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rogue
09-04-2002, 08:30 PM
If anything.

This week I had to explain to my 5 year old what happened as he's suddenly become aware of it.

Serpent
09-04-2002, 08:37 PM
Originally posted by rogue
This week I had to explain to my 5 year old what happened as he's suddenly become aware of it.

That's harsh.

I think that no matter what any of you do, the main thing is to remember.

"It is the doom of men that they forget."
(Excalibur)

Stay safe all.

Xebsball
09-04-2002, 08:44 PM
hmm... class started at 7:30 i think
I woke up around 9 something (yeah i did skip class :D), took a **** and turned on the tv while drinking something (pepsi maybe), while changing channels i saw this building with smoke and thought, heh a bomb must have been. A little later the second tower was hit.

rogue
09-04-2002, 08:53 PM
What was harsh was when my kid got out of bed came downstairs and saw the pictures of the people jumping out of the windows. That was tough to explain.

Serpent
09-04-2002, 08:54 PM
How did you explain it?

rogue
09-04-2002, 09:04 PM
Not very well. I don't think I did. For the rest I kept it simple and just called the terrorists bad guys. He says that his friends and him have talked about it at school so I guess they're all pretty aware of what happened and at an age to ask questions. Nobody said fatherhood would be easy.

Serpent
09-04-2002, 09:10 PM
Definitely a tough call.

A friend of mine has two little kids. A few months ago she heard all this laughter and racket and went upstairs to see what was up. Her kids had made big lego "towers" and were stoving their model aeroplanes into them, smashing lego bricks across the room and wrecking the planes and laughing their arses off.

What are you supposed to do?

:( :confused:

dre
09-04-2002, 09:19 PM
Trying to forget, notice where I live.

rogue
09-04-2002, 09:22 PM
Man that sux Sepent, I'd feel like guano if my kids did that. Did they try to explain 9/11 to the kids after that?

I explained to my oldest what happened last year and he did OK with the information. So far the youngest is doing OK, we went through and looked at the pictures in some magazines I had of what happened. No nightmares or anything, just looked, got serious and a little sad and asked if we got the bad guys.

Speak of the devil, got to put the little fella back in bed. One of the perks of being a dad. :)

Serpent
09-04-2002, 09:42 PM
Yeah, she had a long talk with them and explained that it was bad guys in the planes and that they were hurting innocent people and wrecking lives and happiness and it's not something the kids should be play-acting. It was quite cool actually, cos she then suggested that they play-act being firemen and policemen and pretend to save people from the bad guys and be heroes instead of pretending to be the bad guys.

Now she's crapping herself because her little boy wants to be a fireman now! LOL! He's only 7 (or is it 6? Can't remember) so nothing to worry about yet.

She's a great mum. Shame the ***** that calls himself their dad isn't half the parent she is, but that's another story.

ewallace
09-05-2002, 05:48 AM
Well, this 9/11 I'm going to try to actually celebrate on my birthday. I was just glad to get home last year. I am really not looking forward to my birthday ever again.

Ford Prefect
09-05-2002, 06:34 AM
Nothing wrong with being a fireman. The last 3 generations of my family have been Boston firemen and none of gotten hurt on the job...

Kristoffer
09-05-2002, 08:25 AM
What are you all doing to remember 9/11 1 year later?


Killing some american tourists and a round of mini-golf? Don't worry, only jesting :D nah but I'll probebly just have a regular day, nothing special since it did not affect me or any that I know of. Just glad it didn't happen here. Take care all!

peace

Brad Souders
09-05-2002, 08:47 AM
I was thinking of going to visit the Shanksville PA crash site which is twenty minutes north of my house.

Flattop Monk
09-05-2002, 08:51 AM
I am going to work as usual. I will be wearing a Star of David Pendant- (I am a Kahanist Gentile), and an American Flag Belt Buckle. I will clock the first diaper head that gives me a dirty look.

fa_jing
09-05-2002, 10:00 AM
Hi Flattop! My father used to volunteer security for Kahane.
I won't do anything special because it's just one more day since the attacks/tragedy happened.

tri2bmt
09-05-2002, 08:48 PM
I am going to hand out happy 9/11 greeting cards to all my friends up here in Canada and support my government by joining the army when we decide to destroy America.

Serpent
09-05-2002, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by tri2bmt
I am going to hand out happy 9/11 greeting cards to all my friends up here in Canada and support my government by joining the army when we decide to destroy America.

Outrageously controversial, but I had to laugh. You have to take it in the spirit of comedy. And before any yanks jump on their high horse, think of all the jokes you've told about other nations tragedies first. Comedy is what stops us all going mad. ;)

How long, do you think, till Hallmark tries to institute 9/11 Day?

TaoBoy
09-05-2002, 10:44 PM
I don't know what I'll be doing.

I can remember it like it was yesterday. I'd jsut finished a long training session, got home at around midnight, turned on the TV and there was one of the towers in flames. I immediately thought something was very wrong. Then the next plane hit. I went numb. No kidding. I couldn't believe it.

:(

omegapoint
09-06-2002, 01:38 AM
I'll pray for the world to get its head out of its ass! A poll was done on CNN recently that asked representative populations of folks in Europe if they felt American Foreign Policy contributed to the 9/11 tragedy. I think the majority of people polled in various countries (Britain, Germany, Italy, France, etc.) felt that our "representative" government (what a joke term), was to blame in large part. I tend to agree. From brokering deals with sociopaths like Sadaam and Osama, to relying on dead plants and animals for fuel (possible death cult connection, haha), we were kind of asking for it.

There were signs for years. Americans are uninformed (on purpose) and lack any real power to do anything about anything political. Too bad other criminal types (besides our politicians and big business types) don't feel this way, and innocent people have to suffer for the sake of $$$ and political/business agendas.

So in the immortal words of Laurence Fishburn, star of Spike Lee's "School Daze"------ "WAKE UP!!!!"


Oh and to those that know.... I G O D D A M N told you so!!!

Shadow Dragon
09-06-2002, 01:59 AM
I will spend 9/11 by remembering the victims of ANY conflict wordwide and during History.

And ask from forgiveness for all the innocent that were killed and will be killed in the future in legitimate warfare or not.

If you want the killing to stop than everybody has to make their bit to erase racism, hate, discrimination and so on.
This can be done on a personal level as well a Goverment level by choosing wisely who you vote for.

Peace

fa_jing
09-06-2002, 07:34 AM
Nice post ShadowDragon.

I just saw a special on HBO about the 1972 Munich terrorist murders of the Israeli athletes. I never saw a more bungled operation (by the Germans) in my life. Then the Germans and Palestinians staged a fake hijacking to let the surviving terrorists escape to Libya. So as to avoid retribution and further terrorism within German borders. What Fu(kers. They also released the remains of the dead terrorists to Lebanon where they received a hero's welcome. The strategy of appeasement and negotiation with terrorists is why terrorism works and will continue until people wake up. I was pleased to see that 2 out of 3 of the remaining Munich terrorist were assasinated by secret Israeli operations, as well as 10 people involved in the planning.

I definitely thought that "America" was collectively sleeping leading up to 9/11, and got it's hand slapped for it.

And yes, "we" made Saddam Hussein, and "we" made Osama. And "we" gave 43 million dollars to the Taliban early in 2001.

Want to shoot me? Here, let me buy your bullets.

The Willow Sword
09-06-2002, 07:51 AM
and also hopeing that not another tragedy like that one will repeat itself. Seems like folks are thinking that it is going to happen again aon the same day and that the statue of liberty will be targeted or something of that nature. Of course they said that when new years came and 4th of july and nothing happened.

MRTWS

dnc101
09-06-2002, 10:56 AM
And remember the heros that died in Penn and probably DC.

And honor those who've since woken up to the fact that their safety is their responsibility, and had the courage to act to stop further acts of terrorism.

I'll give respect and honor to those emergency responders and volunteers who risked, and many gave, their lives and health to help others.

I'm going to keep calling 9-11 an atrocity, not a tragedy.

I'm not going to apologise or blame us for the demented acts of these filth- that kind of cowardace encourages these acts.

I'm going to remember that the vast majority of the Muslim world supported and rejoiced in/celebrated over the attack on 9-11, but also that some were genuinely saddened and outraged.

I'm going to ignor the morons who like to make jokes about it and say we deserve what we got, as they only show their own lack of morality, respect, and honor.

But mostly, I'm going to go about business as usual and prove that a few fanatics that don't know how to properly wear a diaper can't bring a free society to it's knees with their envy, hatred, fanaticism, or willingness to die for the promise of a few virgins.

greyseal
09-06-2002, 11:44 AM
I will remember, but I have a request too:
IF any of you decide to buy american flags and put them on your cars(kind of like what happened nearly a year ago) please, PLEASE, PLEASE: WHen the flags get all ratty and shredded, TAKE THE **** THINGS OFF! I hate seeing people who think they are being patriotic(and perhaps they are in their minds)driving around with a flag on their car that just looks like it got trampled on in a palestinian demonstration!
Either take the flag off and get a new one, or take it off and don't get a new one. Either way, it displays a marked ignorance to leave it hanging there.
(takes a deep breath as his frustration leaves his body and takes up residence on the KUNG FU FORUM).
Peace.:)

ewallace
09-06-2002, 11:54 AM
Amen greyseal. That's why I bought a red, white and blue Calvin peeing on bin Laden's name. It's still in remarkable shape despite floods and car washes.

Ryan
09-06-2002, 03:08 PM
First of all, I'm going to punch out anyone who makes any kind of remarks about the "Evil US" or "We deserved it." I'll have Kung Fu that day, and I hope we do a special Bai San or something to honor the victoms. I will stay the heck away from the TV, because I really don't want to see the atrocity again. I will stay away from a message board or chat of any kind, because I will probably take a hammer to the screen if I here some dumbas$ commie slandering America.

September 11th will be known as "Patriot Day" from now on...I just pray to God that my grandkids aren't having picnics on it and thinking of it as just another day off work.

tnwingtsun
09-07-2002, 01:16 AM
It has and always been mankinds nature to wage war,just read
certain posts on this forum,its easy to spot the ones who've
never looked a man or woman in the eye and killed them,cold blooded out right sent them to their maker,maybe revenge,the demons that haunt the ones for years(81 year old Marine I talked to today) will live with the chill till the day they die(indeed a cause of suvival) knowing that theres no way of escaping it.
The ones who rejoice in the bloodshead either side I have no use for,now its a job of survival for our children who three years from now my 14 year old could well end up in the belly of the beast,as
this threat has a strangle hold on ANY freedom loving person on this planet.


"I'm going to ignor the morons who like to make jokes about it and say we deserve what we got, as they only show their own lack of morality, respect, and honor."

May I quote,

"These people have no sense of country.They don't look beyond themselves...We've lost a sense of responsibility,at least on the individual level.We have too many people who believe that the goverment owes them total,undisciplined freedom.If everyone thought that way,there would be no society.We're so big,so strong now,that people have seem to have forgotten that a part of our strength comes from each person surrendering a portion of his individual urges to the common good"

As for me,not a day goes by that I forget those that surrendered
a portion of his or her's individual urges to the common good,not just the "911" atrocity,but that 81 year warrior that I locked eyes with today and listened......And learned,so many before him,so many after him and so many more to come.

The lack of response on this thread bothers me,its as if Sept.11th 2001 was a wake up call for those with their heads straight up their arses,and some if not alot still have their heads up their arses.

dezhen2001
09-07-2002, 01:31 AM
good post tnwingtsun!

I have never faced the horrors of war, but even just thinking about it frightens me... all the people who laid down their lives to protect and fight for what they believe in (all sides of EVERY conflict), as well as innocents deserve our respect and rememberance, not just 9/11.

The story about the veteran is particularly potent: even thinking about doing something like that frightens me, but to live through a conflict, with so many horrors to come to terms with, is truly a brave thing... It seems some of those people are often forgotten about...

So for me 9/11 i will remember what happened, reflect on all the bad things that have and are happening, and those who have gone before us. Mainly i will hope for the future to see people working together to ensure this doesn't happen again, from all sides... :)

david

Shadow Dragon
09-07-2002, 03:39 AM
Like dezhen2001 I have never faced war myself.

But I have met many people that been in different wars from my own grandparents to friends and my Wifes Family..
And many people that lived and suffered through occupation times.
Both allied and non-allied.

To friends that served for 1 1/2 years in a war-zone and those that were stationed in trouble areas like Beirut and South African Townships.

The funny thing is NONE of them advocate war, it is normally people that have NEVER seen/experienced war that advocate it.

Also a lot of the People that advocate war have never seen the effects on their own home-ground like the USA.

So for all the war-mongers out there I suggest to visit a Library and see what War and Military actions have done to countries and People BOTH friendly and Enemy.

Than come back and repeat their tough racist and hatred attitude.

To find out about war don't read a History book or watch a Documentary, but ask People that been there and lived trhough it to give you first-hand accounts not tainted by glorification of people that won a war/conflict.
Cheers

African Tiger
09-07-2002, 07:26 PM
Well unlike Denzen and Shadow Dragon, I HAVE seen the horror of war, and we may be facing the same Arabs with whom I worked and fought 12 years ago - can I possibly tell you how much that p isses me off?

What am I doing? Certainly not celebrating, or honoring the heroes. Truthfully I'm ashamed that the most powerful nation in the world got its "cherry popped" in such a manner, and I certainly do NOT want to remember or mourn.

I for one will be vigilant as hell, and secretly wishing some "martyr for Allah" was sitting next to me on my next airplane flight...I'll help him/her/them on their journey :mad:

Semper Fi, go shoot that guy

guohuen
09-08-2002, 10:03 AM
Sucks, don't it?

I'll probably do the same thing I do every day. Pray, meditate, train and stay vigilant.

NorthernMantis
09-08-2002, 10:46 AM
Most people seem to forget that many people of different nations died that day. It wasn't an atack on US in general, it was an attack on humanity. Bin Laden is friggin hypocryte and coward. He doesn't even follow his own religion corectly. I say he's in it for something else.

rogue
09-08-2002, 12:27 PM
Now this guy is has the right idea! (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/09/08/nextre08.xml&sSheet=/portal/2002/09/08/ixport.html&secureRefresh=true&_requestid=238348) Goodtime, goodtimes.

Stacey
09-08-2002, 01:14 PM
I will commmemorate the attacks by filling a fleet of remote controled airplanes with m-80's and flying them into skyscrapers.

Of course if I really wanted to do something dangerous I could vote for Bush in the upcoming election.

I can't wait to see who wins the war on terror. I wonder if its gonna be like the war on drugs. Remember that? Notice how its hard to find drugs these days:p The war on terror will be like that.


seriously, I will commemorate it by buying a plane ticket to Mazatlan. The fear will come again and people won't want to fly. Well if the terrorists are gonna make waves, I might as well ride them into priceline.com

M.C. Busman
09-08-2002, 01:26 PM
NorthernMantis wrote: <i>"Most people seem to forget that many people of different nations died that day. It wasn't an atack on US in general, it was an attack on humanity. Bin Laden is friggin hypocryte and coward. He doesn't even follow his own religion corectly. I say he's in it for something else.</i>

Hello All,

I've looked at 9-11 as a tragedy for the world as well, not something confined to the USA. Any event where this many folk die (regardless of cause) is a global happening, not something confined to a locality. I felt the same about Bhopal, Chernobyl, Rwanda, etc. In addition to the diversity of the victims, like it or not, much of the worlds economy is tied to happenings in the U.S.A. This is one of the reasons Bin Laden's Al Quaida (and other terrorist groups) would love to smash the U.S. economy--hence the original WTC bombing a few years back (which at the time took out something like 5 basement floors). Envy, jealousy is a biiig part of this hatred for the U.S.

The self-proclaimed "Righteous of Allah" simply cannot come to grips with the fact that for all their ranting and claims that they speak and act for god, they are still living in hovels and having to force people to observe outdated tribal and religious customs (otherwise they would wage an ideological war, not one directed at economic targets). The thinking runs along the lines of "those immoral heathenistic, Americans (or insert your country/culture) are living successfully, reaping rewards WE DESERVE! We had better fix this before people start asking why they're successful and we're not..." In their eyes, it is the rest of the world that is misguided. Like homegrown fanatics here in the US of A, they realize that their position is not based upon reason, and know that the only way they will convince themselves and their followers that there may be some truth to their claims of divine sponsorship is to destroy something magnificent and beautiful. The freedom of their own people. Or about 3,000 unarmed other people and lots o' jet fuel, steel and concrete oughta do the trick!

All hail God, who has delivered a miracle! Ah, God. Sponsor of Al Quaida, John Walker Lindh, Aryan Nations, Branch Davidians everywhere, women's clinic bombers, terrorist shieks, and those loving televangelists who beg for "love offerings" from their multi-million dollar pulpits. Sigh. Fills my heart with goodness to know that yes, <b>prayer really does work.</b> Riiight? After all, if God answered a prayer as big as Al Quaida's....

Blaming the USA and striking at civillians going about their day-to-day business is easier for them than correcting the vast problems with the Saudi political/religious regime. But if 9-11-01 shows they were right because they succeeded...what does the fact that the Taliban were (mostly) wiped out mean?

This is a good time for the world to remember. NOTHING is truly safe. A jet could take out the Eiffel Tower today. Or vaporize the Kabbah at Mecca. Or maybe another big, stone Buddah. A bullet can rip through a soldier, or a smiling toddler indifferently. It doesn't know the difference. But people do--we have the capability of the vilest meanness and also they bravest kindness. And it is people we must watch. Vigilence is the price of Safety. If 9-11-01 has done nothing else, it has reminded us that everyone has an Achilles Heel. No-one is immortal, and nothing stands forever. Whether our monuments fall under the weight of time, or the weight of cruelty (our own or our neighbor's) is simply a matter of circumstance and preparedness.

Last but not least, "Blaming the Victim" in this case rings hollow--folks trying to rationalize this insanity really do look like a bunch of nutters. It's the USA's fault? Which US folks? The kids on the playground? The businessman trying to make a buck? Organized labor? Housewives? Atheists? Receptionists? The guys who signed the Bill of Rights, and the countless generations of men and women who improved upon the dreams eminating from it? C'mon. Listen to these blame mongers. They are either U.S. citizens laden with guilt over their own personal selfish actions, or whiney Frenchmen who never got over the fact that the U.S.A. saved their smelly posteriors from Adolf (since we're on a first-name basis with Osama, Saddam, etc...). Silliness--they can't be taken seriously. Not seriously enough to upset me, at any rate.

I will do what I did last year, run at 8:15/m pace until my legs give out, and then crawl to a friendly telephone & collect call a ride. Then I will BBQ a steak (need protein after the run), and while eating it, hope that ignorant fundamentalists everywhere will bring about their own demise--whether the remnents of the taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan, or our homegrown fanatical christians in the US of A. No candles, no flowers, nothing special, really. I celebrate the good, the innocent, the sincere every day. Always have.

As for turning the other cheek, taking the blame, swallowing the world's innocent, and jest fergettin' abouddit, as some suggest--sometimes we have to make war to have peace. I just hope we finish what we start before we stretch ourselves too thin. Or commit to WWIII. What frightening thoughts.

Happy Trailways to You,

M.C. Busman
mc_busman@Bigmailbox.net

Martial Joe
09-08-2002, 01:27 PM
People shouldnt be afraid.

There is more protection now then ever.

rogue
09-08-2002, 01:42 PM
Of course if I really wanted to do something dangerous I could vote for Bush in the upcoming election. Umm Stacey? It's an off year election, Bush isn't on the ballot this time.

M.C. Busman, dittos.

Xebsball
09-08-2002, 01:43 PM
I dont think it was an attack to humanity or the western world or something, it was just USA.
Nobody here felt afraid like ooooh that could happen to us. The attack is for USA, not for us.
Posibly becouse we didnt **** other countries in the ass without asking, so we are always at low risk.

ewallace
09-08-2002, 02:46 PM
Go **** yourself Stacey. Wait you probably just got done. Your comment about remote controlled planes filled with m-80's even in humor is a blatent disrepect to everyone who lost their lives that day. It's a shame that people who actually had something of value to contribute to this world lost their lives and whiney little pussies like you get to contiue their pointless little lives.

