughts here. I'm about to train and spar so give me a couple hours or so to get back to the thread.

Ryu

[red5angel]

Often times what a warrior should be is expounded upon poetically and at times can be left to interpretation.
I think any good "warrior" should be respectful, honorable, and trustworthy. All of these things are important to be a good warrior as well as a good person, but a warrior has the ability to take life and so holds a power over others that your average person may to understand. Respect is necessary to be compassionate. honor is necessary to be allowed to wield the power to dole out life or death. Trustworthy for the same reasons.
A good warrior must be peaceful and compassionate for obvious reasons. A good warrior should seek peace, even if he must go to war to secure it. War must be the last and final step.
As a human being a good warrior must be both comfortable with the highest levels of peace and the highest levels of violence. I say to my self everyday, I do not want to hurt or kill anyone, but if I have to to defend myself and my loved ones, I will.
I joined the military, and these things occurred to me as I began my training. By the end of my first 6 months I had learned to use many deadly weapons to good effect, and with that responsibility there should be some ethics instiled and taught. Its why I think it is something important to instill in martial arts schools.

[fa_jing]

For now, it's just for fun, self-cultivation, and to answer the question "how good at MA can I make myself." One day, my life or a loved one's may depend upon my martial skill - but I hope that never happens. If it does, I think the combatative mindset that we cultivate in the MA will help me in the situation, whether or not it is empty-hand- it probably won't be.

I don't think much about being a "warrior." I look at life as a challenge and in order to be successful you must meet and surpass many challenges. I also look at life as a precious gift, think about it, what did you pay for your life? The creator gave it to you for free. It's like a freebie! Don't want to squander this great gift. Or look a gift horse in the mouth, start b!tching. when in fact, it is very possible to make the most out of it, for whatever that's worth (alot to me). And remember the golden rule. One aspect of the golden rule is don't make war unless you have to.
Sorry if I'm off-topic....

[Chang Style Novice]

I'm not a true warrior and don't really have ambitions in that area. So, am I just a complete yutz since I like to practice martial arts and would even dig competing a bit when I get good? I don't think so. I'm working on renaissance man, not true warrior.

[ewallace]

i have gone through my own war, a personal one involving family." "i wonder if this be as great a tragedy as fighting in a war.?"
I would definitely have to say no. I don't know your family's history or the violence that may have taken place, but I can be fairly confident in saying the you probably have not been walking down the street talking with your buddy and all of a sudden half of his body is blown off. Then the next day someone you look up to and respect takes a round from an AK 47 thru the head.

What I am saying is that while some violence may have occured, I am certain it isn't on the level as many vietnam vets and other soldiers have seen when they were in "the ****".

I think to be a true warrior, you must be able to accept your own death and mortality. A personal belief of mine is that in this day and time you really have to have an occupation that requires you to be a warrior. Spending a few hours a day in the training hall/kwoon/dojo doesn't count. After all, war is the first part of warrior.

[Fu-Pow]

The most important skill a warrior must have is a sense of humor.

[apoweyn]

i agree with chang. the word 'warrior' has connotations, to my mind, that don't apply. 'rennaissance man' works well enough.

in my opinion, being a warrior would require something that most of us don't face. the willingness (and perhaps the actual experience) to take a life. we can very easily say that we'd be willing. but unless we're actively putting ourselves into situations where such a thing is necessary, i think 'warrior' is the wrong moniker.

is the man that kills in defense of his wife or child a warrior? or a father and husband? my feeling is that he's the second, which is no less profound or important than the first.


stuart b.

[SevenStar]

Actually, what you stated, IMO presents all the more reason to compete in MMA or any other contact combat sport. Having been in the ring and knocked someone unconcsious, having broken someone's ribs and various other damage I've done has shown me some of what I am capable of doing. I KNOW how much damage I can cause, and choose not to abuse that power. I also have had my butt kicked, been injured, etc. which makes you realize your mortality and that you are not invincible. That being said though, I don't consider myself a warrior. I am merely a person who loves to train.

[HuangKaiVun]

A true warrior is in the arena of life actually DOING something, putting it all on the line.

Spectators merely admire - or flame - from afar.

[ewallace]

Kinda confused on your post Huang. Could you possibly expand on that or be a little more specific?

[The Willow Sword]

i would agree with you that what I have gone through in my life does not equal that of war and conflict in that respect. what i wonder about is having had my own violent experiences as at young age and realizing the tragedies but not being a part of the tragedies of the world(ie: vietnam,,ww2,,gulf,,) is just realizing it enough to truely understand the martial path and walk it?

MRTWS

[ewallace]

I think there is a huge difference between "walking the martial path" and being a warrior. You definitely don't have to go to war to walk the martial path and you don't have to walk the martial path in order to be a warrior. I think if you draw the line between those you will become clearer in the path that you are trying to walk.

I'm sure experiencing violence of any sort will make those that have the ability to impose injury on another person more aware of what they are capable of, and to have a more profound respect and appreciation for life.

[fa_jing]

http://www.xpres.net/~gmattson/ubbs/Forum2/HTML/001773.html


Very interesting article. I copied this post from user David in Cyberkwoon. The following are quotes from the above link.

