San Shou Ignorance [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

jon

09-14-2002, 12:46 AM

San Shao is a ring combat art developed by the Peoples Republic of China.

Its most similar to Thai boxing with the big difference being the 'clinch'.
In Thai boxing knees and elbows are used when the fighters start to clinch. In San Shao usualy throws are the order of the day.

Its ring combat in the true sence of the word, its NOT a streetfighting art.
Its also very good fun and an excerlent conditioning method and way for students to get some proper contact experience.

The main reason it comes off looking a little more like Kung Fu is there is less restrictions on the types of striking techniques. People use backfists and spinning movements and many different kicking techniques. Also obviously being traditionaly a Chinese made art many of the practioners are also traditional martial artists.

If you have anything specific please ask away and ill do my best to answer.

PS In MOST San Shao fights Knees and elbows are illegal, same with Thai boxing most throws are illegal. This is where the major difference lies. Other than that the two are actualy very closely related.

CD Lee

09-14-2002, 12:17 PM

SanHeChuan:

Excellent. I have bookmarked and will look at further.

One big question: Where can one view SanShou matches and why have I not seen anything at least on cable or something like that? Looks like it would be pretty good to watch.

Mutant

09-14-2002, 12:31 PM

CD-Lee,

San Shou is a ring (&/or lei tei) sport based on CMA. It is a modern full-contact training method, that uses traditional, as well as the best cutting edge modern (whether derived from China or not) training methods available. In this sense it is both, it is progressive. Many traditional methods and techniques ARE used (although this varies; other styles also compete but generaly do not dominate). Many of the core CMA techiques can be utilized with this gear on.

Check out www.marvinperry.org for some clips and info.

ps. ralek knows nothing about this sport.

Braden

09-14-2002, 02:37 PM

Try to keep in mind the difference between a sportive venue and a system of training methods. This word can be used to describe forms of both, but these two things are not the same thing.

NPMantis

09-14-2002, 03:48 PM

What do you mean wrong? Ralek? Shock horror! And there was me being under the impression his opinion counted for a lot on this forum.

wusu2000

09-14-2002, 05:11 PM

Listen guys you are partly right and wrong. Here is a site that will explain everything. Also I want to add something. Thailand and China fought each other like 6 times already, the last fight was a couple of days ago in china. 6 competitors 1 being a female. Muay thai fighters lost 6 to 1. They only won two competions in the past year or so. China challenged or was challenged by Japan(karate),Korea(TKD),Thailand(MuayThai),Americ a(kickboxing, and boxing), and every country who fought lost. With an almost complete victory on every match. Sanshou is awsome and I hope to train in China and learn as much as I can next year. So here is the site
http://www.terra.es/personal/ealpan/articles/sandaw.htm

Ralek

09-14-2002, 08:00 PM

I know nothing about san shou? If i remember correctly I have fought a san shou fighter in a challnege match who was the #3 winner in the national tournament or something who outwieghed me. And several of the people on this forum know him and he has told them that we fought.

I see san shou. What i see are WRESTLING moves. I see Double leg takedowns. I know what a doulbe leg takedown is. I see Wrestlings Supplexes. When did the chinese kung fu people start wrestling? You don't need to be an expert to see that san shou has borrowed the ancient art of wrestling. But mysteriously this is called kung fu moves. I guess wrestlers are really chinese kung fu stylists.

The TKD connection. The spinning backfists, side kicks, and lots of front leg kicks. It is the very stereotypical essence of TKD itself.

Muay thai. Watch the fight's striking. The leg checks, roundhouse with the shin.

I see every move in san shou being EXACTLY identical to something in Wrestling, TKD, or Muay thai (and sometimes judo). There is not one move that is not from these styles.

But throughout hundreds of challenge matches between BJJ people and kung fu people it has been proven that even an average BJJ blue belt can defeat Kung fu stylists who have been training for over 10 years. I knocked out a taijiquan instructor myself and i'm not even the striker type of fighter.

dre

09-14-2002, 08:46 PM

Oh my sweet god! Can he shut up!?

Ralek

09-14-2002, 08:54 PM

I am not dre. You can check my IP address if you don't beleive me.

NPMantis

09-15-2002, 03:49 AM

So sorry, I forgot what a master of kung fu you were. Actually we do much grappling in kung fu, including double leg take downs, KF is not only a striking art... though I'm sure you already know this being a master of all things MA (and of course the hardest man on the forum, ha ha).

Merryprankster

09-15-2002, 05:19 AM

Listen guys you are partly right and wrong. Here is a site that will explain everything. Also I want to add something. Thailand and China fought each other like 6 times already, the last fight was a couple of days ago in china. 6 competitors 1 being a female. Muay thai fighters lost 6 to 1. They only won two competions in the past year or so. China challenged or was challenged by Japan(karate),Korea(TKD),Thailand(MuayThai),Americ

Hey, look at me! I'm a Communist country that can hand-pick the people that fight here and we fought on Chinese soil with Chinese judges and hey, I forgot to mention we're a notoriously racist culture. And we WON those fights! Imagine that!

I'm not knocking San Shou--I love it, love watching it, would love to FIGHT in it, but this kind of stuff always smacks of the "It's the best," stuff.

jon

09-15-2002, 05:24 AM

"I want to add something. Thailand and China fought each other like 6 times already, the last fight was a couple of days ago in china. 6 competitors 1 being a female. Muay thai fighters lost 6 to 1. They only won two competions in the past year or so. China challenged or was challenged by Japan(karate),Korea(TKD),Thailand(MuayThai),Americ a (kickboxing, and boxing), and every country who fought lost. With an almost complete victory on every match. "

* Under what rule set???
Being an avid fan of San Shao and also doing a lot of it myself this becomes hard to say. Still i hate seeing facts get bent and i also hate seeing one art billed as being 'supperiour' to all others.