Stacey
09-08-2002, 04:10 PM
so they are better because they died?

Ok Ewallace, go appreaciate.


why do you care anyways? I didn't see you crying when 1/3 or bolivia's native population a number far in excess of the bombings was wiped out in an earthquake.

In case you havent watched the news for the last 20 years, people always die. What do you expect? Did you think this wouldn't happen? Do you think your life will be free from suffering? Yeah it was a joke, better a joke than to life in fear, life goes on.

ewallace
09-08-2002, 04:21 PM
You don't see me making fun of the Bolivans that died either. The point was that your post was nowhere near funny. And that was a natural disaster genious. That was absolutely in the most horrible taste considering the events that happened. It's obvious from your posts you don't know anything about anything. Your rationale sucks, and your humor is non-existant. Let alone you can't decide what gender you are or what style you practice.

I don't live in fear. I just got off a ****ing airplane 5 days ago. Tell me, besides sitting on your ass in front of a computer whining about how bad your government is, what the hell do you do to make your life or for that matter anyone around you's lives any better, or change the things that you don't like?

joedoe
09-08-2002, 04:37 PM
I will say a prayer for those that died, and avoid all TV specials like the plague. I think the TV stations are just cashing in on a tragedy, and it really annoys me.

Shadow Dragon
09-08-2002, 04:42 PM
Agree with Joedoe.

From now on it will be more about the almighty Dollar.

Look out for the Vendors homing in on Ground zero and similar to skim the extra buck on food, flags, flowers, memorial goods, etc.

Every year worldwide the skeletons are pulled out of the closet dusted of and paraded in front of everybody to sell something.

Sad but true.

wushu chik
09-08-2002, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by Martial Joe
People shouldnt be afraid.

There is more protection now then ever.

Um, howdoya figure???

Shadow Dragon
09-08-2002, 05:03 PM
Wushu Chick.

The average human today lives in a much safer environment than their ancestors.

Murder has dropped over the centuries.
Violent crime has dropped over the centuries.
Death due to sickness has dropped over the Centuries.

Just to name a few. Modern day man has a life of safety and health not found anywhere in our History.
Look at murder while today we have mabye 13 out of 1000, it used to be as high as 300 out of 1000 not too long ago.

Violence and war is one of natures way of population control and solving over-population.

And the biggest one will always be taken down by the smaller ones teaming up to take him.

Cheers.

wushu chik
09-08-2002, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by Shadow Dragon
Wushu Chick.

The average human today lives in a much safer environment than their ancestors.

Murder has dropped over the centuries.
Violent crime has dropped over the centuries.
Death due to sickness has dropped over the Centuries.

Just to name a few. Modern day man has a life of safety and health not found anywhere in our History.
Look at murder while today we have mabye 13 out of 1000, it used to be as high as 300 out of 1000 not too long ago.

Violence and war is one of natures way of population control and solving over-population.

And the biggest one will always be taken down by the smaller ones teaming up to take him.

Cheers.

WOW..you sure do know how to make a person feel good!! :rolleyes: So, basically what you're saying, in all your apparent wisdom is this: murder is down & we have more safety (which is a bunch of pathetic bullsh!t in my opinion) and because of "population control"....my children, as well as many others is totally expendable?? Correct me if I am wrong here. What you said makes you sound like a complete ass! I don't know where the hell you get your statistics from, but I think you're reading a fairytale!

Shadow Dragon
09-08-2002, 05:34 PM
WC.

Just because you don't like the TRUTH and FACTS don't make me an ass.
Those facts can be found in any History book or study about living conditions through the ages.

Ever wondered why densely populated areas got many violent conflicts, high crime rates and even civil wars?

And yes, you me and many others are 100% dispensible in the big scheme.

Do you think that Bush or any other leader declaring war gives a rats ass about how many US or Iraqi mothers will loose their sons, daughters and husbands.

Or how much it will cost in Tax-money, suffering, effort.
In case you hadn't realised it the Bill for the War on Terror, Homeland security etc is still going to hit the Tax-payers.
As well as many other unpleasant things like less privacy and so on.

We are all Collateral damage to them(enemy and foe alike), just a number on the statistic that shows who won the war.

Open your eyes and see beyond your little horizon and you will see what I and many others are talking about.

In the end it is always the small guy that suffers.

Cheers.

Shadow Dragon
09-08-2002, 05:43 PM
Wushu-Chick and others.

Explain to me the following:

Why does the USA have to declare WAR on a whole Country to get rid of 1 Person??

Why do thousands have to be killed in order to get rid of 1 person??

The US could send in either:
1.) A special Force team to assasinate that person.
2.) Place a cruise missile right on top of him.
And why couldn't they do it 14 years ago?? Because they didn't want to is the correct answer.
Iraqi/Afghan/Russina/etc soldiers are just like US Soldiers, persons ordered to fight whoever their leaders declare as the enemy.
It is all about power and getting the biggest share of money/economic pie.
So that the rich can get richer.

Cheers.
P.S.: Since you are not up on current events. Russia is currently the BIGGEST oil-producing nation in the world..

wushu chik
09-08-2002, 05:44 PM
Nah, i have no problem with truth and facts...I also can see WAY over my little horizon. Unfortunately for me though, I am not just thinking of my ass...unlike you. I am thinking of my children, along with the rest of the world. You have NO IDEA what it's like, I am sure. If you do, then you'd be a little worried yourself.

In the "big scheme" of things...nobody is expendable. Maybe you haven't figured that out yet, but honestly, life's not about "lets see how many of THEM we can kill today", it's about living for yourself and your loved ones and trying to make the world A BETTER FU(KING PLACE FOR OUR KIDS. Or, maybe mom and dad didn't teach you that!

I am really sorry those people lost their lives. And, I am really sorry that the Muslims that are doing this are taking the Koran to a total extreme, stepping out of the boundaries that have been "set" for them in their book. This is NOT what life is about people...wake up!

Shadow Dragon
09-08-2002, 05:57 PM
WC.

If you think that way.

Why didn't YOU stop the war on AFGHANISTAN or try stopping the war in IRAQ or change the US-Goverments stance on the middel east conflict.

It is easy to sit on your butt and say I am creating a better future for my children on the sufferings on others.

Stop the madman in the White House, because HE is taking the USA, Middle East and many other places down a 1-way road into violence, continued terror attacks and more suffering.

Ever wondered why most nations in the world oppose the Iraq War, not because we are bunch of wussies that.

BUT because we want a better future for our Kids, I want my son to go to a Kibbuz the same way I went. But guess it ain't happening till there is peace in that region.

Use 9/11 to say "Stop the Violence, we had enough", don't promote hate and more fighting.

Cheers.

rogue
09-08-2002, 05:58 PM
Shadow Dragon,

"The US could send in either:
1.) A special Force team to assasinate that person."
Since you have insight into this layout the plan for this please.

2.) Place a cruise missile right on top of him.
Please give us his exact location when we're ready to launch.

And why couldn't they do it 14 years ago?? Because they didn't want to is the correct answer. Sort of true.

"Iraqi/Afghan/Russina/etc soldiers are just like US Soldiers, persons ordered to fight whoever their leaders declare as the enemy."

Many Iraqi soldiers were dragooned but the Republican Guard are not, I believe Russia has mandatory service and Afghan didn't have an army to speak of. Those Taliban soldiers seemed happy enough not to fight against their tyranical gov't.


"It is all about power and getting the biggest share of money/economic pie.
So that the rich can get richer." :rolleyes:

wushu chik
09-08-2002, 06:03 PM
Who said I am promoting hate and more violence? You have to be an idiot to think that. I am not creating a better life for my children on the sufferings of others. You apparently have NO IDEA what I was saying. Oh well, you sounds like one of the totally typical narrowminded morons I was referring to.

~Wen~

Shadow Dragon
09-08-2002, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by rogue
Shadow Dragon,

"The US could send in either:
1.) A special Force team to assasinate that person."
Since you have insight into this layout the plan for this please.


Ask your CIA and military forces, they got it all planned and even admitted that they are ready to do so.



2.) Place a cruise missile right on top of him.
Please give us his exact location when we're ready to launch.


Hmm, lets see arial satelite photo and the info that the US Secret service has about his way of life, daily routines should do.

I think that your Goverment has all the above info ready and equipment in place already
[/B][/QUOTE]

PLCrane
09-08-2002, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by Ryan
September 11th will be known as "Patriot Day" from now on...I just pray to God that my grandkids aren't having picnics on it and thinking of it as just another day off work.

Sorry, but that name is already taken. Patriots' Day is April 17 and commemorates American Partiots who gave their lives against tyranny for our freedoms.

respectmankind
09-08-2002, 06:48 PM
absolutely nothing. perhapes remembering the tragedy, but as far as any act or verbal expression. if anything i will end up getting in a fight with stupid racist people.

Mr Punch
09-08-2002, 08:51 PM
I'm gonna drink and score myself a woman.

LEGEND
09-08-2002, 08:51 PM
Shadow Dragon...please Knock It Off regarding your insight to regarding sending CIA assasination squads etc...just cause u read history or how the cia work book does not qualify u to make statments about our military. Hell I live in DC and I'm not going to say much about my career right now but u make it sound like it's easier said than done for sure.

Now on to the war with IRAQ. To get rid of one man??? Or an entire REGIME??? After the annilation of the TALIBAN in Afghanistan...weigh the cost benefits of a war with IRAQ. What do have to gain...
Let's see...
Taking out Saddam would **** off terrorist orgs. But oh well...they've been already ****ed off. What about other MIDDLE EAST countries??? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm...do u really think they'll go to war against us??? What about a friendly reigme in IRAQ??? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...that mean we have yet another foothold in the MIDDLE EAST...ISRAEL...TURKEY...AFGHANISTAN and soon to be IRAQ. Resources??? OIL. These are realistic answers not based on any other SHIET. It is unfortunate but as SHADOW DRAGON is correct...war is a thing of nature...it happena ALL THE TIME. This is no different. To say it's not is BullShiet.

Shadow Dragon
09-08-2002, 09:06 PM
Legend.

Maybe your sources differ from mine.
From what I know the plans for offing Saddam and nearly any other world-leader have been worked out to the finest details.

This is part of what Goverments & Secret Services do, ALL of them.
And if they wanted to do it, than I am pretty sure that they could and would do it.

But I guess it would amount to political suicide in the eyes of the rest of the world.

That is all that I am saying.

Cheers:

P.S.: I am also pretty sure that the Secret Service also has a plan for troublesome US Presidents.

Mr Punch
09-08-2002, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by LEGEND
Now on to the war with IRAQ. To get rid of one man??? Or an entire REGIME??? After the annilation of the TALIBAN in Afghanistan...weigh the cost benefits of a war with IRAQ.

REGIME? I don't think half a dozen yes-men, a few more dozen 'men' ****ting themselves into saying yes, and a 'Republican' Guard most of whom also want out, constitute a REGIME. Kill Saddam and a dozen Saddams will pop up in his place. But they won't be as strong, and will have to institute some kind of politics to avoid all-out civil war and escalation of destabilisation in the faces of their neighbours.

If you're talking about the 'Islamic Regime' that retard Flattop Monk was talking about earlier, you're blowing it out your ass. The Moslem world is a bunch of very disparate groups: if the US wants to further strengthen them by making their sense of a common enemy even stronger, you should carry on supporting Bush and the war.

If the American military had stuck to their promises to help the Iraqi civilians and Iraqi and Kurdish freedom fighters oust Saddam, back in the Gulf War, and followed it up with aid, instead of sanctions and leaving those same freedom fighters to get mopped up by Saddam's guard, they could have had a country pack full of allies.

If pigs flew... I'm back off this BS thread, I've already said what I'm gonna do!

dezhen2001
09-08-2002, 11:33 PM
nothng to say except good post mat :) i'm staying out of this one! :D

david

rogue
09-09-2002, 07:58 AM
Shadow Dragon, what are your sources?

fa_jing
09-09-2002, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by Xebsball
I dont think it was an attack to humanity or the western world or something, it was just USA.
Nobody here felt afraid like ooooh that could happen to us. The attack is for USA, not for us.
Posibly becouse we didnt **** other countries in the ass without asking, so we are always at low risk.

Let's see, you come from a country where death squads "humanely" kill thousands of street children. Where income disparities are as bad as in the US, but the overall scale is lower so you have people starving and malnourished not far from where the rich frolic - where corruption is rampant, life is cheap and your racial and economic caste system rivals that of any other country. I think one of your own oppressed citizens would sooner be the source of fear and danger for you. Low risk? You call favelas low risk?

Not addressing your point about the US, which has involved itself in many sticky moral situations abroad. Rather pointing out the sticky moral situations that your own government has involved itself in domestically. Get off your high horse.

Xebsball
09-09-2002, 01:45 PM
fa_jing, you misunderstood what i said, i was talking about external attacks. We are low risk to attacks from other countries, get it now? Since we were talking about external policies, international war and such it seems to me that you bringing up internal issues of my country is just a simple and inefective way of trying to somehow angry or confuse me.

:p

btw... where are you getting your info... thousands of children being shot is far from reality.
You have kids shooting at schools where you live, were thousands of children killed in those?

ewallace
09-09-2002, 02:00 PM
Yeah really. If you wanted to confuse or anger Xebs, just mention to him that he hasn't gotten any for a while, and that shouldn't be happening considering he lives in Brazil.

fa_jing
09-09-2002, 02:15 PM
The death squads thing was something that I was reading about in 1996, don't have any references. But here's something for you:

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20020909_1247.html

quote: "Between 1978-2000, 49,913 people died from small-arms fire in Rio de Janeiro, the vast majority between the ages of 15 and 24, Dowdney said"

I'm just trying to point out that the evils that humans commit are not all confined to the Northern Hemisphere.

Your country is not heavily involved in international politics, with neither its risks nor its rewards, that works for you, fine. Hey I hate imperialism too. But I also hate the anti-US sentiment that exists in countries where the real culprits are their own leaders who sell their people out to you guessed it, the US and other foreign interests. But the deals weren't designed to work that way - they were to bring benefit to the country, it is your corrupt leaders (mostly in the past) that have squandered the opportunities and failed to share the wealth gained from such deals.

rubthebuddha
09-09-2002, 02:18 PM
hey xebby, i think you have something sticking out of your back.

Xebsball
09-09-2002, 02:31 PM
fa_jing,

I thought you were talking about normal street kids being shot at random.
If you refer to kids or teenagers that work for drug dealers, i feel sorry for them... but they carry guns, sell drugs and shot at the police just like any other criminal, their future is quite obviously at most times, death by firearms - be it the polices guns or of some rival gang.

I never claimed the northern hemisphere to be the root of evil or anything like that, my statement only showed the truth of the law of karma, action and reaction.

ewallace and rub,

you *******s! :D

TenTigers
09-09-2002, 02:47 PM
Hi. I came in late (but I have a note) so I am just simply going to answer the original topic. What am I going to do? Stockpile ammo, and HASMAT suits. Not really a problem, due to the fact that I have plenty left over from Y2k ;-)

ewallace
09-09-2002, 02:50 PM
You sound exactly like a buddy of mine that sat on his roof on Y2K with a fully loaded SKS assault rifle and enough extra rounds to take out a large trailor park community.

:)

fa_jing
09-09-2002, 03:14 PM
Xebs - Those people are driven to crime by their socio-economic status and the fact that drugs are illegal...same as here. They are not responsible for the conditions in which they live, still, they do bear responsibility for their actions as you said.

The death squads goes back to an article I was reading in 1996, in a Spanish newspaper--apparently groups of armed men were killing street children (gamines) as "mercy" killings by the dozens at a time- and the locals and the police had ambiguous feelings about it--many supported these actions. I think it was mostly in the Sao Paulo area. I mentioned something to a Scottish guy about it, he gave me a remark like "well, they're not much more than bags of bones anyway" It is terrible that human life is dis-regarded in such a manner, not enough people think to try to help these kids. Anyway your country is internationally reknowned for it's poor human rights record, so like I said "get off your high horse" - means don't talk down to us like your refuse doesn't stink.

Now, go find a girl and be happy!!! There's someone out there for ya, don't sweat it Karma will eventually send someone your way
peace

Xebsball
09-09-2002, 03:36 PM
High horse or not, i criticize all countries when they deserve, mine included, but this thread aint about Brazil ;)

Yeah i remember the death squads thing, actually some of the killers were cops btw. I havent heard on the news that happening since a long time.

Be happy you too :D

Budokan
09-09-2002, 08:36 PM
I'm going to pi$$ on the Koran.

Shadow Dragon
09-09-2002, 09:00 PM
Hi All.

I hope that after 9/11 the REAL war against Terrorism will start.

And I mean ALL form of Terrorism, personally, I don't see ol' Bushy squirrel doing anything against ETA, Tamil Tiger or any other known Terrorist group in the World.

Sorry, forgot he used the excuse to strenghten some bases/ties in the Phillipines and get some laws changed to allow him to stay there easier.

Maybe it should be renamed to:
"War against the perceived enemies of the USA and other undesirable elements".
rather than the above misleading Name.

Whoever belives that the USA is engaged in a war to wipe out Terrorism needs to rethink a bit.

War and it's associated suffering/hate/killings creates Terrorists.

Something to ponder on how Bushy squirrel tries to fool the world, but not many are fooled.

Cheers.

Serpent
09-09-2002, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by Budokan
I'm going to pi$$ on the Koran.

Just goes to show what a grown up you are then, doesn't it. You realise that this comment proves you to be just the same type of fundamentalist, misinformed, blinkered, bigotted twat that you claim to rail against, don't you?

I can't believe this level of ignorance and plain ****ing idiocy still exists.

It's people like you, Budokan, that reinforce the rest of the world's opinion of your country and it's population.

rogue
09-10-2002, 06:55 AM
"War and it's associated suffering/hate/killings creates Terrorists."

Explain Tim McVey, the Unibomber, the Black Panthers, The ELF, The Luddites, The Weather Underground, Aum Shinrikyo, The Ku Klux Klan, The Crips and the Bloods.
Use your superior sources to get the run down on why the list above resorted to terroism in a non-war setting. The war in Afghanistan didn't create al Queda, it just helped train their members. bin Ladens group has a vision of Islam that they want to see come true and set up the kalifate again. After their goal of
of getting the US out of Saudi Arabia(which I can understand) they will then set out to bring their version of Islam to the rest of the middle east starting with Saudi Arabia. They've tried several times to assasinate Egypts president and I believe Jordans King too. So after the infidels are taken care of they will go after all Muslims that they think are apostate, meaning every Muslim not like them. That means after they get Rogue they'll go after Tai Li.

Terrorism is no longer a by product of the down trodden but a way to wage war in and of itself. I think we can give the IRA credit for coming up with that little idea. If the IRA or al Queda could field an army and project power like the US or UK they all would.

Budokan, even I think your remark was over the top.

ewallace
09-10-2002, 06:59 AM
I agree Rogue. Budo if you are going to pee on a book it should be one of those "20 Ways to please your man" books that is written by a woman.

STUDD WILSON
09-10-2002, 08:14 AM
"I agree Rogue. Budo if you are going to pee on a book it should be one of those "20 Ways to please your man" books that is written by a woman."

How about Ashida Kim's ninja lovemaking book?

The Willow Sword
09-10-2002, 08:32 AM
or maybe tomorrow never comes,,,,is it all the same Fukin day?

whew anyway.

Our company will be observing a moment of silence in the morning.

i will share my prayer on 9-11 with all of you.

" great mystery we thank you for the blessing of our lives,,,we thank you for the food on our table,,the clothes on our back,,the water we drink,,the transportation we utilize and all that is provided to us,,,we know that all of these things are from you.
For the lives lost in tragedy we send prayers of peace and light so that they may find their way out of the darkness,,and into beauty. for the ones whose beloved were lost we send prayers of love,compassion and understanding,,so that in times of rememberance and mourning,,you all will know that you are not alone, your pain is our pain.
to the lives responsable for these tragedys,,we send prayers of
illumination and enlightenment, for you walk a dark path and need help out of that darkness,,realize your mistakes and your violent acts and begin to walk a path of beauty and peace.
oh tunkasila wakantanka ,,cetan ska miye yelo, pila maya piyelo , wani wa ye mitakouye oyasin,
hetch eto.