6) Belief In Mission / Task At hand:

· If you do not believe in the mission or task at hand, or if the risks outweigh the ultimate benefit to you/society, you WILL hesitate in combat
· One who hesitates in combat, will usually levitate ( 12 feet under or be seriously injured


7) Faith System:

· You do not want to go into combat without having things resolved
· Both the ancient samurai and the kamikaze’s during WWII understood this important rule
· Even in our modern times, there are certain spec war teams around the world that are allowed to make peace with their deity prior to mission
· A strong faith system, whatever that faith system may be, MINIMIZES the fear of dying. As a graphic example of this, look at the events of September 11th and how the terrorists were not afraid to die and thus were able to carry out their mission. Also look at what is happening in Israel right now !!!!!!!
· Remember, combat is not the place for you to be making major adjustments to your belief system. You need to be concentrating on the task at hand and nothing else. Not to do so places yourself in jeopardy. "
-------------------------------------------------------
From "The Anatomy Of Fear",
http://www.xpres.net/~gmattson/ubbs/Forum2/HTML/001773.html

(BookMark for reading when you have the time, it's long but a must for MArtists!)

[dezhen2001]

i don't think of myself as a 'warrior', i think of myself as a 'person' :)

Hey, pulled this from another discussion forum ( www.mindfulwisdom.com )...i'm the 2nd one...


TaiYong
Posts: 125
(9/8/02 4:00:38 pm)
Reply
Re: "extreme training" Warrior DVD
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The warrior's mindset is not an easy thing to explain yet once the conept is grasped it is actually quite simple, a warrior is stubborn, proud, honorable, never quits, Never, in the face of a hopeless challenge a warrior gives a little smile, and wins, a warrior knows no limits to their ability, they constantly train with this in mind, after today I can be better or worse, but it is up to me, in the midst of great turbulence the warrior alone is still, in the midst of great fear and despair the warrior alone is calm and confident. A warrior is strong yet knows how to use true strength to yield, a warrior will not show his ability for others amusement, when others mock him that they are better or greater he is unconcerned for a true warrior knows a worthy opponent mere by the presence of the individual, the poise the look of the eyes, even by voice and fluidity of speech. Thus a warrior will not be disturbed by little children laughing at him. Warrior is fearless in every way, seeing life and death as natural he does not cling to the lost. A warrior does not fear his own demise, though this does not mean the warrior is careless with his life.

"The self confidence of a warrior is not the self confidence of the average man, the average man is hooked to his fellow men. The Warrior is hooked only to himself and even that, he relinquises with time. The average man seeks certainty in the eyes of others and calls this self confidence. The Warrior seeks impeccability in his own eyes and calls this humbleness."

"The difference between the two is remarkable, self confidence entails knowing something for sure. Humbleness entails being impeccable in one's actions and feeling's"

"I've been trying to live in accordance with your suggestions. I may not be the best, but I am the best of myself, is that Impeccability?"

"No you must do better than that, you must push yourself beyond your limits, all the time."

There is still a great deal to a Warriors mind that I haven't written of but to write of it all would not be within my ability for these are things I have picked up a piece at a time over years and years of searching and piece by piece they come together forming a picture however as of yet that picture is still incomplete, and perhaps it will always be that way regardless of how many pieces I collect, so you see few are interested in the mind of a warrior, because it is a lonely way, even though you have friends and meet ladies and what not, your still not like them you do not seek the material as they do, you only seek truth.


dezhen2001
Posts: 85
(9/9/02 2:01:52 am)
Reply warriors mind?
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Hi Tai Yong... agree on some points but not others

As for the first paragraph:

stubborn --- for some things (truth), for other things u just have to let go
proud --- "pride is a good thing but too much pride is foolish"
honorable --- what does that mean? what is your definition?
never quits --- sure, can always take a step back and reassess the situation

a warrior knows no limits to their ability, they constantly train with this in mind --- a warrior knows what he can and can't do. Then no need to worry about anything.

in the midst of great turbulence the warrior alone is still --- Why be alone? That's what friends, family (blood and gong fu) and companions are for. I'm not going in to self emposed exile for no reason...

in the midst of great fear and despair the warrior alone is calm and confident --- it's ok to be afraid and crap yourself. The real 'warrior' still moves forward when he is afraid.

A warrior is strong yet knows how to use true strength to yield --- agreed, strength comes from yielding

a warrior will not show his ability for others amusement --- why not? If someone is interested and wants to see your skill then you can explain it to them or show them...

when others mock him that they are better or greater he is unconcerned for a true warrior knows a worthy opponent mere by the presence of the individual, the poise the look of the eyes, even by voice and fluidity of speech --- very 'romantic'! You know your own level - what u can and can't do. No need to worry for something u can't do. As for opponents, never underestimate OPPONENT or overestimate YOURSELF.

Thus a warrior will not be disturbed by little children laughing at him --- who is? Unless it's a big gang of teenagers with ill intent...

Warrior is fearless in every way, seeing life and death as natural he does not cling to the lost --- accepting death does not mean u can't still be afraid. I know i can die and don't mind but i would rather survive to look after my family...

A warrior does not fear his own demise, though this does not mean the warrior is careless with his life --- Why say:- "i'd die for you"? I'd rather say "No matter what happens i'll SURVIVE for YOU"... but that's just me Dying is too easy...

more later but i have to go,
laterz,

dezhen
------------------------------------

sprry if it's a bit long and hashed out :p
david

[yenhoi]

First a warrior needs a war to fight in.
Although he cannot, he must be ready to die.
He must be willing and capable of killing.
Must he walk whatever this so-called vague thing TWS likes to talk about so much 'the [martial] path' ? No. All he needs is a rifle, a pair of shoes, and some rice and bread.

