External vs. Internal

[Mithrandir]

Hello everyone,

I often see arguments saying saying WC (WT or VT) however you spell it is an internal art. Some say it is external. What in your opinion makes an art external or internal? In case your wondering, I don't have an opinion and am honestly seeking information. I don't believe in putting my art in a little box by saying it is this, or it is that. It is what it is. The question is not if you think it is internal or external, but what makes a martial art internal or external according to classification.

Thanks,
Mithrandir

[Repulsive Monkey]

This subject eternally arises that is External versus Internal, and it rarely gets a concise answer because in all respects there isn't one. After all you asking a group of people here who do not have full mastery over their arts but have a varying degree of experience withihn there chosen fields, and therefore speak from where ever they are on their path.

However to answer your question from my limited experience I would have to say that Wing Chun is primarily an external art but does have some elemenst of Internal, however compared to Taiji or Bagua then Wing Chun is definitely external.

[Mithrandir]

I wasn't looking for an opinion as to if people think WC is internal or external. My question is this;

What makes an art internal?

[Sui]

hi Mithrandir
i believe all arts are both in my experience,b/c they are both used.i tend to find that something like buddhism,christanity,muslim etc are arts of the internal for their practises are of that nature.this is what i think is internal martial arts.am i wrong to think so.

p.s i do not think religion is a internal art but the indeviduality of that religion is.

sui

[teazer]

The current vogue options for the I/E debate would be -
1. Internal/External to China in origin
2. Internal involves some kind of mental/psychic/energy training
3. Internal focusses more on fine structural mechanics involving whole body power generation & rooting.
4. Int involves more soft, flowing & non-confrontational. Ext more direct, hard, confrontational stuff.
etc etc.

Given that most styles contain a bunch of different facets that cover both sides of the spectrum, it's like looking at an apple & saying it has to be sliced one way versus another. The statement has little to do with the apple & more with the people involved.

[CLOUD ONE]

What does the spirit of w.c/w.t mean? if you travel the journey inwards then I would say that is internal if you just mimic the moves and the techniques without spirit then it is external.
So does your art have internal and external?

Like Sui said all M.A have internal and external.
So I would say to your specific question what makes an art internal is' the practioner'

[teazer]

As you say,

What does the spirit of w.c/w.t mean? if you travel the journey inwards

All hail imprecise terminology!!
How exactly do you "travel the journey inwards" & where do you go when you do!?

[Atleastimnotyou]

External arts are things like Karate and tae kwon do. They stress techniques and flashy movements. They are also concerned with building muscle. In external martial arts, your ability diminishes when you get older. Internal martial arts (tai chi, wing chun.. etc) are concered with other things. Such as listening to your opponent. (how much force they are useing, where they are pressing). Occupying the line. Neutralizing your opponents energy and utilizing it. Internal martial arts stress that building muscle is of no value. Your skill improves the older you get. it doesn't diminish.

For example:
If an external martial artist punched you in the torso, they would use there muscle to bruise you and maybe break a rib and knock the wind out of you. If an internal martial artist hit you in the torso, the would puch with energy from the ground and you may or may not have a bruise. they would send their energy into specific areas to get the most damage. Probably the spine.

the difference between an external and internal martial art is real and vast. it is not just the way you veiw your art.

[reneritchie]

From China vs. from abroad
Taoist vs. Buddhist
'Shaolin' school vs. 'Wudang' School
Secret/closed vs. Public/open
Spirit/breath/intent vs. Muscle, bone, sinew
Micro-muscle vs. gross muscle
Refined power vs. raw power
Whole body vs. localized muscle
ground vector vs. local vector
Taiji/Xingyi/Bagua vs. Everything else
What 'X' says vs. what 'y' says

and the list goes on...

In truth, neither internal nor external, no matter how you choose to define it, are more noble, complicated, sophisticated, or better than the other. A good martial artists is a good martial artist and will typically beat the snot out of a bad martial artist no matter how much the bad martial artist holds his nose up or clings to fancy, trendy labels.

IMHO, WCK is about the center, about the balance. We apply a little to overcome a lot, whether that be a little alignment of our whole body against a lot of local strength in an opponent's limb, or a little local power against an over-committence of our opponent's whole body strength. We walk the line, neither clinging to nor being bound by extremes, and we fit whatever circumstances call for, labels not withstanding (who needs 'em, anyway?)