Many Respects and peace to you all,,,Jason bratcher(the willow sword)

Budokan
09-10-2002, 09:50 AM
I decided to videotape a week's worth of "The View" and pi$$ on that instead. Is that okay with you guys?:D

Shadow Dragon
09-10-2002, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by rogue
Explain Tim McVey, the Unibomber, the Black Panthers, The ELF, The Luddites, The Weather Underground, Aum Shinrikyo, The Ku Klux Klan, The Crips and the Bloods.

Wow, some of those existed BEFORE the term of Terrorist was coined.

Yes, they are Terrorists, have YOU looked into their backgrounds and found out WHY they became Terrorists?

Plus, I don't think that the KKK qualifies as Terrorists.

In the last year the term has become a catchall phrase for all undesirable social elements.

Since I lived BEFORE 9/11 I stick with the OLD definition.
Seeya.

ewallace
09-10-2002, 02:25 PM
Regardless of your political views about 9/11, all of you should take note that when SHTF, the internet was bogged down. This slows down the flow of the forum, and has a devastating effect on us all. That in itself should be reason enough to stay vigilante tomorrow.

And I do accept warm beer shipped from oversees as birthday gifts.

Shadow Dragon
09-10-2002, 04:07 PM
One year later

Each generation has a defining moment, one that prompts individuals to ask, "Where were you when . . .?" Usually such moments are national; rarely does a single event touch lives across the world. Sept. 11 was one of those international tragedies. A year ago today, the world watched transfixed as hijacked airliners crashed into targets in the United States (one, thanks to the heroism of its crew and passengers who overcame the terrorists, plunged to earth in a Pennsylvania field). The crashes killed more than 3,000 people, heralding the arrival of a grim, new era. The events of Sept. 11 have had a profound effect on governments and individuals worldwide. Yet it is unclear whether we have truly absorbed the lessons of that day.

The Sept. 11 terrorist attacks ushered in a new era of insecurity in the U.S. As only the third foreign attack on U.S. soil during the country's history, they shattered the myth of American invulnerability. For two centuries, the U.S. had been confident that two oceans insulated it from the turmoil and tumult of other parts of the world. Sept. 11 ended that false sense of security.

In response, the U.S. took military action against the government in Afghanistan, a country that most Americans could not find on a map and whose grievances they could not understand. President George W. Bush spoke openly of the presence of evil in the world and of his country's mission to terminate the threat posed to peace and security. For him, the choice was simple: Nations are either "with us or against us." After defeating the Taliban and taking on "the second front" in Southeast Asia, the war drums are beating louder as the U.S. administration lays the groundwork for an assault on Iraq, another regime that speaks the language of the Sept. 11 terrorists.

The economic effects of Sept. 11 are still rippling through the global economy. It is estimated that the damage to New York City alone will total $40 billion. The military campaign in Afghanistan adds $80 billion to the bill. Additional indirect costs, such as the insurance premiums businesses must now pay and the security measures, add billions more to the tally.

The economic impact is being felt worldwide. Every nation has been affected by the rising price of oil, while stock markets around the world have shed trillions of dollars in value in the last year. There are many reasons for those losses that have nothing to do with Sept. 11. -- accounting scandals and the recognition that there was a "bubble" in the U.S. stock market. Still, the lingering fear in the aftermath of the attacks that there will be more is an important contributing factor.

The greatest effect is psychological. Americans now feel vulnerable. Incredibly, no nation or hostile government did this. Rather, 19 men, armed with box cutters, have changed irrevocably the way Americans view the world. The investigation into the attacks has revealed the shifting balance of power between governments and individuals as well as the new dangers that have been created by globalization.

Thinking about national security will never be the same. Terrorists have long been a concern, but they have assumed greater significance in the last year. Despite Mr. Bush's "black and white" formulation, it has become clear that threats emerge from unexpected places -- who would have thought that a ragtag bunch living in the caves of a Third World country could destroy two international landmarks half a world away? -- and that cause and effect have long and twisted linkages. There are no simple solutions to the most important questions.

Sept. 11 has also forced Americans to face the gap between their image of themselves and the way they are viewed internationally. On Sept. 12, newspapers around the world could proclaim that "we are all Americans," but soon thereafter the anger and rage that animates many became evident. Americans have a deeply felt belief in their own good intentions and the righteousness of their cause. And yet, over the past year, there has been a growing recognition of the incompatibility of U.S. objectives and interests with those of other nations, triggering talk of a "clash of civilizations." The U.S. has come face to face with the deeply seated distrust -- and yes, even hatred -- created by its policies and its success. The U.S. people and their government must not shy away from an understanding of that unpleasant reality and work to change it.

At the same time, for all the changes created by Sept. 11, there are many continuities. The world on Sept. 12 looked a lot like it did on Sept. 10. There may be "new security threats," but old ones remain. There is the ever-present danger of a conflict on the Korean Peninsula, in the Taiwan Strait or in Kashmir. One-third of the world's population lives on less than $2 a day and hunger is more widespread than anger. Sept. 11 should have taught us that we ignore those continuities at our peril.

The Japan Times: Sept. 11, 2002
(C) All rights reserved

TaoBoy
09-10-2002, 04:10 PM
The world will never be the same again. :(

rogue
09-10-2002, 07:35 PM
The world will never be the same again. The world had changed long before that, most just didn't know it.

The writer from the Japam Times has bought into some silly 9/11 mythology.


Thinking about national security will never be the same. Terrorists have long been a concern, but they have assumed greater significance in the last year. Sorry to say they weren't. The FBI ranked terrorism #13th on it's things to do list. Interstate auto theft was a bigger concern. Bill Clinton did nothing, correction he cut the budgets of the spec ops guys who used to hunt them down.


The greatest effect is psychological. Americans now feel vulnerable. Incredibly, no nation or hostile government did this. Rather, 19 men, armed with box cutters, have changed irrevocably the way Americans view the world. Actually it wasn't the boxcutters that did it, but several aircraft loaded with jet fuel. We always were vulnerable, some of us knew, most just ignored it.


who would have thought that a ragtag bunch living in the caves of a Third World country could destroy two international landmarks half a world away? Ragtag? Hardly. al Queda are well trained, motivated and well equiped with technology (produced by the infidels in the west) that enables them to carry out well planned and well executed operations.


One-third of the world's population lives on less than $2 a day and hunger is more widespread than anger. Sept. 11 should have taught us that we ignore those continuities at our peril. 9/11 had nothing to do with hunger, it had a lot to do with a twisted idealogy.

Shadow Dragon
09-10-2002, 07:41 PM
rogue.

You are unqiue.

So far everbody else that read that report on multiple Boards agreed with it and thought it was an excellent article.

That includes US and non-US Citizens.

Or are you just trying to poke holes into it you because you disagree with some of my previous Posts??
If so, than grow up and get a life.

BTW, I don't know who the writer was, but from reading the artilce I think he is American.
Japan Times publishes many articles from overseas Newspapers too.
They haven't claimed it as one of theirs.

Cheers.

rogue
09-10-2002, 08:54 PM
Or are you just trying to poke holes into it you because you disagree with some of my previous Posts?? Nope, it's a fluff piece. I don't hold anything against you or anybody else and I grew up long ago and have a great life thank you.


So far everbody else that read that report on multiple Boards agreed with it and thought it was an excellent article. Good for them, but it's not a report or an article, it's an editorial. The writer brings zero insight into the event. If that's what they like then fine for them.

"In response, the U.S. took military action against the government in Afghanistan, a country that most Americans could not find on a map and whose grievances they could not understand." What grievances? What goverment?

Here's a link that you may enjoy in regards to Who becomes a Terrorist and Why (http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Sociology-Psychology%20of%20Terrorism.htm)

wushu chik
09-11-2002, 10:24 AM
"On this first observance of Patriot Day we remember and honor those who perished in the terrorist attack on September 11," said U.S. Charge d'Affaires Brad Hanson.

Um, is this a for sure thing...or just for like TODAY??

wushu chik
09-11-2002, 10:26 AM
Sorry for the OT guys, but I am kinda confused!!!!

~Wen~

rubthebuddha
09-11-2002, 10:28 AM
i hope not. patriot day is supposed to remember those folks who fought for american independence back in our revolution.

(darn limeys ;))

but stealing that name is a pretty **** stupid idea. anyone from new england care to comment here?

ewallace
09-11-2002, 11:54 AM
OK, because some of you seem to be a bit confused on where your posts should go....I've compiled the perfect reference chart for you. It is here that you will find where everything that you wanna say should go!


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wushu chik
09-11-2002, 12:03 PM
OK OK OK, Point made.....smartass. You're lucky it's yer d@mn birthday, or i'd have to whoop your ass!!

~Wen~

GreyMystik
09-11-2002, 12:05 PM
PARIS -- A year after the 9/11 attacks on the United States, we know remarkably little about the attackers, or about who really organized the complex operation that seems well beyond the capabilities of amateur terrorists. Among the major questions:



The suicide attackers were apparently middle-class Saudis, though some identities are still in question. They were quiet, well-educated, "westernized" technical students living in Hamburg, Germany, whose links to the bin Laden Afghan-based al-Qaida remain uncertain. Part of the attack planning was done in Spain. The men who piloted the doomed aircraft were trained at American flying schools. Some may have briefly visited Afghanistan, but none resided there or were known al-Qaida members. Were they sent by Osama bin Laden? Bin Laden lauded the attacks that murdered 3,000 civilians, but denied involvement, though a trail of circumstantial evidence leads to him.


Al-Qaida is portrayed by the U.S. government and media as an octopoid, world-wide conspiracy with thousands of members. In fact, Qaida - which began as a guest-house for holy warriors during the 1980s anti-Soviet struggle in Afghanistan, never numbered more than 1,000 men, and usually much less. Today, there are probably only 300 or so hardline Qaida members, scattered mainly in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Europe. But there are numerous other underground, militant Islamic groups that align themselves from time to time with Qaida, or draw inspiration from bin Laden's fiery preachings. Such fighting groups as Egyptian Jihad, Gamma Islamiya, and Algeria's Armed Islamic Groups, have formed a loose anti-American/anti-Israel alliance of convenience. But other Islamic groups, notably Lebanon's Hezbollah, have nothing to do with al-Qaida. Nor do Iraq and Syria, whose rulers have been targets of bin Laden's wrath for a decade.

Taliban and a variety of Muslim resistance groups - Kashmiri independence fighters, anti-communist insurgents from Tajikistan and Uzbekistan, Filipino Moros, and Uighurs fighting China's ethnic absorption of Eastern Turkestan (Chinese Sinjiang), have all been lumped together as "Qaida." Some of these Islamic International Brigades were trained in old Afghan camps originally funded by CIA. Others went through two service support and commando training camps run by al-Qaida - a sort of Islamic version of Ft. Bragg, home of the U.S. Green Berets. The biggest camps were not run by Qaida, but by ISI - Pakistani intelligence - preparing holy warriors, or "jihadis," for combat in Indian-held Kashmir. Many of the 1,000 prisoners captured and murdered by Uzbek forces of Gen. Rashid Dostam - assisted by U.S. Special Forces - were from the international brigades.


President George Bush claimed America was attacked because the assailants "hated" democracy and America's way of life. He describes terrorism as pure evil, unrelated to any specific political events. This is nonsense. The U.S. was attacked because of its deep involvement in Mideast affairs, and total backing for Israel's iron-fisted repression of the Palestinians. In July, Washington agreed to Israel's request to replenish huge amounts of heavy munitions used in crushing the Palestinian intifada. These included $80 million US worth of TOW heavy anti-tank missiles to be fired at buildings, tank shells packed with thousands of razor-sharp flechettes, and Hellfire air-to-ground missiles. Israel reportedly used more heavy munitions against Palestinians in one week last April than it expended in the previous 20 years. American money and weapons kill Arabs, Arabs kill Americans.

Bin Laden arrogated to himself the right to champion revenge against the United States for the bloodbath in Palestine. "There will be no peace in America," bin Laden warned, "until there is peace in Palestine." These frightening words were never widely reported in the North American media, which is filled with uninformed commentators explaining why Muslims are inherently bloodthirsty or anti-western. America's virtual military occupation of Saudi Arabia, its punishment of Iraq that caused at least 500,000 civilian deaths, and Bush's planned jihad against Iraq have enraged the entire Islamic world against the United States. There is little doubt more attacks against American targets will be coming. Such is the cost of empire.


Did the 9/11 perpetrators foresee the immense damage they would inflict on the United States? Besides the 3,000 Americans murdered, $70 billion in property losses; $10 billion so far of airline losses; insurance rates across the U.S. soaring by up to 300%. 9/11 helped puncture the stock market tech bubble that brought $3 trillion in equity losses that cost 160,000 jobs. The next attack on the U.S. may be designed to cause more economic mayhem rather than kill people, targeting telecommunications nodes, power systems and airports.


9/11 triggered a psychotic episode in the Bush administration, producing a futile invasion of Afghanistan; plans for war against Iraq, and possibly Iran, spurred by the embarrassing failure to find bin Laden or crush al-Qaida. A massive, $32-billion increase to a preposterous $396-billion defence budget - 36% of total world military spending - as the deficit soars towards $150 billion. And Bush's crass rejection of international accords on criminal justice, free trade, environmental protection, disarmament, and human rights has damaged America's good name abroad. The rest of the world, deeply dismayed, wonders when the Bush administration will recover its senses.


anyone who wants to read the full article:

http://www.canoe.ca/Columnists/margolis_sep8.html

dezhen2001
09-11-2002, 12:13 PM
what a great start to the day - eh wen? :D Hope ur having a good one! :)

david

Radhnoti
09-11-2002, 12:53 PM
:D
I'll bet ewallace has been DYING to use that on wushuchik ever since she posted that. Classic.
Happy b-day.
:)

wushu chik
09-11-2002, 12:55 PM
I am sure he has too!!

ewallace
09-11-2002, 12:59 PM
Well Geez this is a fu(king Kung Fu forum. I am tired of all these OT threads and I could really care less about people who don't smoke pot and I could give a rats ass if you are not a MMA.

KC Elbows
09-11-2002, 02:15 PM
I've got a friend who's not a MMA. Can he have his rat's @ss now?:D

ewallace
09-11-2002, 02:17 PM
Sure it's for your friend KC...sure it is.

KC Elbows
09-11-2002, 02:20 PM
;)

KC Elbows
09-11-2002, 02:30 PM
Well, I for one had a weird day. Driving into work was weird, as that's what I was doing when the first tower got hit last year. Working was weird, as I just felt like "Well if they hit right here, that would sufficiently suck". Driving home from work should be weird as well.

Fortunately, I'm well accustomed to weird.

rubthebuddha
09-11-2002, 03:59 PM
jebus. all this threadjacking and not a single mention of a bacon sammich? i'm disappointed. :mad:

Budokan
09-11-2002, 04:01 PM
Gimme one o' dem dere BBQ pork sammiches!:D

African Tiger
09-11-2002, 07:11 PM
My future wife posting an OT thread - amazing!

African Tiger
09-11-2002, 07:14 PM
Well I got two cavities filled and a deep cleaning today. Does that count as celebrating?

:p

Shadow Dragon
09-11-2002, 07:20 PM
I and my family spend the day as normal, but avoided all News and special documentaries on the telly.

I don't need to see images to remind myself of what happened 1 yr ago.

Time to get on with life.

African Tiger
09-11-2002, 07:21 PM
No ****, shadow. I didn't even turn on the TV until I got back from the dentist. Even then, there's a few more specials on out here in L.A., so my boob tube won't be on at all tonight.

joedoe
09-11-2002, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by Shadow Dragon
I and my family spend the day as normal, but avoided all News and special documentaries on the telly.

I don't need to see images to remind myself of what happened 1 yr ago.

Time to get on with life.

Amen to that.

respectmankind
09-11-2002, 08:27 PM
not to offend anyone (certainly not my intention) but i never have heard this serious issue (to me) addressed. would any americans (only) give a flying **** if this happened to say... russia instead of us. i personal hate to see this turned into a patriotic and commercial rememberence

rogue
09-11-2002, 08:31 PM
It's amazing how some can still let hatred for a country get in the way of facts. Hope you all had a joyous day.:)

Shadow Dragon
09-11-2002, 08:44 PM
Rogue.

If there is smoke, something is smoldering somewhere which might turn into a fire.

A lot of people worldwide are not happy with the USA for a variety of reason.

Using a quick estimate I would guess there are more people currently unhappy with the USA than there are US Citizens.

Something to ponder.
Amercia is a fairsized country with a good economy.
But it does consist of a small percentage of the world population and economy.

I am personally not happy with the USA because of the Kyoto treaty, ABM treaty, ICC, foreign policy and a few other things.

One thing that made me very sad is the way that Computers are dumped in Asia and are polluting the environment there.
Happy, that my own country has a law forbidding those practices.

Cheers.

rogue
09-11-2002, 08:48 PM
Just another profitable day at a clients. Kids were asking a bunch of questions again.

respectmankind, I also don't remember people lighting a candle for all the IRA bombings in England.

Now this is weird (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=519&u=/ap/20020912/ap_on_re_us/brf_sept_11_lottery_1&printer=1)

Shadow Dragon
09-11-2002, 08:53 PM
Rogue.

In asia 0911 and 1109 were considered very lucky numbers this Year.

Nothing to do with Terrorism, just that asians got a love for gambling and always hunting for lucky numbers.

Wait till you see an asian calendar, some days are licky for business, other for gambling, marriage, travel, etc.

Cheers.

rogue
09-11-2002, 09:14 PM
What country you from SD?

Oddly many of those same countries that are mad about our pollution like to sell us their cars.

What about this? (http://www.ipa-france.net/congshop/SmithCookingfires.htm)

and this (http://www.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/12/19/africa.drought/)

and since this a board about Asian arts (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/DailyNews/browncloud_020812.html)

Happy, that my own country has technology to not need those practices. :D

The solution! (http://www.solarovens.org/need.html) Just hope they aren't too hungry.

Shadow Dragon
09-11-2002, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by rogue
What country you from SD?


EU-Citizen.

Cheers.

rogue
09-11-2002, 09:24 PM
I hear you, I used to work with several Chinese and they were always gambling or taking up in some risky financial venture. Most always ended on the losing end, but still I liked their spirit.