For a start...
Yes China and Thailand often have exibition matches, the inherent problem being they can NEVER agree on rules that still benifit both sets of fighters.
Under the Chinese rule set the Chinese always win, becouse there opponents cant use knees and elbows ( which are a BIG part of there weaponary). Under Thailand rules the Chinese always get learned due to not being able to use there throws and not being used to dealing with the Thailand fighters clinch game.
There was also once a match between San Shao and western boxers. The western boxers had to stick to boxing rules and the Chinese where allowed full access to there San Shao movements.
Needless to say the boxers where slaughtered but STILL a couple managed to win there fights!!!

San Shao is not some unbeatable ringfighting art, its simply a sport. Change the rules and you automaticaly run into trouble.

They have been trying for YEARS to organise comps where both the Thai's and the Chinese can use there full arsonal but you would never guess what... Neither party wants that either.
The plain fact is everyone is comfortable in there own happy little world.

There is no point argueing over which is better out of San Shao Thai Boxing, kickboxing, western boxing, shootfighting. When it comes down to it there all simply sports.
Do you ask an archer why he cant use a pistol?

Liokault

09-15-2002, 05:39 AM

I think that what most people are missing here is that san shou is not a stlye it is a FORMAT!! Now if some one wants to call their art san shou they are mearly quoteing their chosen competition format in their stlyes title.

You said you have never seen any on tv.....Well if it takes off at the olympics then that will change.

The best thing going for san shou is that fights tend to be much more crowd pleasing than watching 2 guys dry hump each other on the floor for half an hour!!

CD Lee

09-15-2002, 08:24 AM

Liokault said

The best thing going for san shou is that fights tend to be much more crowd pleasing than watching 2 guys dry hump each other on the floor for half an hour!!

:D :D :D :D :D That is so true.

I gotta say, I have to fast-forward when watching a rerun of a UFC event in which they just fall into the guard for 5 minutes at a time.

I am not sure what exotic techniques Ralek is looking for in Kung Fu styles to be so unique when used at speed. If he saw a good Xingyi fighter I know exactly what he would say. "The guy used boxing!!! I saw an uppercut. He was charging the guy and blasting him with punches!" I don't think he would see anything there that would satisfy his craving for some idealistic Kung Fu technique that he has in mind.

Is an armbar Kung Fu? Who cares. There is a lot of crossover in non-rules based MA because the human body works a certain way. An arm bar is a great example. It is in Karate, JJ, BJJ, Kung Fu styles, etc. It is simply a manipulation of the human structure. I think Xingyi kicks and stomps look like street fighting, but who cares? It works. Stomping your opponent could be used by any style on the street. Are people using Kung Fu everytime they stomp on a guys instep or back of his calf? Ridiculous really.

friday

09-15-2002, 08:38 AM

MP

wouldn't most of those bias factors apply to most countries?
except the communist thing and i'm not sure how much that relates to things either

Liokault

09-15-2002, 09:50 AM

There was also once a match between San Shao and western boxers. The western boxers had to stick to boxing rules and the Chinese where allowed full access to there San Shao movements.

Was this the one where it was agreed that the boxers were alowed to fight on their knees to make up for their lack of anti takedown training Jon?

Also can we please stop feeding the troll Ralek and all just ignore him?

wusu2000

09-15-2002, 10:19 AM

The thai's were allowed to elbow and knee. But they had to wear elbow pads. They wear them for training and so it limits cuts on the body of there opponent. Also, the guy who says Chinese wushu/sanshou looks like wrestling, well your right. They took Shai Jiao, the oldest form of chinese martial arts dating back more than 5000 or so years, and incorperated it with sanshou. Not some western boxing and wrestling. You actually think westerners came up with boxing. Come on man use common sense.

Chang Style Novice

09-15-2002, 11:34 AM

Anytime Ralek posts on a thread with "Ignorance" in the title, he's on topic.:)

CD Lee's last two paragraphs are a perfect summation of my opinions on the subject.

Merryprankster

09-15-2002, 01:06 PM

Friday,

Communist countries have historically viewed every athlete and success in the arena as a demonstration that their system of government does great things.

As far as the racism goes, you're talking about a culture that historically viewed itself as far superior to everybody else in the world, with their culture/race being human, and everybody else being barbarians, with less recent justification, I might add, than almost any other civilization on earth. The Chinese did some amazing things, and their culture is varied and rich. It has also historically been intensely anti-anything-not-Chinese. The Japanese have historically done the same thing, but that seems to have gotten beat out of them somewhat.

I'm not arguing that other cultures don't suffer from similar problems, but it seems to be particularly ingrained in the Chinese culture, and there doesn't seem to be a whole lot to discourage it.

CD Lee

09-15-2002, 01:44 PM

Also can we please stop feeding the troll Ralek and all just ignore him?

Hey! It is always fun to feed the animals. Let's just make sure we stop short of a petting zoo for Ralek please. :D :D

Le nOObi

09-15-2002, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by Merryprankster
As far as the racism goes, you're talking about a culture that historically viewed itself as far superior to everybody else in the world, with their culture/race being human, and everybody else being barbarians, with less recent justification, I might add, than almost any other civilization on earth.
[snip]
I'm not arguing that other cultures don't suffer from similar problems, but it seems to be particularly ingrained in the Chinese culture, and there doesn't seem to be a whole lot to discourage it.

I dont think its particularly ingrained in the chinese at all. I think to some extent this does border on racism on your part. What about the colonialism that practically evey western country engaged in? What about the treatment of non-christians in the western world and its colonies?What about the treatment of natives by western explorer? etc etc etc...

CD Lee

09-15-2002, 08:49 PM

So...WHERE DO SANDA MATCHES GET BROADCAST IN THE STATES??? Where have all you guys seen these matches?

Merryprankster

09-16-2002, 12:22 AM

Le nOObi,

Nobody's perfect Le nOObi. And I've found that individuals rarely ever live up to the stereotypes we set for them. Germans are not all cold and calculating, and the Chinese aren't all racist. Let me rephrase it to something more acceptable, and hopefully more accurate.

There is a great emphasis in Chinese culture on tradition. Doing things the 'right way,' the traditional way, the Chinese way. This, IMO, tends to create insular thinking, and it's a short leap to 'everybody else is doing it wrong, so we must be better.' 'Right thinking,' is dangerous ala 1984. Of course, that applies to more than just cultures and races, but can apply to political ideologies (Communism), Religions (the Crusades, or as you pointed out, forced missions to native cultures, etc).