RR

[teazer]

The question is an interesting study in group dynamics though.
If the person values 'internal' as a concept, often the definition will change so that 'your' style is always a member, along with a select few. Just part of the standard dichotomous analysis prevalent in heirarchical societies!!

[desertwingchun2]

what if we changed the wording to hard fist vs. soft fist ?? is that comparison along the same lines as internal vs. external ?? just a thought

[reneritchie]

Why not just boil it down to the marrow - "me" vs. "you"

RR

[[Censored]]

Why not just boil it down to the marrow - "me" vs. "you"

Exactly. :D

Internal martial arts stress that building muscle is of no value.

How low is your stance?

BTW, does anyone know what Yip Man said when asked "Is Wing Chun an internal martial art"?

[Atleastimnotyou]

Originally posted by [Censored]

How low is your stance? [/B]


yes leg muscle is developed as a result of continuous practice of the forms. but when i said what i did, i was thinking more along the lines of pushups and weight lifting.

[[Censored]]

yes leg muscle is developed as a result of continuous practice of the forms. but when i said what i did, i was thinking more along the lines of pushups and weight lifting.

That is interesting. Because I've have seen Hsing-I players doing pushups and Taiji players lifting weights.

[Mithrandir]

Originally posted by [Censored]

BTW, does anyone know what Yip Man said when asked "Is Wing Chun an internal martial art"? [/B]

__________________________________________________ __

Censored,

Now that is an interesting question. Is there anyone out there with an answer?

Teazer,

I'd have to agree with this one. Answers to this question seem for the most part self-serving.

Thanks for your responses,
Mithrandir

[Mithrandir]

Originally posted by [Censored]
[b]

That is interesting. Because I've have seen Hsing-I players doing pushups and Taiji players lifting weights.

__________________________________________________ __

Censored,

Agreed. That Taiji Sphere seems like it has a little weight to it. I bet a spear gets pretty heavy after practicing for an hour or so, among other training methods.


Just some thoughts,
Mithrandir

[reneritchie]

I can guess...

St: "Is Wing Chun Kuen Noi Ga?"

YM: "Noi Ga? What the heck is Noi Ga? That's not a term used in martial arts in the region I come from."

Now, if you asked him if Wing Chun Kuen was Yao (Soft), Sung (Relaxed), etc. I can only guess he would have nodded, said "Hai...." and taken another sip of his tea. Asking if its "Noi Gung" might be more interesting...

FWIW- If you ask some of the remaining elder generation if WCK is Internal, they're more likely to recognize the word due to its proliferation, and more than a few would probably say 'yes', but their definitions would probably vary as well.

RR

[Atleastimnotyou]

lifting weights tightens up muscles. and that is no good for internal martial arts. tense muscles in something like tai chi is like pinching off a hose. It stops the water from coming out.
the reason why lifting weights is bad (from an internal martial arts prospective) is because:
1. your training yourself to resist force, so when met with force, you'll tend to want to use muscle
2. it makes you tense (because it tightens your muscle), and you have to be as relaxed as possible to feel the energy.

[Atleastimnotyou]

the tai chi sphere is heavy. about 35lbs. but you don't deal with the weight with your arms. you use your whole body. when you throw it up, you have to use your legs and get the energy from the ground. Whole body unity is very important.

[[Censored]]

They didn't use Noi Ga or any direct equivalent? How did they categorize their martial arts then? How very primitive! :D

Seriously though, I have heard that the question was posed to Leung Sheung. Does anyone know what his answer was?

[reneritchie]

Atleastimnotyou - Interesting. I've always heard that too, yet I've heard some say the opposite (that it can stretch and limber muscles). Do you have a medical background? If not, does anyone hear have a physio/medical background and can you give us the scoop?

Also, what about base fitness, and what about injury rehab? In some cases, weight bearing/training, even body weight training, is required in life beyond MA. Also, in the 'good old days', many MAists were farmers who routinely used nice heavy metal tools and did grunt work on their farms, and even MA weapons like the Kwan Do could weigh a ton (or just feel like they do). Did that make the Chen villagers poor martial artists?

While I don't personally weight train (though I have done BWE in the past for rehab), I often wonder how much is true about weight training being hazzardous and how much is just BS passed down through suceeding generations.