Here's another (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=520&u=/ap/20020911/ap_wo_en_bu/us_911_futures_1&printer=1)

friday
09-11-2002, 09:38 PM
Published on Monday, September 9, 2002 in the Guardian/UK
Drain the Swamp and There Will Be No More MosquitoesBy attacking Iraq, the US will invite a new wave of terrorist attacks
by Noam Chomsky

heres another article that possibly offers a different view point

all interesting reads

not sure if its 100% genuine as i received via email from a friend

friday
09-11-2002, 09:41 PM
Published on Monday, September 9, 2002 in the Guardian/UK
Drain the Swamp and There Will Be No More MosquitoesBy attacking Iraq, the US will invite a new wave of terrorist attacks
by Noam Chomsky

September 11 shocked many Americans into an awareness that they had better pay much closer attention to what the US government does in the world and how it is perceived. Many issues have been opened for discussion that were not on the agenda before. That's all to the good. It is also the merest sanity, if we hope to reduce the likelihood of future atrocities. It may be comforting to pretend that our enemies "hate our freedoms," as President Bush stated, but it is hardly wise to ignore the real world, which conveys different lessons. The president is not the first to ask: "Why do they hate us?" In a staff discussion 44 years ago, President Eisenhower described "the campaign of hatred against us [in the Arab world], not by the governments but by the people". His National Security Council outlined the basic reasons: the US supports corrupt and oppressive governments and is "opposing political or economic progress" because of its interest in controlling the oil resources of the region. Post-September 11 surveys in the Arab world reveal that the same reasons hold today, compounded with resentment over specific policies. Strikingly, that is even true of privileged, western-oriented sectors in the region. To cite just one recent example: in the August 1 issue of Far Eastern Economic Review, the internationally recognized regional specialist Ahmed Rashid writes that in Pakistan "there is growing anger that US support is allowing [Musharraf's] military regime to delay the promise of democracy". Today we do ourselves few favors by choosing to believe that "they hate us" and "hate our freedoms". On the contrary, these are attitudes of people who like Americans and admire much about the US, including its freedoms. What they hate is official policies that deny them the freedoms to which they too aspire. For such reasons, the post-September 11 rantings of Osama bin Laden - for example, about US support for corrupt and brutal regimes, or about the US "invasion" of Saudi Arabia - have a certain resonance, even among those who despise and fear him. From resentment, anger and frustration, terrorist bands hope to draw support and recruits. We should also be aware that much of the world regards Washington as a terrorist regime. In recent years, the US has taken or backed actions in Colombia, Nicaragua, Panama, Sudan and Turkey, to name a few, that meet official US definitions of "terrorism" - that is, when Americans apply the term to enemies. In the most sober establishment journal, Foreign Affairs, Samuel Huntington wrote in 1999: "While the US regularly denounces various countries as 'rogue states,' in the eyes of many countries it is becoming the rogue superpower ... the single greatest external threat to their societies." Such perceptions are not changed by the fact that, on September 11, for the first time, a western country was subjected on home soil to a horrendous terrorist attack of a kind all too familiar to victims of western power. The attack goes far beyond what's sometimes called the "retail terror" of the IRA, FLN or Red Brigades. The September 11 terrorism elicited harsh condemnation throughout the world and an outpouring of sympathy for the innocent victims. But with qualifications. An international Gallup poll in late September found little support for "a military attack" by the US in Afghanistan. In Latin America, the region with the most experience of US intervention, support ranged from 2% in Mexico to 16% in Panama. The current "campaign of hatred" in the Arab world is, of course, also fueled by US policies toward Israel-Palestine and Iraq. The US has provided the crucial support for Israel's harsh military occupation, now in its 35th year. One way for the US to lessen Israeli-Palestinian tensions would be to stop refusing to join the long-standing international consensus that calls for recognition of the right of all states in the region to live in peace and security, including a Palestinian state in the currently occupied territories (perhaps with minor and mutual border adjustments). In Iraq, a decade of harsh sanctions under US pressure has strengthened Saddam Hussein while leading to the death of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis - perhaps more people "than have been slain by all so-called weapons of mass destruction throughout history", military analysts John and Karl Mueller wrote in Foreign Affairs in 1999. Washington's present justifications to attack Iraq have far less credibility than when President Bush Sr was welcoming Saddam as an ally and a trading partner after he had committed his worst brutalities - as in Halabja, where Iraq attacked Kurds with poison gas in 1988. At the time, the murderer Saddam was more dangerous than he is today. As for a US attack against Iraq, no one, including Donald Rumsfeld, can realistically guess the possible costs and consequences. Radical Islamist extremists surely hope that an attack on Iraq will kill many people and destroy much of the country, providing recruits for terrorist actions. They presumably also welcome the "Bush doctrine" that proclaims the right of attack against potential threats, which are virtually limitless. The president has announced: "There's no telling how many wars it will take to secure freedom in the homeland." That's true. Threats are everywhere, even at home. The prescription for endless war poses a far greater danger to Americans than perceived enemies do, for reasons the terrorist organizations understand very well. Twenty years ago, the former head of Israeli military intelligence, Yehoshaphat Harkabi, also a leading Arabist, made a point that still holds true. "To offer an honorable solution to the Palestinians respecting their right to self-determination: that is the solution of the problem of terrorism," he said. "When the swamp disappears, there will be no more mosquitoes." At the time, Israel enjoyed the virtual immunity from retaliation within the occupied territories that lasted until very recently. But Harkabi's warning was apt, and the lesson applies more generally. Well before September 11 it was understood that with modern technology, the rich and powerful will lose their near monopoly of the means of violence and can expect to suffer atrocities on home soil. If we insist on creating more swamps, there will be more mosquitoes, with awesome capacity for destruction. If we devote our resources to draining the swamps, addressing the roots of the "campaigns of hatred", we can not only reduce the threats we face but also live up to ideals that we profess and that are not beyond reach if we choose to take them seriously. Noam Chomsky is professor of linguistics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and author of the US bestseller 9-11 chomsky@MIT.edu © Noam Chomsky/New York Times Syndicate

Shadow Dragon
09-12-2002, 12:42 AM
U.S. can't eliminate terrorism by going it alone


A year has passed since terrorists carried out the Sept. 11 attacks against the U.S., changing the face of international politics and the fates of so many lives and nations. These unprecedented assaults on civilization also gave us the opportunity to reexamine the meaning of politics and terrorism and the nature of the international community.

More than 2,800 people from 110 countries died at Ground Zero in New York. Since then, more blood has been shed in Afghanistan, and in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. All of these deaths should be mourned equally.

The attacks of Sept. 11 left the deepest scars on the U.S., exposing its vulnerability to terrorists even though it accounts for 40 percent of global military spending. Today, 60 percent of Americans believe that terrorists will carry out future attacks against the U.S.

The world's most powerful nation now fears the asymmetrical threat posed by stateless terrorists and the spread of weapons of mass destruction.

We share the sense of shock and trauma felt by the American people and their government, and must consider hand in hand how to respond to new threats.

From around the time that the U.S. launched its war in Afghanistan, however, two countervailing trends have become apparent in the world -- the compelling need to join the fight against terrorism has been offset by rising hostility against the U.S., its unilateralism, and its determination to crush terrorists and states which sponsor terrorism with sheer force. The world continues to see terrorists who indiscriminately murder civilians as "evil," and as a menace to the values of civil society. But Sept. 11 has given all of us an opportunity to take a hard look at the darker sides of globalization. The poverty, famine, and environmental degradation of the developing world has widened the North-South gap, and exacerbated the sense of inequality. Poverty and hunger may not be the direct causes of terrorism, but many countries have come to recognize that such factors may foster radical fundamentalist thought and anti-Americanism.

Paralleling the cooperative effort against terrorism, over the past year, there have been global efforts to address these problems such as the movement to ratify the Kyoto Protocol, and the World Summit on Sustainable Development.

Despotic governments which spout anti-Americanism, radical fundamentalism, and terrorism will not lead to progress. On the other hand, if the U.S. does not want to be hated, it must change its policy of putting military power and its national interests ahead of the rest of the world. The self-righteous stance of U.S. hardliners on Iraq simply reinforces hostility against the U.S., and could undermine global cooperation.

Japan lost more than 20 of its citizens at the World Trade Center in New York, and is obliged to continue to support the fight against terrorism by taking actions permitted by its Constitution in concert with the world.

Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi is visiting the U.S. on the first anniversary of the terrorist attacks to meet with President George Bush. He will fulfill Japan's responsibility as a U.S. ally by impressing upon President Bush that it is important for the U.S. to take steps to reinforce its cooperation with the international community before it contemplates a war against Iraq.

While the Sept. 11 attacks were directed against the U.S., the shock waves have been felt around the world, so the U.S. should not attempt to shape the world's response to the attacks by going it alone. (From the Mainichi Shimbun, Sept. 10)

GreyMystik
09-12-2002, 05:28 AM
"Patriotism means being loyal to your country all the time and to its government when it deserves it ." - Mark Twain
(emphasis added by me)

rogue
09-12-2002, 10:44 AM
Text of UN Speech (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7737-2002Sep12.html)

Eat this Noam! :D

Buby
09-12-2002, 10:56 AM
"Above all, our principles and our security are challenged today by outlaw groups and regimes that accept no law of morality and have no limit to their violent ambitions." - Pres. Bush

Funny how the good ole' US of A was funding these outlaw groups and regimes Bush is talking about. Aint life a B!TCH!

Buby

Aramus
09-12-2002, 10:59 AM
The US pulled back all response/money/support from all countries. They simply concentrated on home issues and left everyone else alone. I believe that the US would be subject to attack on many fronts b/c nations would feel we aren't doing anything (and we wouldn't be). Plus there would be economies failing, businesses closing, Americans would have to be pulled back to the US, etc. etc.

What if the US was a kindler, gentler nation the insisted on every nation having human standards, no slavery, no unjust systems, human rights, etc.? I believe the US would be subject to attack b/c we would be too involved in other worlds...the super meddler.

What if the US was only out to make the environment safe (screw everything else except human rights.). A happier greener planet. No more wasting of the environmnet. Yep, more terror I'm sure.

When you stand up for anything you increase your chances of getting hit. The US is not a saint, point me to one country that is? Tell me about what they have done for the world and their impact. Politics and governments deal in shades of grade. What is great for the environment may leave many people jobless or without homes or both. What is good for some people may be not so good for others. It is hard to find that fine line to tread. What someone thinks of as good and moral, another will find to be evil and unforgivable. Who is the judge?

Peace to all I hope a few people can come up with a good answer.

The Willow Sword
09-12-2002, 11:38 AM
on us on 9-11-01 i look at what prompted the attacks. our foreign policy sucks and it was inevitable that we were going to reap what we sowed over there in the middle east.

now bush wants us to go to war with iraq. screw that.

i hope congree tells Bush to stuff it right back up his A$$. we cant afford to go to war with ANYONE and who is to say that saddam doesnt have nuclear capabilities,,,,i certainly do NOT want to be the recipent of a nuke in my city.

just leave the iraqis alone,,,cut em off from the rest of the world..let them starve let them kill each other in thier own BS and when they are at thier weakest,,,THEN go in and clean house.
it is just TOO risky to send troops in there now and have them suffer the same things that they suffered during the gulf war.

MRTWS

Ryu
09-12-2002, 11:41 AM
Willow Sword, I agree with you IN THEORY.

IN THEORY, communism works. IN theory...


:D

(simpson's reference. Always wanted to work it in somehow!)

Ryu

GreyMystik
09-12-2002, 11:41 AM
unfortunately congress already practically gave bush a blank check to do whatever he wants ... it was the so-called PATRIOT act (a mysnomer if i've ever seen one)

technically he doesn't have to have the approval of ANYONE to bomb the living hell out of a country.

dezhen2001
09-12-2002, 11:44 AM
i think it's one of the worst things that could happen... ever...
U reap what U sow i guess...:(

david

The Willow Sword
09-12-2002, 11:53 AM
alot of the right wing fundamentalists are skeptical about bushs plan to go to war with iraq.

ryu: where the fuk does communism come into play? is it communism to leave a stupid country alone and let them die in their own crap? its not callled communism,,its called "neutrality".

and if mr bush wants to get re-elected he better think hard about pressing the button on iraq. our economy is in a slump to begin with,,this war will not be like ww2 where it was profitable.

just send in an elite recon team and take saddams A$$ out. we can do it,,we have those capabilities,,,,,,,bush wants to cure the headache by cutting off the head,,,just do a little bit of surgery with saddam and some of his top military advisors and cabinet men and then go in and clean house...that in my opinion would be a better solution.

MRTWS

KC Elbows
09-12-2002, 11:56 AM
Ryu's communism comment was not meant to be politically related to the conversation, it was just a tie in to the in theory part, and overall a tie in to the Simpsons.

Badger
09-12-2002, 12:01 PM
Anytime you can tie in to the Simpsons it's cool.

WooHoo!

The Willow Sword
09-12-2002, 12:14 PM
i see

wufupaul
09-12-2002, 01:54 PM
Here are some even funnier quotes, Rogue, :D http://slate.msn.com//?id=76886 I even put one in my sig.

Cipher
09-12-2002, 02:32 PM
That was a great speech, thanks for posting it as I was not able to hear it when it happened.

omegapoint
09-12-2002, 02:45 PM
Blessings to all the innocent workers who had to suffer for being misrepresented.

This happened b/c sociopaths run s h i t everywhere. They are ruthless because they have no feelings for anyone/thing except themselves.

Our government falsely represents our system as A government of the people, by the people and for the people. This results in folks of other nationalities believing that we have some real say or pull in this "representative, pluralistic" form of government.

The result of this is WTO riots, embassy bombings, and WTC disasters. The writing truly was and is on the wall. People laugh at conspriracy theories, but there is enough proof for the knowing now to make conspiracy a matter-of-fact. It's just as symbolic for those psycopaths in Al Qaeda as it is for our Politicians. They are all bands of assassins, sending others to do their dirty work. A true mark of cowardice.

They are the same people. That's why many of our worst enemies used to be real good friends!
I support our troops but not the reasoning. There is usually no logic behind decisions to got to war. It's an animalistic, emotional thing, and an infinite struggle to control others.

Today I will sit and wonder what the f u c k people are thinking. WAKE UP!!! PEOPLE DIED BECAUSE YOU ARE FALSELY REPRESENTED AROUND THE WORLD. TAKE CONTROL AND GET YOUR HEADS OUT YOUR ARSES. IF YOU DON'T LEAD AND THINK FOR YOURSELF OTHERS WILL DO IT FOR YOU! It's time for some real delta, for some real change. The revolution has begun. It will not be televised. Mental architecture will slowly adapt to the future and this killer ape thing will be dead with the killer apes, haha.

There is more than one way to "skin a cat".

The Willow Sword
09-12-2002, 02:55 PM
i have the "Bushisms" book. i had a fun time reading it.


MRTWS:D

PaulLin
09-12-2002, 04:34 PM
No matter how this political game will be played, I am sure we, the people, are one of the loser.

Felipe Bido
09-12-2002, 04:41 PM
Yesterday a man from Pakistan was captured by the police while trying to board a plane in Dominican Republic. The guy was investigated for suspicious behavior, and while he was waiting in line of Air France airlines to check his passport, the airport police asked him to step out to answer a few questions. The guy tried to escape, but was captured in the airport's parking lot.


He had a knife hidden in his handbag. His passport shows no sign of having ever entered the dominican territory. He's being held and questioned, and has supposedly shown signs of mental inestability.


..and knowing the questioning methods of my country, it's very possible that the guy is missing a few teeth by now.

rubthebuddha
09-12-2002, 04:59 PM
heh. DR's got nothin on new yawk. just hide the mop handles. :eek:

I.M. Toast
09-12-2002, 05:12 PM
I have never appreciated the "U.S. deserves what they got due to their bad foreign policy" argument. Sure, we have made mistakes but there are two main things to consider:
1. Most of our foreign policy in that area was a reaction to Soviet involvement and governments already hostile to the U.S. Example: We "supported" Sadam because he was at war with our then foes, the Iranian Government, who was holding american hostages at that time.
2. The treaty of Versailles had, in my view, somewhat Draconian terms against Germany after WW I. Because of these Draconian terms, did France "deserve" to be invaded? Hardly.

WS: It seems to me that history shows "containment" doesn't work. We could not contain Hitler, we had to destroy him. Rome was not able to contain the Huns. The Han were not able to contain the Mongols. The only instance in which I can see containment working was with the Soviet Union, in which we used tactics that you claim got us into this mess.

I.M.T.

P.S. I remember when Clinton sent troops to invade Haiti and supported a regime change there. I wonder how many of you complained at his actions.

joedoe
09-12-2002, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by I.M. Toast
<snip> ...
2. The treaty of Versailles had, in my view, somewhat Draconian terms against Germany after WW I. Because of these Draconian terms, did France "deserve" to be invaded? Hardly.
<snip>...

Yes they did for 3 reasons

1) They are French
2) They let the Germans march in.
3) They are French.

:D

LEGEND
09-12-2002, 09:17 PM
LOL...hahahhahahahaah!!!!

Serpent
09-12-2002, 09:47 PM
Also, don't forget that they surrender at the slightest hint of trouble. I heard there was a freak thunderstorm the other day and before the first peal of thunder had faded away the French had made their official surrender, asking the UN who it was this time that was after their cheese and wine.

And they're French.

joedoe
09-12-2002, 10:38 PM
Last time I flew over France on my way to London I f@rted and they surrendered to us. :D

Serpent
09-12-2002, 10:40 PM
Yeah, but I heard about you man. You could make a herd of cows surrender with one of your f@rts!

SevenStar
09-12-2002, 10:51 PM
On 9/11, there was a flight from TN to Nevada that was stopped early in Arkansas. The news said that they thought there was a threat of terrorism, but ultimately there was not....my friend told me what his dad said actually happened, as he was on the plane and helped to foil them.

there were three arabic guys that were sitting in close proximity to eachother on the plane. They were acting weird from the get go, and one of them stood up and went into the bathroom, even thought the no walking light was on. the stewardess had noticed the strange behavior and asked several male passengers to keep an eye on the guys just in case. My friend's dad flies alot and so he knew the stewardess from previous flights. He was one of the men the stewardess had asked to keep lookout. the man in the bathroom had been in there for an excess of 10 mins, so one of the lookouts knocked on the door and asked what he was doing. The guy replied "I'm shaving"

red flag 1: some of these terrorist groups are known to shave their body hair before a suicide.

red flag 2. how did he get a razor on the plane?

The man is made to come out of the bathroom, and there is hair all over the place. As he sat down, another of the arabic men went into the bathroom. he too was in there in excess fo 10 mins and was forced out.as the third man got up, my friend's dad pushed the man back into his seat and said "Oh no you don't. Sit the **** down." About the same time, the plane changed course and the pilots announced that they had to make an unsheduled stop. The plane landed in arkansas and was greeted by police and fire department. the men were detained.

joedoe
09-12-2002, 11:02 PM
I am calling bull**** - it would take an Arab way more than 10 minutes to shave their body :D

Seriously though, that is really interesting and a little scary. Or maybe the other way round - really scary and a little interesting.

Any further news on whether they were for real or not?

Serpent
09-12-2002, 11:02 PM
Interesting story. Why wouldn't they get razor blades on the plane? They got box-cutters on. It might be different now, but back then people were walking onto planes with all sorts of stuff.

The stewardesses asking other passengers to watch each other is a little bit fishy and a questionable practice. Still, these days people on planes are watching out all over the place anyway!

So, interesting story. Why do they shave I wonder?

Anyhoo, I much preferred this thread when it went off into a tangent of French-bashing and JoeDoe's f@rts. Stop hijacking our hijack! ;)

Serpent
09-12-2002, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by joedoe
I am calling bull**** - it would take an Arab way more than 10 minutes to shave their body :D


LOL!

respectmankind
09-12-2002, 11:41 PM
think an arab is hairy? try someone who at 17 had a happy trail that led from their chest to their toes.

Serpent
09-12-2002, 11:42 PM
Freak.

respectmankind
09-12-2002, 11:45 PM
thats all i ever heard during the showering after practice. is it that odd? really?

Serpent
09-12-2002, 11:48 PM
No mate, it's not that odd.

Just freaky.

;)

respectmankind
09-12-2002, 11:59 PM
but in all seriousness... got in a fight over that racism thing today.... i hate stupid people.

respectmankind
09-13-2002, 12:00 AM
thankfuly by fight i mean 'words' were exchanged and i won the debate.

joedoe
09-13-2002, 12:04 AM
Racism sucks mkay???

Seriously, I had to grow up with racism, but at least now things are much better here. People are pretty tolerant in Australia.

So say it with me - racism sucks mkay?

Xebsball
09-13-2002, 12:08 AM
you can do it - its all up to you
mkay

with a little plan you can change your life
today

:D


racism truly sucks.

SevenStar
09-13-2002, 06:31 AM
sasquatch.

I don't really have any other news yet. the news said that they took a box from one of the men, then blew it up. They then went on to say they didn't find any bombs or anything. My question is why would they blow it up instead of trying to see what was in it? And if they didn't suspect terrorism, why did they blow it up?

Merryprankster
09-13-2002, 07:02 AM
What did I do 9/11/02?

I'm a terrorism analyst. I was very busy :)

rogue
09-13-2002, 08:19 PM
Good week for catching bad guys (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/13/attack/main522017.shtml) :)

MP, are you a Marine?

I'm sure these guys and the Fla. cops are having a good laugh over this little prank. (http://krd.realcities.com/ads/media/network/home/popup3.htm) ;)

yenhoi
09-18-2002, 10:01 AM
Merry:

really?

Others:

What happened to the 'stupid terrosit tricks' thread?

Curious.

UltimateFighter
09-18-2002, 11:43 AM
Bloody Americans........they use 60% of the worlds resources (starving others and directly killing MILLIONS in the 3rd world each year), and expect sympathy?!!!!!!!!!

red5angel
09-18-2002, 12:52 PM
Ultimate fighter, you are on ignorant man, and I feel for you and anyone who you inflict yourself on. the statements you just made are inaprorpiate.