I think every culture has had this at one point in time or still struggles with it. The Greeks did it... so did the Romans. I imagine some feel the west, and the U.S. in particular, are doing it now. My rant should have been more against insular thinking- which leads to hubris, rather than the Chinese, the issue is certainly not unique to the Chinese.... I apologize for the tone and for any insult. I can't say it wasn't intended to some degree, but it certainly has an air about it I'm not happy with. Pointing out that the Chinese have been just as guilty as anybody else would have sufficed quite nicely. I'm probably tired of the constant indictment of western culture as though we're the source of all evil, and overreacted.

On an internet forum no less. KEEEEE-RIST I need a life!

Merryprankster

09-16-2002, 01:39 AM

Just so it's not buried in the post:

I apologize for what I posted re: Chinese racism. It was a poor choice of words, and hardly accurate. The problem is certainly not unique to any civilization, and it's far more accurate to identify it as a human problem.

Mea Culpa. I'll probably need to get hit by a bus to restore the karmic balance I f-ed up on this one!

Le nOObi

09-16-2002, 05:14 AM

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Just so it's not buried in the post:

I apologize for what I posted re: Chinese racism. It was a poor choice of words, and hardly accurate. The problem is certainly not unique to any civilization, and it's far more accurate to identify it as a human problem.

Mea Culpa. I'll probably need to get hit by a bus to restore the karmic balance I f-ed up on this one!

Everybody makes dumb posts sometimes! Apology accepted!

Suntzu

09-16-2002, 06:13 AM

SAN SHOU IS THE GREATEST SPORT IN THE WORLD!!!! But it's not on TV… so for now the only places to see sanshou is at a san shou event or a tournament that has san shou… which is too bad cuz I have seen some PPV quality fight that unless you was there or has a tape of the fight, will never be seen again... hopefully, the AoW in Oct will get some press... news print, magazines, TV... something...

MightyB

09-16-2002, 06:18 AM

I don't do anything remotely computer related on weekends, so I've just seen this post.

The reason I like San Shou and why I've converted to it as my sole form of competition is that it gives me a chance to really mix it up.

I don't get that chance in class because I'm an assistant instructer and I seriously out match the newbies. It would be like picking fights with my 8 year old nephew and expecting to get anything productive out of it if I was to seriously spar any of the students in my class.

Also, when dealing with Si Hing or Si Fu, I have a natural tendancy to hold back. I don't want to mix it up seriously because of respect, and, no matter how good I get, my Sifu would just wipe the floor with me. The dude is super human fast.

So San Shou gives me the opportunity to go all out without restrictions.

Most of the people that knock San Shou here haven't tried it.

I like to think of it as another important training device in my development as a martial artist. I get so much out of it just by competing. I really don't care for "this is better than that" type of arguments like this thread has become. Who cares if a throw looks like wrestling or a punch looks like boxing if it works. That's why I say that there isn't a serious fighter who isn't MMA. I would even venture to say that all major MMA people who are successful in the UFC and such are actually the best examples of Bruce Lee's concept of Jeet Kune Do.

neptunesfall

09-16-2002, 06:47 AM

When did the chinese kung fu people start wrestling? - ralek
a few thousand years ago, dipsh*t. it's called shuai chiao.

CD Lee

09-16-2002, 01:33 PM

...a few thousand years ago, dipsh*t. it's called shuai chiao.

Yeah, thats pretty funny. I recently did a Bagua throwing seminar. If Ralek was there, he would have definately said, "You guys are using Judo!" Bagua when throwing uses slightly different methods to do a throw than judo of JJ. I had major problems trying not to throw using a traditional judo hip throw (which I learned and practiced when younger). The Bagua set up the intitial throwing position very similarly, but pulled the opponents unsteady base over the Bagua's steady base using rotation of the torso with the upper leg as a fulcrum vesus using the hip as the fulcrum and throwing the guy over the hip. But at first, I could not see the difference.

The point is that Kung Fu can throw, trip, or lock up people. Anybody could call it whatever they think they see. I think Roy Jones stole Tsuan Chuan from Xingyi, but he thinks it is an uppercut from western boxing. hehehe

jungle-mania

09-17-2002, 03:55 AM

Has anyone seen a competition where sanshou competes muay thai? I have seen one so far, but the fight was give away to the muay thai fighter since he had more experience and the san shou fighter seemed like a fish out of the water fighting in the ring. However, if anyone knows of a good fight please tell me.

Liokault

09-17-2002, 07:09 AM

[URL=http://www.sanshou.co.uk/]San Shou circuit in UK[/UR

I have fought against thai boxers on at least one occasion in the circuit above.

It was san shou rules but very few Thai boxers in the UK fight with elbows anyway.

The san shou is run by Barbera Antonio and is very good. She invites a very varied cross section of martial artists to her events and gets a good turn out.

It should also be pointed out that san shou with elbows and knees is starting to happen more and more in the UK.

Suntzu

09-17-2002, 08:05 AM

yeah I got hit… um I mean… fought in a fight with knees… I don’t like them… i think they take away from the throws… but than again I'm biased…

Liokault

09-17-2002, 10:00 AM

You dont need to worry about the knees....there are so many throwing opertunities that open up when someone starts kneeing.....so much so i just about stoped doing it in my class now.

Elbows are a bit differant though.

ShaolinTiger00

09-17-2002, 10:15 AM

liokault brings up an excllent point about knees.
Think about this.

If opponent is attempting to knee you, he is in very close range and has just lifted one leg into the air. He has just made a risk. Big score or big loss. As long as your posture/stance is upright and not bent over, chances are you are going to block this with many options or just forego the block and attempt a counter attack throw or leg sweep or kick to the inside of his support leg.

Why are you discussing knees and san shou in the same breath? Knees are never legal in san shou. However professional san DA use them and elbows. Fights between san da and muay thai have become quite popular. King of Sanda fights.

Suntzu

09-17-2002, 11:11 AM

Knees are never legal in san shou. well smack me on da azz and call me momma… but I know what a knee looks/and feels like and I was aquainted with it during a san shou match… san da... san shou... whatever...