I'm pretty sure WCK doesn't *require* weight training, but I'm not yet convinced its detrimental. Either way, I'd like to know more.

RR

[reneritchie]

[Censored] - No, to the best of my knowledge the vocabular was quite different and those terms came South with Taiji and the like. How did they catagorize their arts? Probably Bak (Bei, North) and Nam (Nan, South), with Northern being anything from a village even 5 miles higher up ;) They may have used Noi Gung and (Ng)oi Gung, but I'm not sure those were distinctions of art or just aspects of them.

Did Leung Sheung train Wudang Neijiaquan? If not, how would his answer be different than yours or any other WCK lovers? 8)

RR

[Atleastimnotyou]

RR
developing muscle as a result of work, like farming or anything else isn't very bad. what is bad is acuiring muscle through resistance training. in the former you can relax much easier and to a greater extent because you haven't been training your self to resist force. but in the ladder you have been training yourself to resist force. so relaxing will be more difficult and it is harder to relax back down to the same extent.

Note: i am not saying weight lifting and muscles are bad... just from an internal martial arts point of view it is. It is very good for external martial arts.

[AndrewS]

Rene,

you know my views on the subject.

At least,

put bluntly you're wrong *and* a hypocrite. You're manipulating a 35lb iron weight for training and claiming you don't lift weights. You *do* lift weights, using a movement pattern commensurate with your taiji (hence the 'no arm thing', though you are going to have to use the shoulders and upper back as stabilizers in certain positions), and with a rep and rest protocol also commensurate with certain training goals.

Use some common sense and kindly call a 30 some pound iron ball a weight.

Later,

Andrew

[[Censored]]

Could Leung Sheung, living in HK, be qualified to address the question? I think so, and certainly more qualified than most of the posters on here. His answer could be different, for all the usual reasons that different people give different answers. Greater skill, greater experience, greater insight, etc.

So lifting weights is OK, if you use your legs, or if you are a farmer. LOL. I'll keep that in mind when I'm working with my hoes. :)

[reneritchie]

AndrewS - Yup, though I don't recall if we ever discussed free weight or machine training vs. body weight training? I have a friend who used to coach national level power lifting who now does MA and says he finds BWE better suited to the demands of MA (I wonder if that's a range of motion thing?)

ALMNY - I would say my views on the subject are much like my views on Hei Gung. If you know how to relax and align, you can probably lift what you want in a relaxed, aligned manner. If you don't, probably doesn't matter what you lift (or don't lift.

Rgds,

RR

[Atleastimnotyou]

andrew. I was talking about lifting weights, not an object that has weight. the point of the tai chi sphere isn't to give you muscles and make you a buff adonis.

Censored. you obviously didn't get the point.

developing muscle as a result of work, like farming or anything else isn't very bad. what is bad is acuiring muscle through resistance training. in the former you can relax much easier and to a greater extent because you haven't been training your self to resist force. but in the ladder you have been training yourself to resist force. so relaxing will be more difficult and it is harder to relax back down to the same extent.

[AndrewS]

At least,

from what I understand, the point of the taiji sphere is to give you a heavy weight to play with which will *require* you to use body to support and manipulate according to the mechanics of taiji.

It's a form of resistance training. Resistance training should be manipulated according to one's goals- speed-strength, strength-endurance, power, hypertrophy, cardio, etc.

An olympic class runner, shotputter, wrestler, boxer, powerlifter, and gymnast are *all* trained with weights, just in different ways.

Rene,

right now I do kettlebells and low rep bodyweight exercises, and plan to cycle back to some freeweights in a month or so. I got up to 340 hindu squats and 85 hindu pushups on the Furey routine and I rocked my joints. Hi-rep anything is dangerous. I'm working with a trainer who learned from Furey and Tsatsouline (Mike Mahler)- his experience, and that of Frank Shamrock and the Lion's Den, is that the very hi-rep stuff may build good condition but it will mess some people up very badly.

I think I'll eventually settle into a cycled program of kettlebells, bodyweight exercises, free-weights (low rep), and olympic lifts. Right now, I'm really only just learning how to train.

Later,

Andrew

[teazer]

is that the very hi-rep stuff may build good condition but it will mess some people up very badly.
[/B]

as well as being very boring!

[anerlich]

I was talking about lifting weights, not an object that has weight.