Have you guys seen this?:

************************************************** *********************
I've been trying to say this since 9-11.
I guess I will be labeled as a bigoted American.

By: American Airlines Pilot - Captain John Maniscalco
************************************************** **********************

"You worry me. I wish you didn't. I wish when I walked down the streets of this country that I love, that your color and culture still
blended with the beautiful human landscape we enjoy in this country. But you don't blend in anymore. I notice you, and it worries me.
I notice you because I can't help it anymore. People from your homelands, professing to be Muslims, have been attacking and killing my fellow
citizens and our friends for more than 20 years now. I don't fully understand their grievances and hate, but I know that nothing can justify the
inhumanity of their attacks.

On September 11, nineteen ARAB-MUSLIMS hijacked four jetliners in my country. They cut the throats of women in front of children and
brutally stabbed to death others. They took control of those planes and crashed them into buildings killing thousands of proud fathers,
loving sons, wise grandparents, elegant daughters, best friends, favorite coaches, fearless public servants, and children's mothers.

So I notice you now. I don't want to be worried. I don't want to be consumed by the same rage and hate and prejudice that has destroyed
the soul of these terrorists. But I need your help. As a rational American, trying to protect my country and family in an irrational and unsafe world, I
must know how to tell the difference between you, and the Arab/Muslim terrorist. How do I differentiate between the true Arab-Muslim-Americans and the
Arab-Muslims in our communities who are attending our schools, enjoying our parks, and living in OUR communities under the protection of OUR
constitution, while they plot the next attack that will slaughter those very same good neighbors and children? The events of September 11th changed
the answer. It is not my responsibility to determine which of you embraces our great country, with ALL of it's religions, with ALL of it's different
citizens, with all of it's faults. It is time for every Arab-Muslim in this country to determine it for me.

I want to know, I demand to know, and I have a right to know whether or not you love America. Do you pledge allegiance to it's flag?
Do you proudly display it in front of your house, or on your car? Do you pray in your many daily prayers that Allah will bless this nation?
That He will protect and prosper it? Or do you pray that Allah with destroy it in one of your "Jihads" ? Are you thankful for the freedom
that only this nation affords? A freedom that was paid for by the blood of hundreds of thousands of patriots who gave their lives for this
country? Are you willing to preserve this freedom by paying the ultimate sacrifice? Do you love America? If this is your commitment,
then I need YOU to start letting ME know about it.

Your Muslim leaders in this nation should be flooding the media at this time with hard facts on your faith, and what hard actions you are
taking as a community and as a religion to protect the United States of America. Please, no more benign overtures of regret for the death of
the innocent because I worry about who you regard as innocent. And no more benign overtures of condemnation for the unprovoked attacks because I
worry about what is unprovoked to you. I am not interested in any more sympathy...I am only interested in action. What will you do for
America - our great country -- at this time of crisis, at this time of war?

I want to see Arab-Muslims waving the AMERICAN flag in the streets. I want to hear you chanting "Allah Bless America."
I want to see young Arab-Muslim men enlisting in the military. I want to see a commitment of money, time, and emotion to the victims of this
butchering and to this nation as a whole.

The FBI has a list of over 400 people they want to talk to regarding the WTC attack. Many of these people live and socialize in Muslim communities.
You know them. You know where they are. Hand them over to us, now!

But I have seen little even approaching this sort of action. Instead I have seen an already closed and secretive community close even tighter.
You have disappeared from the streets. You have posted armed security guards at your facilities. You have threatened lawsuits.
You have screamed for protection from reprisals. The very few Arab-Muslim representatives that HAVE appeared in the media were defensive
and equivocating. They seemed more concerned with making sure that the United States prove who was responsible before taking action.
They seemed more concerned with protecting their fellow Muslims from violence directed towards them in the United States and abroad than they
did with supporting our country and denouncing "leaders" like Khadafi, Hussein, Farrakhan, and Arafat. If the true teachings of Islam proclaim tolerance
and peace and love for all people then I want chapter and verse from the Koran and statements from popular Muslim leaders to back it up.
What good is it if the teachings in the Koran are good and pure and true when your "leaders" are teaching fanatical interpretations, terrorism,
and intolerance.

It matters little how good Islam SHOULD BE if large numbers of the world's Muslims interpret the teachings of Mohammed incorrectly and
adhere to a degenerative form of the religion. A form that has been demonstrated to us over and over again. A form whose structure is built upon a
foundation of violence, death, and suicide. A form whose members are recruited from the prisons around the world. A form whose members
defended Johnny Cochran and O. J. Simpson after the latter butchered his wife and murdered an innocent friend. A form whose members
(some as young as five years old) are seen day after day, week in and week out, year after year, marching in the streets around the world,
burning effigies of our presidents, burning the American flag, shooting weapons into the air. A form whose members convert from a peaceful religion,
only to take up arms against the great United States of America, the country of their birth. form whose rules are so twisted, that their traveling
members refuse to show their faces at airport security checkpoints, in the name of Islam.

Do you and your fellow Muslims hate us because our women proudly show their faces in public rather than cover up like a shameful *****?

Do you and your fellow Muslims hate us because we drink wine with dinner, or celebrate Christmas? Do you and your fellow Muslims hate us
because we have befriended Israel, the ONLY civilized democratic nation in the entire middle-east? And if you and your fellow Muslims hate us,
then why in the world are you even here?

Are you here to take our money? Are you here to undermine our peace and stability? Are you here to destroy us? If so, I want you to leave.
I want you to go back to your desert sandpit where women are treated like rats and dogs. I want you to take your religion, your friends, and your
family back to your Islamic extremists, and STAY THERE!

We will NEVER give in to your influence, your retarded mentality, your twisted, violent, intolerant religion. We will NEVER allow the attacks
of September 11, or any others for that matter, to take away that which is so precious to us: Our rights under the greatest constitution in the world.

I want to know where every Arab-Muslim in this country stands and I think it is my right and the right of every true citizen of this country to
demand it. A right paid for by the blood of thousands of my brothers and sisters who died protecting the very constitution that is protecting you and
your family. I am pleading with you to let me know. I want you here as my brother, my neighbor, my friend, as a fellow American. But there can
be no gray areas or ambivalence regarding your allegiance and it is up to YOU, to show ME, where YOU stand."

"Until then ... you worry me."
************************************************** **********************

yenhoi
09-18-2002, 01:32 PM
Thats actually pretty funny UltimateFighter, seeings how your from england.

:rolleyes:

KC Elbows
09-19-2002, 07:58 AM
Saw a commercial the other day that just ticked me off.

Everyone's in such a rush to look patriotic, every frickin ad is just over the top, it's to the point where fuji ads feature the US flag.

Anyway, I think it was a jeans add, and it showed what were "typical" american scenes, and settled on the flag, while CCR was playing:

"Some folks are born made to wave the flag
ooh the red white and blue"

End of ad.

Anyone know the rest of that verse and the chorus? Somehow, I don't think the producers of that ad were trying to pull a yippie sort of prank with that one.

Also, do you think in the long run that it will look favourably on Bush that he pulled the US out of peace talks in palestine, which was much criticized at the time, and all hell broke loose in the middle east not long thereafter?

[end of rant]

KC Elbows
09-19-2002, 08:27 AM
Well, I had some of the words wrong, but here's the official words.


FORTUNATE SON (J.C. Fogerty)

Some folks are born made to wave the flag,
Ooh, they're red, white and blue.
And when the band plays "Hail to the chief",
Ooh, they point the cannon at you, Lord,

It ain't me, it ain't me, I ain't no senator's son, son.
It ain't me, it ain't me; I ain't no fortunate one, no,

Yeah!
Some folks are born silver spoon in hand,
Lord, don't they help themselves, oh.
But when the taxman comes to the door,
Lord, the house looks like a rummage sale, yes,

It ain't me, it ain't me, I ain't no millionaire's son, no.
It ain't me, it ain't me; I ain't no fortunate one, no.

Some folks inherit star spangled eyes,
Ooh, they send you down to war, Lord,
And when you ask them, "How much should we give?"
Ooh, they only answer More! more! more! yoh,

It ain't me, it ain't me, I ain't no military son, son.
It ain't me, it ain't me; I ain't no fortunate one, one.

It ain't me, it ain't me, I ain't no fortunate one, no no no,
It ain't me, it ain't me, I ain't no fortunate son, no no no,

red5angel
09-19-2002, 08:34 AM
KC, I caught that too, I happen to be a fan of CCR and thought it was odd to stick that song in a patriotic ad. Good song though.

KC Elbows
09-19-2002, 08:48 AM
Yeah, it's a good song, yet really ironic that it is used to fan a nationalistic fervor.

Why don't we use half of "Give Peace a Chance" for an airline ad, just cut out the chorus, throw a bunch of jet planes and a Lincoln statue or two, the obligitory flag, and a blonde with nice honeydews?

I'm a little jaded right now. With the upcoming elections, I get to see our election process totally perverted and used by a bunch of scumbags.

Candidate 1's ad:

Candidate 2 says he's for women's rights. What he really means is he's a ****sucker.

[Insert pic of Candidate 2 hugging a child]Do you want this ****sucker in congress?

Brought to you by the Council of Goodness and Fairness




Candidate 2's ad:

Candidate 1 tells us he's for educational reform, yet his own son is a fringe psychotic ready to snap in the middle of civics class. [Show pic of son and dad]. Do you want someone like this to have access to your representative?

[show woman with bad bob]

WOMAN WITH BAD BOB: I know I sure don't!

Brought to you by the Foundation For Giving Opinions to the Unwashed Masses

red5angel
09-19-2002, 09:02 AM
LOL! @ KC!

PLCrane
09-19-2002, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by red5angel


By: American Airlines Pilot - Captain John Maniscalco
************************************************** **********************
<snip>
lp. As a rational American, trying to protect my country and family in an irrational and unsafe world, I
must know how to tell the difference between you, and the Arab/Muslim terrorist.
<snip>


Yeah, that would be nice, but I'd really be more interested in being able to tell the difference between our own real leaders and the ones who lie, buy, and cheat their way into office and then work behind the scenes to undermine democracy both at home and abroad for personal profit..

And, yeah, I have someone specific in mind.

KC, the flag shtick in the ads is to maintain a patriotic trance in the viewers that precludes any questioning or self-analysis. Maybe some underling in the ad agency picked out the tune without telling their boss what the rest of the words were.

PLC (donning asbestos suit)

red5angel
09-19-2002, 10:45 AM
I'd be willing to bet they knew what the song is all about when they stuck it in, but like anything else, the media makes an art form out of twisiting the truth.

yenhoi
09-19-2002, 11:04 AM
Politicians have always played the politics game. Good luck changing them now guys.

Politics have always been politics. Good luck changing politics now.

In 'modern' times nearly everything is driven literally by money, why would you expect politicians and members of the media to be any different?

red5angel
09-19-2002, 11:11 AM
Yenhoi, I think most things have always been driven by survival, now that there is more luxury then survival I think that desire has just magnified to greed.

Hieronim
04-22-2006, 07:15 PM
http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/wtc7_german_minister_says_building_7_was_hq.htm

David Jamieson
04-23-2006, 06:15 AM
guy, conspiracy sites don't get much street cred here.

you gotta use the maintsream media if you're gonna make any quotes or the like about the tinfoil hat situations around the world.

:p

Merryprankster
04-23-2006, 09:19 AM
OT: was 9-11 an inside job?

No.

Hope that helps!

Royal Dragon
04-23-2006, 09:58 AM
Personally, I don't see how it could be an inside job. With the goal in mind, any number of measures could have been taken rather than strike at our own national treasures.
It just seems like a dumb idea.

It's like shooting your own left arm, and then blaming it on someone else as an excuses to shoot them too. It would be better to shoot the wall, so you have a bullet hole to refere to, and then make that claim. You don't get hurt that way.

I just don't see ANYONE in this country being THAT cold blooded.

Strife
04-23-2006, 11:03 AM
http://gprime.net/flash.php/911pentagonstrikeconspiracy#Main

the WTC buildings collapsing look more like a controlled demolition to me, and why would the american government do it? to make sure they have the public backing them as they waltz into the cradle of life and steal all its oil.

greed.

"I just don't see ANYONE in this country being THAT cold blooded."

its not surprising to see a statement like this. if you think this, then one can assume you know little bout american history, or it could be that one is completely brainwashed. no offense intended, its just how pretty much every other country thinks of americans now.

and Iran is not Iraq. good luck.

David Jamieson
04-23-2006, 12:42 PM
all i know is that the trade center was marked by the likes of those accused before and in fact there was an attempt to take it down during the previous presidency. Remeber the truck bomb in the basement garage?

Right around the same time the embassies were being bombed by the same group who did the truck bombing and numerous other terrorist acts around the world and against american targets or other targets associated with the USA.

So, while there may be a lot that is being withheld information wise in regards to 911 and this is what is troubling, I think it's a long shot that teh government was working in cahoots with AlQ.

What's scary is that if there was demo charges planted in teh buildings and if it was a guided weapons system taht hit the pentagon then that means that they are far more organized than we are led to believe. This is what bugs me the most about it.

That and the likelyhood that there may be covert involvement and that weapons used may have an internal source. This doesn't indicate implicity, it indicates negligence and incompetence and indifference.

jethro
04-23-2006, 04:34 PM
i heard that it was an inside job and this is all part of a big planto get rid of all guns. Bush and blair have been training in the MA's for a number of years and actually plan on taking over the world with their superior kung fu skill.

Royal Dragon
04-23-2006, 06:08 PM
I actualy started that rummur btw....

jethro
04-23-2006, 09:17 PM
I actualy started that rummur btw....


no you didn't cause you didn't know this----------- raymond chow, lau kar leung, and run run shaw have made sure that there are plenty of ma's trained to go beat down everybody on earth and they are gonna tape it and give it to their son's so they can be rich but the shaw son already has plans to take the footage and just keep it for himself.

chud
04-23-2006, 11:38 PM
The 9/11 victims' families have some questions that they would like the government to answer: http://www.911independentcommission.org/questions.html

Radhnoti
04-24-2006, 06:24 AM
Strife - "...why would the american government do it? to make sure they have the public backing them as they waltz into the cradle of life and steal all its oil."

The gas prices around here seem to indicate that you are wrong. The only thing I ever found the U.S. trying to do with the oil is set things up so the Iraqis could sell it on the world market...which is a far cry from "stealing". Yeah, it helps with the worldwide price to introduce more of a commodity to the market, but if it helps the people who OWN it (Iraqis) it's not stealing.

Otherwise, *gulp* I agree with David. :)

Merryprankster
04-28-2006, 09:03 AM
Strife,

A lot of people think it looked like a controlled demolition - primarily because they aren't familiar with the physics of the situation.

You will see all sorts of stuff about the melting point of steel, why did it drop straight down, etc.

Here are some basic facts that may help you in your research:

The melting point of steel isn't important. In welding, you use an annealing flame to soften metal. Annealing flames are low temp, but when you are done, you can bend the metal quite easily. JP-8 burns at very high temps - even a common household fire can reach 1000 F or more very easily. If you soften load bearing steel even a little, it will no longer be rigid and will collapse quite easily.

The WTCs were designed in a way that basically held all the parts together with tension. It was a revolutionary design. The external walls were actually under tension, with the supporting columns in the center of the building. As the supporting columns softened and began to collapse, they pulled the structure in and down with them. Yes, I realize it was the 80 somethingth floor, but there were many floors above. The rest of the building - although not softened - was not designed to handle the insane stresses of 1/4 of the building falling straight down on top of it.

This is actually, if you think about it, a brilliant way to ensure damage is kept to a minimum in a densely populated area. By designing a building that collapses straight down, you reduce the footprint of the landing - imagine the catastrophe that would have occured if the building was built in a way that encouraged toppling.

Anyway, there are many websites that can show you the actual physics involved and show how it is not only possible, but PROBABLE, that the building would collapse the way it did.

I understand there are also many websites that question all of this. That is where critical thinking comes in. My experiences with metal and onboard ships and at firefighting schools have taught me the dangers of Fuel Oil fires, and the amazing - and common - things they can do - a JP-5 fire in open air can warp HY-100, which is a super strong, super hard steel that is designed to be heat resistant and tough - and that's at a temp far lower than what the WTC's would have experienced.

Kymus
04-28-2006, 12:55 PM
guy, conspiracy sites don't get much street cred here.

you gotta use the maintsream media if you're gonna make any quotes or the like about the tinfoil hat situations around the world.

:p

If you spent some time on the site, you'd see that they quote numerous mainstream, international, and independant media. Their 9/11 archive contains about 600 of these.

Kymus
04-28-2006, 01:00 PM
Personally, I don't see how it could be an inside job. With the goal in mind, any number of measures could have been taken rather than strike at our own national treasures.
It just seems like a dumb idea.

It's like shooting your own left arm, and then blaming it on someone else as an excuses to shoot them too. It would be better to shoot the wall, so you have a bullet hole to refere to, and then make that claim. You don't get hurt that way.

I just don't see ANYONE in this country being THAT cold blooded.

take a look into the Hegelian Dialectic, Reichstage Fire, Nero's fire in Rome, Operation Northwoods, Operation Gladio, Pearl Harbour, Gulf of Tonkin, the list keeps growing.

Kymus
04-28-2006, 01:10 PM
9/11 was indeed an inside job. It was Bush's reichstag fire to bring about Martial Law. I've studdied this issue for nearly two years. I've looked at litterally hundreds of different news articles, and have seen probably over a dozen doccumentaries on the subject (excluding Michael Moore's very pathetic film). But irregardless of this, people just love to turn off their brains on turn on the disinfo to try to discredit this. Don't listen to me, or to anyone. Research the issue for yourself and learn the facts. The government's conspiracy theory doesn't hold up (not to mention that many details are either impropable or impossible).

http://www.infowars.com
http://www.prisonplanet.com

edit: before anyone starts on the usual bullsh!t claim disinfo wagon, why don't I make a few things clear:

1) I'm not a liberal
2) No I don't like Clinton
3) No it wasn't ok when Clinton did it, and it's not okay now
4) John Kerry is a douche bag
5) I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I can doccument everything I claim. When I delve into theories and assumptions, I readily admit to it
6) Calling me names doesn't strengthen your argument in the least
7) I'm not paranoid
8) I'm not a Democrat and I don't support the Democratic Party
9) I've spent countless hours researching this. If you tell me I'm "wrong", I will be expecting a detailed analysis complete with sources.

on your marks, get set, flame!

Skarbromantis
04-28-2006, 01:28 PM
I also agree,

Take some time to really see what Alax Jones is saying, he's the man......where do you think Micheal Moore got all his info from for his mainstream movie, stole it from this guy???

Watch his documentry 911: The Road to Tyranny...see what you think after watching that..

Skard1

Kymus
04-28-2006, 02:59 PM
I also agree,

Take some time to really see what Alax Jones is saying, he's the man......where do you think Micheal Moore got all his info from for his mainstream movie, stole it from this guy???

Watch his documentry 911: The Road to Tyranny...see what you think after watching that..

Skard1

I think it should be added that 911RTT is Bi-partisan in its message and exposes Bill Clinton for the criminal he was as well.

The 2hr Doccumentary film can be viewed here (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1358726890127819985&q=road+to+tyranny&pl=true)

lkfmdc
04-28-2006, 04:00 PM
The conspiracy that everyone is hiding and no one wants to talk about his how Falun Gong in China actually funded the 9-11 attack and trained the pilots that drove the plans into the towers. IN the clouds you can see the face of General Li. It's all true! Just google "Falun and 9-11 funding" and you can read about it on the internet. Which of course makes it 100% true.

Kymus
04-28-2006, 04:36 PM
The conspiracy that everyone is hiding and no one wants to talk about his how Falun Gong in China actually funded the 9-11 attack and trained the pilots that drove the plans into the towers. IN the clouds you can see the face of General Li. It's all true! Just google "Falun and 9-11 funding" and you can read about it on the internet. Which of course makes it 100% true.

it's funny how people have to resort to such poor disinformation tactics like this to attempt to prove the government's conspiracy theory.