You dont need to worry about the knees....if u say so...
there are so many throwing opertunities that open up when someone starts kneeing..... i'm gonna work on that... but for now... i dont like 'em :p

P.S. on second thot… don’t smack me on da azz…San Shou Knees.... well sorta (http://www.cungle.com/clip_pics/pic_images/B2F2_9.jpg)

SanShou Guru

09-17-2002, 12:35 PM

There have been three amateur San Shou tournaments that allowed knees (so San Da rules) in the US so far. The two Kung Fu Super Star events in New Orleans and the Super Fights at Cung Le’s Event two months ago. To tell you how new knees are, Cung’s IKF world title fight in December last year was no knees and Rudi Ott’s last month had knees.

Knees are no big deal in San Shou because if you don’t want to use them it is pretty easy to stop them under San Shou rules. They grab your around the neck you grab them around the stomach and go belly to belly then start walking. Try it and see how hard it is to land a hard knee. It does make wrestling more interesting because the “Sprawl” throw defense can get you killed with knees. It makes you pay more attention. We have started incorporating knees but mostly defense against now until we have time to really concentrate on incorporating them into our system.

Shaolin Tiger it’s nice to hear from you again. How is your wife doing? Julio Trujillo is starting a Baltimore San Shou team I can get you his contact info if you want.

ShaolinTiger00

09-17-2002, 12:43 PM

Hey momma..

but I know what a knee looks/and feels like and I was aquainted with it during a san shou match… san da... san shou... whatever...

Doesn't make it a legal technique. whatever - If you don't know the rules, you'll be in for a long night...

Sanshou in Baltimore.. Do you know my friends Jullio Trujilo or Aaron Honeycut? I'll never forget the bus ride we took when we traveled to fight at Shawn Liu's US open in '98. At every truck stop we'd get out stretch our legs and beat on each other! Good guys and good fighters.

How about Richard Pritchett? Haven't seen him in a few years.

SanShou Guru

09-17-2002, 12:50 PM

I know both Honeycutt and Julio quite well. We have fought with them and against them and I have judged with Honeycutt. My wife, who is a PT, worked on him during the ’95 worlds when he had five Wars in the Ring.

I’ve help in Julio’s corner and have let him borrow equipment for fights and gone out after events with him (well as far as dinner he was on his own after that). Prichet I sort of know but he is pretty quiet and I have never really talked to him.

fa_jing

09-17-2002, 12:52 PM

Well, I've seen that you can be thrown if you try to knee to the midsection. Although, they are devastating if they land. But what about Knees to the thighs? I think they are very low risk and really mess up your opponent's clinch game.

lkfmdc

09-17-2002, 12:52 PM

San Shou with knees? NYKK does not train or fight with knees :)

(yes, insert large amount of sarcasm here)

but they are pretty recently added to US competitions, though King of San Da had knees starting in 99 or so

Against Thailand, with knees and elbows, China and San Da have still won the majority of fights, Muay Thai is very open to throws, though of course I still wish the Chinese trained the knee more

ShaolinTiger00

09-17-2002, 12:53 PM

SS Guru,

Always a pleasure to "see" you sir. I'm doing well. Practicing judo and bjj daily and trying to run whenever possible.

My wife is well. thank you.

Actually I'm going to see Jullio & co. this fall. Mike Barry is hosting a seminar in Oct. Shawn Liu is coming in and is going to be teaching some things. Gary has asked me to come in and give some demonstrations of judo throwing as it pertains to sanshou for some of the young fighters.

I stand corrected about amateur/knee comment but that has not been the standard format.

SanShou Guru

09-17-2002, 12:59 PM

ST sounds like a good seminar. I’m really glad Julio and Co are starting a team we need more. I would not say you stand corrected just updated. Be careful of Honeycutt’s elbow. He needs to get surgery on it but, he wont. It goes out of joint frequently but you know what a tough dog he is so he just works through it.

ShaolinTiger00

09-17-2002, 01:00 PM

Mr. Ross,

NYKK trains sanshou with knees because of the cross over of fighters into muay thai fights correct?

I think that it is a good thing. Fighting in both formats is good as well as using knees in self defense situations.

Do you ever have problems with your fighters using illegal techniques out of pure reflex? (ex. knee in san shou or double-leg in muay thai?)

lkfmdc

09-17-2002, 01:09 PM

We have links back to the "lei tai" or Kuoshu fights that had knees and also did them in traditional, we fight Muay Thai because we can knee, not the reverse (ie learned to knee so we could fight Muay Thai)

Richard Acosta picked up the Muay Thai champion of Uzbekistan over his head in his last Muay Thai fight, remembered it was a Thai fight, and put him down nice and gentle :) I still think the guy was crapping in his pants though after that :p

ShaolinTiger00

09-17-2002, 01:21 PM

Speaking of the leitai, is it going away? Is there more pressure to have a flat ring w/line of boundary. In one sense I like the addded challenge and its historical value but as a judo player I've come to look at throwing and falling in a whole new way and I think its a very unneeded risk in a modern combat sport.

The thought of breaking my back on the edge of the leitai during a pickup makes me cringe.

lkfmdc

09-17-2002, 01:24 PM

I think that as long as the worlds are done with a Lei Tai and now the San Shou world cup is also, there will be lei tai competitions, in a way it is good, different kind of skill, making for more rounded San Shou athletes, sure, it's different, A LOT I think, but I still put my people on it a few times a year

Liokault

09-17-2002, 02:05 PM

You cant get rid of the lei tai....its fundimental!!!

lkfmdc

09-18-2002, 10:31 AM

my prediction, in 10 years they won't be using the Lei Tai anymore

fgxpanzerz

09-18-2002, 08:33 PM

"Hey, look at me! I'm a Communist country that can hand-pick the people that fight here and we fought on Chinese soil with Chinese judges and hey, I forgot to mention we're a notoriously racist culture. And we WON those fights! Imagine that!"

The United States also has a notoriously racist culture.