About to paint himself into a linguistic corner.

A weight is a weight is a weight. You lift it or you don't.

The Wing Chun pole is specialised and specific resistance training. If that "violates internal principles" or some such pseudo-esoteric rubbish, then someone's about to hit a big existential crisis when his training reaches that point. Either that or accept unadorned reality.

The taiji sphere sounds like a big kettlebell.

Andrew S and Rene are correct. atleastimnotyou is incorrect.

[anerlich]

I trained in taiji/xingyi/bagua for a bit over five years.

We used to run and do truckloads of calisthenics as part of our training, including thousands of the pushups that atleastimnotyou decries. It was about the fittest I've ever been, and I'm in pretty good shape now.

The head of that school was, at the time (early '80's), one of the most highly qualified gwailo practitioners of TCM in Australia and made his living as an acupuncturist and chiropractor as well as Kung-fu teacher. He was built like a powerlifter and regularly practised breaking techniques, but his softness, sensitivity and ability to manipulate the anatomy of his opponents were the equal of anyone I've ever worked with or seen.

His definition of "internal" was an art that was based on the principles of TCM - Xingyi on 5 element theory (with some interesting but IMO hard to accept relationships to herbalism with regard to the animal forms), Bagua on the 8 trigrams, Taiji on yin and yang. Didn't leave much room for anything else, surprisingly enough ...

Whose opinion re training would you give more weight (no pun intended) to? This guy or someone who by his own admission only uses the basics of taiji to "enhance" (not plug the holes in, oh no! Because how could there possibly be any, my Sifu told me) another MA?

If you regard "soft", "yielding", "not force against force" as "internal", then judo, BJJ, and many other grappling arts fall into the category as well.

In many ways, the whole debate is marketingese to give practitioners some sense that the style they are practising is qualitatively different from brand X being practiced at the school down the street. Often the difference is far less marked to those with unprejudiced eyes.

[yylee]

Originally posted by [Censored]

BTW, does anyone know what Yip Man said when asked "Is Wing Chun an internal martial art"?


I know

he said (in Cantonese with 2 ton FatShan accent):

"Doug, Doug, ... Doug Law!"


-- In English it means: "okay, okay, ... it's okay!" -- :D :D :D

[anerlich]

does anyone know what Yip Man said when asked "Is Wing Chun an internal martial art"?

My guesses:

1. "Pass"

2. "Can I still leave the show now and take the $32,000?"

3. "African or European?", after which his inquisitor was cast into The Valley of Eternal Peril

[{i^(]

"some interesting but IMO hard to accept relationships to herbalism with regard to the animal forms"

So, THESE are the 'flowery hands' I keep hearing about! Gosh, I never knew! What deadly floral combos did he teach? (joking)

[UltimateFighter]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
lifting weights tightens up muscles. and that is no good for internal martial arts. tense muscles in something like tai chi is like pinching off a hose. It stops the water from coming out.
the reason why lifting weights is bad (from an internal martial arts prospective) is because:
1. your training yourself to resist force, so when met with force, you'll tend to want to use muscle
2. it makes you tense (because it tightens your muscle), and you have to be as relaxed as possible to feel the energy.

Not true at all. Incorrect training reduced flexibility, but proper weight training increase flexibility, lowers tension at the same time as increasing strength.

There is a hige misconception in internal arts that being weak and undeveloped means you are 'relaxed' and high skill. That is nonsense. Being at a physical peak will help in all areas. Just look at Bruce Lee.

[Atleastimnotyou]

Originally posted by UltimateFighter
There is a hige misconception in internal arts that being weak and undeveloped means you are 'relaxed' and high skill. That is nonsense. Being at a physical peak will help in all areas. Just look at Bruce Lee.

Bruce lee wasn't an internal martial artists. He was an athelete that took different things from different martial arts to make a style that fit him.

Master Chen or Fu are small men and they don't have that much muscle. Are they weak? In terms of muscle i suppose they are, but they can hurt an opponent just as easy if not easier than a guy that is ripped.

[Mithrandir]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou


Bruce lee wasn't an internal martial artists. He was an athelete that took different things from different martial arts to make a style that fit him.