Living and dying by the sword is not being a true warrior, its BEING a japanese swordsman hundreds of years ago.

Training regularly and working a job in the modern western world is no where near BEING a 'true warrior' and I dout that "path" or any "path' that is anywhere near related, has anything to do whatsoever with the "martial path."

Warriors live, die, eat, sleep and **** war, it has nothing to do with any path that doesnt lead to the enemy, and only in very specific, individual, immediate situations does any sort of made up code of "ethics" or other random notion of 'justice' or 'fairness' or 'mercy' even come close to cossing wires with the TRUE WARRIOR.

The True Warrior cares only for the destruction of his enemy.


I dont think you gentlemen need to aspire to be anything other then nice guys who 'simply love to train."

[dezhen2001]

I dont think you gentlemen need to aspire to be anything other then nice guys who 'simply love to train."

well said :)

david

[FatherDog]

Seems to be an awful lot of argument over what a 'warrior' or 'martial path' is.

My simple take:

Unless you've fought in a war... you're not a warrior. Period.

It has nothing to do with your morals, your character, or your personal habits (although it can affect these.) If you've fought in a war, you're a warrior. If you haven't, you're not.

(I'll define 'war' here as any large scale military armed conflict, not just situations where war has been officially declared.)

Am I a warrior? Hell no.

Am I a martial artist? Yes. Why? Because I study a martial art. Period. It has nothing to do with my morals, character, or personal habits (although it's affected all of them to an extent.)

Anyone who disagrees with these definitions is free to. I'd be interested to hear why you consider a 'warrior' to be anything more or less than what I've said, though.

[ewallace]

No argument here. Just emphasis on the keyword "FOUGHT" in a war.

[The Willow Sword]

posted by yenhoi

" First a warrior needs a war to fight in.
Although he cannot, he must be ready to die.
He must be willing and capable of killing.
Must he walk whatever this so-called vague thing TWS likes to talk about so much 'the [martial] path' ? No. All he needs is a rifle, a pair of shoes, and some rice and bread."

we are all capable of killing,,does that mean we should?
Vague path? theres nothing Vague about it.
well i have all three of those things that you mentioned that a warrior needs,,,,,as i am sure alot of others here have as well and who are not "warriors" or martial artists.

" Living and dying by the sword is not being a true warrior, its BEING a japanese swordsman hundreds of years ago"

living and dying by the sword" is a term that states that if you live by the violence you will die by it. which is what alot of these masters realized and got out of before they ended up on a battlefield dead. Master ueshiba morehei is a prime example.

" Training regularly and working a job in the modern western world is no where near BEING a 'true warrior' and I dout that "path" or any "path' that is anywhere near related, has anything to do whatsoever with the "martial path."

i have always thought that a warrior encompasses all endeavors in life,,and is not just a warrior persay,,,,we have jobs and are productive to our society. when there is no war,,then what does the warrior do? they work. whether their trade is related to thier "martial path" is of no concern. so i can agree with you on this a little.

"Warriors live, die, eat, sleep and **** war, it has nothing to do with any path that doesnt lead to the enemy, and only in very specific, individual, immediate situations does any sort of made up code of "ethics" or other random notion of 'justice' or 'fairness' or 'mercy' even come close to cossing wires with the TRUE WARRIOR"

is this the type of "true warrior" that you are? then tell me,,do you sit at home and anxiously wait for the draft board to send you the notice? or to be called back into service?
made up code of ethics? even our military follows these "made up code of ethics" its what our country and freedoms are based on.

"The True Warrior cares only for the destruction of his enemy"

i would say that this statement is rather,,,,,Young,,,to make,,,,as it makes you look very naive.


" I dont think you gentlemen need to aspire to be anything other then nice guys who 'simply love to train"

are "true warriors",in what your view is, NOT nice guys who love to train?


MRTWS

[Ford Prefect]

It's all a matter of opinion. Just be the person you think you should be.

[ewallace]

What war would that be that you have TWS?

[The Willow Sword]

i dont understand the ? elaborate.

[ewallace]

Nevermind. I was looking at the first three items in this quote. You said you had three, and now that I look at it you probably meant the last three at the bottom.

First a warrior needs a war to fight in.
Although he cannot, he must be ready to die.
He must be willing and capable of killing.
Must he walk whatever this so-called vague thing TWS likes to talk about so much 'the [martial] path' ? No. All he needs is a rifle, a pair of shoes, and some rice and bread.

[Merryprankster]

Ah yes... the good old "walk the path of the warrior" post.

Utter bunk. I'll settle for being a responsible adult, who happens to train. We're a nation, for the most part, of desk sitters whose mightiest battles are with the copying machine. In fact, the "warriors way," isn't just bunk now, it's always been bunk. We'd have been better off demonstrating how to live as a respectful and respected adult, rather than building a warrior mystique--not that it didn't serve the same purpose, but it's sure elitest crap. I mean "we" as in the human race.

Who was it that said they'd never seen a glorious battlefield death... they all tend to be a little on the messy side?