SanHeChuan

09-18-2002, 10:14 PM

We have learned to ue both elbows and knees in my San shou class, and I keep wondering where we would get to use them (i.e. what rules format). My instructor was a professional fighter and so he used and teaches elbows, knees other knock out techniques that seem to be against the rules that I have seen. He hasn't really made a distinction between San shou and San da. Do different rules define the differences between them? He said they were the same thing.

I hear san shou is on TV in china quite a bit.

While there are certainly racist (both individuals and groups) with in the united states of America, we as a nation define our "superiority" by ideological and economical factor not race. Our diversity as a nation makes racism at a national level (conciseness) near impossible, as we can not define our selves by any one race.

Merryprankster

09-19-2002, 03:12 AM

The United States also has a notoriously racist culture

Uh, yeah. Sure. Compared to what? I've been around a bit. We actually live in a pretty good society for that kind of thing. The things I've heard overseas about other races and ethnicities have made me blush. Ever heard about racism in Germany or France? These supposedly enlightened countries have just as bad--if not worse--problems. Those Serbs and Croats and Albanians really know how to get along--not to mention the tribal differences in Central Asia that span the boundaries of "the Stans." How about the Hakka, the Palestinians, the Jews. The Basques have had a grand time, as have the Ainu. Let's not forget the Armenians, who endured some of the worst atrocities in history.

Anyway, some points:

1. I already apologized for my bone-headed phrasing, and explained myself.

2. Pointing out that the U.S. only serves the "glass houses and throwing stones," aspect. It doesn't refute the original assertion. This has more to do with rhetoric, and nothing at all to do with whether or not I believe the statement to be true.

To reiterate: Mea culpa. I should have been choosier with my words, and was so in subsequent posting. Insular thinking was closer to what I was aiming for and happenned to choose a particularly ****-poor wording. Feel free to attribute it to a Freudian slip and execute some pop psychology to determine that I actually have a deeply held loathing of all non-WASP's and should be burned at the stake or hanged from a yardarm. :rolleyes:

Frank Exchange

09-19-2002, 04:17 AM

Mr. Prankster, I would like to say that your erudition and integrity never ceases to amaze me.

And to think that you are a dry-humper too ;)

fgxpanzerz

09-19-2002, 06:30 AM

everyone in the United States is VERY race conscious. Black this, white that, asian...whatever. If we weren't all racist...why have this terms such as black? All of our presidents have been white males. The only time they have actors that aren't white are when the movies are heavily stereotyped such as Jet Li's stupid movies and Martin Lawrence.

guohuen

09-19-2002, 07:04 AM

The problem I believe is the them and us attitude in general.

CD Lee

09-19-2002, 08:43 AM

This may be a bitter pill, but rascism is a part of human nature. It has spanned every time period of history that we know about, and is rampant worldwide today in a modern society.

We must seek to diminish rascism, but it will always be there to flare up again.

It is not about color, but about differences. Humans distinguish differences naturally. Fat kids in school, ugly kids, kids with glasses, and any other things we can find. It does not change as adults. If color is the same, then it is social status, religion, education levels, income levels, sex, blue collar, white collar, types of cars, neiborhoods, etc, etc.

The same goes for tendencies towards envy, jelously, power, lust and greed. These things have to be restrained and controlled, but will not be eliminated completely.

That is why we are not dogs. We can control our instinctive traits.

Liokault

09-19-2002, 09:03 AM

Why has this thread turned to talking about racism? I belive that all most every one is racist to a degree but what has that got to do with san shou?

Also after a run in with the local christian chinese group my teacher has turned really anti chinese dispite me telling him it was because they were christian ant because they were chinese!!!

TaiChiStorm

09-19-2002, 09:35 AM

Have you ever realised ,that there was NEVER a real Kung Fu guy performing in UFC???
WHY????
Because presenting your style on a highly official "tournament" AGAINST OTHER STYLES just to see which is the best style is against the spirit of Kung Fu.
The aim of OUR MA is not to be a good fighter.
I SAY anyone who fought in UFC claiming to be a Kung Fu figter, should stay away from our style.

San Shou, I would say, is not a traditional style. It is the "Chinese kick-boxing sport". I think it is a good experience to do it ,even if you are in a traditional style.

Ford Prefect

09-19-2002, 09:37 AM

"The aim of OUR MA is not to be a good fighter. "

So what's the goal of a real martial art?

lkfmdc

09-19-2002, 10:41 AM

I'm sorry, this is gonna come off as harsh, but what new age commune did you just crawl out of??

The fact that anyone can believe that Chinese martial arts are somehow some sort of "feel good" health exercise just shows that you can sell any amount of BS and someone will buy it...

- "Because presenting your style on a highly official "tournament" AGAINST OTHER STYLES just to see which is the best style is against the spirit of Kung Fu." -

Sorry dude, you haven't a clue, really, you do realize that for most of our history, , we were FIGHTING arts and we fought eachother dude

that is before some instructors figured out there were "hippies" like you that would buy into TCMA as some form of yoga and pay for it!!!

For MOST of our history Chinese martial arts has ALWAYS been my style vs your style and challenges, public tournaments, etc have always been part of the tradition

I guess you never heard of "da lei tai"? Or Wong Yan Lam and his stage in Canton? Or Fong Sai Yuk and his stage fights? Or how about the national tournament in Nanjing in 1927?

- "The aim of OUR MA is not to be a good fighter." -

Sorry, the aim of REAL Chinese martial art IS to be a good fighter. Apparently the aim of your art is to eat a lot of granola and become one with your center....

Stuff like this makes me sick, you are so deluded and out of touch with reality it is scary

Suntzu

09-19-2002, 11:47 AM

Apparently the aim of your art is to eat a lot of granola and become one with your center.... :D :D :D :D

Merryprankster

09-19-2002, 01:16 PM

Liokault,

it turned into a thread on racism because I made a stupid comment that I shouldn't have, earlier. I should have chosen a different phrasing, but instead used "One of the most racist," as opposed to something like "one of the most insular," when I discussed Chinese culture. I think the history of CMA kind of demonstrates there is an emphasis on "outsiders," and "insiders," in Chinese culture. I don't necessarily believe this translates to racism per se, but more, as guohen pointed out, a recognition of differences and sameness--us vs. them.

