Fights in Hong Kong between WC and CLF

[Not a Dancer]

I'm looking for articles, stories, anything about the wing chun fights with choy li fut. Does anyone have anything? Anything will be very very helpful. (I posted this on the kung fu section but no responds so hopefully I'll get some here)

I'm not trying to p!ss anyone off, I'm just interested in the stories. Thanks.

[Yuen]

What do you mean?

[Daelomin]

He means that he is looking for articles, stories, anything about fights between choy le fut and wing chun

[chen zhen]

i heard yip man had a sparring match with a choy lee fut guy while he was young. beated the crap out him. correct me if i'm wrong?n

[iron_silk]

...who sparred with a CLF guy?

[Fu-Pow]

Check out Vince Lacey's website. He's got a lot of stuff on that feud. Apparently, he was one of the people that started it. Search Google for Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut or Vince Lacey.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[bean curd]

before this goes any further and things start coming in that arn't correct or half truths, let me point out the following briefly.

the situation between CLF and WC was not uncommon in chinese community in southern china. many differing styles crossed hands.

the CLF and WC situation was going on for many years before anyone can claim who started it and who didn't.

both arts won and loss, so to that end neither one can claim victory as a whole, although depending on which style you came from you would claim you had the upper hand hahaha.

eventually a senior wing chun player ( no names required but very famous and not one who was known outside the martial community at that time ), made dispariging remarks towards the CLF on its affectivness, this happened well into the gung sau situations.

to this the five panthers went and visit, with many wing chun players also there, the seniors of both sides, due to the situation becoming out of hand, decided on a final gung sau between the best of the CLF and WC.

each would choose five. the fight never eventuated, due to reasons that have been kept quiet, although some say things to cover this, but not full story.

either way the british local goverment found out about it and that was the end of that.

the names are known of the five in both circles, all reagarded as great fighter of the time.

over the many years things start to come out that either didn't happen or did but not as what is said, imagination, however it was dangerous times and things did happen beyond normal cross hands.

peace

[Not a Dancer]

I really appreciate the time you guys put to respond. Thanks for the help.

[yik-wah-tik]

there are many stories about wing chun against clf. i am a clf man, and ever since i started learning i have heard clf and wing chun were mortal enemies.

there was one fight on the roof tops in hk between bruce lee and a clf fighter. in the first round the clf guy blackened bruce's eye and bruce was afraid to continue fighting. bruces sifu told bruce that if he didn't go back out and fight bruce would have to worry about a beating from his sifu. bruce came out swinging like a mad man and beat the clf fighter. because of that fight, bruce made comments that clf is one of the most effective and hardest styles to defend against.

the 2nd story i have heard goes some way back, i believe in hk. tam fei pang-tam sam's son over heard some w.c. students stating that clf would never beat w.c. and tam fei pang went back to his kwoon and gathered up many clf students and went over to the w.c. school, locked the kwoon's doors and proceeded to beat the crap out of the w.c. students, it was said to be a blood bath.

myself, i encountered a cocky w.c. student of a local popular sifu who made comments to me like "ask you sifu how many times my sifu kicked your sifu's ass", if i did not restrain myself i would have snatched that fool straight over the counter and woop his ass. but i was in his place of work and he did not want to come outside. but i commented to him firstly that that would never have happened because my sifu was a well known member of one of sf's most notorious chinatown gangs, and two, the hung sing kwoon of sf would have wreaked havoc on them.

although there are some who do not subscribe to this nonsense between styles, but there are those who think the are invinceable in w.c..hopefully this silly war will cease, but until then, the fight rages on.


frank

:D

"graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it's tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head"

[k-no]

I have heard many stories of both sides, namely of a WC instructor locking himself in the toilet after a CLF siege at their school when that certain WC school was talking smack. I think I'll let someone else tell that one. =)


I'll relate however, an anecdote from HK a few years back, when my dai sihing, Simon was having yum cha with my CLF Sigung Kong Hing. Simon asked Sigung "How come you don't like Wing Chun (players)?" My Sigung thought carefully....and replied, "Well....it's not that I don't like them...I HATE THEM!!!!" That story always gets me cracking up and illustrates how the old schoolers keep the rivalries going on. ;)

[yik-wah-tik]

k-no, are you from sifu lacey's school?

i am from the hung sing school in san francisco.

hey, do you know that the chan family members on this forum claim that they have never heard of kong hing? can you believe that? kong hing is pretty famous, even when his the lacey brothers kicked chan yong fa's students butt's in a tournament so time ago.

i heard chan yong fa was not too happy about that, and asked the lacey's to back off.

i guess the elders still hold lots of grudges against any who belittle clf or think they are supreme.

frank
fran

"graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it's tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head"

[Shaolin36]

Does anybody know anything about the Lacey brothers and their Choy Lay Fut skills and teachings.

[yik-wah-tik]

yes, the lacey brothers-vince and dave are from australia and have studied under master kong hing.

both vince and dave are well known fighters, and are twins. their son shane lacey is also a well known fighter who won the tat wong 4 start grandchampionship in the past.

is there anything specific you would like to know?

i'll try to answer, and if i can't i will call sifu vince himself.


frank

"graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it's tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head"

[Cody]

The Lacey brothers, Dave and Vince, teach in separate schools in Northern California's East Bay. They are twins, and they are not friends. What is known in public and what exists in their private situations are different, and I cannot discuss this. I know both of them.
If you are considering one or the other, I would caution that you should not try to football between their separate establishments.