[The Willow Sword]

i should have been a little more specific,,yes i do have a rifle a pair of shoes and there is more rice and bread in my fridge than i know what to do with.
MRTWS

[ewallace]

Like I said I think there needs to be a very big distinction between a warrior and a martial artist. They are not the same.

[ewallace]

I'll be up there at six. Make sure the bread is warm and the rice is spicey. And don't forget the sun tea.

[KC Elbows]

I suppose to answer the question of what a true warrior really is, you would need to address the concept of "warrior spirit", and whether that spirit can be cultivated without the experience of conflict, or if it even exists at all.

There's plenty of examples of men who were new to war outshining the veterans in their leadership and bravery. However, were those cases of true warriors, or were other factors involved?

It seems to me that war is a natural practice of humans. This being said, there are likely humans well suited to the conditions of war even though they have not yet experienced those conditions. Training can bring them much further. However, once they are involved in war, they will need something to allow them to go on once they realize that the men they are killing are more like themselves than the generals they take their orders from. Then comes the idea of the warrior spirit, and the morality of arms, and codes of honor, and such.

Once they convey their ideas to others, the ideas may turn into ideals held by non warriors for different reasons.

I'm really not sure what my point was, but it made me forget about my paperwork for a minute, which was good.

I'm not afraid to die, but paperwork scares me.

[The Willow Sword]

LOL:D you know i actually make a lot of sun tea.

i make alot of tea in general,,,Green tea to be exact. i drink that stuff like it is going out of style(hmmm i dont think it ever was,,,My god what am i doing????:eek: )

MRTWS

[MightyB]

This is exactly the boring crap that keeps most Martial "Artists" from getting laid.

Alot of people have already said Martial arts does not make a warrior. To the point, 'nuff said.

Yenhoi isn't being naive for saying that warriors kill. It's what war's about.

Chivarly was introduced to stop the knights from raping the maidens and murdering the peasants. Jigoro Kano created Judo to get the youth ready for war. Ueshiba was no nice guy either. He was fond of the challenge. Heck, he had his "enlightenment" after fighting with a kendo guy. The Samurai modified and adopted buddhism because they were impressed by the monks ability to disregard death. WWII Nanking China--Bushido code at it's best.

"Way's of the Warrior" are apologetic atempts to rationalize a desire to fight.

The only true Martial Artists are the ones with the balls enough to step into the ring. The biggest fear isn't losing. It's the fear of being wrong. "Oh, I'm invincible because I studied this and meditated on that." Yeah whatever.

You join MA to learn to fight. For whatever reason, it fills a void. Mostly because most martial artists are just a step above devout D&D players on the social pecking order. So you go to a dojo, kwoon, gym, and you learn to fight. You invest time. Sometimes that investment is wasted because you learnt bunk. So reasons are invented for learning that bunk. It's super spiritual this and karmic that, but try using it and you get your arse handed to ya. That's what a true martial artist knows. These are the guys with the kajones to step into a san shou or NHB ring. They put aside their fears and test their assumptions. Sometimes they find out they were wrong. But now they know and they can do something about it. The other guys will rationalize why they lost with meditative bullpucky. The true martial artist will realize that time spent learning BS is wasted and that more sweat in the gym means less of their blood in the ring. And believe me, if it don't work in the ring that it don't mean a thing- got lost on a rhyme, but, if it doesn't work there, then it definitely won't work on the street.

Put that in you collective pipes and smoke it.

The B

[ewallace]

I'm not so sure about that Mighty B. I think you are pretty close but NHB and san shou usually contain professional fighters.

As far as putting your skills to the test in one kind of format or another, I definitely agree.

[yenhoi]

TWS:

Made of code of ethics, etc.

I am saying that ethics, morality, etc, things of a similar nature are literally made up. They do not exist. They are usually JUST concepts used to convince people of one culture or sub-culture or something or other, that they are in some way superior to another culture or sub-culture or group of people. That allows for other justifications etc etc.

Say, lets go LIBERATE the holy lands from the pagans, anyone?

Martial "Path."

I see you posting often about walking some sort of path, that you sometimes call the martial path. I have yet to see any real meaning in this metaphor.


I do not consider myself a True Warrior. A Martial Artist, maybe, almost. Generally, true warriors rarely find themselves as "nice guys who simply love to train." Some do, I think your aikido hero did.

I would be truely sorry if i found myself in a situation where I had to dispatch death, not for my own survival, but because of what 'side' of the 'war' i was on. I wouldent be so arrogant as to say I am ready to kill, because I am not, and hope to never be ready. I am also not about to ascert that I am ready for death, because I will never be ready to die, but I am not afraid of death, or spiders, or the dark.

[ewallace]

Me neither but Rosie O'Donald neked scares the bejesus out of me.

[The Willow Sword]

excerpt by Kisshomaru morehei(ueshibas' son and successor) from the book BUDO, teachings of the founder of Aikido.

" In the spring of 1925 Morihei met a naval officer and master of Kendo. He accepted the officers challenge and defeated him without actually fighting, because he could sense the direction in which the blows could fall before the officers wooden sword could strike him. Immediately after his encounter Morihei went to a well to wash where he experienced a complete serenity of body and spirit."

his enlightenment came with the actions he took against or rather with the officer,,he was ABLE TO DEFEAT HIM WITHOUT ACTUALLY FIGHTING.

know your history before you quote it to me,,,,,i too know a thing or two about history. especially Osensei Morihei.


i so far like everyones posts,,,i get to see the perspectives of those who train in martial arts and who, whether they know it or not,,DO follow a warriors path,,,,,but not necessarily a soldiers path.

i do not believe that a warriors path be that of a path of war. Warrior to me is a deeper meaning than that of the literal one of the word itself. As will many who have written texts on the subject believe.