Unfortunately, fgxpanzerz seems intent on pointing out that U.S. culture isn't perfect either. Somehow that is supposed to refute the argument that Chinese culture tends to be insular. We could go round in circles about all our presidents having been white males (like this is surprising or something--remember that minorities and women have only been enfranchised for REAL relatively recently), but what, really is the point. What woman has been president of France? Name me a black prime minister of Britain. How about a Hakka Premier of China or an Asian Russian President. Oh... gee... I'm sorry that hasn't happenned yet either. How about a white Prime Minister of Japan. A Turkish Pres in Germany? Oops... that hasn't happenned either...

I don't mind the admission of imperfections, but get off the high horse already, and stop acting like every bad thing race related or otherwise emanates from the U.S. Indefensible crap.

Done now. Won't respond here on this issue again--not that it matters, but it'll keep ME from getting in a tizzy :)

lkfmdc

09-19-2002, 01:27 PM

Modern Chinese society still maintains a distinction between "Han" and "minorities"

There will never be a white prime minister of Japan since Japanese citizenship is reserved for Japanese ONLY, and you can't be naturalized or even born into citizenship, ask the Koreans whose families have been in Japan for up to 5 generations and who still have to apply for Korean citizenship or be "stranded"

but let's keep discussions focussed on granola, seeking inner peace and the sound of one hand wacking

Ralek

09-19-2002, 02:01 PM

Hi Shoalin Tiger. Do you remember when i did the elbow-knee escape to you when we were fighting? I totally elbow-knee escaped you.

Your double leg takedown was totally neutralized by my unstoppable BJJ elbow-knee escape.

Do you remember when you through a roundhouse that him my leg and it lifted my off the ground and i spun around? That was funny becuase it was so hard i spun around when it hit me. But then i did the Super Kick. You did the Iron Broom Sweep but i did the BJJ Iron Broom block to stop it.

And then i punched you in the face and i cut my hand on your tooth and my arm was kicked by a roundhouse and it cut open a cut on my arm when i blocked it and there was blood everywhere and then you started spitting blood out of your mouth and the blood was getting all over the grass. And then the bicycle police came but the bicyble police road right by and didn't even notice the blood.

If anyone wants to fight just make a post. I will fight anyone hwo lives wihting a reasonable distnace. But i mgiht not be able to travel depending.

ewallace

09-19-2002, 02:10 PM

Will you be wanting to use the vibrating controller or the classic controller in your death match Ralek?

Xebsball

09-19-2002, 02:11 PM

LOL @ Ralek

lkfmdc

09-19-2002, 02:19 PM

shouldn't Ralek be in his parent's basement doing his homework? School started already didn't it?

ewallace

09-19-2002, 02:29 PM

Nah, Ralek is recovering from a "broken neck".

Ralek

09-19-2002, 03:43 PM

My neck did not break. I just jave a small tear in my spinal cord but it's not big deal.

And this is not a video game. This is a real challenge match fight that acutally happened and Shaolin Tiger can tell you it is real and some people on the forum know shaolin tiger in real lfie.

Shoalin Tiger really did do an Iron Broom sweep. And there really was blood everywhere. And i realluy did totally elbow-knee escape shoalin tiger. I totally pulled guard on him and he did a chinese pressure point attack but it didn't work. I still have 2 scars from the fight. One scar on my hand and one scar on my chest. It's kind of like the video tame Street Fighter 2 Turbo where Sagat gets a scar on his chest from his fight wiht Ryu. Buy my scar is not that huge. Scars are cool. I want to get a scar on my face. That would be really cool.

Ralek

09-19-2002, 03:54 PM

Shoalin Tiger. We really should fight again. It's been over a year and i am sure you have improved since then.

But i've been doing some special training myself so it will be a totally different level than last time.

Ralek

09-19-2002, 04:01 PM

I think most peole don't realize the enormaty of the fight between shoalin tiger and me. I have a scar on my chest forever from the fight. The epic battle was so huge and so bloody that police were called and there were all sorts of advanced moves being thrown and that round house that cut open my arm. There was super Iron Broom sweep and i threw 1 Super Kick during the fight but it didn't work.

Chang Style Novice

09-19-2002, 04:14 PM

...and the sky went dark, as if day had turned to night, and cows gave sour milk, and the crops failed never to return, and a rooster was born with the face of David Hasselhoff, and the sound of the clashing of swords kept infants crying all through the night, and the ground shook from the exploding bombs, and the heavens rained down rusty metal, hot coals and broken glass, and little old ladies began to f@rt Zyklon B gas, and every musical instrument in the state simultaneously went out of tune, and the noise made windows break as far away as Budapest, and flowers bloomed with petals of venomous fangs, and sasquatch lost all his hair and took the name 'John Ashcroft', and all the blond children cried tears of blood, and all the brunette children cried tears of fortified malt liqour, and encyclopedias spontaneously burst into flames, and donut holes ran for the protection of their donuts, and...

just a minute, I need to feed the dogs.

lkfmdc

09-19-2002, 06:15 PM

is it possible his special BJ training is how he hurt his neck?? :o

Ralek

09-19-2002, 06:16 PM

Acutally the fight was very similar to the video game Stree Fighter Alpha 2 when you play as Sagat in the final level against Ryu.

I think Street Fighter Alpha 2 is better than Street Fighter Turbo becuase Alpha has a wider range of styles to train against so you will be more prepared when you have to do it for real like i did.

joedoe

09-19-2002, 06:25 PM

Originally posted by lkfmdc
is it possible his special BJ training is how he hurt his neck?? :o

Yes, I think Ralek practices his BJs all the time. Really, when you give that many BJs you are bound to hurt your neck.

Frank Exchange

09-20-2002, 03:17 AM

>> Name me a black prime minister of Britain. <<

I realise that you were making a larger point about the US in comparison to the rest of the world, but, pedant that I am, I couldnt leave it. ;)

The UK managed to have the one of the first, if not the first women as prime minister (not sure whether Benizeer Bhutto was first in India? She also was quite hot, which Margaret Thatcher most definitely was not...)