What you refuse to acknowledge in your lack of knowledge of either side of this issue is that the claims made by myself and others whom agree with me are backed by numerous media sources. If I wanted to get my info from "some dude" who "says it's so", I'd turn on the TV and listen to the discredited pundits banter on all day about Democrats this and Republicans that.

CaptinPickAxe
04-28-2006, 04:42 PM
Kymus,
LKFMDC is just on his annual "I hate Falun Gong" 2006 tour...



Of course he is right, though.

FG is for nancy boys and geriatrics.

neilhytholt
04-28-2006, 04:43 PM
it's funny how people have to resort to such poor disinformation tactics like this to attempt to prove the government's conspiracy theory.

What you refuse to acknowledge in your lack of knowledge of either side of this issue is that the claims made by myself and others whom agree with me are backed by numerous media sources. If I wanted to get my info from "some dude" who "says it's so", I'd turn on the TV and listen to the discredited pundits banter on all day about Democrats this and Republicans that.

It's kindof funny how everybody's on about this now just like they were with the Kennedy assassination.

Not saying you're right or wrong, just that it seems like this spread a lot faster the the Kennedy thing, evidently because of the Internet.

Basically there are 2 possibilities:

a) It was a big conspiracy, and the CIA is way, way, way more smart and powerful than we think they are.
b) It was not a conspiracy, and the CIA is a bunch of bungling idiots.

Either way, it makes one worry, doesn't it?

Kymus
04-28-2006, 04:52 PM
It's kindof funny how everybody's on about this now just like they were with the Kennedy assassination.

Not saying you're right or wrong, just that it seems like this spread a lot faster the the Kennedy thing, evidently because of the Internet.

Basically there are 2 possibilities:

a) It was a big conspiracy, and the CIA is way, way, way more smart and powerful than we think they are.
b) It was not a conspiracy, and the CIA is a bunch of bungling idiots.

Either way, it makes one worry, doesn't it?

Thank you for an insightful reply Neil. It's not often I see these on such a subject. Generally when someone sees this sort of thread their reasoning skills turn to mush and they start belting out the first piece of crap they can think of. Irregardless though, let me ask you a simple question.

We have litterally 2 dozen (25 in total I believe) intelligence gathering agencies, and every time an attack like this happens, it's blamed on incompetence. Do you find this as implausable as I do? I know Andreas Von Buelow (see original link for more information about this intelligence expert) does. I'm not trying to say that because it's implausable that means I'm right. I'm just trying some critical thinking I guess.

The CIA works in strange ways my friend. I talked to my step father who is a former Green Berret (also a conservative christian fundamentalist. So he's not likely to believe the same things I do) about the fact that they were caught meeting with bin Laden in Dubai in july of 2001 (le figuro times). He told me that based on his eperience, he's not surprised. So we are left with 1 side which assumes they were conspiring with him on behalf of whomever, or the other side that assumes that they were there to try to work out a deal with him. Both sides are very odd.

edit: are you familiar with Operation Northwoods?

neilhytholt
04-28-2006, 06:01 PM
Thank you for an insightful reply Neil. It's not often I see these on such a subject. Generally when someone sees this sort of thread their reasoning skills turn to mush and they start belting out the first piece of crap they can think of. Irregardless though, let me ask you a simple question.

edit: are you familiar with Operation Northwoods?

No, I'm not familiar with that operation.

It just seems like a weird pattern that the people we give money to always seem to turn against us. Saddam Hussein was our guy against Iran, then he turns against us. Taliban and Osama are our guys, then they turn against us, etc. Not to mention the entire fact that 9/11 happened coincidentally during the annual meeting of Carlyle and Bush and Osama bin Laden's family being major stakeholders.

Do they really expect me to believe, that with their spy satellites and intelligence gathering, they couldn't figure out that there weren't any WMDs in Iraq? I could have told you that (and did tell many people that), just based upon my various internet searches before the war and watching the money trails, without any satellite evidence at all.

I prefer to hope, I guess, that these interests if they exist, whatever they are are, are benevolent. This is a topic that I don't really want to think very much about. I have no control over what these people are doing, and I don't really want to wind up in some secret detention area anywhere. :)

bustr
04-28-2006, 07:28 PM
Watch the google video then browse the other links.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260059923762628848&q=%22loose+change%22

http://www.911inplanesite.com/index.html

http://www.rense.com/general56/flfight.htm

Liddel
04-28-2006, 08:11 PM
The fact that they used the excuse that the plane fuel burnt every trace of the plane that hit the pentagon - because they found no plane parts, but yet they could find organic traces to identify passengers bodies is just a laugh....

The fact that Bush got re elected when everyone knows his brother is the head honcho of florida where all the questionable stuff began and that his cousin is the man in charge of the news over at fox is more than enough to raise eyebrows.

The fact that people like the person here who mentioned "ive reasearched this stuff for years" is just LOL funny because most of the international community knew (in thier hearts) all this from the get go ! :D

Bush - man hes good at manufacturing concent for all types of things that he normally wouldnt get away with.

How do we negate the constitution ? :rolleyes: i know ?
America is NOT a free country IMO...Poor *******s.

Ou Ji
04-29-2006, 08:27 AM
I liken it to the fake qi demos we see where the guys fly all over the place from a light touch (the twin towers) and the guy that falls down without being hit (building 7).

Some people actually believe those demos. ;)

Merryprankster
04-29-2006, 08:30 AM
Taliban and Osama are our guys, then they turn against us, etc.

Read Stephen Coll's "ghost wars," on this subject. You may come away with a little different perspective. Boiling things down in such ways tends to disguise the incredible complexity of the situation on the ground.

The fundamental problem I have with conspiracy theories is that they ask us to believe two almost cognitively dissonant things:

1. The government is cohesive/powerful/scary enough to executive vicious, evil conspiracies.

2. They can't do them without leaving a giant trail of evidence behind that any schmoe could discern if they'd just "open their eyes."

I'm in the Coast Guard. I'm sure this will immediately discredit my thoughts for some people, in which case I suggest they maintain the same open mind they encourage others to have. I think it's safe to say we are the leading disaster response agency in the country. I can assure you that yes - it is quite possible that "25" (There are only 16 in the Intelligence community 17, if you count the Office of the DNI) government agencies can totally screw up.

Ou Ji
04-29-2006, 08:50 AM
You know the biggest problem I see with all this stuff is secrecy vs disclosure. When you try to hide things people become suspicious. Then the rumors and conspiracy theories run wild.

If there nothing to hide answer the questions and open things up for investigation. So far all I see with most of these theories is the people in charge doing everything they can to supress information. That sends up a flag right there.

BTW, when you have total control over things there's no need worry about leaving a large trail of evidence. If you look at the progression over the years you see that nobody is really trying to hide things anymore.

Gary Hart caved in to pressure about his little controversy but then look at Clinton.

Nixon was impeached over a whole lot less then the crap subsequent presidents have been mixed up in.

Kymus
04-29-2006, 09:56 AM
The fundamental problem I have with conspiracy theories is that they ask us to believe two almost cognitively dissonant things:

1. The government is cohesive/powerful/scary enough to executive vicious, evil conspiracies.

Are you familiar with Operation Northwoods, Operation Gladio, the "Tuskegee Study", or recent doccumentation of Pearl Harbour & the Gulf of Tonkin incident? If you're familiar with these, what you mentioned shouldn't be too big of a surprise to you, Merryprankster.


2. They can't do them without leaving a giant trail of evidence behind that any schmoe could discern if they'd just "open their eyes."

Hitler's Propaganda campaign worked wonderfully for the Germans. I am not sure how many suspected him, but I know it was very few after his buddy Goebbels started churning things out. Am I making sense here?


I'm in the Coast Guard. I'm sure this will immediately discredit my thoughts for some people

I have friends in the military. Some agreed with me before they joined, and others afterwards. Irregardless though, I think that if someone is going to completely ignore what you have to say because of your job (unless it was the CIA or something), I think they should look for a better argument.


I can assure you that yes - it is quite possible that "25" (There are only 16 in the Intelligence community 17, if you count the Office of the DNI) government agencies can totally screw up.

I am currious; what makes you say this? Do you feel that it's completely possible for this to be the cause of every attack that happens on our soil (or rather, every one that has happened)? I do not work with these agencies, so I'm not gonna tell you that you're wrong because I, personally find it hard to believe. I'll have to dig up that source I found that listed the different intelligence agencies we have. Perhaps you can give me some insight there.

chud
04-30-2006, 08:26 AM
Here's an interesting video on Google Videos:
911 The Road to Tyranny - Alex Jones (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6517776133137328105)

Merryprankster
04-30-2006, 08:46 AM
That source is wrong. There are 17 members of the Intelligence Community:

DIA
CIA
NSA
NRO
NGA

DNI

Army Intel
Navy Intel
Airforce Intel
Marine Corps Intel
Coast Guard Intel

FBI Intel
DOE Intel
State (but only the INR branch)
Treasury Intel
DEA Intel

DHS Intel.

I stuck intel at the end because only the intelligence components of those organizations are actually in the Intelligence community - not the whole agency.



With respect to the rest of the stuff Kymus, I typed out a big long thing and realized I don't much care anymore. You've got a story that you find credible, and I have a story I find credible. I don't think either of us are going to change our minds short of definitive new evidence.

IMO, the only conspiracy theory that is even POSSIBLE, with respect to maintaining secrecy, is the idea that the Bush admin "let it happen," the way some people think Roosevelt let Pearl Harbor happen.

Why? Because it involves the fewest number of people and the fewest working parts, and if history has taught us anything (other than that power does get abused), it is that the larger something is in scope, the harder it is to hide.

Radhnoti
04-30-2006, 01:43 PM
I have a friend that started out in one of the military branches intel and now works for another of the 3 letter intel agencies. He takes his promise not to speak of work pretty seriously, but in a particularly maudlin mood one time he said something to this effect:
"You wouldn't believe the stuff we stop, a tip to this government...a call to this warlord we're backing, even teams when we have to. For a while the HORRIBLE stuff coming out of Russia seemed...I really didn't think we'd stop it all, it was like killing c ockroaches with a flyswatter. For every one thing the public hears about, we've run 100 operations."

This is a good man, a guy who feels like he's protecting U.S. citizens and their way of life. He also talks about the intel bureauocracy and how (just like every government agency) so many people in management are mid-level bean counters trying to hold on to their little "kingdoms". This director hates that director that got "his" funding last Congressional session, etc.
My friend introduced a way to save lots of time and money in his agency...a procedural adjustment using technology already at hand. He got bumped into middle management himself, but so many people felt "stepped on" that they actually sent him out of the country for a few years. He rails, generally, against government bureauocracy whenever I see him now. He feels it's very possible that incompetence has led to the majority of U.S. intel failures.

Kymus
04-30-2006, 01:55 PM
Thanks for the info Merryprankster. If you do not wish to press the issue further, I will not debate you. You've been respectful to me thus far (which is a rare sight for such discussions), so I will give you the same. All I can tell you, if you do not wish to dig up the 600+ (mainstream, international, independant) articles that detail the events and destroy the government's claims, is to be warry of the rising police state and prepare to see the martial law increase in depth. It doesn't matter who is president, the same issues will plague us untill those that bring this storm are exposed. Some think of me as a researcher who looks at both sides and others think of me as a paranoid lunatic. I know this much for sure: everything I've been talking about the past two years has been doccumented, and the things I heard were comming years ago (like Internet2) are showing their ugly heads. Don't fall for the phoney left/right paradigm; it's been one of the biggest controll mechanisms I've seen and continues to grip harder onto people. Bush hangs out at Bohemian Grove (not the sort of place for Christian Conservatives) and Hillary's been seen laughing it up at Fox News corporate parties (uh..?). I'm sorry, I'm ranting.. Amitabha.

Kymus
04-30-2006, 01:59 PM
I have a friend that started out in one of the military branches intel and now works for another of the 3 letter intel agencies. He takes his promise not to speak of work pretty seriously, but in a particularly maudlin mood one time he said something to this effect:
"You wouldn't believe the stuff we stop, a tip to this government...a call to this warlord we're backing, even teams when we have to. For a while the HORRIBLE stuff coming out of Russia seemed...I really didn't think we'd stop it all, it was like killing c ockroaches with a flyswatter. For every one thing the public hears about, we've run 100 operations."

This is a good man, a guy who feels like he's protecting U.S. citizens and their way of life. He also talks about the intel bureauocracy and how (just like every government agency) so many people in management are mid-level bean counters trying to hold on to their little "kingdoms". This director hates that director that got "his" funding last Congressional session, etc.
My friend introduced a way to save lots of time and money in his agency...a procedural adjustment using technology already at hand. He got bumped into middle management himself, but so many people felt "stepped on" that they actually sent him out of the country for a few years. He rails, generally, against government bureauocracy whenever I see him now. He feels it's very possible that incompetence has led to the majority of U.S. intel failures.

Intersting story. I've heard similar tales since a friend of mine's cousin works for the CIA. Nothing special, but similar I suppose to what you described. I am puzzled though as to why it is that with every attack we see the government stiffling the intelligence gathering agencies.

Radhnoti
04-30-2006, 02:20 PM
I think that when the incompetence and in-fighting rears it's head everyone tries to avoid blame. Some of it involves "trade secrets" too...you don't want everyone, everywhere knowing how you're getting your intel. For example, if the administration knows they're getting reliable intel from a guy they don't want that information OUT. Since then, the guys you're getting the info ABOUT might know who was in the room when the good intel was last discussed.

chud
05-01-2006, 08:59 AM
IMO, the only conspiracy theory that is even POSSIBLE, with respect to maintaining secrecy, is the idea that the Bush admin "let it happen," the way some people think Roosevelt let Pearl Harbor happen.



That is the theory I am leaning toward; after all, somebody warned San Francisco mayor Willie Brown not to fly the day before 9/11, so someone knew something.

David Jamieson
05-01-2006, 11:09 AM
When there is a void in information, people have a tendency to fill that void with speculation and conjecture.

I personally think the 911 commision is wholly incomplete and leaves more questions than it answers. It doesn't even address a few key items.

I don't buy the pancake physics Idea and it is not widely supported by other physicists who seem to be more and more irritated by this and can show the improbability of it. No steel frame building has ever collapsed into it's own footprint from fire except for 1,2 and 7 ever in all history.

Not to mention the many many fire and police reports of explosions going off throughoutthe buildings as they ran and teh buildings fell.

There's plenty to be suspicious about, there are too many unanswered questions and there is not enough hardball questions being asked of the cloistered and shielded administration that cannot bear one iota of dissent or questioning without going off on a mudslinging tangent.

It's bad, I am thankful it's not my problem.

Kymus
05-01-2006, 06:50 PM
When there is a void in information, people have a tendency to fill that void with speculation and conjecture.

I agree. However I see this comming mostly from the folks that very hardly believe the government's theory.


I personally think the 911 commision is wholly incomplete and leaves more questions than it answers. It doesn't even address a few key items.

Like Bush's executive order W199IWF213589 that stiffled the intelligence gathering agencies from capturing atleast a few of the purported 9/11 hijackers


I don't buy the pancake physics Idea and it is not widely supported by other physicists who seem to be more and more irritated by this and can show the improbability of it. No steel frame building has ever collapsed into it's own footprint from fire except for 1,2 and 7 ever in all history.

I agree with you totally. However it's been my understanding that most physicists support this very poor official explaination. Do you have some articles that speak of the physicists that do not agree with this (aside from Steven E. Jones, whom I am familiar with)


Not to mention the many many fire and police reports of explosions going off throughoutthe buildings as they ran and teh buildings fell.

And eye wittnesses, and the FDNY Chief of Safety telling the media there were bombs in there, and bomb sniffing dogs being removed from the towers days before 9/11, and police moving some strange device(s) from the buildings. But from those that I have discussed this with that disagree with me, apparently people can't tell the difference between crashing floors and bombs.. I would think that it'd be obvious...


There's plenty to be suspicious about, there are too many unanswered questions and there is not enough hardball questions being asked of the cloistered and shielded administration that cannot bear one iota of dissent or questioning without going off on a mudslinging tangent.

Disinformation tactics, pure and simple; they can't answer any real questions. I don't agree with the official story of Pearl Harbour either, but atleast to FDR's credit, an investigation occured days (?) afterwards, not a year.

Merryprankster
05-01-2006, 08:14 PM
I don't buy the pancake physics Idea and it is not widely supported by other physicists who seem to be more and more irritated by this and can show the improbability of it. No steel frame building has ever collapsed into it's own footprint from fire except for 1,2 and 7 ever in all history.

No steel frame building in all of history was ever designed like the WTC either.

On that note, have you seen the discovery channel's reconstruction of the Kennedy assassination? They were able to duplicate the results of "the magic bullet," with a single round - something the critics said was impossible.

The Forensic Medicine guy they showed it to couldn't believe it was done with only one round either. He was surprised when they showed him.

My point is that truth is stranger than fiction and that nobody can escape the inherent wierdness of nature...things might be manmade, but they operate/exist in a world of natural laws that produce often surprising results.

Kymus, you'll forgive me if I don't share your gloomy vision of the coming police state. :P

firepalm
05-01-2006, 08:20 PM
Watch, with an open mind, the 'Loose Change' & 'Alex Jones' videos linked to in earlier posts in this thread. Then come back to this thread and try to say that something doesn't stink about the whole government edition of the 911 story.

George Bush is the leader of the Free World, he is it's downfall!

Merryprankster
05-01-2006, 08:29 PM
Watch, with an open mind, the 'Loose Change' & 'Alex Jones' videos linked to in earlier posts in this thread. Then come back to this thread and try to say that something doesn't stink about the whole government edition of the 911 story.

Or not.

The problem that I have with all of this stuff - on BOTH sides - is that people start throwing about phrases that load the question.

The implication of the above, for instance, is that if I watch the video with an open mind, but still disagree with it, then my mind clearly was not open :rolleyes:

firepalm
05-01-2006, 09:58 PM
the point I am trying to make is that if you watch these videos the evidence is so compelling that it would be hard for someone to come back and not say something is definitely wrong with the government's story about 911.

Look at all sides of the story, make your assessment based on all information and come to your own conclusions...

Once again having seen videos of the net such as the 'Loose Change' documentary (which by the way puts Michael Moore's Farhenheith 911 to shame) and 'Alex Jones' 911 Road to Tyranny', I can not simply buy the government's rendition of what happened. That and the fact that the American military with all it's might and technology can't find one little guy hiding out in a cave? I truly believe he will never be found cause he makes a great boogey man that allows your government to continue having excuses to tear away your rights & civil liberties!

Merryprankster
05-02-2006, 05:00 PM
the point I am trying to make is that if you watch these videos the evidence is so compelling that it would be hard for someone to come back and not say something is definitely wrong with the government's story about 911.

Except that I don't think it's compelling.


That and the fact that the American military with all it's might and technology can't find one little guy hiding out in a cave?

Our technology and might was designed to track and counter mass movements, not find one man who doesn't want to be found.

Crimes go unsolved for years, even when Interpol gets involved, manhunts continue for decades.



I truly believe he will never be found cause he makes a great boogey man that allows your government to continue having excuses to tear away your rights & civil liberties!

I'm unclear as to exactly what civil liberties have been torn away. The patriot act expanded some powers, but hardly tore away our liberties - or perhaps the immigrant march yesterday was a figment of my imagination.

Please do not cite such things as the NSA spying on Americans. That is a legal question which does not appear to be answered yet. The question of civil liberty violation is therefore moot.

Also, I might remind folks that "our government," changes directions every few years thanks to elections and the two term limit. There is also a heady, steady and vociferous debate on security vs liberty that rages right now.

Do you genuinely think that debate could rage in a country that was in danger of having its liberties torn away?

firepalm
05-02-2006, 11:00 PM
have you watched the 'Loose Change' video?

chud
05-03-2006, 12:34 PM
Phone call and video from 9/11...a bit hard to watch, but we should never forget:

http://www.flurl.com/item/911call_u_122654/

chud
05-03-2006, 12:45 PM
Video of tower collapsing and crowd reaction: http://youtube.com/watch?v=8Mz0_x7313I&search=south%20tower%20collapse

Kymus
05-03-2006, 04:15 PM
No steel frame building in all of history was ever designed like the WTC either.