MRTWS

[Fu-Pow]

Mighty B-

I summarize what you just said:

"The most important skill a warrior must have is a sense of humor."

[dezhen2001]

LOL Fu Pow! :D wow - does that mean i am a warrior? :eek:

david

[DelicateSound]

No.

[HuangKaiVun]

ewallace, I'll give you a kung fu example.

I (and you) practice kung fu. We don't TALK about it, the way that troll on the "Internal" forum "Nick Lo" does.

Because I practice real kung fu for a living day in and day out, I'm not afraid to lay it all on the line when an immature idiot like Lo starts flaming me. He thinks I'm a fraud, I'll agree if he can face me straight up and PROVE IT without shooting or stabbing me.

A warrior in life, be it kung fu or otherwise, is willing to put his ability and reputation on the line when trolls or challenges come his way. Some days he wins, some days he loses. ALWAYS he gets back up for more.

I hope that's clearer for you, ewallace.

[DelicateSound]

Yawn.

[dezhen2001]

long time no see DS, hope all is well mate :)

david

[yenhoi]

HuangKaiVun

If I moved to arizona could I be your student?

[{i^(]

"Mostly because most martial artists are just a step above devout D&D players on the social pecking order"

I put the demd 12-siders away, Ok? Stop messing with me.

I am a true worrier....like most people nowadays....

[rogue]

I'm just a dad and husband who practices karate. That's enough manly identity for me.:)

[MightyB]

First, lighten up.

Second, read about O'Sensei. Read everything you can find because the guy was a bad arse in his youth. There are numerous instances of him taking and giving challenges. (One that I found particularly interesting was a referral to a match he took with a South American Wrestler. He also challenged and defeated the Japanese Military's bayonet team. Heck, he wanted them to use live blades, but they used a shinai equivalent for safety) He liked to fight. Heck, his dojo was called "Hel l's dojo". He'd probably puke if he witnessed a modern Aikido school.

'nuff on this boring topic already.

[Former castleva]

" In the spring of 1925 Morihei met a naval officer and master of Kendo. He accepted the officers challenge and defeated him without actually fighting, because he could sense the direction in which the blows could fall before the officers wooden sword could strike him. Immediately after his encounter Morihei went to a well to wash where he experienced a complete serenity of body and spirit."

Doh,Willow.
I was going to refer to that. :)
To add something more into your quote,I guess it went like that the kendo master got tired and maybe "understood the folly of his ways".


Well let´s see when it comes to samurai they had specific moral codes for war in which they were a lot.In the original rise of the samurai they became fighters as means of self-defense.
During times of "relative peace" samurai took time to study intellectual things like literature,tea ceremony etc.
As Ueshiba states,true meaning of samurai is "one who serves the power of love",not very different from actual "one to serve..." response you may get.
What I believe is an important if even interesting point is that with internalizing certain budo philosophy,one can significantly lessen the amount of war in this world (one one´s own part,even though he/she can´t save the world of course) or at least live up to not creating any which generally means,more harmony.

[Brad]

In my opinion practicing martial arts for a living does not make one a "warrior". Warriors to me would be soldiers who put their lives on the line constantly like the people we've got stationed over in Afganistan. Or even people here in the US who might live in a particularly nasty neighboorhood and decide to stand up to the crack dealers/gang members operating in their town. There's plenty of other examples, but I don't have much time(and no, fighting a stranger from Hawaii because he called you names is not one of those examples :rolleyes: ) . I dedicate a pretty big chunk of my life to teaching and promoting the martial arts, but I'm defenitely no warrior. Neither is HuangKaiVun, Nick Lo, TWS, or most of us here I think. It's not an insult. If everyone were warriors the world would be in complete chaos, lol.:rolleyes:

[scotty1]

Brad, Mighty B, Sevenstar, E Wallace and Merry as well as a few others I can't remember have got my opinion on the nose.

All this Martial Path stuff is a bit wooly, don't you think? It's only fighting. :)

In the past, when fighting was a life and death everyday occurence and war was a hundred year thing then a lot more could be made of fighting. But now? Don't think so.

Picture a history book, in one hundered years time.
Flip to the section headed 'Warriors of the period 2000-2002'.
Entered in it are special ops personnel in Afghanistan, those guys living in the jungle in the Phillippines fighting terrorists, and Willow Sword walking the martial path in Texas. :D

Walking the martial path indeed. :rolleyes:

[Ryu]

Well Hello! I am back :D

Hmm well this thread got too long too fast. Let me see if I can put my opinion in on this.
First though..... the WW2 Nanking bushido at it's best, quote is somewhat offensive. The samurai class had been long dead way before that time, and the "bushido" that Tojo's guys kept sprouting was basically just twisted bunk so that they could get the soldiers to blindly follow any orders. Really not too fair to compare Tojo's "code" with the original code of bushido.