The reason there has not been a black PM is more to do with demographics than anything else.

The simple fact is that less than 3% of the population of England (rather than the UK) is of any type of minority, be it of afro-carribean, asian or other origin, and the largest of these minorities is in fact Irish, with asian coming up fast on the inside.

We have had black and asian Members of Parliament and Ministers, many Scottish, Welsh and Irish MPs on both right and left, and even openly gay Cabinet Ministers.

These demographic proportions will no doubt change as our immigration does, but I personally think it more likely that we will see an Asian PM before we see a black one.

Not really making much of a point here. It just surprised me when I learned that the minority populations of my country were so, well, minor.

Merryprankster

09-20-2002, 03:44 AM

Precisely :) So then, is the opportunity for racial tension ;) And yet--as I recall--there is rather a lot of it in certain blue-collar areas w/regards to West Indian immigrants, is there not? Educate me if I'm wrong please about the West Indian immigrant bit...
Anyway, I smell what you're cooking (Callalloo perhaps?)--and agree!

lkfmdc was kind enough to point out what I was really getting at, and I know you understand that.

Bhutto was (is) Pakistani, I believe.

CD Lee

09-20-2002, 06:15 AM

Ralek, in all honestly, you should spend some time and learn to spell better. Maybe you are just in a hurry. As a young man, this will do more for you than martial arts to further your quality of life in the next 20 years.

I know the board is the board, and also very informal, but you will eventually perform as you practice. We all make mistakes, but think about it.

KC Elbows

09-20-2002, 07:23 AM

Ralek, with the virtua fighter series, the Dead or Alive games, heck, even Soul Caliber, your Street Fighter method is behind the times.

With your impractical button combinations and your tradition of viewing fighting in 2 dimensions, the modern gamer would circle and destroy at will, until he or she were ready to perform a fatality.

apoweyn

09-20-2002, 07:25 AM

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
...and the sky went dark, as if day had turned to night, and cows gave sour milk, and the crops failed never to return, and a rooster was born with the face of David Hasselhoff, and the sound of the clashing of swords kept infants crying all through the night, and the ground shook from the exploding bombs, and the heavens rained down rusty metal, hot coals and broken glass, and little old ladies began to f@rt Zyklon B gas, and every musical instrument in the state simultaneously went out of tune, and the noise made windows break as far away as Budapest, and flowers bloomed with petals of venomous fangs, and sasquatch lost all his hair and took the name 'John Ashcroft', and all the blond children cried tears of blood, and all the brunette children cried tears of fortified malt liqour, and encyclopedias spontaneously burst into flames, and donut holes ran for the protection of their donuts, and...

just a minute, I need to feed the dogs.

holy crap, chang. i think that's the funniest thing i've ever seen.

stuart b.

Chang Style Novice

09-20-2002, 07:26 AM

I play backgammon against fully resisting opponents. Ralek will crumble before the devastating effect of my double-six roll technique!

And if he adapts to that, I have crosstraining in Scrabble that...well, lets just say it won't be pretty!

-----------------

x posted with Ap.

Thanks, Ap! I knew all those years of smoking pot and rereading "The Book of the Subgenius" would pay off someday.

KC Elbows

09-20-2002, 07:29 AM

Ralek, you are a checkers player in a Risk world.

ShaolinTiger00

09-20-2002, 07:35 AM

Ralek's yarns would make Herman Melville blush..:o

For the newbies lets bring out the lures and trolling motor..

Do you remember when i did the elbow-knee escape to you when we were fighting?
-Yes I do. But then you stopped. You got to the guard and did the "lay and pray" and didn't do another technique. You had a perfect opporitunity for a sweep or a submission an you did nothing against a guy who didn't know jack about bjj. - you blew it.

Do you remember when you through a roundhouse that him my leg and it lifted my off the ground and i spun around? That was funny becuase it was so hard i spun around when it hit me
-Like it was yesteday :D

But then i did the Super Kick. -Fiction. You never kicked me, probably becuase you didn't engage me one on our feet and I had to chase you around the park you'r heels must have ben tired from the backpeddling.

And then i punched you in the face and i cut my hand on your tooth and my arm was kicked by a roundhouse and it cut open a cut on my arm when i blocked it and there was blood everywhere and then you started spitting blood out of your mouth and the blood was getting all over the grass. And then the bicycle police came but the bicyble police road right by and didn't even notice the blood.

-This is just classic Ralek at his best. A mix of fact and fiction that boils just beneath the surface. Ex. Blood. a tiny speck becomes a battlefield soaked.

While on your back, (the worst position to punch from), you "tapped" me in the corner of my mouth causing a very insignifigant scrape on the inside of my lip. I immediately tapped you right back on the chin to remind you that you weren't the only one who could have thrown a punch if that was the way we were headed. You didn't throw another... wonder why?

I totally pulled guard on him and he did a chinese pressure point attack but it didn't work.

No dim-mak, I just grabbed a rib and squeezed to see if he'd bail from his position. Originally I has my hand around his throat but since we were not really fighting I moved it as to not hurt him. (now looking back that would have been a perfect opporitunity to armbar me, but it never came.)

I still have 2 scars from the fight
-My apologies. Thats the bad thing about kicking in shoes. Try cocoa butter..:)

This is a real challenge match fight that acutally happened and Shaolin Tiger can tell you it is real

-ShaolinTiger will tell you that he originally went out there to snap a sucka in half, but met a young man who wasn't all that bad and they agreed to go hard, yet controlled. I also leared a lesson - If you're going to go out to a "challenge match" either punish the man or don't fight. If you pick the middle there will be room for your opponent to disrespect you.

Shoalin Tiger. We really should fight again. It's been over a year and i am sure you have improved since then.

-We didn't fight to begin with. If that were the case that thigh kick would have hit your kneecap and I would have been looking for it across the park like Tiger Wood's caddie looking for a par4.
Improved? Yep. I've learned an amazing amount about grappling.
Do I want to fight? Sure. There are many grappling tournaments in our area. Pick one and I'll be there. Will I meet you in the park again? Nah. I went there once and found out what it was about. You need to find a wing chun guy or a praying mantis stylist. I'm MMA. besides, you called me a "kung fu hero". Why would I change that?

i threw 1 Super Kick during the fight but it didn't work.
-Why break character and start telling the truth?

