The Interwoven History of Hung Ga and CLF

[Fu-Pow]

How interwoven are they? It seems that these two systems came to popularity around the same time. And its seems they share a lot of similarities in movement. Were there any famous masters who were friends where one studied CLF and the other studied Hung Ga? Were there ever any grudge matches between the two styles?

[once ronin]

clf was popular mostly in toi san area and that is a big area. chan heurng only had 18 disciples in the beginning so clf did not spread as fast as hung gar.

clf people were working to also to over throw the ching and was not much in the public eye. have the old clf masters explain the names of clf forms and this will verify they were mostly under ground rebels.

hung gar was popular in guangzhou mostly and not spreading to much to the shek qi area. lum sai wing and wong kay ying had alot of students teaching. a good portion of guangzhou taught hung gar.

lau gar was popular in the shek qi and guangzhou area.

if there were not likely instructors of both styles during the 1800's it was not a common practice to teach or learn both. if there were people doing it would have been kept quiet.

[desertwingchun2]

I hope this doesn't come across wrong. I'm a wing chun practitioner but very interested in all chinese martial arts. One of my sihing studied Lau Gar in Europe and I have met a few people who study Hung Gar here in the states. In San Fransisco a couple of weeks back for the Qigong 10th Anniversary Event I met some people from the Jow Gar system. I have heard that the prefix is related to different family surnames. In the case of Jow Gar i visited some very informative websites and found the information to be consistant. Basically is there a parent style of the many "Gar" systems? That is the part that Im hoping doesn't come across wrong. If it does it was born of curiosity and ignoance to the relationships between systems. Any help will be greatly appreciated.
thank you
david

[sean_stonehart]

Gar or Ga is Cantonese for family. In Mandarin it's Jia.

[bean curd]

how internwoven are they ??? that is an interesting question, that is somewhat difficult to answer as it is not specific enough to focus on what you mean by INTERWOVEN.

Hung Kuen and CLF from a superficial basis may look the same, what i mean by this is a punch is a punch and a stance is a stance, so from an extremly superficial perspective you could say yes, but the expression that destinguishes these two styles is very much different.

the expression of three levels of understanding, which is faht, ging and faht ging is not the same and is very obvious not only if seen by differing players but is also noticed when playing both skills.

Hung Kuen is settled, CLF is mobile, Hung Kuen is abosorbing while CLF is sending. if you can understand this regarding the concpets of the five immediates - jing, chi, shen, yi and ging, with the three levels - faht , ging and faht ging, you will clearly see the great differance in the two, which makes then such great and individual skills of play.

i am not trying to sound to evaisive in answering your question but in the matter you have looked at the saying " feeling is better than hearing " is paramount to the answers you are looking for.

hopefully what i have eluded too above, although abstract, will let let you study in your mind the differances, such a task to clarify would take a book.

as to Hung Kuen from a historical perspective to CLF historical perspective, this again depends on when and who you are looking at i.e. Chan Hueng - Wong Kei Ying, Hung Sing - Wong Fei HUNG, even which hung kuen as the lineage of Hung Kuen in kwandong comes from two sources taking out village Hung Kuen, those two sources being Hung Hei Gun or Luk Ah Choy.

Hung Kuen is also well known in Toi San as well as Canton, so it is differse.

to CLF that have learnt it, there are quite a few, the more well known would be for example Tam Sam who learnt young before learning CLF. it was actually well common for players to learn skills from other schools, the idea of not learning was a more modern thought due to paranoia, shei gar, tan gar, choy gar, li gar etc where well diversed in sothern china. kwandong possessed a many great players - the ten tigers alone express such a skill base.

write too much - sorry
:D

[mysteri]

Originally posted by sean_stonehart
Gar or Ga is Cantonese for family. In Mandarin it's Jia.

to further elaborate on what sean_stoneheart said: hung gar= hung family(system), jow ga= jow family(system), lau gar=lau family (system). there is no parent art (gar) from which they derive(other than shaolin). i hope this answers ur inquiry. jus my 2 cents...

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by mysteri


to further elaborate on what sean_stoneheart said: hung gar= hung family(system), jow ga= jow family(system), lau gar=lau family (system). there is no parent art (gar) from which they derive(other than shaolin). i hope this answers ur inquiry. jus my 2 cents...