I believe Bruce Lee did a little more than just create a style that works for him. Bruce is reputed to have had much skill in helping others find ways of movement that worked for them. While Bruce's Wing Chun training is said to have been incomplete, he did attain a very, very high level of fighting ability. Considering that his WC training was interrupted by a move to a new country...I think he did quite well for himself. While I don't aspire to follow his path, I can respect what he managed to attain through sheer persistance and hard work.

On the Emin bashing, do you think you could defeat him in a one on one situation Alimny? If not, then you might want to zip the lip. Calling people knuckleheads and such when they are not present is very low class indeed and no, I don't study his method of Wing Chun. I'd be willing to bet Emin has been training various martial arts nearly as long as you have been alive (if not longer). Just something to think about.

[Atleastimnotyou]

Bruce Lee got so good because of what you said, "sheer persistance and hard work." He was an average wing chun guy and an extrodinary fighter because of his "sheer persistance and hard work."
As for the Emin thing... give me 2 more years. lol

[anerlich]

2. it makes you tense (because it tightens your muscle), and you have to be as relaxed as possible to feel the energy.

Perhaps in taiji, though actually taiji isn't just soft, it is hard AND soft, like many other things.

Xingyi is defintely not soft. Aspects of it can be harder than say, Kyokushin. Like a fist of diamond.

[AndrewS]

At least-

In two years you'll be able to take sifu Emin? Wow, you must be able to handle any of his students *easily* now! Would you like me to ask around and see if there's anyone willing to arrange a meeting? I'll extend the offer, but odds are I have some mass on you (6'1" 240lbs), and that might be construed as an unfair advantage, I'd not care to take.

AndrewN-

kettlebells ROCK!

I did 11x5 snatches each arm yesterday , 30 second rest intervals, six with the 1 1/2 pood and 5 with the 2 pood. Much fun, and even better when running sprints between sets.

Later,

Andrew

[Grendel]

Regarding External versus Internal, my question is, "who cares? This is definition bound thinking. Are there examples of good older fighters in the external arts, such as karate or you name it---Yes. Are there good ol' masters in the internal arts---Yes. So, does it matter to us whether Wing Chun is internal or external? :D


Originally posted by AndrewS
At least-

In two years you'll be able to take sifu Emin?

C'mon, guys, Atleast was only joking. He has a good attitude Would you recommend he concede that he'll never be as good as "X"? I train to be better than everyone that I can be. It's motivating, and it's thinking positively. If you pin me down, I'll have to answer that there are surely some who I could never beat in a fair fight. Of course, on the street, who plays fair? :D


kettlebells ROCK!

There are a couple of guys in San Jose Wing Chun, Atleast's seniors, who do resistance exercise. I'd tell them their Wing Chun will never be any good, but they'd likely kick my arse if I said so. :) Let's just keep this our little secret, between list buddies. :D

Regards,

[Miles Teg]

[AndrewS At least-

In two years you'll be able to take sifu Emin? Wow, you must be able to handle any of his students *easily* now! Would you like me to ask around and see if there's anyone willing to arrange a meeting? I'll extend the offer, but odds are I have some mass on you (6'1" 240lbs), and that might be construed as an unfair advantage, I'd not care to take. ]


Dude! Wheres your sense of humour?

[AndrewS]

Hey Grendel,

the internal/external thing- at this point, my question is more 'what are my mechanics and how can I do them better.' Internal and external is a fairly artificial distinction. Saying that Tyson, for instance, doesn't hit using the whole body with fluidity and an element of relaxation is, IMHO, silly.

The sifu Emin thing- look I'm not gonna go out in public and claim I could take Ken Chung in a couple of years. First, I'm not delusional, and I put some faith in the opinions I've heard of his skill. Second, it would be rude. Talking trash in public does no one any favors. Either find someone decent and go brawl with someone to break it up, or find someone decent and check out what you each do, become friends, then brawl when you know neither person is going to take advantage of the situation.

Much as I would like to surpass my teachers and various other figures of note, I realize there is little likelihood of that occuring in some cases. Having trained with professional fighters and national and world class athletes, I realize that there are combinations of talent, genetics, timing (i.e. when you start to train and your physical base), and dedication which you need to even enter that level.

Resistance exercise? Amongst your ilk? For Shame! ;-) There was a pretty funny discussion on the WCML a while ago on 'resistance training'. There's a **** near even divide within TWC, YKS, WT, and assorted other lines. Some guys in each line claim that to merely touch iron will debase your lightness, others (hi!) are raving fans of moving some metal. It's all in how you do it.

