Do the armed forces teach ground fighting?

[phoenix-eye]

Don't know if this is an dumb question but I thought it would be interesting to know...

My question is to anyone who has been in the armed forces and trained in unarmed combat - to what degree, if any, are groundfighting skills taught?

From what I have seen (limited) - any demonstration or footage of soldiers doing unarmed combat training seems to almost exclusively deal with striking range and possibly some joint locks for disarms.

If ground fighting is not taught to any real degree what does this say about its perceived usefulness in a life or death situation? My guess would be that the soldier would want to finish any confrontation with some focused strikes rather than go to the floor and be at the mercy of the other guy's comrades.

If this is actually the case then what implications does it carry for us civilian martial artists? If ground work is of little value to the army then is it of little value to us?

As I say - I don't know so this is all hypothetical. I could be talking total BS.

[scotty1]

Makes sense to me mate, but I'm sure a life or death battlefield situation carries additional factors which may make groundfighting less necessary.

I personally can see the value of groundfighting in civilian life as opposed to battlefield life.

[ewallace]

If ground fighting is not taught to any real degree what does this say about its perceived usefulness in a life or death situation
Well, just ask the infamous "Hockey Dad". Oh wait you can't because he is dead. He was "ground and pounded" to death. If he had some ground training we might have been able to ask him.

[Ford Prefect]

Army basic training has adopted some BJJ, and the Army Rangers train BJJ basics to a large extent. I also beleive the Marines are incorporating it. If you go to the army's web site, you can see guys grappling in fatigues during basics. I remember one clip of a nice guard pass to a hammer-lock.

[MightyB]

http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/3-25.150/toc.htm

[MightyB]

http://www.ejmas.com/jnc/jncindex.htm

[ewallace]

It also depends on what unit/branch they are in. There is no one program for unarmed training for all branches of the armed forces.

[LEGEND]

As u can see from the links above that the army and special forces have adopted BJJ and boxing/muy thai strikes as a major focus in their hand to hand combat curriculum. BUT please note...they really don't work on this alot! Most of their training is with weapons and scenarios. From what I've heard the BJJ and other hand to hand discipline training is for INSPIRING a WINNING ATTITUDE ala Vince Lombardi.

[Ford Prefect]

Legend has caught the correct.

[Merryprankster]

Legend is right more or less.

Is this a troll attempt? Seriously--I'm not trying to be a jerk, just asking that you admit it if it is...

The requirements for personal self defense are a bit different than those of being a good soldier. I don't want them training H2H. I want them shooting people, blowing them up, learning unit tactics and how to function as an integrated whole. H2H is a small small focus compared to weapons.

Warfighting and Selfdefense--unrelated in almost every way.

[phoenix-eye]

Merryprankster - it's not a troll attempt. As I said - "could be a dumb question" - its just that the army people that I know get some pretty sparce training in unarmed combat and they didn't really have much clue.

I was just interested to see what they actually do on a more general basis - so thanks for the answers.

Sometimes I think weird thoughts....... but you only learn by asking.

[phoenix-eye]

Also - point taken about H2H being a minor issue in comparison to weapons training. However, you do expect (at least some areas of ) the forces to be at the cutting edge of all ranges of combat - long and close range.

[ewallace]

I do know that some US Marine Recon troops have been training pekiti-tirsia kali in the Phillipines along with the Phillipino marines.

[JOHNNY]

When i went to boot they were beginning to introduce this belt system which you earn a belt as soon as you passed certain close combat requirments. We learned many mixed martial arts and take downs. Also some pressure point training. This past summer at officer candidates course they taught some more hand to hand fighting. They dont teach that much but just enough to survive. Our recon units learn sambo and get more hand to hand classes than us.
JOhnny
Semper FIdelis

[TaoBoxer]

Sambo? BJJ? Whats the matter? they couldn't find someone to teach them Matrix Fighting?? What a crock. THat stuff is as effective for a field soldier as a deadly Spork kata.......

[dre]

Why in the hell would you groundfight in a battle? That sound slike a prime way to get bayoneted in the stomach.

[Shadow Dragon]

Here is what little I know.