As far as the "warrior stuff" goes. Well the word "warrior" can be a relative term. It conjures up different images for different people. In the purest sense of the word, warrior indeed means a soldier who fights and lives through many a war. That's it.
On an intellectual side, the term "warrior" is often presented to represent almost a ....... hmm..... "fighting scholar" type of persona. Someone who has messed real life survival skills with ethical study and practice. (ahem ahem... the "police" are actually supposed to have this type of persona to a degree :D )

Basically you can think about it like this. The idea of the "noble warrior" is an important one for our society as human beings. It gives a lot of positive aspects to our cultures regardless of how "true" such a persona was in the past.
The difficult thing is seperating reality from fiction. MightyB is absolutely correct in stating that it is hardwork, sweat, and blood that makes a good fighter and NOT meditating on the harmony of the universe. :)
However, I do think that an ethical aspect to any kind of violent training is key in its humanity. Whether that be training soldiers, police, NHB fighters, etc. Ethics are a human thing, they are important for our survival as a species. One can actually make an argument that nature itself has a certain "ethic" to it, and going against it creates lots of problems. But I digress.

The "warrior path" is perhaps the wrong wording to use. The responsible adult who trains and has decent values IS what one should be trying to strive for. Even the "kung fu monk" ideal is someone who trains to fight hard, but upholds the virtues of the land, etc. That kind of person would hardly go around claiming he's on a "warrior path." ........ Maybe on a "personal path." But nothing more than that.
I would never go around and say to ANYONE "i'm on a warrior's path." :cool: LOL, I WOULD seem like a complete nerd, and never get a girlfriend!

But in all seriousness, my friends know me as a responsible guy who avoids a lot of the crazier things in life, and who has a strong ethical and philosophical focus. My training doesn't reflect anything but brutality and realistic fighting skill..... but my studies and actions reflect otherwise.

And I think that's a key no one has really touched upon.

The "personal martial arts path" is more realistic then the "warrior's path." But semantics rule.

Take care,
Ryu

[apoweyn]

Willow Sword,


when there is no war, then what does the warrior do? they work.

yeah, but what do they do when there is a war? that's the question.

as ryu said, though, semantics rule. and you or anyone else can essentially use the word 'warrior' to mean whatever you like. my personally feeling is this: at best, it's over-romanticized marketing. and at worst, it's something of an insult to people who actually do consciously put their lives at risk by choice on a daily basis.


stuart b.

[MightyB]

Ryu is right in saying that the Nanking reference was offensive. My point in saying that was to say that maybe associating with a warrior image or "sense of values" isn't what we as martial artists want to do. ROK's in Vietnam would wipe out a village if they took any sniper fire near it. The US will blow up a building full of people celebrating in a wedding reception if we think that a terrorist might be there. Nazis justified murder as just following orders (as per a warriors/soldiers code).

Didn't mean to offend anybody (except Chi Hippies and former D&Ders-- I kept getting killed before I could make a wicked cool character back in the day).

The B

(my last post on this topic, I think...)

[The Willow Sword]

In this New Age we have coined a term called "The peacefull warrior" which is what i think Morihei and others have tried to create to counter that of the blood thirsty out for death and destruction warrior type.

True that these masters were hard individuals,,,,but through their journey down the warriors way they, at some point ,had the revelation that what they were doing was frivolous and served no purpose other than to facilitate death and destruction,,and for no other purpose than to serve the needs of the powers that governed them,,,for political reasons.

these individuals sought to teach us that this was NOT the way a "true warrior" should lead thier lives,,but rather they should follow a life of peace and love and harmony and fight only when necessary. in a way this is self riteous and elitist,,but what is wrong with having a self riteous and elitist attitude if your path be that of a peacefull one? We are not sheep and will not be totally passive in the face of aggression,,,but maybe we should avoid that aggression as much as we possibly can and not attract it to us.
it is a heated subject and has been debated over the generations and is always countered by those who feel that being aggressive and linear is the path to follow.
maybe what these masters are trying to convey to us all is that whenst you walk the path of the martial or the warriors path,,you have a great responsablility,,you are a caretaker and a shephard,,and that this power that you have is not to be utilized in frivolous pursuits nor should it be used to qwell the rights of others who are not as powerful as you. these are AGE OLD precepts,,and is one of the main teachings in ANY martial art you take.
I will take the approach that a "true warrior" is one who knows when TO draw his sword and knows when he should keep it sheathed. figuratively speaking im sure all of you will understand this quote.

MRTWS

[fa_jing]

TWS - I am far away from you to be making a judgement, but I would say from your posts that you are a warrior at war against your own demons. It is a spiritual battle you are fighting and you may find a parallel in the physical plane with your martial arts, but it is only that, a parallel, an analogy, helpful but not an exact parallel I'm curious to hear your response to this conjecture.

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by yenhoi
I am saying that ethics, morality, etc, things of a similar nature are literally made up. They do not exist.

Well, aren't WE the existentialist? :D

[The Willow Sword]

dont we all have some battle we face within ourselves? or do we repress it for fear of seeing ourselves how we truly are?
i question my martial path as well as the way in which i walk it.
like my old teacher has said,,,"the internal path is the longer and harder one. "

MRTWS

[yenhoi]

Embrace the void fa_jing.

:D

Cherish the empty.

[fa_jing]

And pay your bills. On time, or they'll charge you extra. ;)

[Ryu]

Originally posted by fa_jing


Well, aren't WE the existentialist? :D

:D fa_jing, this was funny :D

MightyB, cheers. :) No offense taken at all.