You're right. It was over engineered and was designed to withstand multiple hits from a jet and not flinch.


On that note, have you seen the discovery channel's reconstruction of the Kennedy assassination? They were able to duplicate the results of "the magic bullet," with a single round - something the critics said was impossible.

I don't really buy it, but I'd still be interested in seeing that. I'll have to look it up.


My point is that truth is stranger than fiction

Indeed. I've noticed that a LOT throughout my life. A lie sounded so much more credible than the truth


Kymus, you'll forgive me if I don't share your gloomy vision of the coming police state. :P

Gloom or not, it's here and implementing. What went on at the RNC was a good example. Secret police, corporate sponsored surveilance blimps, and numerous innocent people (including those with a proper press pass) being scooped up and arrested only to be put into a detention-center-like facility. It can not be denied that it is here. It is just a question of what level and how long it will continue.

Kymus
05-03-2006, 04:22 PM
Or not.

The problem that I have with all of this stuff - on BOTH sides - is that people start throwing about phrases that load the question.

The implication of the above, for instance, is that if I watch the video with an open mind, but still disagree with it, then my mind clearly was not open :rolleyes:

Not exactly. It all depends, really. MSNBC quoted a study that showed how political partisanship affected the brain. Big surprise: When the kerry supporters heard Kerry make a contradictory statement, there was no activity in the problem solving aspect of their brain, but it was lit like an X-Mas tree when Bush did it. Ditto for the opposite side.

Essentially, there are those who view information because they want to know, and there are those that view it to prove one point or another. If you watch them, watch them because you want to learn something, not because you want to see "how crazy the claims are". I'm not trying to imply that that is what you would do, I am just stating this based upon my discussions with others.

For example: If I listen to Bush only to see what lies he's gonna make, I'm not gonna get much out of it. I think you'd agree it'd be a better approach to listen to what he has to say, then check it out. A big problem with politics is that most folks do what I described in the first sentence with their favorite politician they don't like and whammo: we get a nice left/right paradigm, amongst other things.

Merryprankster
05-03-2006, 05:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

have you watched the 'Loose Change' video?

Gee firepalm...

Have you read Inside Al Qaida?

Have you read Ghost Wars?

How much Bernard Lewis have you digested?

Gary Sick?

Khalid Rashidi?

How familiar are you with the Millenium Bombing Plot?

What can you tell me about German press investigations of AQ front companies in Europe?

John Louis Brugiere?

I'm sure if you read the material with an open mind....

Merryprankster
05-03-2006, 05:37 PM
Kymus, good point on processing information. I think what I'm trying to say is that the people who get it (ie processing with an open mind), don't need to be reminded and the statement will make little to no impact on the people that sorely need to be reminded. Secondly, I think we need to look at the intent of the writer. "If you look at this with an open mind," followed by "you cannot help but agree with me," or words to that effect, is not actually encouraging an open mind or an open discussion, IMO.


You're right. It was over engineered and was designed to withstand multiple hits from a jet and not flinch.

It did. In fact it withstood the impact of a jet much larger than those considered by its designers. They stood for over an hour after impact. If it hadn't withstood the impacts, the towers would have toppled. Which they didn't.

What it didn't withstand was the mass conflag. These are entirely separate properties, like toughness and hardness when discussing metals and other crystals.

BTW, and this is not a pot-shot at you or anybody else, I am largely unconcerned with what some physicists say about this. I am concerned with only a few groups of people - structural engineers, architects, and civil engineers who specialize in large buildings.

People tout the relatively few physicists who have decided the WTC couldn't fall the way it did.... but a physicist is NOT a structural engineer.

Who do you rely on to build a ship - a physicist or a Naval Architect? Who do you trust to diagnose and fix your engine troubles - a physicist or a mechanic?

While the fields are related, they are not the same. I would not allow an exercise physiologist to adjust my back, and I wouldn't let my chiropractor prescribe a fitness regimen.


Gloom or not, it's here and implementing. What went on at the RNC was a good example. Secret police, corporate sponsored surveilance blimps, and numerous innocent people (including those with a proper press pass) being scooped up and arrested only to be put into a detention-center-like facility. It can not be denied that it is here. It is just a question of what level and how long it will continue.

I disagree. For each incident you cite of perceived abuse of power, I can cite clearly protected rights that the government and the law respect, and examples of the same in action. Where you see a police state, I see nothing more than the constant tension between collective security and individual liberties, that the United States has dealt with since its inception. People said the same thing about Lincoln in the Civil War, and yet, here we are.

Design Sifu
05-03-2006, 06:11 PM
I occasionally hear of BUILDING 7 and it's colapse in reference to the Inside Job discourse. What's the story with how that building fell?

bustr
05-03-2006, 09:24 PM
I occasionally hear of BUILDING 7 and it's colapse in reference to the Inside Job discourse. What's the story with how that building fell?

Larry Silverstein decided to "pull" it. He said this on a national newscast. "Pull" means to implode in demolition terminology. Supposedly it was damaged beyond repair by a few small fires started by falling debris. Curiously there were other buildings much closer to the twin towers that suffered no damage. Also the WTC was apparently facing an expensive EPA mandated renovation. Silverstein saved a few million by allowing it to be destroyed and all it cost was a few hundred thousand commoners' (counting war casualties) lives. Watch the video. It explains things better than I can.


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260059923762628848&q=%22loose+change%22

SifuAbel
05-04-2006, 02:48 PM
Interesting tid bit about the missing 160 bil in gold .

chud
05-05-2006, 12:06 PM
Secret police, corporate sponsored surveilance blimps, and numerous innocent people (including those with a proper press pass) being scooped up and arrested only to be put into a detention-center-like facility. It can not be denied that it is here.

"Before I came here I saw the people oppressed by tyrannical rule. If they were able to learn kung fu, they could defend themselves and combat enemies."
(from the movie 'Shaolin Masterkiller')

dwid
05-05-2006, 12:19 PM
"Before I came here I saw the people oppressed by tyrannical rule. If they were able to learn kung fu, they could defend themselves and combat enemies."
(from the movie 'Shaolin Masterkiller')

Yeah, that worked really well for the Righteous Harmony Society during the Boxer Rebellion against 19th century weaponry. I'm sure it would work even better in the 21st century. :rolleyes:

David Jamieson
05-05-2006, 01:58 PM
worked pretty good for the colonists in 1776 though. :p

dwid
05-06-2006, 04:24 AM
Yeah, I had totally forgotten the part in American history when we learned about George Washington's iron body qi gong and the way the Green Mountain Boys used monkey kung fu to take the fight to the British.

GLW
05-06-2006, 07:53 AM
Actually, unless they did a blind study monitoring people TUNING things out or not really paying attention - that type of thing, the study about information processing proves very little.

There is this little thing called a null hypothesis - meaning no inference can be drawn. There is also this little thing called the experimental hypothesis...and that can be convoluted (in the technical sense of the word) with another true root cause or confounding variable.

All tech aside on the psych research...

What it CAN boil down to is that if someone has already made up their mind about someone (such as being a Bush supporter or a Kerry supporter), when the side they AGREE with comes on, they might not really process the information. The reasoning might go something like "What's the point, I already agree with X..." But when the opposing side comes on, they might listen for reasons to support their disagreement, derision, ammunition for later rebutal, etc...

Bottom line, such a simple approach to a psych research area is only as good as the person analyzing the data...And THAT means looking for more than one possible explanation for future evaluation.

dwid
05-06-2006, 01:24 PM
Actually, there's an enormous amount of social psych research studying information processing, some of which is very well designed as far as experimental controls and what not. The stuff Merryprankster referred to on MSN was probably a summary or simplification of this research like I often see reported on CNN and such. And of what I know of the research, it strongly suggests that people pay a great deal more attention in processing information related to an issue that comes from a source they disagree with than that which comes from a source they agree with.

I agree with you about reading this kind of thing with a critical eye. I worked as a researcher in social psych for several years, and it's amazing some of the sh!t that gets extrapolated from studies that are so controlled as to be effectively removed from having any applicable meaning in reality.

GLW
05-06-2006, 03:34 PM
I would also caution that you do not get your research info from CNN or Fox...

The idea that you would listen more critically to that which you disagree with...well...big duh. People would not listen very closely to something that they were in agreement with...which explains the glassy stare of the dittoheads on Rush Limbaugh (unless they, too, are using Oxycontin)

It might be more interesting to see what the results are with things where the person has formed no opinion and is motivated or interested vs. no opinion and no interest...and then compare to the previous items....

But, the stuff that gets published...out and out amazing how bad some of it is.

The fact that sociology and psychology research lives and dies by statistics ad method.....and virtually none of the people doing the research are knoweldgeable enough in the math of statistical analysis to even hold their own with an undergrad math/stats major is appalling. Hence - ANOVA is used for everything....

MasterKiller
05-06-2006, 05:55 PM
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7750532340306101329&q=larry+silverstein

Shorter version of Silverstein admitting that Building 7 was intentionally pulled.

dwid
05-06-2006, 07:01 PM
I would also caution that you do not get your research info from CNN or Fox...

The idea that you would listen more critically to that which you disagree with...well...big duh. People would not listen very closely to something that they were in agreement with...which explains the glassy stare of the dittoheads on Rush Limbaugh (unless they, too, are using Oxycontin)....

It's actually that people are more attentive to detail in information from a source that they are likely to disagree with based on their beliefs, which is a little different than being critical of what you disagree with. Maybe it's a little bit cognitive dissonance stuff, but really, its all about cognitive efficiency. You can't give your complete attention to everything, so unless you intentionally decide to process material from a "trusted source," you will likely only process it peripherally.


The fact that sociology and psychology research lives and dies by statistics ad method.....and virtually none of the people doing the research are knoweldgeable enough in the math of statistical analysis to even hold their own with an undergrad math/stats major is appalling. Hence - ANOVA is used for everything....

I would say this is simply untrue, or at least an overgeneralization. First off, I can't speak for sociology, though my limited experience in that arena suggests a lack of statistical sophistication - it should be pointed out that most sociologists don't believe in controlled experiments, so if all you do is naturalistic stuff, your hands are pretty much tied from a statistical standpoint anyway.

However, the academic psychologists I've worked with in Social Psych and Clinical Psych at OSU have had some of the highest sophistication in research methodology and statistical knowledge of any of the professionals I've worked with. Further, I would put the level of statistical analyses used in the top psych journals up against the stats used in many medical journals.

True, there are social scientists that have a poor understanding of stats and research methods, but I don't think that's really at the heart of the problem with theory in social science. The main problem is people making huge leaps of logic from what the analyses show to what the underlying truth is. On that, it seems, we likely agree.

dwid
05-06-2006, 07:13 PM
It might be more interesting to see what the results are with things where the person has formed no opinion and is motivated or interested vs. no opinion and no interest...and then compare to the previous items....

I think you can probably find research studying exactly this if you have access to psychinfo or a similar database. You'd be surprised at just how much work has been done on information processing, cognitive biases, judgment, etc...

It's one of those areas of research with high crossover value for studying many areas of psych. For example, cognitive biases are a key piece to many of the more common forms of psych pathology like depression and anxiety disorders, which is admittedly a lot more interesting to me than the pure social psych stuff - which is why I'm a nurse now instead of a researcher in social psych.

fa_jing
05-06-2006, 08:36 PM
I just watched "Loose Change." It made some interesting points but also made some very loose connections. It suggested multiple competing theories that in some cases were mutually exclusive, while trying to tie it all together flimsily. I can just see the predisposed nodding in agreement at everything there blindly. Yet, it was worth watching and in the net had an impact on me. I personally think incompetence was the biggest factor behind 9-11, while agreeing that secretiveness and conspiracy exists in the government. Yet, I also think that this same incompetence prevents the sort of conspiracy suggested in terms of involving everyone from C. Rice to Marvin Bush to everyone else. It's like the makers of the film were lobbing every possible bomb over the fence blindly at the target, but the number of bombs made it likely that they got a hit somewhere.

Mr Punch
05-06-2006, 08:58 PM
This is not a dig at Kymus or anybody in particular, but there are a couple of things here.

9/11 was indeed an inside job. It was Bush's reichstag fire to bring about Martial Law. I've studdied this issue for nearly two years. I've looked at litterally hundreds of different news articles, and have seen probably over a dozen doccumentaries on the subject (excluding Michael Moore's very pathetic film). But irregardless of this, people just love to turn off their brains on turn on the disinfo to try to discredit this. Don't listen to me, or to anyone. Research the issue for yourself and learn the facts. The government's conspiracy theory doesn't hold up (not to mention that many details are either impropable or impossible).

http://www.infowars.com
http://www.prisonplanet.com

edit: before anyone starts on the usual bullsh!t claim disinfo wagon, why don't I make a few things clear:

1) I'm not a liberal
2) No I don't like Clinton
3) No it wasn't ok when Clinton did it, and it's not okay now
4) John Kerry is a douche bag
5) I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I can doccument everything I claim. When I delve into theories and assumptions, I readily admit to it
6) Calling me names doesn't strengthen your argument in the least
7) I'm not paranoid
8) I'm not a Democrat and I don't support the Democratic Party
9) I've spent countless hours researching this. If you tell me I'm "wrong", I will be expecting a.

on your marks, get set, flame!You start with references to the disinfo wagon and then 1-8 above are as irrelevant as any other more malicious disinfo. Your argument is what counts, and I notice in point 9 you tell us of the countless hours you’ve spent researching this but you don’t show us any research, and yet you expect “detailed analysis complete with sources” if anyone opposes you. As I said, I’m not attacking you, but I would like to objectively point out that you are already operating on considerable double-standards. Where’s your “detailed analysis complete with sources”? Just telling us how much ‘research’ you’ve done doesn’t count.

I understand: I’m not a liberal either, but countless times on this board and others people without enough critical faculty to hold a conversation about something they don’t agree with will shoot me down as a liberal (I’m old-fashioned: I don’t even see what’s wrong with being a liberal, despite not being one). But it doesn’t make sense.


: Former Helmut Schmidt cabinet member, 25-year German Parliamentarian and global intelligence expert Andreas Von Bülow says that the 9/11 attack was run by the highest levels of the US intelligence apparatus using WTC Building 7 as a command bunker which was later demolished in order to destroy the crime scene.
Speaking to The Alex Jones Show on the GCN Radio Network, Von Bülow said that "the official story is so wrong, it must be an inside job."

If you spent some time on the site, you'd see that they quote numerous mainstream, international, and independant media. Their 9/11 archive contains about 600 of these. And if you spent a few seconds on that site you would see that their first article (which YOU later quote) is bullsh!t. If they have such compelling evidence from their 600 mainstream, international and independent media, why do they resort to such ‘Sunday Sport’ kind of ‘reportage’ for their main page?

Let’s look at this article critically, since you seem to give it some credence. The first sentence establishing his credentials lists two largely irrelevant pieces of information:

1) he had 25 years as a German parliamentarian and was in Helmut Schmidt’s cabinet.

So what? Parliamentarians of long standing and cabinet ministers are often caught talking complete nonsense. Especially when they try to take on something outside their brief. Even skiving politicians are very busy reading reports and briefs about their own field. And what makes you think that a member of the just post-Cold-War German parliament would have access to the kind of information he would need to make such a definitive statement about things that happened in the US which anyway are highly classified?

2) he’s a ‘global intelligence expert’.

Again, so what!? First you’re saying you don’t trust the US’s global intel experts, then you’re saying that this German one is right? Why? Because he doesn’t have anything to gain from lying or selling his story? … think again. Furthermore, again in what part of global intel is he an expert? How much classified info does he have from his (I’m sure) close friends in the 17 (25) US intel services? The benchmark for experts is renowned for being slack. Anyone who works in a university gets awarded expert status half the time from Joe Public.

His claim about Building 7 is in no way substantiated, and let’s be honest is pretty d@mn stupid: why on earth in this remote age would they have a command centre on the same site?

The quote ‘the official story is so wrong it must have been an inside job’ is in itself nonsense.


…We have litterally 2 dozen (25 in total I believe) intelligence gathering agencies, and every time an attack like this happens, it's blamed on incompetence. Do you find this as implausable as I do? I know Andreas Von Buelow (see original link for more information about this intelligence expert) does. I'm not trying to say that because it's implausable that means I'm right. I'm just trying some critical thinking I guess.Here your logic seems faulty. Because there are so many intel agencies, the chances of failures are more slight?

Divide and rule. Divide and conquer. So well known I can’t even remember who said them first. One of the reasons there are so many intel agencies is to prevent any one of them gaining too much power. Is this conspiracy? Do members of the admin sit down and work out ways of dividing the agencies to lessen their power? Of course not! It’s a natural law, it’s common sense, it’s human nature. On the odd occasion that any kind of agency is joined with another it’s for the same purpose: to weaken it. Look at FEMA which was always causing trouble asking for preventative budget allocations for poorer areas of the country, which was then merged with the Dept of Homeland Security so they could shut the f up!

The more security agencies there are the more chances of foul-ups there will be. It’s the incompetence of bureaucracy.


I have a friend that started out in one of the military branches intel and now works for another of the 3 letter intel agencies…"You wouldn't believe the stuff we stop, a tip to this government...a call to this warlord we're backing, even teams when we have to…For every one thing the public hears about, we've run 100 operations."… He feels it's very possible that incompetence has led to the majority of U.S. intel failures.And here’s Radh, since Kymus you like to talk of selective understanding. For every one operation you hear of there have been a 100 run. Not so surprising. How many successes? Given that they’ll be much better hidden, we could possibly assume another hundred were bungled…?! I’m joking for effect, but we can all play these bureaucracy number crunching games. And seriously, of the ‘successes’ can we safely say that although this one was a success, the long term goals were achieved, or the knock-on effects were accurately predicted? Of course not. You can’t do that with simple science like GMO release, or a laudable forestry project in Bangladesh that causes drought and dessication in India, so when you’re dealing with the very unscientific people… the chances are neglible. Yet you’re talking about such a conspiracy to include the govt, silencing 20-odd intel agencies and the military?

Don’t get me wrong Kymus, I’m not picking on you and I think what you’re doing is commendable in some ways. I don’t know what happened on 9/11 and I think it is important… but what exactly have you achieved? If you have this kind of research, to whom have you given it? When can we read your book? How many letters have you written to your govt, to your senator…?

Chud here said rightly: we should never forget.

But what should we remember? Should we remember Rwanda in the early 90s, when my friends and I, radical activists of some shade or another, were campaigning against the CJA in the UK (a law which restricted our civil liberties, and most relevantly to us, the right to party) where the whole of the civilized world allowed a million or so people to be butchered through bureaucracy and petty politics and the remnants of a meddling colonial system? Should we remember Hiroshima, remember that the accepted wisdom is that that US govt decided to drop the bomb to save American and Japanese lives, but when the original letters between the US and UK Secretaries of State, war offices and leaders are on display in Hiroshima Peace Museum (not even translated into Japanese!) openly stating that the bombs were to be dropped as an experiment to see the effect on a certain size of civilian population centre and to appease the US public who were wondering where their months of self-sacrifice had gone with a spectacular show, and stating how they would tell the people that they had decided to drop the bombs to save American and Japanese lives…?!

This thread is not about Hiroshima or Rwanda (before anyone brings up Nanking or Darfur or the failures of the UN). Those examples are little throwaway examples of how we collectively remember some things and not others, of how we always let the govts off the hook, and of how evil is soooo much more banal than these conspiracies (and by evil I don’t mean an entity, and I don’t just mean doing something ‘bad’, but I mean the absence of preventing these things for purely altruistic motives).

...cont

Mr Punch
05-06-2006, 08:59 PM
So, if you’ve really been researching 9/11 so competently and you can hold up your results so confidently, **** you man, show somebody useful: do something to prevent the system from doing this again! Join the govt! Write a book!

Otherwise, everything you are so enthusiastic about is more banal chitchat, and nothing more. Already 9/11 is popular mythology: the useful discourse on it gets less and less! The 9/11 commission was defanged and largely ignored.