The Armed Services evaluate a lot of different MA for H2H on a continued basis.
Hence a lot of people claiming to have taught the Special Forces when in reality the only demoed it for 2 Days.
The H2H training will naturally reflect the current trend/development in MA..

Most H2H training I understand is done to keep troops fit and in "fighting spirit" during non-active times.

H2H might be fun in fatigues, but try it as a fully equipped trooper that carries gear, flak jacket, kevlar helmet, etc and all of a sudden the game looks less fun.

Cheers.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by dre
Why in the hell would you groundfight in a battle? That sound slike a prime way to get bayoneted in the stomach.

who knows? maybe because they realize that at some point during some type of mission, they may need it. Also from what I understand, the H2H is used to instill agressiveness in recruits. A friend of mine is in the marines and is taking part in the marine corps martial arts training. They have a belt ranking system and learn the basics of many things. they train pressure points, basic throws and escapes, striking and some bjj. for weapons, they train the bayonet and of course firearms.

[African Tiger]

Dre: people lose/drop weapons in combat all the time, making H2H training absolutely necessary.

Imagine being caught and held as a POW, knowing you'll most likely be tortured to death in a matter of days. They've taken your weapon, your shoes, your warm coat, etc, and you have only your mind to defend yourself. Most of us military guys had to learn SERE (Survival Escape Resistance Evasion) training for just such a scenario. Most of this training involved ground/H2H combat.

TaoBox - just what is your problem with Matrix training? Are you talking about going around town, wearing a ridiculous outfit, hanging with Larry Fishbourne, and saying crap like "I know...kung fu!" I happen to be a student of Al Garza's Matrix System, if that is what you are referring to, and I can tell you that it is very effective.

[dre]

Seven Star :

"who knows? maybe because they realize that at some point during some type of mission, they may need it."

Maybe, but still , seems like a waste when on a battlefield it moght get you killed.

"Also from what I understand, the H2H is used to instill agressiveness in recruits."

Boxing would do that, and at a lower price to the government :) Traditional Ju Jutsu might be good (since it was desinged for battle) , but modern BJJ would be unsuitable, since it places you at the mercy of other, standing enemy soldiers who are all heavily armed.

Don't get me wrong, BJJ is great for bouncers, security gaurds etc, when you're out to just protect someone/somthing without wanting to get sued for using exessive force or whatever. When you have soldiers though, you want themto break some faces.

"They have a belt ranking system and learn the basics of many things."

This joggs my memory, I read about it somwhere. . .

Tiger :
"people lose/drop weapons in combat all the time, making H2H training absolutely necessary."

I think I'd agree with that. But if you have no weapons, cahnce of surival and remaining uncaptured are probably slim. Anyway this is secondary to the point, I don't agree with GF being inducted as a primary h2h primary defence.

"Imagine being caught and held as a POW, knowing you'll most likely be tortured to death in a matter of days. They've taken your weapon, your shoes, your warm coat, etc, and you have only your mind to defend yourself. Most of us military guys had to learn SERE (Survival Escape Resistance Evasion) training for just such a scenario. Most of this training involved ground/H2H combat."

Why groung though? I mean, you are surrounded by people that hve no cumpution of killing (in general). So they see you trying to westle some gard, bam, you're dead. You've just been shot. Or stabbed by the knife that the gaurd carries. I'm trying to get at the point that GF leaves you vulnerable to other people (that is, other than the one you are fighting) and weapons , both of which are everywhere in warfare.

These things don't exist very much in civilian life though. In a drunken bar fight, no one will bayonet you in the back, but someone will during a battle.

[SevenStar]

from what I've seen, it's not primary, just supplementative. primary is throwing and controlling. then striking and ground work. If they are on a stealth mission and only have their hands and knives, they need to be able to take people out without causing a commotion.

It looks like you're assuming that you will always be surrounded by the enemy. you may be sneaking up one someone, or you may be trying to secure a base that has been for the most part evacuated. there will not always be many many enemies around when you go to the ground. Also, it looks as if you're assuming that the soldier will want to take someone to the ground. Don't look at it that way. look at it as if you have been taken down and need to fight your way up before his buddies come along. With proper ground training, they are better prepared to do that.