TWS, fighting personal demons can be the coolest battle. :cool:

Take care guys,
Ryu

[type01]

Why is everyone concerned with promoting themselves as a "warrior" and trying to invent a list of criteria "true warrior" to compare themselves too.

to my understanding
Kung fu is supposed to mean something like the "effort/to do"

wu Kung fu is supposed to mean "martial effort"

in english we call it martial "arts"

so why are ppl calling themselves warriors when all that we are, are just ppl who study a different form of "arts" that involves not only the expression of the mind but the body as well. to put it simply we practice a different kind of art which happens to be a study of a physical pursuit and lil bit violent, but essentially we are not warriors were artists.

[The Willow Sword]

is calling ourselves a "warrior" what i speak of is the warriors path and the philosophies therein. this has been a good thread and i am glad that we are aboe to have intelligent discussions.
its much better than the other sh!t that goes on here.

MRTWS

[Dreadnaught]

I haven't had time to read this thread, so I don't know if this topic has been brought up yet, however

http://www.darkzen.com/Articles/zenholy.htm

is a book review of "Zen at War" by Daizen Victoria. I think anyone interested in zen should give it a read if you have the time. I'd like to know what you all think

[omegapoint]

CAUTION I USE BIG WORDS AND PROPER DICTION, ALBEIT SOMEWHAT FLOWERY. HEMINGWAY WOULD HATE ME.

I was in USAF Spec Ops for 6 years. I saw time in the Gulf War, Haiti and Getmo. 99% of us will never be true warriors because the term itself denotes you are preparing for or have gone to war. Seeing the devastation war can cause will make you not want to be a warrior. Still if your job entails that you be a fighting man, then you got to do it or go to prison. Real warriors like Miyamoto Musashi experienced the carnage that even a mano-a-mano confrontation could exact. He killed dozens of men in his lifetime before he reached an epiphany. He finally realized that all life was precious, and none should be wasted unless yours is in jeopardy.

If you've ever used your acquired hand-to-hand skills against an unknowing "mark" or opponent, whether they instigated the confrontation or not, you would understand what guilt truly is. Anyone with a conscience is wounded deeply, even if the outcome was "favorable" for them. This is a state of being that can never be duplicated in any training. We can only hope our training will prepare us for a self-preservation scenario.

To trivialize violent conflict by "sportifying" it is a crime to the professional soldier. Training is one thing. Training to completely end something is another. If you think sparring prepares you for self-defense then I think you are being disrespectful to yourself and others. If you do sport for fun then cool, but it can never, ever train you to be a "True Warrior".

True Warriors, with the exception of those servicemen who learned overseas in the 50s-70s, would never equate competition with life or death. Those who do don't have a clue or any valid reference point. True warriors realize that violence, war and the hate one person can have for another are things to be avoided. Some of us have had to train to be warriors, most of us go through life trying to emulate this by training in a blurred image of reality.

I doubt most of you could even begin to describe what a true warrior is no matter how much Kung Fu you've taken or how many times you've "rolled". Well, then again there are always exceptions (Rickson Gracie comes to mind). If you want to be a warrior then you don't know what that term means. If you are training to be a warrior and find some utility in that purpose then you might be a sociopath.

A study done by the DOD sites the fact that before conditioning was implemented (WWI-Korean War), and guys were not trained to be psycopathic killers, only 15% OF THE SOLDIERS FROM THE "GREATEST GENERATION" PARTICIPATED IN ACTUAL GROUND FIGHTING (WITH GUNS NOT UNARMED, FOOLIOS). The majority of soldiers and marines cowered, cried, isht themselves, screamed for their mommies or ran like hell. Some just stared off into space in total shock while less than 20 % actually fought. No wonder it took so long and casualties were high. May have been part of the weeding out process anyway.

With a conscience mankind is better off. After the Vietnam war crime rose like 500% or some ridiculous figure. The government was releasing sociopathic killers into the populace to work, run things, and raise future psycopaths. Sad, but this is what the alcohol guzzling warrior cultures of the west have produced. Blame short-sighted politicians (maybe they did it on purpose too). You need Chaos to Impose Order! The Grand Experiment has been Crowned a Success (Annuit Coeptus)!

Warriors??? Get friggin' REAL!!!

[The Willow Sword]

I totally agree and thanks for the post.

Many respects to you sir. TWS

[Merryprankster]

Excellent post omega, for what are probably an entirely different set of reasons than The Willow Sword thinks it is excellent...but it is excellent nonetheless!

Not that you need my approval.

[guohuen]

Wow. That was concise Omegapoint. Add heroin to the mix and it explains some of the trouble.
My phyciatric exit interview from the Rangers, 10/28/76.
How are you today young man.
Fine sir.
Don't let my rank intimidate you son.
OK sir. (looks around on desk to see name plate as the Colonel is not wearing any rank on his lab coat)
Do you know where you are?
Yes sir. Fort Lewis sir.
Do you know what todays date is.
Yes sir. It's Oct. 28th 1976.
No it's not.
Ohh?
It's the 29th. Does that upset you?
No sir, but it might upset a few clerks that have been processing my ETS as I've been putting the 28th on all my paperwork.
(looks at watch, looks at calender, starts adjusting watch)
(long uncomfortable silence)
(I got up and left)
(It was the 28th)

[The Willow Sword]

Great Gouhuen,,,,thats a classic. :D

[scotty1]

Great post Omegapoint.