The biggest failure of 9/11 was this: Bush (and Blair) got in again. Bush with the whole Pappy Bush, Rumsveld, Cheney self-serving, corporate haves-and-have-mores deal, the whole Halliburton, Blackwater, KBR, Dyncorp deal who supplied and trained Bin-Laden and his al-Qaeda in the 80s, Hussein and his Republican Guard in the 70s etc etc, the whole ‘civilian’ (corporate) command is still there!

Why are people still insisting on rabbiting on about oil monopolization when there are so many obvious corporate interests in this whole admin? Why is anybody still wasting time with these conspiracies, when the truth is in front of your noses!? Stop chasing phantoms!

The 9/11 terrorism was horrific. It was an unpardonable act by extremist terrorists. If you want to believe your own admin had some involvement be my guest: I have no idea. BUT the aftermath: the whole War on Terror gag – this is still continuing, and this is directly and obviously attributable to the admin of the US with its’ members corporate connections in the region going back 30 years and who should be held accountable.

The War on Terror was not for WMDs. It was not for the Iraqi people, or democracy, or the American people’s future safety or standard of living. It was not for the ousting of Hussein. It was not to liberate the oil supplies. It is for big, blatant business.

Just a couple of cents. The rest is going to more useful ends.

GLW
05-06-2006, 09:17 PM
I would have to disagree with you on the level of math knowledge....

First, how many semester hours of mathematics are required for an undergrad degree in psych?

If you are a psych major and have had calculus, you are in the minority.

Grad school...well your major area of study is NOT statistics or the math behind it.

For an undergrad degree, there are typically 2 classes - read that as 6 semester hours - of research design. The first is basically cookbook. The second is breeze if you have done anything remotely technical...ever.

Then in grad school, you get maybe two more unless you specialize in psychometrics.

A typical engineer spends a full semester on probability and statistics AFTER Cal1, 2,3, and Differential Equations.

Design of experimental method...unless you are talking schools like Stanford, sorry, I don't buy it - and many of the ggrad programs split their time with SOME level of research (after all, you DO have to get your thesis or dissertation done) and then practice. There is then no guarantee that the person doing the research really did much in the methodology and statistics area.

About the only real saving grace is that the good ones DO actually seek out staff in the math departments to verify their methods at some point.

Having gone through both an engineering and a psych degree program, I can tell you that the level required in one is so much lower - well, I maintained a good GPA in undergrad and grad school and studied 1 to 2 days a week in the psych area....not anywhere possible in engineering....or math.

dwid
05-07-2006, 05:38 AM
GLW, I think the core of our misunderstanding comes from perhaps an overgeneral look at the discipline of psychology. Most of my exposure to psych research was working with social psychology at Ohio State, one of the top social psych programs in the country. Social psychology is an entirely research-based field, there is no applied component that grad students would have to focus on to take time away from research. The closest thing to applied work in social psych is doing research for the private sector. And while I don't doubt that engineers learn more math than social psychologists, I fail to see the relevance. The nature of stats in social science research is probabalistic. This is why I see the correlation between the kind of stats used in medical research and the kind of stats used in good psych research as highly suggestive of psych research being on the right track in terms of analyses and methods.

GLW
05-07-2006, 12:05 PM
The relevance is that there are in reality only a few psych departments and sources of research that are worth a ****.

When you sit down with a tenured psych professor that is published a lot...and they can't tell you WHY they used a particular statistical method over another, you begin to see this as a problem.

As you stated, your exposure is ONE program that has a good rep. Mine is with others that have good reps but not, perhaps, deserved.

So... the relevance:

One: Research is published willy nilly and you really have to get to the methods to analyze what was done and how well it was done...and wha tthe numbers may mean.

Two: CNN and other sources that are cited for such things are nowhere close to being able to analyze the data or results. They rarely look at the other sources or the conflicting research.

Three: While there ARE some psych and soc. departments that know their stuff in regards to research, there are just as many that don't. They spend more time worrying about human subjects permissions than the design of their research. And they put out a lot of quoted material too.

Four: if you are going to depend upon statistics to support what you do, you should be an expert in them...you should be able to walk into a grad level statistics class and teach it....and from an applied perspective as well. This is rarely the case.

And so...the bottom line, folks can quote cute little research things and talk about cognitive dissonance but most either don't know what is going on or how to analyze this....

And that does NOT apply to you...it is a general statement aimed at telling people to take care in what they believe....as in ALWAYS question authority.

dwid
05-07-2006, 12:23 PM
I agree with all your points regarding being a critical consumer of research.

I would even go as far as to say that by your standards, I'm probably not very well-versed in stats.

On the other hand, being a good consumer of research does not require advanced statistical knowledge, just enough so you can interpret what you're looking at. Even by that standard, however, I would agree that too few people who depend on research are skilled consumers of it.

In a good example of the kind of thing you are talking about, there have been tons of studies supporting the idea that birth order (like 1st born versus 6th born or whatever) has an impact on achievement, success, etc... A friend of mine from Ohio State was on the Today Show this last week briefly talking about research he recently published that totally debunked this established theory. It turns out that much of the work used to prove the theory initially included a mix of families with anywhere from 1 child to many children. The problem with this, of course, is that families with lots of kids are often families with lower SES and less educated parents, and start having children at a much younger age, while families with one or two kids are more likely to include better educated and higher SES parents etc... Really just one factor they looked at, but illustrates how theory that is taken for granted can be based on a totally flawed premise.

GLW
05-07-2006, 02:22 PM
Bingo....

That is exactly the type of thing I am referring to.

The folks doing the reporting need to know enough about the area to ask the question...and how to find an expert that really is an expert.

Those of us reading about the stuff should be skeptical enough to say show me the results and how...and then how to read to find who they verified with...

And then those producing the research (the ones I was referring to as living and dying by their statistics) really need to be experts in their area AND statistical methods.

Unfortunately, much of this is never the case...leading to things like you just cited...a established "factoid" that never really was.

Crushing Fist
05-07-2006, 09:14 PM
It did. In fact it withstood the impact of a jet much larger than those considered by its designers. They stood for over an hour after impact. If it hadn't withstood the impacts, the towers would have toppled. Which they didn't.

What it didn't withstand was the mass conflag. These are entirely separate properties, like toughness and hardness when discussing metals and other crystals.

BTW, and this is not a pot-shot at you or anybody else, I am largely unconcerned with what some physicists say about this. I am concerned with only a few groups of people - structural engineers, architects, and civil engineers who specialize in large buildings.

People tout the relatively few physicists who have decided the WTC couldn't fall the way it did.... but a physicist is NOT a structural engineer.

Who do you rely on to build a ship - a physicist or a Naval Architect? Who do you trust to diagnose and fix your engine troubles - a physicist or a mechanic?

While the fields are related, they are not the same. I would not allow an exercise physiologist to adjust my back, and I wouldn't let my chiropractor prescribe a fitness regimen.



This is an interesting article IMO...

http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html


but then this guy isn't a structural engineer, so I'm sure you'll be largely unconcerned with it...


here some previews:



A Mechanical Engineering professor suggested that I review a paper by Zedenek P. Bazant and Yong Zhou, which I did. Quoting:

The 110-story towers of the World Trade Center were designed to withstand as a whole the forces caused by a horizontal impact of a large commercial aircraft. So why did a total collapse occur? (Bazant and Zhou, 2002, p. 2.)



Correct – the WTC Towers were designed to withstand forces caused by large commercial aircraft – we can agree on that. MIT’s Thomas Eagar also concurs “because the number of columns lost on the initial impact was not large and the loads were shifted to remaining columns in this highly redundant structure” (Eagar and Musso, 2001).



We continue with Bazant & Zhou:

The conflagration, caused by the aircraft fuel spilled into the structure, causes the steel of the columns to be exposed to sustained temperatures apparently exceeding 800oC… (Bazant and Zhou, 2002, p. 2.)



But here we note from the recent NIST report that: “The initial jet fuel fires themselves lasted at most a few minutes” and office material fires would burn out within about 20 minutes in a given location. (NIST, 2005; p. 179, emphasis added.) Certainly jet fuel burning was not enough to raise steel to sustained temperatures above 800oC. But we continue:



Once more than half of the columns in the critical floor.. suffer buckling (stage 3), the weight of the upper part of the structure above this floor can no longer be supported, and so the upper part starts falling down onto the lower part below…”(Bazant and Zhou, 2002, p. 2.)



Bazant & Zhou do not explain how “more than half of the columns in the critical floor [can] suffer buckling” at the same time to precipitate the complete and nearly symmetrical collapse observed. There were 47 huge steel core columns in each Tower, and 24 such support columns in WTC 7 (NIST 2005; NISTb, 2005).


and



Kevin Ryan, the whistleblower from Underwriters Laboratories, did his own brief statistical analysis in a recent letter regarding the NIST report, arguing that probabilities of collapse-initiation needed to be calculated (Ryan, 2005). NIST nowhere provides such a likelihood analysis for their non-explosive collapse model. Ryan’s estimate is that the probability that fires and damage (the “official theory”) could cause the Towers complete collapse is less than one in a trillion, and the probability is much less still when the complete collapse of WTC7 is included



and



I presented my objections to the “official” theory at a seminar at BYU on September 22, 2005, to about sixty people. I also showed evidence and scientific arguments for the controlled demolition theory. In attendance were faculty from Physics, Mechanical Engineering, Civil Engineering, Electrical Engineering, Psychology, Geology, and Mathematics – and perhaps other departments as I did not recognize all of the people present. A local university and college were represented (BYU and Utah Valley State College).



The discussion was vigorous and lasted nearly two hours. It ended only when a university class needed the room. After presenting the material summarized here, including actually looking at and discussing the collapses of WTC 7 and the Towers, only one attendee disagreed (by hand-vote) that further investigation of the WTC collapses was called for. The next day, the dissenting professor said he had further thought about it and now agreed that more investigation was needed.





so how about it?


if the steel was merely weakened enough to casue the collapse then where did all the molten metal come from?

or the unsual squibs?

or the....


oh nevermind

:)

SimonM
05-07-2006, 09:37 PM
The biggest failure of 9/11 was this: Bush (and Blair) got in again. Bush with the whole Pappy Bush, Rumsveld, Cheney self-serving, corporate haves-and-have-mores deal, the whole Halliburton, Blackwater, KBR, Dyncorp deal who supplied and trained Bin-Laden and his al-Qaeda in the 80s, Hussein and his Republican Guard in the 70s etc etc, the whole ‘civilian’ (corporate) command is still there!

Why are people still insisting on rabbiting on about oil monopolization when there are so many obvious corporate interests in this whole admin? Why is anybody still wasting time with these conspiracies, when the truth is in front of your noses!? Stop chasing phantoms!

The 9/11 terrorism was horrific. It was an unpardonable act by extremist terrorists. If you want to believe your own admin had some involvement be my guest: I have no idea. BUT the aftermath: the whole War on Terror gag – this is still continuing, and this is directly and obviously attributable to the admin of the US with its’ members corporate connections in the region going back 30 years and who should be held accountable.

The War on Terror was not for WMDs. It was not for the Iraqi people, or democracy, or the American people’s future safety or standard of living. It was not for the ousting of Hussein. It was not to liberate the oil supplies. It is for big, blatant business.


AMEN! Right on Mat!

And for the record, since everyone is disavowing being a "Liberal". I am also not a Liberal. I'm a card-carrying member of the NDP. :p

tug
05-07-2006, 09:38 PM
So, if you’ve really been researching 9/11 so competently and you can hold up your results so confidently, **** you man, show somebody useful: do something to prevent the system from doing this again! Join the govt! Write a book!

Otherwise, everything you are so enthusiastic about is more banal chitchat, and nothing more. Already 9/11 is popular mythology: the useful discourse on it gets less and less! The 9/11 commission was defanged and largely ignored.

The biggest failure of 9/11 was this: Bush (and Blair) got in again. Bush with the whole Pappy Bush, Rumsveld, Cheney self-serving, corporate haves-and-have-mores deal, the whole Halliburton, Blackwater, KBR, Dyncorp deal who supplied and trained Bin-Laden and his al-Qaeda in the 80s, Hussein and his Republican Guard in the 70s etc etc, the whole ‘civilian’ (corporate) command is still there!

Why are people still insisting on rabbiting on about oil monopolization when there are so many obvious corporate interests in this whole admin? Why is anybody still wasting time with these conspiracies, when the truth is in front of your noses!? Stop chasing phantoms!

The 9/11 terrorism was horrific. It was an unpardonable act by extremist terrorists. If you want to believe your own admin had some involvement be my guest: I have no idea. BUT the aftermath: the whole War on Terror gag – this is still continuing, and this is directly and obviously attributable to the admin of the US with its’ members corporate connections in the region going back 30 years and who should be held accountable.

The War on Terror was not for WMDs. It was not for the Iraqi people, or democracy, or the American people’s future safety or standard of living. It was not for the ousting of Hussein. It was not to liberate the oil supplies. It is for big, blatant business.

Just a couple of cents. The rest is going to more useful ends.

Mat, thank you so much. You didn't exactly speak my mind, but the ultimate intention is the same.

I was there then, I am here now. Basically, my bottom line is, fine, have your conspiracy theories, back them up with suspicious factual information, but please - to those who live on the other beach, please let me be. From the beginning, there never was, and there is not, room for false hope anymore.

TuG.

Merryprankster
05-08-2006, 09:04 AM
Missing the point, re "molten metal" Crushing Fist.

My point was that people who don't know what they are talking about often cite the MELTING tempurature of steel. I'm interested in what causes it to soften, not MELT. We use an annealing flame to soften steel, and that's a low temp, carburizing flame. You can take a hard steel bar, anneal it, and then bend it with your bare hands without much effort.

I have no doubt there was some molten metal at the scene. Not everything in that building was structural steel. There were pipes, tubing, aluminum furniture, refrigerators, a giant horkin aluminum fuselaged airplane, etc, all of which have much lower melting temps.

Secondly, if you start trotting that out as an argument, you negate the controlled demolition argument.

High explosives do not start mass conflags. In fact, they usually put them out. The pressure wave from the explosion makes it hard for a fire to start. This is why incendiary bombs are way different than, say, bunker busters.

H.E. wouldn't cause much in the way of molten metal. It would cause it to fracture (ie, buckle and rip apart/shatter) along crystalline structure weaknesses.

Crushing Fist
05-08-2006, 09:28 AM
well....

I was kinda hoping you might read the article

I know its long but I think its well written and its whole point is in support of controlled demo...

I'm not well informed enough on any of the related subjects to actually argue any points, however this guy addresses the points you just made.

Aluminum doesn't put out enough light to be seen glowing in daylight, it stays a silvery reflective color when melted

therefore the metal shown glowing red/orange/yellow hot must have been steel or iron... he has some interesting color/temperature of metal charts etc.

it seems to me that YOU are missing the point here... you are talking about softened steel when there was molten pools of the stuff undeniably present.


his supposition involves the structural steel columns being cut with themite or thermate which directly produces molten iron as a result of its reaction and would also melt steel.


he makes lots of good points

he also references someone from the companhy that certified the steel in the WTC who seems to think it preposterous that a diffuse flame such as occurred could have heated the steel enough to cause the builing to collapse, and tests showing that it wouldn't... even if all the fireproofing was gone.



all I'm saying is this guy may be talking your language and it might be worth your time to skim through it a bit.


there is another point about the speed of the collapse which is rather interesting, at least to me, a layperson.

David Jamieson
05-08-2006, 09:32 AM
6 months later and pools of molten metal as well as white hot girders being pulled weeks after the event.

not to mention stright cuts on girders with molten metal at the cuts (typical of cordite a material used in demolition)

softening is fine and all, but soften doesn't explain clean cuts to the girders with now hardened molten sludge all around teh girder where the cuts were made.

so, the thing is, that in general, there is a lot of information being withheld about what really happened.

so long as the homeland security departemnt and the fbi withold the video evidence they have from the gas station, from the hotels and from other vantage points that show what happens,then people are going to speculate.

they know they've been lied to by their government, like everyone else. Most of us want to know the extent of the lie and how far down the rabbit hole we have to go to route out the real culprits.

apparently we have to go all the way. But there will likely be some horrific distraction to head that off at the pass if it gets to hot and starts to melt the facade taht's been put up in support of the events that took place after 911, such as the flase wmd war, the failure to find bin Laden, the continued good relations between the WH admin and the Saudis and so on and so on and so on.

Imagine of the intermanetaweb was around when JKF was killed! Yowsa, people would be talking and talking and forever revisiting those points that no one wants to hear about when they live in their lalalalalalalalalala I'm safe world.

For me, the government is disconnected severly from teh will of the people as is made obvious by "the decider" but not only in teh USA, governments all over the world are disconnecting from tehir populaces and doing whatever it is they feel tehy need to do in our best interests. Even if it means false flag operations, bogus wars, deaths of many, starvation, corrupion adn all the other badd ass sh1t that is going on perpetually.

Time for a revolution...if only people weren't locked up in golden handcuffs and being fed misinfo daily as well as having full bellies and empty heads.

these are classical moves ripped from the pages of Heinousness of all time. lol

again Im happy it's not really spilling into where I live. I don't have to deal with being frowned at when I travel because I'm not from teh States.

I don't have to deal with being attacked in other countries because I'm american.

I don't have to deal with nightly propoganda that skews the truth.

My internet service doesn't block me from seeing controversial sites.

ahhh, being Canadian rocks! Too bad for you American Cousins, your house is a mess 5 years after the fact ...still! You ever gonna get that sorted? You ever gonna hold someone other than myths and ghosts accountable? Anybody get in trouble over that or is W still handing out medals for incompetence?

can't see i guess, don't want to see, it's a classic case of evasion and not wanting to deal with the truth I guess.

You can't seriously be satisfied with the thin explanations and easily counterable official explanations that are given can you?

You gotta remember, just because someone says it, doesn't mean it's true, that applies to alex jones and George Bush both.

Merryprankster
05-08-2006, 10:02 AM
I read most of it.

No offense, but the reason it's so long is because it's mostly a political polemic. The last third of it is basically an anti-government diatribe. Which is fine.

I also don't understand why he talked about stuff staying hot for months. I would expect this. It's perfectly normal fire behavior. You can bury a large wood fire in sand for weeks and it can still be quite hot when you come back - you can even bring it back up to flaming. It looks to me like an effort to create something fishy where none exists.

I find some of it interesting - the discussion of "squibs," for instance, but there is nothing conclusive about his hypothesis at all. There are also sets of alternative explanations, which he does NOT ADDRESS. He glosses over it. He never tells us why it couldn't happen that way, only that he thinks it was thermite. I also find it amusing that they discount one set of computer models saying they are inaccurate, but then tout their own. Well, if doubt is an inherent limitation of computer models, perhaps we should be cautious in accepting any of them without knowing what the underlying assumptions were.

I should, perhaps be more clear on my position: I'm not suggesting that we don't need more investigation. We do. However, the basic premise that fire brought down the WTC is quite plausible, and again, based on my admittedly limited experience with both fire fighting and metals, reasonably possible. Spots in even normal house fires can slag metal. I'm sure the WTC was worse.

Personally, I think the more this is modeled and studied, the more it will tend to support the general account of the "official" version. The thing people forget is that these studies aren't done by co-opted wierdos. They're run by contractors and civilian work-a-day employees. These people, the ones who actually crunch the data and run the numbers and build the simulations, probably total around a hundred or so, would be my guess.

We're talking people who probably make maybe high five-figures on the professional end.

Anybody who came out and said "I worked on this project, the results are falsified, here's my proof," would be instant front page news, and basically immune from government pressure at that point.

Why would they lie to protect something like that? What incentive do they have? More importantly, how does the government keep a lid on all of them? These aren't "brainwashed" military guys...they aren't ultrapatriotic....they are civil servants and contractors whose political opinions and concepts span the gammut.

The biggest problem I have is that the size of the conspiracy would have to be truly enormous given the number of people that would have to be co-opted and silenced and repressed. Too many people have their fingers in the pie for that to work.



Time for a revolution...if only people weren't locked up in golden handcuffs and being fed misinfo daily as well as having full bellies and empty heads.

The alternative is that you are wrong, that the world is working reasonably well, and other people have a different opinion than yours.

JUST BECAUSE THEY DON'T AGREE WITH YOU DOESN'T MAKE THEM STUPID OR BLIND.

Jesus.