Later,

Andrew

[yuanfen]

FWIW- some comments without any intended reference to any lineage-on the weights issue....
Reference- the fight last night (154 pound-WBA championship boxing match) between Oscar de la Hoya and Fernado Vargas.
Vargas was slightly ahead at the end of the 4th or 5th round and had de la Hoya covering up on the ropes a couple of times before de la Hoya got away. Fernado definitely was and looked the stronger of the two. Both had trained incredibly hard and boxing requires an incredible base line training regimen with additional differences in details between camps. Around the the 7th round the tide turned and Oscar began to "get off" much earlier than Fernando.... who was still "powerful". In the 10th round Fernando( who I hoped would win) got knocked down. In the 11th- Fernando was knocked out and still groggy after the fight and was taken to a hospital for observation and in depth check up. Most of the media commentators- Larry merchant and Costas(sp?) are(ugh ugh) powder puff rhetoricians. Fortunately the shows do bring on some knowledgeable people. Last might they had again the top level trainer(Emmanuel Seward- who has trained Hearns, Lennox Lewis,Naseem etc etc). During his final commentary- Seward pointed out that some boxers these days
do some weights thinking it will add power- he mentioned Vargas and I think the past prime Tyson). Seward said that often weight training affects getting off as well as endurance in the late rounds. He attributed the increased gap between the skills of Oscar and Fernado in the late rounds in part atleast to the Vargas' weight training factor. I am not particilarly a fan of Seward though I respect him. He is familiar with most training regimens and has visited vargas's training camp. There is some talk of a Lennox Lewis match with the better Klitschko(sp?)(Vladimir?) brother. Again, I am nota Lewis fan though I respect his work.
Kllitschko has an advanced degree in "Exercise Science" and obviously does weights. While predictions in pugilism are a little better than in horse racing- my prediction.. a Lewis win....unless he is asleep at the wheel. Mind you- I am nota fan of Seward or Lewis.Also- in current Ring Magazine- there is a list of the 80 best fighters ever in modern(post John L Sullivan) boxing. From what I know of the training regimen of most- advantage- non weight lifters.
joy

[Mithrandir]

Hi Grendal,

The question was not if people think WC is internal or external. My question is what makes an art (any art) internal. I have yet to see a logical explanation.


That was basically my point. So many people are saying things like...never do such and such if your coming from an internal perspective. I would just for once like to hear some details and not blanket statements.

The farming argument was pointless. Go tell a farmer he doesn't meet resistance offered by the elements. Tell him that the weights he encounters while working don't offer resistance to his body. Then pat him on the shoulder and tell me if you find corded muscle (you will). There have been farmers in my family for over 200 years (I am not one) and they would get quite a chuckle out of such statements.


As far as ATleast goes...it was obvious to me that he was only joking about Emin and the two year thing. It is also obvious that he was serious when he started calling Emin a knucklehead in public. Emin has students on this forum and I doubt they care to hear their teacher disrespected time and time again. I know I wouldn't care to hear someone calling my Sifu a knucklehead in public. That is rude and low-class.


Just some thoughts

[red5angel]

Looks like you stirred up the hornets nest Mithrandir! Good luck finding the answer to your question, I think its as complicated as people amke it and not so complicated as people make it. ;)

RR - Just as a personal experience, weight training can be a detriment to some types of martial training. I think some arts recquire your body be fluid, soft but strong. I think long hours working feilds, or the taichi ball can make you this way, its definitely not the same as weight training per se, as the latter is focused on gaining muscular strength and with this comes muscle mass. I used to be a serious weight lifter and I found that it got in the way of my martial arts at times. UF points out that proper weight training can make you flexible but I think its a trade off, although I was more flexible, larger muscles tend to get in the way of each other. We just recently had a gentleman who was with our class for about 7 months who weightlifted daily. He has been doing it for years, and does it everyday a few hours a day. He isnt gigantic but has some noticeable muscle mass. He finally had to come to the conclusion that it was one or the other, his weight training seemed to be holding him back. I myself have found that since I stopped doing all the weight training my body has become more supple and condusive to martial training.
The opinion that I have been forming for a while is that you can weight train and do martial arts, some arts will go ****her with little or none of it.