I don't know what their current teaching styles are like. In 1996, there was little similarity. Even the first Choy Lay Fut form used was different. Drills were different.
Vince Lacey's school was heavily into contact. In fact, one needed to put on the gloves early on in order to proceed along his belt system. He also teaches Wing Chun. His son, Shane, runs the school with him.
Dave Lacey teaches Choy Lay Fut, and at the time he would throw in some Hung Ga for those interested, though that was not a class. The drills (punching, kicking) were fine. He is complex.
Both men are strong and have fine credentials. They are primal, temperamental sorts, who have made their way in this world and have worked hard.

for Vince Lacey see: http://www.buksing.com
for Dave Lacey see: http://www.pantherfist.com/index.html

These websites should give you most of the technical info you need.

take care,
Cody

[Shaolin36]

Thank you Gentlemen for the info.
Just wanted to see the reputation they hold.
The sites are very informative.
Thanks again,

Shaolin

[yik-wah-tik]

if you wouldn't mind, please keep the lacey brothers personal business off this forum. it is their own family business and unless they hear it from the horses mouth, no one should make any comments on this.

rumors start, just as did one with a karate guy who said my sifu and his old chinatown gang were going to gang up on sifu vince. i was unaware of this rumor until i went to visit sifu vince who explained it to me.

i cleared things up, and i feel we made a worthy ally in him. but i have much respect for his family but choose not to get involved with his personal family business.

i hope you understand.

are you or were you a student of either of the lacey's?


frank

"graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it's tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head"

[bean curd]

yik wah tik,

totally agree with you on the personal stuff, why cody would bring this up in such converstion i don't see the point to !!!

story number two you gave, it was in hong kong and tan shing was also there, one of tam fei pang sifu's best fighting females was there also, so wasn't just the guys getting in on the act lol.

many wing chun at the gwoon, not as many choi li fut went to visit, but it was a controlled encounter non the less, but the result is as you have said.

it was because of this incident that elders from both sides got together, anyway, some of the elders where in on the situation from a CLF point of view, so it wasn't hard for them to talk.

as the saying was at the time from CLF , " if you open your mouth, your fist better follow !!! "

regarding chan yong fa not nowing kong hing. i have said before he knows kong hing, if he chooses not to acknowledge this, then that is his decission, however there are those who know better.

chan yong fa incident with buk sing, is old news and long gone, there is no animosity between anyone.

[Cody]

I interpreted Shaolin36's question as being wide open, and answered it as such. If this person was interested in further study, I felt that a caution was in order, because the options are not as open as they might appear, and awareness is best. If you disagree, I can't help that.

Having studied with both Lacey brothers, and being involved, and having sacrificed a great deal, I am neither hanging out the laundry, nor talking about something I do not know of first hand, to the degree that I do, and to the degree that I feel is in order. I do hope that someday the matter is resolved.

I don't deal in rumors or lies, and I don't care much for those who knowingly, and with the ability to choose otherwise, do so. In making that statement, I am asserting my honor, which is very much alive.

I gave an honest, discreet answer in terms of the humanity of those concerned and their impressive skills, as this might impact a prospective student. I think we understand each other, but I don't think we're coming from the same place. It's okay. Please understand that I am trying to do something right, in my own way, as impartially as I can.

As I said, the question was wide open.
bean curd, I hope this clarifies the issue for you too.

Let's go on to other things.

Cody

[yik-wah-tik]

cody,

i trust you know better, the lacey's are traditional sifu's who teach their students the culteral aspect of our gung fu, i just don't want people going around making comments about his personal business on this forum. you know how rumors spread?!?!?!?!

i feel even if the lacey's talk openly about their issues, it is not our place to talk about them.
you are right, and i thank you for cautioning them, because this can be a touchy subject, and the wrong person can push the wrong buttons, and oh ****, the **** has hit the fan.

so what does anyone think of the lacey's website at "buksing.com"

let me know

frank

"graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it's tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head"

[k-no]

My CLF sifu is Dave Lacey. I am currently training in Muay Thai and NHB tactics but will return to pay my respects and train with Sifu Lacey again when I feel that my ring presence and performance are adequate for pro competition.


I appreciate those who choose not to address the subject between the Lacey brothers. I am privy to some facts that make me biased in this saga but I let them rest and leave it be. There are a lot of unsubstantiated rumors abound that I had the misfortunes to witness first hand, and since I do not know both sides of the story as most everyone else, I prefer to let what I know lie between my sifu and myself.

Yik Wah Tik, yes I find it preposterous that the Chan Family refuses to acknowlede Jeong Hung Sing, but there's really not much we can do but train on. There will always be the Doc Fai Wongs of the world, and before I get started I will let that rest also.

I'm just glad our internal rift is a *little* milder than the WC/WT/VT families'.

K

[yik-wah-tik]

thanks.

i agree with you, the story for me came from vince, and i have never talked to dave before.

everytime he mentions it to me i cringe, i don't want to be involved in their family business.
i have much respect for them though.

thanks for your support on the hung sing history side, i know it is going to take some time before all 3 families come toghether. but i know when it comes down to it, all clf will stick together like americans did when it came to the terrorist attack.

we are all strong. choy lee fut boyeeeeeee!

"graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it's tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head"