I and others have been saying that this path of the warrior stuff is crap, and you have provided evidence.

"If you think sparring prepares you for self-defense then I think you are being disrespectful to yourself and others."

Could you expand on that though? I mean, I spar, and I think that I am better prepared for a physical confrontation because of it. Why does that make me disrespectful to anyone?

[KC Elbows]

The limitation of sparring is that you set up a scenario where you know you are fighting. In reality, someone bent on attacking another person might not do so unless they knew that person was unaware an attack was coming. While sparring does well to deal with obvious fights, it does little to do with the unknown, and with an ambush, the first exchange might be the last, so by the time you realized you were in a fight, you might be dead.

I believe that's where a lot of people put themselves through situational awareness drills. Sparring seems to be only a beginning.

[scotty1]

Yeah totally, I agree.

Obviously sparring will only enable you to deal better with a certain type of attack. But if you know that someone is going to attack you or if a situation is escalating, if you are used to full on sparring and the rough and tumble of it then you are definitely better prepared for a fight on the street than not.

I'm not saying that sparring is the anwer to becoming invincible, all I'm saying is that it helps. That seems obvious to me. And I fail to see why that reasoning makes me disrespectful.

I dunno, maybe I misunderstood Omegapoint's point. If the point was sparring does not make you a warrior, and thinking that it does is disrespectful to warriors, then true enough.

But sparring definitely helps you prepare for a confrontation, I believe, otherwise why do it?

[Former castleva]

What keeps peaceful people with positive attitude not walking the "warrior´s path",why is that necessarily "crap"?
If we consider that what we originally understood as warrior´s path was to create peace trough martial way,right?
That´s where the conversation began from,if I´m right.
Even though one does not kill dozens of people and shed blood all around the place these days,should he strive to do that?
Those mistakes have already been done,and if masters of the old reached their idea of enlightment or proper ways trough living trough those hard times and had to look death into an eye at times,should we go follow them to be recognized as warriors? (Why not in a way...) I think one can walk one´s own path as warrior´s path if wants to,that´s OK with me (and I don´t see any reason why such person would brag about it,some parts of this conversation has been giving the idea that one would brag about that.) If someone asks him if he does? He says "yes,you could say so".Fine.

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by scotty1
Great post Omegapoint.

I and others have been saying that this path of the warrior stuff is crap, and you have provided evidence.

"If you think sparring prepares you for self-defense then I think you are being disrespectful to yourself and others."

Could you expand on that though? I mean, I spar, and I think that I am better prepared for a physical confrontation because of it. Why does that make me disrespectful to anyone?

Sure, man. What I meant to say was that if you believe sparring will train you for self-preservation then you are wrong. You and your sparring "partner" go in with the intent to win a game of tumble-about or slap-tag. You are not gonna mug each other, pull out a concealed weapon or surprise attack him/her.

If sparring is the majority of your MAs training then the martial aspect has to be excluded from the terminology. Sparring teaches ma-ai (combat distance) and other principles, but it is a long-drawn out affair.

Real life-threatening confrontations should be abrupt and decisive. That's all I was trying to say.

So I mean disrespectful, in that you and your partner are fooling yourselves if you think this gives some measure of real-world training. Just an opinion. I like to spar, too, but my intent may be different than some.

And yes, I also meant disrespectful to the real warriors that came before you and passed on their art with only one purpose in mind; to survive so that their families wouldn't starve to death.

[omegapoint]

Thanks to you all for the kind words. It's a pleasure to talk to martialists like yourselves.

[rogue]

Good post Omega.

Most fail to realize that full time soldiers are a very recent thing or that battle only happened at certain times of the year in certain places. Most "warriors" were just farmers who wanted to get home. I was shocked to find out that Uncle Sam will spend millions of dollars and over 20 years making someone the most lethal thing on Gods green earth and then just discharge them with a salute and the number of a doc at the VA hospital.

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by rogue
Good post Omega.

Most fail to realize that full time soldiers are a very recent thing or that battle only happened at certain times of the year in certain places. Most "warriors" were just farmers who wanted to get home. I was shocked to find out that Uncle Sam will spend millions of dollars and over 20 years making someone the most lethal thing on Gods green earth and then just discharge them with a salute and the number of a doc at the VA hospital.

I would agree and disagree. When I say warriors I could be talking about Cyrus the Great of Persia's troops, Shaolin monks or 'Nam era cats. When I say that there was no room for mistakes I really meant back in the day when fighting wasn't so sterile and mechanized. For example a simple Bushi on the Ryukyus could not afford to die, since his wife remarrying and finding another bread winner was unheard of.

I will agree about the Vet thing though. I have a friend who is in complete renal failure possibly due to his service as an Army Chem-Ops specialist. The VA has given him the runaround for the last 4 years. Now at the age of 30 he barely has one functional kidney and suffers from renal Hypertension, which of course gives you High Blood Pressure, and is on antihypertensives like he is 70 years old. He just needs one test and one operation. Ridiculous. You know when you're in the "war" they tell you over and over that you are "Government Property" for a reason. It's the truth....

[scotty1]

In reference to your reply to me Omegapoint, fair points.:)

The game we play in training is not often the game that's played in the real world.

(Corny, but I couldn't think of a less long-winded way to put it).