Chest-caving?

[fa_jing]

So what's with these MA that cave the chest in? Supposedly to present a smaller target? What effect does that have on your structure, movement, elasticity? I've seen some pictures on the net that just look like guys with humps in their backs - but these were clearly not experts. So, someone please enlighten me!

[Fu-Pow]

I think that this is really bad. It shifts your center of gravity up into your chest and I've heard it puts pressure on the heart. The classics say that you should "swallow the chest." But I think this simply means that you keep the chest relaxed and let the chi sink down. Some styles take the interpretation to mean to "cave in" the chest. I think this is incorrect.

[GLW]

Good thinking Fu Pow.

Classics for Taijiquan talk about sinking the chest. However, this is as with most things in Taijiquan, relative. Compared to a style like Zha Quan (Cha Quan) or Pao Quan - the relaxed position of Taijiquan WOULD be sunken...but not with the collapsed bad posture that so many use.

Collapsing that way impedes the lung function - it blocks the heart, lung and pericardium meridians, and tends to degenerate the spine and shoulders.

Good posture is healthier and yields higher abilities as well.

[GeneChing]

There's a fine line between collapsing the chest and emptying the chest - these words are somewhat elusive since we lack a common terminology here. But for what it's worth, there's a technique of emtying the chest in Taiji that hides your center in push hands, redirect thst energy. To be honest, I don't really understand the physics behind it all but when I do it right, it seems to work quite well, so I've been playing with it in Xingyi lately.

I've also heard it defined as a difference between fighters and non-fighters. If the chest is thrust out as many amateur wushu players might, it opens the diaphragm as a target. If the chest is coiled, more like a Wing Chun player might, the diaphragm target is harder to hit. Both postures give different ways for generating power and protecting your soft spots.

[{i^(]

It might depend on the art being looked at- maybe a southern style? SPM?

I think it's for 'through-the-back' power or some such. The structure is similar to WC, but it can deteriorate the shoulder cartilage, IIRC (maybe if done wrong). This was a warning I read somewhere in regards to southern dragon, but I'm none too sure about it.

I suppose you could try it out with your WC, see how it operates power-wise, but don't keep it without training.

[TaoBoy]

In SPM you don't so much collapse the chest as you round the shoulders. When done to the extreme it doesn't look like great posture and could definitely cause some problems. However, the rounding of the shoulders is very important to the style and SPM practitioners are taught to end confrontations quickly so the posture is not held for long. Also, it does not affect the breathing if used correctly.

Just an observation from my training.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Wingman]

When you put your elbows close to the centerline (in Wing chun), your chest will naturally "cave in" [for lack of a better word]. The chest may "cave in" but not to the extent that it looks like you have a hump at the back.

[scotty1]

"SPM practitioners are taught to end confrontations quickly so the posture is not held for long. "

That's fine but what about training for hours a week?

[MightyB]

ESPY TV put out a video about a Southern Dragon Stylist in New York City's China Town who did this. It's been a long time since I've seen the vid. but I remember them referring specifically to chest caving and that long time practitioners will get permanently rounded shoulders.

[Helicopter]

We 'close' the chest (round the shoulders) in our snake drills/style(and elsewhere), the chest is 'opened'/expanded when striking for power.
I guess if you're practicing defence and attack evenly you won't get deformed.

[GeneChing]

I've noticed a lot of top SPM & Wing Chun practitioners have great backs, the backs of fighters - a lot of spread between the shoulder blades, good muscle development, very powerful. I can't say if it's a result of the training or the reason that they went into the style. Certainly both styles pull a lot of power from there rounded shoulder postures. I'm not sure if that qualitifes as caving in the chest, but I could see where it could be misinterpreted as so.

[fa_jing]

Well, in Wing Chun we sink the shoulders, and clamp towards the centerline with our elbows. But it doesn't look like a rounded back so much, from what I've seen. I will try to find the photos on the web, I think it was mantis guys, seemed very extreme to me.

[HuangKaiVun]

As far as GeneChing's Taijiquan technique of "Rollback, Push" goes, Jiang Jianye has a good explanation.

When I trained under Jiang, he constantly told us "Sink".

By that, he meant for us to drop our centers of gravity against incoming pushes. This, in the context of Taijiquan, often resulted in putting one's weight on the back leg and squatting on it.

The resulting chest caving was not the prime reason why we could avoid pushes. It was the "sinking" of our centers of gravity that allowed us to dispel incoming forces. The chest just "went along" for the ride.


If you spar regularly against guys (particularly non kung fu guys), you CAN'T develop rounded shoulders.

Every time they swing that roundhouse punch, they'll nail you. That's even more so when they have a reach advantage.