Thank you very much. That does help clear up my confusions. I have also been doing some research on the internet. So again thank you for the 2 cents.
-David

[loaddown]

I don't mean to intrude into the Hung Kuen debate. But because of the confusing myriad lineage histories of Wing Chun I now found myself needing any clue I can get in helping me to better understand my own Wing Chun style.

I think Hung Kuen can help me because of certain similarities in lineage histories and in apply techniques the five ancestors of Jee Shim, Ng Mui, Fung Tao Duk, Hin, Ba Mei; the story of Jee Shim and Hung Hei Gun; and the story of Ng Mui and Fong Sei Yuk; the significant story of Hung Hei Gun and Fong Wing Chun forming the Tiger and Crane form. These Hung Kuen stories overlapped and reinforced the stories from Wing Chun.

On the other hand lineage histories from Wong Fei Hung's Hung Kuen correspond with Choy Li Fut. The five ancestors are now Hung, Mok, Li, Choy, Lau. With the likely hood of the Tiger and Crane form choreographed by WFH from Choy and Li.

However Wong Fei Hung lineage is Jee Shim, Luk A Choy, Wong Kei Ying, and Wong Fei Hung. This is somewhat different from the lineage of Jee Shim, Hung Hei Gun, then others. The question is does any Hung Kuen practitioners have their lineage descended from Jee Shim, Hung Hei Gun as oppose to descending from Jee Shim, Luk A Choy? If Hung Hei Gun is not part of Wong Fei Hung lineage as Hung Hei Gun is replaced by Luk A Choy instead, Why does Wong Fei Hung's Hung Kuen called itself Hung Kuen when Hung Kuen is named after Hung Hei Gun?

Is the Chinese character for Hung from WFH Hung Kuen the same as Hung Kuen from Hung Hei Gun’s? There is also the complication of the Red Fist style.

P.S. I left out the story where Jee Shim taught both Hung Hei Gun and Luk A Choy. Subsequently both Hung Hei Gun and later Luk A Choy taught Wong Kei Ying.

Wai-Sing Fung

[Je Lei Sifu]

Hi Loaddown,

The may be some confusion in you stating that in Wong Fei Hung's lineage the five ancestors are Hung, Lau, Choy, Li, Mok.

In fact, these are the names of the five family systems that developed in Southern China and were considered to be the top five during that era.

Considering both Hung Hei Gune and Luk Ah Choi were students of Gee Sim, Gee Sim can be considered the creator of Hung Kuen. Since taking on the surname of Hung and being the most well-known practitioner of his brand of Naam Siu Lum Kuen, the style was named after Hung Hei Gune.

As far as the question of coming from Hung Hei Gune lineage or Luk Ah Choi lineage, practitioners of Wong Fei Hung's lineage can truthfully claim both. My personal reason for stating this is that although Hung and Luk learned from Gee Sim, Luk also furthered his skills under Hung's tutelage. Hung had passed all his knowledge and skill onto Luk. So in a way, we can claim to be a part of both, but in reality we are through Luk Ah Choy.

Peace

Je Lei Sifu

[Tao-Yin-Lee]

Wong-Fei-Hung was a friend of Wong-Yan-Lum the Tibetan Hop-Gar Lion's Roar master who defeated 150 Si-Fu's in Canton to become the #1 in the Canton Ten Tigers Association.

It is fairly well known amongst Hung-Gar people that Wong-Fei-Hung and Wong-Yan-Lum exchanged techiques, Wong-Yan-Lum's long-fists becoming incorporated into the Tiger and Crane set, and Wong-Fei-Hung's 5-Animals being adopted by Wong-Yan-Lum.

The 5-Animals of Wong-Fei-Hung are still found in some branches of the Tibetan Lama arts. The Hop-Gar long-fists became fully incorporated into Hung-Gar and evolved to take on the characteristics of the Hung-Gar system, making then different somewhat to the original Hop-Gar techniques.

Some Choy-Lay-Fut masters also practice/teach Hop-Gar, Chan-Tat-Fu of Hong-Kong for example, the Vice President and Co-Founder member of the Hong-Kong Chinese Martial Arts Association Ltd. Chan-Tat-Fu's Hop-Gar is direct from Wong-Yan-Lum thru the lineage arising from his senior disciple, Wong-Hon-Wing.