From now on I think I'm going to adopt Ralek's philosophy of taking elements of truth and turning them into epic tales!
Did I mention how bloody the place was? I slipped twice in the grass and the ducks were actually covered as well.

Take care buddy!:)

Chang Style Novice

09-20-2002, 08:36 AM

Oh, yeah, I forgot to ask:

What on Satan's hot-pink earth is a "Super Kick"?

Frank Exchange

09-20-2002, 08:37 AM

Merryprankster sez:

>> Precisely So then, is the opportunity for racial tension And yet--as I recall--there is rather a lot of it in certain blue-collar areas w/regards to West Indian immigrants, is there not? Educate me if I'm wrong please about the West Indian immigrant bit... <<

There are definitely still a few problem areas, but I think less so with the West Indian populations. Most of that immigration was just after the war, and there has been time for two or more subsequent generations of people who grew up as Britons, and consider themselves to be British. They would not remotely consider themselves to be West Indian, unlike their parents or grandparents, who probably still would.

We did have riots in Bradford not so long ago, which has a very high Asian population, and incidents of deplorable racial violence, even murder, the Steven Lawrence case, for example. The country ain't perfect by any means, but, is hopefully getting better.

>> Anyway, I smell what you're cooking (Callalloo perhaps?)--and agree! <<

As I do with you.

>> Bhutto was (is) Pakistani, I believe. <<

You are correct, curse my enfeebled brain. But she was still hotter than Margaret Thatcher, I got that bit right at least :)

ShaolinTiger00

09-20-2002, 08:41 AM

What do trolls and race have to do with San Shou?

apoweyn

09-20-2002, 08:53 AM

ooh... i know this one... when it's a door!

...

no, that's not right.

lkfmdc

09-20-2002, 09:52 AM

we are still waiting for the legendary clash of the titans, Ralek vs Marvin Perry.... I think Marvin said he has a few minutes during his lunch hour for the fight :)

fgxpanzerz

09-20-2002, 09:59 AM

I started this whole discussion on racism. who cares about san shou...keep talking about interesting controversial topics.

Once, my mom told my little sister never to date anyone black because all black men have big *****es and just want sex. My friend's mom also told her something like this. Interesting, right?

lkfmdc

09-20-2002, 10:03 AM

do you know what "projection" is??

Chang Style Novice

09-20-2002, 10:13 AM

"we are still waiting for the legendary clash of the titans, Ralek vs Marvin Perry.... I think Marvin said he has a few minutes during his lunch hour for the fight "

I'd pay a nickel per second to watch that fight!

And I've got a dime ready, just tell me where to mail it.

jungle-mania

09-20-2002, 11:30 AM

So will the fight be between BJJ and sanshou for Ralek and Perry respectively? And also can you guys film it and put it up on the forum. I will definitely like to see it.

SanShou Guru

09-20-2002, 11:59 AM

Perry vs. relek war would not even be as close as the 1991 US vs. Iraq war. As far as getting that fight on film we would have to see if we could borrow the 1 million frame per second camera the military uses to film explosions. Then we would have a chance to get it on tape.

As much fun as it would be it was never a serious offer. If relek wants to fight Marvin all he would need to do is:

a) Train under a real fighting coach.
b) Amass about 15 wins as an amateur.
c) Win about 5 fights as a pro.

and the most important thing:

d) Travel back in time and be born as somebody else.

If he can do these things then he can fight Marvin Perry. Of course he could always come up to Boston and ask to be a sparring partner. I would enjoy the break form that job.

ShaolinTiger00

09-20-2002, 01:57 PM

Guru,

Isn't Marvin slated to fight Tim Shelton soon?

No offense to Tim (I know he's been doing well as an amateur)but that fight seems incredibly lopsided in Marvin's favor.

Why fight a tomato can when he could be looking towards k-1 or thai boxing events?

SanShou Guru

09-20-2002, 02:02 PM

Well last I heard it was Tim and at least he will take the fight. There are other people we are looking at for fights next year that will be more of a test but this fight should still be fun for few minutes it lasts. They were looking for a San Shou fighter so the K-1 guys would not work. There is still a chance that they can get the Egyption Champion for Marvin and that would be a better fight. There was some talk of Guy Metzer (sp) but I don't think that was real but would have been good.

We'll see. Are you going?

ShaolinTiger00

09-20-2002, 02:25 PM

I won't make it to MS for the Art of War.

Perry vs. Metzger would be great. Marvin would amaze alot of people who have no idea about san da and would watch as a popular name opponent would get thumped.

Guy would bring the people, but Marvin would make them take notice.

btw: always wondered about guys like Marvin, Rudi, etc who are moving into the pro ranks, but don't have their own gym. How do they support themselves and still train?

lkfmdc

09-20-2002, 02:25 PM

they contacted Godzilla, but he said he had a prior comittment, likely story, he was SCARED :)

Ralek

09-20-2002, 06:10 PM

Shaolin Tiger!!!! I did throw a super kick. I think i might have actually thrown 2 super kicks. When we were fighting there was a time were i picked up my front leg and did a little kick. But i don't know how to kick so it wasn't much and that might be why you don't remember it.

And Shaolin Tiger. I think you are forgetting about how i showd mercy on you about 3 times when i could have easily killed you. You got really tired and had to take rest breaks every 5 minutes. If it were real i would have done a fatality when you got tired. Flawless victory!!!!!

And at that time I had no grappling training. When i pulled guard i didn't know what to do. At that time my only traning was just rolling with friends a few times who were clueless about grappling themselves.

I have technically defeated you 2 or 3 times for the two or three rest breaks you had to take. Just remember how i spared you life 3 times in a row. Most BJJ fighters would have killed thier opponent and finished them off with a BJJ move.

We really need to fight again Shaolin Tiger. I'm serious. I have totally new moves that you have never seen before.