[dre]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SevenStar
from what I've seen, it's not primary, just supplementative. primary is throwing and controlling. then striking and ground work. If they are on a stealth mission and only have their hands and knives, they need to be able to take people out without causing a commotion.

OK, Thats fine, I thought it was their prime thing. I should make it clear that I'm talking about your average grunt here, not delta force (which should probably be trained in several MAs, one probably isn't enough) or Spies or Secret Service. So what I am saying is predicated on the idea of a simple field battle, not some more arcane operation.

"It looks like you're assuming that you will always be surrounded by the enemy. you may be sneaking up one someone, or you may be trying to secure a base that has been for the most part evacuated.

OK.

there will not always be many many enemies around when you go to the ground.

Better to plan for the worst, anyway, I am talking about your average GI Joe.

Also, it looks as if you're assuming that the soldier will want to take someone to the ground.

If his primary MA is BJJ he would.

Don't look at it that way. look at it as if you have been taken down and need to fight your way up before his buddies come along. With proper ground training, they are better prepared to do that.

I agree with that statment.

[LEGEND]

One of the scary stories that was told was watching the scene from Saving Private Ryan...when the german and us soldier were ground fighting over a KNIFE. Eventually with the german mounting and stabbing the US soldier. The basic LINE drills does not offer resistance...BJJ and BOXING offers it! BJJ is simple to tackle somebody and then CUT HIS THROAT while controlling his limbs. Also in scenes like WE WERE SOLDIERs numerous US had to fight against the VC...some ended on the ground wrestling with the VC...eventually who got MOUNT got the STAB in. Overall...it's just hand to hand training which is 10% of your military training...don't look too much into it! The LINE stuff was boring and very ineffective for the SOLDIERs. So they took it out!

[dre]

~Fencing, baby!~

[omegapoint]

The Marines teach a hybrid form of MAs: Judo and BJJ for throwing and grappling, with some Muay Thai added in for shin kicks and such. The core of their system, which is a legitimate MA, is based on Okinawan White Crane Karate. You've seen people mention previously that they or their Marine friends are learning a system of fighting that relies on, among many things, pressure point tactics. The ranking system consists of belts (dan system). A "lifer" could train in this system until they reach a BB level.

[Merryprankster]

dre,

You're kind of missing the point. BJJ training is going to help these guys get UP. Nobody is going to wallow around looking for a submission down there. It's not self-defense. It's a battlefield. Completely different issue. Why does everybody assume that BJJ means "let's stay on the ground?" What it really means is "I can control the range of the fight better than you."

[jimmy51131]

One thing a lot of people forget is that you may be on the ground because someone put you there - then what do you do?

Another thing - of course you don't want to go to the ground when a bunch of people are attacking you, but it takes grappling to stop the takedown. Punching alone is not enough.

And let's not pretend that you'd be better off standing, surrounded by 5 oopponents anyway ...
Your fighting one guy, his pal comes up behind you - guess what, Now you are grappling. THAT's what happens when a bunch of people attack you at the same time. Don't act like it's going to be some Bruce Lee movie where everone waits their turn to get punched in the face by you.

The Military knows this & that's why they prepare their soldiers for everything. It's hilarious to see all these back seat military experts on here.

Every time I hear people with no ground skills talk about this type of thing, it's always, "you don't want to be there anyway!"

Then you come into a Judo or BJJ school, or meet up with a wrestler and in 10 seconds, your flat on your back kicking and flailing about.

Punch, kick, ground fight, do everything or eventually, someone will force you to be some place you don't know how to fight.

[dre]

Merry : I agree with that point, calm down :)

Jimmy :"And let's not pretend that you'd be better off standing, surrounded by 5 oopponents anyway ... "

Actually, lets pretend that. I have an amazing system that I could use against such an attack :it's call run-your ass off Karate. In any event, even if I could retreat, I could (maybe) blind two people before I'm killed by the other three. On the grond I'd just die without any collateral damage being done to my attackers. It's a small counter- but I feel it is worth the effort.