Tao
www.tibetankungfu.com

[once ronin]

tai yin lee, where or from who can i find this information to support this statement of wong yan lum and wong fei hung?

[bean curd]

i would like to see this also of notation of meeting, if possable.

fu hok cern ying last page states clearly by chu yu tsai - hung kuen combination of sum gin faht and fut gar lohan kuen faht.

interested in your thought

[Tao-Yin-Lee]

You can try David Ross's Lama Kung-Fu web site, or try contacting him from there on personal e-mail. David is a qualified historian and has researched the history of Tibetan arts in China more thoroughly than any non-Chinese I know of. There is no suggestion that Wong-Fei-Hung learned his Fu-Hok from Wong-Yan-Lum, only that he was influenced by his friendship with Wong-Yan-Lum, and, some of that influenec turned up in the Fu-Hok set.

Any informed Tibetan pai source will know this information too.
Even my own Hung-Gar Si-Fu the late Master Jimmy Chan-Wai was open about this information.

If you are Hung-Gar (?) ask your Si-Fu about Wong-Yan-Lum and his #1 position in the Canton Tigers.

Hung-Gar and Hop-Gar have a long history of contact, exchange and friendship.

Tao
www.tibetankungfu.com

[once ronin]

alot of lama or white crane people say that wong kay ying and wong yen lum were friends and made exchanges, not with wong fei hung.

these are from the lama school of choi lo chut.

[Tao-Yin-Lee]

I'm unsuprised by that, but thank you nevertheless. Different versions of 'history' are the norm in Chinese martial arts.

Check out this url, it mentions my proposition quite cleary;

http://www.greencloud.com/history_LamaPai.html

My own Hung-Gar lineage is quite positive about the connection between Wong-Yan-Lum and Wong-Fei-Hung and found no problem with it at all.

Wong-Yan-Lum is the immediate source of Hop-Gar and some Lama-Pai branches. Sai-Jong Bak-Hok and some Lama-Pai derives as a source from Wong-Yan-Lum's brother Wong-Lum-Hoi.

All are from Sing-Lung Lama back to Ah-Dat-Tor Lama in Tibet. Most Tibetan lineages cross at many points.

Tao
www.tibetankungfu.com

[once ronin]

which linage of hung gar are you from tao yin lee?

[loaddown]

Though not part of the Hung Kuen lineage and I have made a few errors in detail regarding the histories of the style. This is so when I erroneously said above that Hung Hei Guin taught Wong Kei Ying when in fact only Luk Ah Choy taught Wong Kei Ying. Nevertheless I like to continue to make things clear at least if only to myself.

In regard to five ancestors and/or five families what Je Lei Sifu have said above could be correct in a conventional sense. However convention could be change such as if the disciples of the five ancestors want to re-designate themselves into five families and calling themselves as five families then they are correct to do so. In the same way that if the disciples of the five families want to re-designate themselves as the disciples of their five respective founders of their respective families styles as their respective ancestors then it is also correct for them to do so as well.

It would be interesting to see if there are Hung Kuen lineages outside off that of Luk Ah Choy that have the Tiger and Crane form. If there were, then the traditional view that Hung Hei Guin choreographed it would be true. Even if so, it also could be true that Wong Fei Hung from his vast experience and genius could have made changes to the traditional Tiger and Crane form so that within his own lineage of Jee Shim-Luk Ah Choy-Wong Kei Ying-Wong Fei Hung, he himself could rightfully be accredited with choreographing the form which is found within his own lineage. In fact Wong Fei Hung is rightfully accredited with the creation of his own Hung Kuen style with the addition of a few new traditional forms.

Wai-Sing Fung

[yik-wah-tik]

i have heard it somewhere that wong fei hong had actually learned some clf from jeong yim at one point. but i am still researching this.

no from what i have heard wong fei hong was really a good martial artist, he was more well known for his herbal remedies?! is this true?

can anyone shed any light on hung hei goon? from what i understand is that he is a purely fictional character? i am sorry but i am ignorant of this.
so pls forgive my ignorance........


frank

[Tao-Yin-Lee]

O.R.

Wong-Fei-Hung
Fung-Hok-Biu
Law-Keung
Chan-Wai

Check the web site below and go to the 'Shaolin' pages for Hung-Gar and Bak-Siu-Lum.

Tao
www.tibetankungfu.com