Besides, the sets of Wing Chun and Dragon and Bak Mei feature wide chest expanding movements to defend against those long looping attacks - and thus keep the shoulders straight as well.

[fa_jing]

HKV - You know too much. ;)

So you think that the shoulders need to be straight for defense? I do think the deflection of a punch with the shoulder is an important defensive move. You see this alot in western boxing, and my Sifu is good at it. Is that what you were referring to?

[HuangKaiVun]

"Not necessarily" to both your questions.

Wing Chun has high blocks that stop incoming roundhouse punches. For example, the "Biu Tze" set has the reverse tan sao that is used just for that purpose.

If you do that move right, the shoulder HAS to straighten. Otherwise you'll miss the block AND get hit in the head. This is especially true when fighting a much larger opponent who has a much greater reach.

[fa_jing]

I myself do not have rounded shoulders - mine are tight all through the upper back. Anyway we are taught that the shoulder doesn't move forward from the chest during a movement. It will move forward because of the tangent of the rotation in unison with the entire torso. I find that the tan sao works well with the proper structure, which is to wedge your elbow towards the centerline and to have a slight rotational intent in your wrist, like the turning of your palm up. I don't pay much intention to whether I'm extending the shoulder,the tan sao is so structurely sound that will always absorbe energy coming from the correct angle. It won't stop a hook-trajectory type punch, though.
"reverse" tan sao?? I am not familiar with this terminology.

[HuangKaiVun]

Learn the Biu Tze set, fa-jing.

Trust me, it's THERE.

[dre]

Originally posted by fa_jing
So what's with these MA that cave the chest in? Supposedly to present a smaller target? What effect does that have on your structure, movement, elasticity? I've seen some pictures on the net that just look like guys with humps in their backs - but these were clearly not experts. So, someone please enlighten me!

I do 7* Mantis. We do cave the chest, in a way. In fact we are starting to do that more and more.


Really, it's not our chest thats caving, just that we roll our shoulders forward to strengthen the baisic gaurd and decrease target area.


"How does it effect movement, structure, elasticity?'

Quite dramatically , for me. I usually do not begin with my shoulders in, but when I get the chance to take a hold of my opponent , I do roll the shoulders (or when blocking or in mid-strike fest , of course) which seems to add a LOT to the act of sucking your opponent into the all-important close range.

As far as elasticity goes- it gives you less reach when your shoulders are rolled- this leads your opponent to not consider the fact that you can un-roll and strike with full range at any time, which can be a surprise.

[252aCtUa|*]

i think what you are talking about is what we call " the sholders get behind the arms"
basicly its not "caving the chest" it is rolling the sholders forward to structuraly align the bones behind your arms... if the bones are not aligned your technique will be empty and you will lose much power when it is reverberated back into your own body.
ever through a punch and not put your sholder into it? its weak and sometimes it feels like someone jammed your sholder. this was the secret to bruce lee's 3 inch punch.. he compressed his body then released all his energy in one shot by rotating his sholder cup to get behind his arm... you can see it in many of his demo vids.
in the "so called" internal arts like xing yi , bagua and taiji, the chest apears to be hollow because the sholders are rounded forward.. the chest is not caved... and it has more to do with structure than with creating a smaller target.. it goes right along with the drawing back of the head and the prying of the waist pulling the coccyx down and forward to straighten the spine.. when your power is delivered into your opponent your body should be aligned in such a way that every ounce of your force is transfered into his body... if your waist is not tucked your spine not straight or your sholders not "behind" your arms your power will be insufficient.. if all those things are not in order there is weakness in your structure.

:D

[gazza99]

" Sink the chest and pluck up the back. The chest is depressed naturally inward so that the ch'i can sink to the tan-t'ien [field of elixir]. Don't expand the chest: the ch'i gets stuck there and the body becomes top-heavy. The heel will be too light and can be uprooted. Pluck up the back and the ch'i sticks to the back; depress the chest and you can pluck up the back. Then you can discharge force through the spine. You will be a peerless boxer."

The back is rounded a bit, which will concave the chest slightly, but "caved" my be a bit extreme.

Gary

[{i^(]

Could be a question of lineage/interpretation. I've also seen a pak sau recommended for such circumstances- but this takes excellent timing.

[mantiskilla]

this is one of the better posts i've seen in a while.:)


"Wing Chun has high blocks that stop incoming roundhouse punches. For example, the "Biu Tze" set has the reverse tan sao that is used just for that purpose.

If you do that move right, the shoulder HAS to straighten. Otherwise you'll miss the block AND get hit in the head. This is especially true when fighting a much larger opponent who has a much greater reach."

i dont know much about Wing Chun, but i believe i know what you are speaking about with "Biu Tze", and I would agree that it would not be structurely sound for use against a looping roundhouse type of attack. However, my preference is to avoid any sort of block at all against such an attack, especially if the person is bigger than myself. Either avoid and help his follow through on the punch, or simply step inside. If someone has a reach advantage i believe it is important to move inside immediately. I dont like to use "force against force" on any technique unless it is on my terms. I'll break the bridge when i choose, or i wont be there.
As far as the rounded shoulders, if you move your elbows in and out front of yourself, your shoulders naturally "round" themselves. No way around it.:D
________
Drug testing kit (http://drugtestingkit.org)

[Buby]

The rounding of the shoulders and swallowing of the chest has two main functions. One function is to protect the centerline. The other is for directing the energy from the back and shoulders out to the elbow and wrist/hands. This posture allows you to generate lots of power from a very short distance.

As for it being bad for your health, there are lots of people who live well into their 80's and 90's who come from styles that have this posture. I can see it causing problems if held incorrectly, but that's true of everything.

Take care,
Buby

[fa_jing]

I know I've seen this used in Bak Mei, in a movie. Chest both expanding and collapsing. I don't think Wing Chun does this like some of the other Southern styles. Doesn't mean it shouldn't ;)

[meltdawn]

Lung Ying perspective

When the arms are extended forward, the shoulder blades will open. If the spine is curved (tun/swallow), it opens the angle at which the arms extend from the torso, and can make the shoulders appear rounded, and therefore the chest concave. Thus we say "drop shoulders", to eliminate the up and over rotation that can become a bad habit with overreach.

This is but one "method", if you will. Dragon does not collapse the chest.

[HuangKaiVun]

Agreed, buby, but one thing -

Often the opponent won't just let you simply dodge his roundhouse punches.

Guys often grab you as well. They won't let you duck and weave when they've got a hold of you, particularly if they miss their punches. That's why that technique comes into play as well.


The published pictures of Cheung Lai Chung (Bak Mei grandmaster) features him with shoulders that are NOT rounded.

Cheung's back and shoulders were VERY erect.

[Buby]

"Often the opponent won't just let you simply dodge his roundhouse punches.
Guys often grab you as well. They won't let you duck and weave when they've got a hold of you, particularly if they miss their punches. That's
why that technique comes into play as well."

- Pardon me, but I never mentioned anything about dodging punches, so I'm a bit lost.


"The published pictures of Cheung Lai Chung (Bak Mei grandmaster) features him with shoulders that are NOT rounded. Cheung's back and shoulders were VERY erect."

- I have that book you are refering too and I think it's pretty difficult to see CLC's posture. As a matter of fact a hakka brother of mine once commented on how deceitful that pic is when in regards to CLC's posture. First off the pics are very old, not to mention that they are in black and white. It's not so much that you round the shoulders, but the posture gives that illusion (sp?). Also, not every move is done in the round posture. In the jik bo we practice our front hand shoots out in Bil Jee (we are not in HHBB and our back and shoulder are erect) then right after we shoot our rear hand (like in a one-two boxing combo), now we sink and use HHBB( or round posture).

I hope I've explained myself clearer.

Take care,
Buby

[Andrew]

Have to agree with 252aCtUa|* and Buby.

The shouldering rounding is only part of the whole equation.
Its about opening and closing. I study SPM and we do
'round the shoulders', and when you drill its usually with
rounded shoulders. But when you fight the shoulders only come
forward when you strike this is part of the way you generate your
ging tang. As others have described, the shoulder rounding
is part of the compression of the spine. To curve your spine,
you need to tuck your hips forward and your shoulders come
forward. This creates a 'soft', explosive strike, a compressive
strike. You can generate another whip strike by expanding your
spine, by its uncompressing, its expansion you have an explosive
opening force. So you have two strikes created by compressing
or expanding the spine. This is part of an internal arts. Oh
well in my experience at least. Thats why you see these old
masters throwing people accross rooms. The rounded shoulders
is just a manifestation of this power, or a training power

[fa_jing]

The Bak Mei guy in "Prodigal Son" was doing the opening and closing, it was very obvious that the curved shoulders, etc. were just a transitory movement, not a static posture or way of standing. He seemed to used this opening and closing of the chest to generate power.

[KC Elbows]

We also round our shoulders, and I would agree, it is a transitional thing, not a held posture. As has been said before, it is opening and closing.

[HuangKaiVun]

I'm sorry, buby.

I reread my post and it was a discussion with mantiskilla, not you. I DO agree with what you said.

My error.

[Buby]

No probs man.:)

Take care,
Buby