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by omegapoint
The Marines teach a hybrid form of MAs: Judo and BJJ for throwing and grappling, with some Muay Thai added in for shin kicks and such. The CORE OF THEIR SYSTEM, which is a legitimate MA, is based on OKINAWAN WHITE CRANE KARATE. You've seen people mention previously that they or their Marine friends are learning a system of fighting that relies on, among many things, pressure point tactics. The ranking system consists of belts (dan system). A "lifer" could train in this system until they reach a BB level.

Yes I've been practicing my invisibility and it seems to work real well on KFO. Posting this isht again for the ADHDers. Grappling is fine to know, but it should never be primary. Survival knives hurt!

[jimmy51131]

You must have good aim ... or super human powers.
-or-
You're probably some teen age troll with an over active imagination.

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by jimmy51131
You must have good aim ... or super human powers.
-or-
You're probably some teen age troll with an over active imagination.

R.I.F b i tch!!! You don't understand what you read. My brother is in the Marines. Look it up instead of speculating. Does a TROLL post over 100 times on the same forum (actually I've been posting on this sorry arsed forum for years now). Maybe I need a name like JImmy or Bubba No Teeths- beeyotch!

BTW I'm 30+ years old, dumb s h it ! PP/Vital Point fighting includes grappling and hitting large vital areas and cavities. You obviously don't know s h i t!

There is an article on it in a well known MAs Mag stoopid a s s!!! F u c k y ou!!!!!

[JOHNNY]

What i learned in boot is not enough in my example. You need to keep refreshing for it to stick in which the Marine corps does not do. Same goes with urban combat training (cqb and mout ) training in wich most wars are likely to be in. I am lucky that we have had it now two years in a row but most units dont. What they have taught is helpful but nowhere near proficient enough
johnny
semper fidelis
:cool:

[SevenStar]

yeah, my guess is that's why they started the classes and the ranking system. It offers you the chance to continue training H2H past boot camp.

[JOHNNY]

Originally posted by SevenStar
yeah, my guess is that's why they started the classes and the ranking system. It offers you the chance to continue training H2H past boot camp.
Even the Marines who are on that do not get the training unless a billet opens up. I as a reserve have done more training than in that area then my active duty cousin. Believe the do not do enough to be proficient. I wish they did.
johnny

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i havent even bothered reading the entire thread, but i thought an email i got from my buddy fit the topic ... .

> hey mike...
> got hurt myself but it comes with the territory... I am going back to pre ranger school and when i make it through this time there is talk of me getting my own fire team...which means i will be in charge of 3 muther fukers and make them a killing machine...well gonna make this short till i know this goes through write me soon
> Your partners in crime,
> Bishop and Lili


________________________________________

cool . ..im glad you got to read my email and responded to this address.
>
>that sucks dude, how did you get hurt? how are you reading your email . .. from the base or are you on leave?
>
>i think it's cool they'll put you in charge of some fresh meet. you should tell them that being a human kick shield is part of the training. when they ask what that has to do with shooting slap them in the mouth and make em do push ups.
>
>what made you decide to join the military? was it just for the insurance? what branch are you in anyway?
>
>how is the other hand to hand there? i imagine you're liking the wingchun more but i have never seen what the military offers to know for sure. read a pamphlet that the trainers are supposed to read before training the soldiers and it seemed to make allot of seen though.

________________________________________________

hey mike,

it was pretty much the inusranse but it has been fun... the armys martial arts is gracie style jujitsu...it's not bad but the thing is in combat the last place i would want to be is on the ground but ohh well t o logic when i said"serve and protect the constitution of the us" I live at home and have a computer the army gave me...but its for me not work...really tired have to get some sleep...keep us posted on your surgerys

Bishop and Lili

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

oh ... i mentioned wc because he said he was learning it on the side in a previous email.

[jimmy51131]

Are there moderators on this forum?

Listen, mr. reasonable.
I was talking to dre, you brainless moron.

[TaoBoxer]

I was refering to sitting 5 feet off the ground while cameras pan 360*..... I didn't know there was a "Matrix" style out there......

Has anyone ever seen a movie called "The Devils Brigade?" It was about the first commando unit of the OSS, forerunner of the CIA. They had some interesting scenes of their h2h training. A friend of mines dad was in the unit. It was nasty stuff.

[Kristoffer]

:rolleyes: