Do you think the reverse punch is inefficient?

[SevenStar]

if so, please explain.

[gazza99]

Its simply not economical, I commented on it to the last TKD intructor I met, who said he wouldnt use it in a fight, but would revert to more of a jab, which was very weak when he showed it. But right after I spoke with him about it I watched him teach his class, he had them do the reverse punch in the air hundreds of times. You fight like you train, and every guy ive sparred that has trained this punch extensively has always drawn his hand to his waist before and after striking, which always gives me an easy opening to take them out.

If you think you are sacrificing speed for power with this punch, think again. I have yet to meet anyone who could outpunch me with a reverse punch. My one-inch punch is much better, and more efficient, of course it took more years to develop.

Gary

[rogue]

It's just another tool in the box, sometimes it's the most efficient tool other times not.

When you say reverse punch what do you mean? In my school our reverse punch just means that if your left leg is forward then the reverse punch is thrown with the right. In fundamentals practice and kata it's thrown from either the hip or chest level and we will use the returning hand, but that's just one hand technique out of many. During sparring it's thrown from where ever the hand is which usually means with guard high then like a boxers cross, with some more traditional guards the reverse punch fist comes out from in front of the body at about low chest height and hits mostly as a verticle punch, but never withdrawn to the hip. I guess sparring just about every class has kept us from falling into the hip chamber trap that Gary and others have described seeing.

On the street shooting from the hip can be handy, not every fight starts with you in your best fighting stance with your hands up.

PS Gary, I've been looking for a Tai Chi school and have yet to find one that spars. So you can add three to your running total of non-sparring TCC schools. Now I have met several tai chi people that spar outside of their schools and have even worked out with them on push hands and sparring.

[dre]

It isn't.

it is usefull when in the Den Shi Bon stance, in the close range, and you have one of his arms trapped. You must be with his side to make that move work,

. . .But I do this one a lot. I find it very usefull.

It's just another tool.

[Royal Dragon]

If your opponent is punching off his left, I step to the outside of him and outside block with my left. At the exact same time I fire the reverse punch, from a chamber into his ribs.

Since I'm comming from the side of them, my left arm is able to cover both of the opponents arms so I'm safe.

Since my reverse punch is comming from a chamber, it is UNDER thier veiw and they never see it comming, especially since they are watching my blocking hand in fear that it's directed to thier face next.

It's also fun to see how fast you can go from hitting the ribs back up to chamber and then to the face ( I use a nonstop circular motion and never really rechamber though). Timming helps too. sometimes it's better to pause a second to let the pain in the ribs sink in a bit, so they try to cover, thus opening the face even more.

Never try to do this the Tae Kwon Do way though, it leaves you way to vulnerale and open.

[dnc101]

Originally posted by gazza99
If you think you are sacrificing speed for power with this punch, think again. Gary

In the external arts, speed is the primary component of power. Anything that inhibits speed robs power. As for punching from a chambered position, that prohibits quickness. A punch should be thrown from point of origin. If you can't get enough power in your punch from where you are, use another weapon. Drawing back first is wasted motion and a major telegraph. Rechambering after the punch leaves no guard, you are open (as g99 also pointed out).

There are also anatomical reasons the reverse punch is inefficient. The punch gets its' name from the fact that it traditionally starts from the chamber with the palm up. Then as the elbow clears the body the fist turns over so the palm is down, so it is reversed. If you do that slowly and watch your forearm you will see that the radius and ulna (the two bones in your forearm) rotate around each other. The radius (on the thumb side) sort of wraps over th ulna. This is not as strong a mechanical allignment as if the rotation were stoped with the fist in the vertical position (vertical punch).

Another problem with this punch arises when it is directed upward, say to the chin of a taller opponent, or diagonally as in a cross punch. Experiment with this and you will note that often due to the relative angles of fist to target the first two knuckles are taken out of the lead. This means you are likely to land the punch with either the fingers or the last two (smaller) knuckles. That, of course, is more likely to injure you than your opponent.

Done as a straight punch, from point of origin, this punch has its' uses. But by and large I prefer the vertical punch. I suppose there may be some uses for chambering as well, but I don't like to do it.

[gazza99]

-Thanks Rogue! Ill add those 3 to my tally!

-Thanks for further explaining my rants DNC101!

Royal dragon:

RE:"Since my reverse punch is comming from a chamber, it is UNDER thier veiw and they never see it comming, especially since they are watching my blocking hand in fear that it's directed to thier face next."

Have you ever heard the phrase "assumption is the mother of all fu(kups?" If you can teach me how to make one arm invisible please describe it, otherwise I can see this move coming a mile away! Usually I just plow through the blocking arm attacking the person while their "under" view reverse punch is chambered, then I pummel them untill they hit the ground since people who insist on using the reverse punch have zero structure and sensitivity.
Oh, and thats if I give them energy to play with. If I suspect the person has the skills, then they wont get the chance to do what you described anyhow.

regards
Gary

[dnc101]

Originally posted by gazza99
If you think you are sacrificing speed for power with this punch, think again. Gary

In the external arts, speed is the primary component of power. Anything that inhibits speed robs power. As for punching from a chambered position, that prohibits quickness. A punch should be thrown from point of origin. If you can't get enough power in your punch from where you are, use another weapon. Drawing back first is wasted motion and a major telegraph. Rechambering after the punch leaves no guard, you are open (as g99 also pointed out).

There are also an anatomical reasons the reverse punch is inefficient. The punch gets its' name from the fact that it traditionally starts from the chamber with the palm up. Then as it clears the body the fist turns over so the palm is down, so it is reversed. If you do that slowly and watch your forearm you will see that the radius and ulna (the two bones in your forearm) rotate around each other. The radius (on the thumb side) sort of wraps over th ulna. This is not as strong a mechanical allignment as if the rotation were stoped with the fist in the vertical position (vertical punch).

Another problem with this punch arises when it is directed upward, say to the chin of a taller opponent, or diagonally as in a cross punch. Experiment with this and you will note that often due to the relative angles of fist to target the first two knuckles are taken out of the lead. This means you are likely to land the punch with either the fingers or the last two (smaller) knuckles. That, of course, is more likely to injure you than your opponent.

Done as a straight punch, from point of origin, this punch has its' uses. But by and large I prefer the vertical punch. I suppose there may be some uses for chambering as well, but I don't like to do it.

[dnc101]

I edited a typo and got reposted.

Gazza, what RD is reffering to is what we call an obscure zone. The weapon is deployed from a position where it isn't readily seen. For example, an uppercut that contours close to the opponents body and under his guard travels in an obscure zone- his view of the weapon is at least partially blocked by his own chin and possibly his guard. Of course, you can still readily see his body allignment and observe his shoulder drop and get a pretty good idea what's comeing. Same with that chambered fist. You know it's there and generally where it's aimed.

As for the fight you describe, RD, I'll quote Remmington from the movie 'The Ghost and the Darkness':"They got a sayin' in prize fighting, 'Everyone's got a plan till they've been hit.' "

[SevenStar]

I've never had a problem with the punch. Admittedly, it is easier to see than the vertical punch, but I've seen no real difference in power. As for the chamber, I've never chambered all the way to my hip even though it's trained that way. So, you have the same reservations about a boxer's straight right? (aside from chambering at the hip)

[dnc101]

Yes, I do have the same reservations about this punch. Boxers wrap their hands withtape untill they are hard as a rock, and they wear heavy padded gloves. But when they try to throw the same punch on the street, they often prove my point by breaking their hands. I recall someone posting a link on that topic a while back. I'll see if I can find it.

[lotusleaf]

It's just part of the many punches that you and I learn and it's a useful tool. Just like rogue, the reverse punch to me is thrown with the rear arm. I use it for combos, but not too much since left arm speed isn't up to par w/ a lot of my other classmates. I fight w/ my good side forward so my left arm is weaker. I like throwing rear hooks though and uppercuts but it's mainly used for blocking and redirecting.

[dnc101]

and if I could remember who originally posted it I'd give them credit. Any how, here it is:

www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/evolution.html

[Crimson Phoenix]

Gazza...I know this kind of thread will always display some pros and cons, dependending on peoples's style, background, body type, sensibility and 1000000 other factors...
And indeed, you seem some who like the reverse punch, and some who don't...both come out with sensible arguments too...
But there's something that bugged me in your post, it's the presence of both:
"assumption is the mother of all fu(kups?" and "people who insist on using the reverse punch have zero structure and sensitivity"...Now isn't that an enormous assumption (and dangerous one as well)? I mean...there HAS to be some people proficient with their reverses punches and with sensitivity and structure...xingyi's pau and beng quan are technically reverse punches...

[Merryprankster]

dnc101,

I've been round and round about this issue. Since nobody's actually looked into it for real, I don't think we can really conclude anything. The best we can do is offer some possibilities and say we don't know what the answer is. Here are the possibilities I can think of, along with my own comments, not that they matter:

1. The palms down straight punch is biomechanically less stable than the vertical punch. Show me where this has been demonstrated as true and I'll concede the point. One random article in black belt magazine, or "sifu said," doesn't cut it at all.

2. Choice of target. Hitting people in the head with a closed fist may be a bad idea. If you hit them on the top of the skull or on the forehead, you might break your hand. That's a pretty solid area.

3. Boxers may actually hit harder than most other artists. It's possible that a boxing punch is so biomechanically powerful that it has a tendency to overwhelm the ability of most people's bones to absorb stress. Plus, they learn to harness that power because they wear handwraps and gloves and don't know where their "limit," is, so to speak.

4. Improper hit. Anybody who hits a target full force, palms down, but lands with the last two knuckles instead of the first two, has a good chance of breaking their hand. I've hit the pads wrong with 4 oz grappling gloves before and it hurt. Don't give me a line about "training that out," of your system, although I agree that helps. Even if you're great at it, you have a good chance of screwing up. We're all human and make mistakes like that. Actually, now that I think about it, the guy didn't push into my punches properly to create a flat surface to strike, and it made my shots land on the last two knuckles, but same end result until I started compensating for that...

5. Boxers don't condition their hands right. Who knows? Might be, might not be. I couldn't tell you, and I doubt anybody could tell you for certain.

6. The person punching had brittle hands. Happens all the time.


What I'm really willing to bet, is that nobody has a clue what the right answer is on this issue, but many have ideas. I'm personally all for the idea of smacking a solid object with your fist being dangerous.

Lastly, one side note--boxers typically do NOT practice with their hands wrapped like they have it done in a pro fight--ie, it's not a mass of tape. Secondly, there are rules about taping that prevent it from being layered like a cast to create that kind of tape job. I personally believe it's just a piece of safety equipment, like my knee brace, or my shin pads or my cup. I throw a lot of punches at boxing, full power, into a bag or pads, or even my opponent. Not every shot is going to land perfectly. While the chance of serious injury is slight, the chance is finite and real and will PREVENT me from practicing for awhile, should I actually injure myself. This is a useful precaution, IMO to keep me practicing. That's just my opinion though. I realize that plenty of arts practice bareknuckle pad and bag work.

Then again--maybe they aren't hitting it as hard as a boxer does--but AGAIN, we don't actually know the answer to that.

And--I hate a reverse punch chambered at the hip. It can be absorbed rather easily with the elbow in a cover similar to a boxers, and now your head's open to counter punching. But that's just one side of the coin. Royal seems able to make it work fine.

[Royal Dragon]

gazza99,
The incomming "Reverse" punch is hidden by the opponets arm, and your body because you are off to the side of them. Your arm is HOLDING them in a turned position and slightly off balance. There only recourse would be to step away from the fight, "IF" they see it comming in time, which will be hard because it is hidden by the body's blind side, or cover up real quick, in whichcase i'm changing to a large swinging palm to the back of the head.

Also, don't forget the Kung Fu principal of block strike simutainiosly. There really wold be no time to counter it, sensitivity or not.

This weekend, ask about the principal of "One covers Two". That is esentialy what I'm doing.

As for the hand position, I hit with the center knuckel or the first two, never the little ones.

I tend to use the verital fist position myself as I feel stronger with it, but I can hit hard eitherway. :D

[dnc101]

]Originally posted by Merryprankster

"I've been round and round about this issue. Since nobody's actually looked into it for real, I don't think we can really conclude anything. The best we can do is offer some possibilities and say we don't know what the answer is. Here are the possibilities I can think of, along with my own comments, not that they matter:"

Actually Merry, you do have some good comments. I'd say the exchange of thoughtful views or points is a better use of this forum than what you usually find here, though sometimes the bs is entertaining.

"1. The palms down straight punch is biomechanically less stable than the vertical punch. Show me where this has been demonstrated as true and I'll concede the point. One random article in black belt magazine, or "sifu said," doesn't cut it at all."

You can feel the difference for yourself on the heavy bag. The vertical punch alligns the structure in your arm better, providing more backup mass behind the strike, and a stronger mechanical structure. Try it yourself and come to your own conclusions. And for some people the difference in structure doesn't matter that much. I'm relatively small, so I get as much backup mass into my strikes as possible.

"2. Choice of target. Hitting people in the head with a closed fist may be a bad idea. If you hit them on the top of the skull or on the forehead, you might break your hand. That's a pretty solid area."

I agree with you on that.

"3. Boxers may actually hit harder than most other artists. It's possible that a boxing punch is so biomechanically powerful that it has a tendency to overwhelm the ability of most people's bones to absorb stress. Plus, they learn to harness that power because they wear handwraps and gloves and don't know where their "limit," is, so to speak."

Again, I agree.

"4. Improper hit. Anybody who hits a target full force, palms down, but lands with the last two knuckles instead of the first two, has a good chance of breaking their hand. I've hit the pads wrong with 4 oz grappling gloves before and it hurt. Don't give me a line about "training that out," of your system, although I agree that helps. Even if you're great at it, you have a good chance of screwing up. We're all human and make mistakes like that. Actually, now that I think about it, the guy didn't push into my punches properly to create a flat surface to strike, and it made my shots land on the last two knuckles, but same end result until I started compensating for that..."

Agree to an extent. The strike may be improper and result in injury. But also consider that fights are dynamic, and a slight movemet of the target may result in the strike landing improperly. You experienced this with the pads. Think of the same thing if you strike at his jaw and his head drops and turns just enough...

"5. Boxers don't condition their hands right. Who knows? Might be, might not be. I couldn't tell you, and I doubt anybody could tell you for certain."

Most boxers I know are in better overall shape, including hand conditioning, than most martial artists. I'm not dissing boxers, just pointing out a weakness in their art when it is transfered to the street. Also, remember that many boxers started on the street and know the difference- they know how to hit without gloves. I'd never underestimate a boxer. And I certainly wouldn't try to break his hand with my head!

"6. The person punching had brittle hands. Happens all the time."

Mike Tyson had brittle hands?


"What I'm really willing to bet, is that nobody has a clue what the right answer is on this issue, but many have ideas. I'm personally all for the idea of smacking a solid object with your fist being dangerous."

The right answer is what works for you. I'm just answering the question from my own perspective. Never said you have to stop doing it your way, but threw out some considerations. In fact, I use the punch, but as a straight punch from point of origin. And usually to the lower ribs or abdomen. That puts those first two knuckles in the lead and fits them in the intercostal space, or drives down at or close to 45' for good effect. So the allignment issue is a trade off here.

"Lastly, one side note--boxers typically do NOT practice with their hands wrapped like they have it done in a pro fight--ie, it's not a mass of tape."

They use gloves.

"Secondly, there are rules about taping that prevent it from being layered like a cast to create that kind of tape job."

Maybe I should have said 'tight as a bankers butt.'

"I personally believe it's just a piece of safety equipment, like my knee brace, or my shin pads or my cup. "

That is true. The point is that this piece of safety equipment, by virtue of the fact that it protects your hand so well, may allow you to develope bad striking habbits.

"I throw a lot of punches at boxing, full power, into a bag or pads, or even my opponent. Not every shot is going to land perfectly. While the chance of serious injury is slight, the chance is finite and real and will PREVENT me from practicing for awhile, should I actually injure myself. This is a useful precaution, IMO to keep me practicing. That's just my opinion though. I realize that plenty of arts practice bareknuckle pad and bag work."

Again, I agree. Just keep in mind the points above and concentrate on good form, target and weapon selection when practicing.

"And--I hate a reverse punch chambered at the hip. It can be absorbed rather easily with the elbow in a cover similar to a boxers, and now your head's open to counter punching. But that's just one side of the coin. Royal seems able to make it work fine."

If you can make it work for you, that is what matters. But I wouldn't count on it working on everyone. If you want to see a boxer smile, just drop that fist to your side! And I'd never go in with a pre set plan.

[PLCrane]

RD,

I use it the same way you do - step to the outside and attack under the block. If they do happen to drop their elbow to protect the ribs, then I can just go over instead of under. The trick to getting power is to drive the punch with your hip, and let your rear foot be either light enough or far enough forward not to impede the hip.

Whether I punch palm up, down or vertical fist depends partly on how far away I'm punching. A close punch from a low position works better palm up. ****her away and the fist has to turn over. Going up along the chest to the bottom of the chin requires rotating the forearm the opposite direction (i.e. external rotation).

[rogue]

"The punch gets its' name from the fact that it traditionally starts from the chamber with the palm up."

Not quite, Gyaku-zuki (Japanese) or Gunnum So Bandae Jirugi( Korean) refer to the side that the punch is thrown from, not the reversing the hand position. In TKD the opposite of a reverse punch is an obverse punch and in karate a lunge punch (I prefer the Korean name), not a verticle punch.

[dnc101]

PLC, you make some excellent points on the use of this punch, whether from a chamber or from point of origin. I agree with you in principle. I just tend to focus more on the principles of allignment, and if necessary I tend to convert the strike rather than keep turning for more distance.

RD, your technique will work, which is probably why it is taught in most styles. But your opponent has many options to deal with it. For example, since sensitivity was brought up, let's say he's a sensitive type of bad @ss. He sees the block comeing and uses it as a bridge. Feeling your forward pressure, he yields, rolling back. As he does this his strike is converted to a crane and frictional pull. This, aided by the momentum of your simultaneous strike, brings you forward and off ballance while also creating distance to nullify your punch. He, meanwhile, is coiled to strike and has nothing but targets in front of him. So, there's one plan, at least until I get hit!

[dnc101]

Originally posted by rogue: " Gyaku-zuki (Japanese) or Gunnum So Bandae Jirugi( Korean) refer to the side that the punch is thrown from, not the reversing the hand position. In TKD the opposite of a reverse punch is an obverse punch and in karate a lunge punch (I prefer the Korean name), not a verticle punch."

You got me there. I gotta remember that we all speak different languages. Just look at it as me defining my terms, and I'll take ten laps for being so exocentric. I could use the exercise.

[Royal Dragon]

Why do we need to censor "****her" as in Fa[/b]rther?? That's a bit over board, don't you think?



dnc101,
Assuming you step forwardard with your right foot turn towards me and roll back (I can't see it any other way), I'm going to counter by splitting to clear, catch and then to single whip, thus palming you in the face on instinct. Again, one covers two.

[Royal Dragon]

By the time you feel the block, your already hit as the block and strike happen at the same time.

If your THAT good, you wouldn't have thrown the punch in the firstplace and instead you would have baited me into doing something stupid and easily exploitable.

[gazza99]

Crimson: Your absolutely right! But I dont think Xing-I has anything like the reverse punch, I define it as a punch chambered at the hip, palm up, fist clenched, then rotates completetly over to palm down for the strike. I dont think pao chuan fits this definition.

RD: I see exactly what you are saying, and there is no need to ask about the "one covers two", im well versed in that principle, have been for along time. Also I preach everyday to strike and intercept or "block" in the same motion simultaneously. Those two principles among others are day one stuff in my class.

Dnc is correct as the opponent has options, espcially if sensitivity is a player. If I take your center as soon as you touch me with your block your counter punch will most likely never reach me. Keep in mind I pictured the A-typical parry, reverse punch method when you first described it. But if you throw both at the same time its really hard to counter, but then again like RD just said, anyone with skill would not give someone such an option!

Semantics aside, I think most everyone can agree its not the most efficient punch regardless of the context of its use. Its also not the most powerfull. So why not spend your time training the more efficient and powerfull methods?

Regards,
Gary

[dnc101]

Could be done either way. Point is, for every move there is a counter, and every counter is a move. We could 'what if' and 'I'd just' all day. In reality, you just what if until the telling strike lands. Don't count on the move working, or the counter either. He allways has options, if he has the skills to use them.

This sounds like one of your bread and butter techniques, and that is fine. But it won't work all the time or on every opponent.

[dnc101]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
By the time you feel the block, your already hit as the block and strike happen at the same time.

If your THAT good, you wouldn't have thrown the punch in the firstplace and instead you would have baited me into doing something stupid and easily exploitable.

That punch may have been bait. At any rate, a strike thrown loosly is easily converted in mid delivery. The bridge is formed by controling where and how your block contacts, possibly droping the elbow so the block lands distal to the joint, and the crane comes naturally from your own force against a relaxed arm.

[NorthernMantis]

What is a reverse punch?

[dnc101]

Originally posted by NorthernMantis
What is a reverse punch?

We all have our own definitions, but we generally are discussing punches thrown from the hip in a palm up chambered position, and for the most part rotating to a palm down position on delivery.

You should re-read the thread. It is actually one of the better discussions I've seen on this forum. And (I know, I'll probably regret saying this) so far no one has resorted to names or claimed the ultimate truth. No one has even mentioned their style, nor the undisputable fact that it is the best!

[rogue]

Reverse punch, a punch thrown with the back (reverse) hand. What dnc and others may be talking about is the corkscrew motion many styles use when throwing a reverse punch.

[rogue]

dnc, just getting the terms down properly. :)

One thing besides what punch we're talking about is what makes something efficient. Gary's one inch punch is efficient for him but took a long time to develope, while a reverse punch (corkscrew of verticle) or right cross can be learned to a usable degree in a short amount of time which makes it efficient to learn.


Semantics aside, I think most everyone can agree its not the most efficient punch regardless of the context of its use. Its also not the most powerfull. So why not spend your time training the more efficient and powerfull methods? Gary, depending upon the situation of the fight it could be the most efficient technique or more often part of a set of techniques that make up an efficient and effective combination. I've seen techniques that seem to have questionable value in most arts until I've seen someone that knows how to use it, lately I've seen this in Tai Chi, as hard to believe as that is.;)

[Merryprankster]

dnc101--

Fair enough--LOL at tight as a banker's butt.

And I've tried vertical fist. I hate it. I really think it's a matter of personal preference, as you suggested. I feel VERY stable with my right cross. As far as the pinky thing goes, bad alignment is bad alignment (shrug). I wouldn't try to hit somebody in the face with my fist anyway. I think your example of Mike Tyson might be a bad choice though. That guy hits harder than probably 99.9% of the population, and I think it's reasonable to expect that he, or somebody else who hits that hard, might very well break their hand without protection.

I personally believe it's target choice more than anything. My boxing coach tells us point blank that boxing is A. Not self defense, and B. If you have to use it, hit the body, NOT the head :)

Gazza99--go find a decent boxer and you two can gently discuss whether the "vertical fist," is 'more powerful,' than a cross type punch. I spend my time training it because it works rather nicely for me, I'm happy with it, and I hit **** hard if I do say so myself.

This is one of those age old issues, as dnc suggests, that will never really be resolved.

[rogue]

If you have to use it, hit the body, NOT the head Sounds like my karate and TKD instructors. Now the problem with many karate people is we tend to practice going for the body so much we forget about those unenlightened slobs that still punch to the head.:D

[dnc101]

rogue, good points about efficiency as related to time required to learn different punches. And that one inch punch, if done improperly, can injure your wrist. Everything has its' pros and cons, else we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Merry, you are a grappler, right? I've been going out of town and working with a class that does grappling lately, though not often (gives my joints time to recover:D ). When upright, most grapplers fight bent forward at the waist. This puts them in a stance more like a boxer than a striking martial artist. So I can see why you would prefer strikes similar to a boxers (assuming that is how you fight, or have trained). They do a lot of punches that hook, either up or arround, even straight in. The elbow comes out, but their body alligns behind the punch as it lands. Whole different set of dynamics. But remember, boxing is primarily a sport. Transfering it to the street requires some modifications, just as a sport MAer would. Of course, you may not fight like that at all, and have other reasons. That class I mentioned is primarily TKD/Escrima/Aiki (more joint pain). Most of them fight upright. There's also a boxing class there, but they put them in the back where no one can see 'em :rolleyes:. They spar after every class, and the last couple of times I was there, interestingly enough, I was the only one to take it to the mat. Other than getting experience, that was a mistake! But it's all fun, right? (Where's that linament?)

[dnc101]

I avoid punching to the head. But I do strike to specific targets on the head. Ex: heel palm to the jaw, back knuckle to the temple, finger techniques to the eyes. If it's there, maybe even a punch to the nose or right behind the jaw- vertical, of course, and making sure I've set him up properly.

[gazza99]

An age old issue, and for the record I have compared it to a boxers punches, mine were just as quick, but more powerfull. Of course mine took longer to develop, so Rogue is correct in what context we are talking about efficiancy. I think that more expiedient would be a better term. Or perhaps more time effiicient when it comes to training. But Rogue I find it hard to believe that any situation could make a slower ,and less powerfull punch the way to go? I suppose it boils down to preference, skill, time in training, training available, and many other variables.

This issue is something better demonstrated for comparison, I say X way of punching is more effective, you say Y way is more effective, we hit the bag, and/or spar to see who is faster and more powerfull with the punch. But even then there are differences in our training. Different strokes for different folks. I just have yet to have anyone show me a more efficient and powerfull punch then what I am doing. But im still looking, and by no means has my punch peaked out, and im not talking physical condition, simply technique wise.

Also I would prefer a palm strike of some sort, especially striking to the head, makes for happier knuckles, and wrists! The more idiot proof, the better!

Gary

[TaoBoy]

Kudos to everyone - this is one of the best threads I've seen here in a while...

My 2 cents:

I generally don't utilise this strike. However, in my system we have a punch that is similar to the standard reverse punch - we call it a long punch - and it is used at the end of a fight as a finishing hit. Therefore, it is trained in a way that allows time to wind up and explode forth. We do not train this as a strike to be used in the beginning or middle of the confrontation as it is too slow. A simple pak sao (palm strike) is much faster and therefore a better tool in this situation.

I have seen reverse punches utilised well by karateka competitiors in point sparring matches. But in an actually confrontation the lunging reverse punch seems to be a bad choice. If someone wants to hit me in the body - I will take their head. Yeah, sure easy to say but the philosophy does make sense.

It's just a tool as most have previously said - but I think we can say it is not the most efficient tool available.

Cheers,
Adam

[Royal Dragon]

Gazza said,
"Also I preach everyday to strike and intercept or "block" in the same motion simultaneously. Those two principles among others are day one stuff in my class."

Reply]
LOL!!, you would be suprized how few people get that concept.


DNC101 said
"Could be done either way. Point is, for every move there is a counter, and every counter is a move. We could 'what if' and 'I'd just' all day."

Reply]
But that's where the fun is!!! :D

>>"This sounds like one of your bread and butter techniques, and that is fine. But it won't work all the time or on every opponent."

Rerply]
Actually no, I used to use it alot, but I now favor grab, pull down, jam kind'a things with Chin Na/Throwing with palm strikes, punches and elbows as supplementary set ups or "Softeners" for the throws or up roots. I'll knock a guy out, pick him up and toss him again just for fun. :D

[TjD]

i find the reverse punch is good for entry with the wing chun i do

when you step in, the opponent doesnt know which hand is going towards their head until the last minute, which is a bonus, and more importantly, with the arcing of the wing chun step, the reverse punch leaves my other hand (which is closer to the opponent - thus easier to defend with) free to do something with whatever gets thrown at me. i find it safer than entering with a punch coming from the side of my lead leg. due to wing chun mechanics i dont see it as that much slower either

that and its **** powerful:)

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by SevenStar
if so, please explain.

Only if one considers a right or left cross inefficient.

[rogue]

But Rogue I find it hard to believe that any situation could make a slower ,and less powerfull punch the way to go? I suppose it boils down to preference, skill, time in training, training available, and many other variables. I'll avoid the speed/power argument for now;) , but you're right there are many variables. For example when I first started crossing hands with some of the people in my tai chi class they were faster and more whip like, that is until I noticed how they telegraphed their strike. While they didn't move their hand back into a chamber they would roll their shoulders back. So as soon as their shoulder goes back I hit first with my less efficient strike. :D Now that's just the TC people that I know, your milage may vary.

Anyway I'e met several guys who were just fast enough and powerful enough to beat me.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Gazza, okie, indeed they don't really fit that description...to me, the reverse punch was just the punch launched from the side (chambering on the hip, the ribs, the pectoral area, doesn't matter) opposite the leading leg.
But you know, when practicing the pau and beng drills, you bring both hands to the dan tian and shoot the punches from there...so I really consider them reverse punches (the only difference with your definition is that they do not rotate all the way until the palm heart faces down)...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by dnc101
Yes, I do have the same reservations about this punch. Boxers wrap their hands withtape untill they are hard as a rock, and they wear heavy padded gloves. But when they try to throw the same punch on the street, they often prove my point by breaking their hands. I recall someone posting a link on that topic a while back. I'll see if I can find it.

I think I'd attribute that more to conditioning, not structure. I've used the punch and never broken anything. I've never had any pain in my hand at all after hitting someone.

[Merryprankster]

dnc101,

I find my wrestling stance mixes rather nicely with boxing. I'm a little deeper for boxing, and left side forward, but since I can shoot off either leg, I really don't care :D

[SevenStar]

"Lastly, one side note--boxers typically do NOT practice with their hands wrapped like they have it done in a pro fight--ie, it's not a mass of tape."

They use gloves.

They don't always wear gloves while hitting a bag.

[Merryprankster]

Seven,

True. Sometimes I like to whack the pads, bags around to see how hard I can punch without a glove.

My conclusion is that if I worked on toughening the skin, I can hit just as hard. I mean, I can do it NOW, I just run a risk of abrasion. Hardly a consideration in a real fight. Bloody knuckles aren't exactly a life-threatening fight ender... :)

[SevenStar]

no doubt. My knuckles' worst enemy is a canvas bag! :) From what I can tell though, I hit just as hard without a glove as I do with one.

[Merryprankster]

Seven, what is YOUR experience with vertical vs palms down?

I don't buy the "more developed, more efficient," garbage. It is what it is, to me, and I think it's a matter of personal preference, yes?

[SevenStar]

agreed. I think it's more along the line of personal preference. Like I said before, I know that the vertical can be harder for the opponent to see, because it doesn't telegraph as much, but I'm more comfy with the palms down punch.

[Merryprankster]

Seven, me too. I find the body mechanics to be far preferable for me. Is this a function of our strength relative to our size? I'm reasonably strong at 190, and I believe you are quite a bit stronger :). In other words, do we have the stronger shoulders to stabilize the punch whereas somebody slighter may not?

Or is this complete fantasy? I'm of the complete fantasy opinion, but I thought the question should be asked.

[SevenStar]

my guess would be that it's fantasy. Anyone who properly trains the punch would develop the appropriate stability in the shoulder. A a smaller person they likely won't get as much power, but I don't think simply using a vert punch instead would make the punch equivalent to the larger person's palm down punch.

[Merryprankster]

Yeah, that's kinda what I thought.

Just another friendly reminder that size and strength DO matter! :D

[dnc101]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Anyone who properly trains the punch would develop the appropriate stability in the shoulder. A a smaller person they likely won't get as much power, but I don't think simply using a vert punch instead would make the punch equivalent to the larger person's palm down punch.

Nothing will make the smaller fighters punches equivalent to the larger fighters punches, except possibly incompetence or dissability in the larger man. I wouldn't want to count on that allways being the case, which is why I concentrate more on other tools and weapons. When I do punch, I try to make it as effective as possible, and with as little chance of self injury. That is why the vertical punch- for my frame and style of fighting it does both.

So, once again (as with most threads on this forum) we must come to the conclusion that "it's whatever works best for you." It is interesting though to learn how everyone else does it, and why it works for them. 10 points to whoever started this thread!

[SevenStar]

Cool, I get 10 points!! :D

Yeah, size and strength definitely do matter, despite what people may think. The thing is, they aren't deciding factors, only merits in your favor. for example, I have a crushing grip. (we actually had a real grip tester brought in to my old job, and I had the strongest grip in the company. can't remember how many lbs. of pressure it put out though) when I grab my arm to prevent an armbar, purple and black belts cannot break my grip, even when they push against my arm with both legs. they eventually tire of trying and switch to something else, like a wrist manipulation. Also, due to my size and strength, it's easier for me to power my way into things, and it's difficult to put certain things on me. Even still, the smaller purple belts still beat my ass.

[fa_jing]

I saw an article once in "journal of asian martialarts" or whateverit'scalled, that showed some scientific tests that supposedly proved that the vertical fist is more powerful than the palm-down fist. But I can't believe that's true. I just think they call for different body mechanics, and use different muscles.

Anyway, when I studied 7* mantis alot of our air punching was a "corkscrew punch," from the hip chamber and going towards shoulder level, with the other arm going back to the hip. So it's definitely in CMA, too. But I always thought that the movement of the other arm to chamber as you punch, was just to train your body mechanics and power, not to actually withdraw the other hand in combat. At the same time they were training a grab. But when you talk about a boxer's cross or whatever, it seems like they are just using a reduced portion of the trajectory of the reverse punch - in other words, starting from halfway out and fist vertical (half turned over in this analogy) and proceeding out and turning the palm down. So the punch would be a big movement in training, but a smaller movement in application. And of course, the other hand wouldn't go to the hip but rather back to the on-guard postion.

Personally, mostly I use the vertical fist. I'm trying to keep my elbows down.

[SevenStar]

yeah, that's the understanding that I have of it also. And we use both that and the vertical fist in my longfist class - it's definitely in CMA. as for the elbow down thing, that is a good point. a punch like a cross will leave your midsection wide open if you flare your elbow too much. Ideally though, there should be minimal elbow flare. flaring telegraphs more, leaves a bigger opening in your defense and (i think) is weaker than a properly thrown punch. I could be wrong on that one though.

[Merryprankster]

Flared elbows take power off the shot, and, more importantly, leave your ribs exposed. Hello, straight left to the body, right hook to the liver. YEEEHAH!!!

In other words, seven, you're RIGHT :)

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by fa_jing


Personally, mostly I use the vertical fist. I'm trying to keep my elbows down.

How about a 3/4 twisting punch (45 degrees)? Stability is increased in the fist and wrist. Less antagonistic muscle tension than the twisted wrist in a traditional corkscrew punch is also a factor. This increases the velocity of your punch.

There is less stability and torque in the vertical punch. Torque can add some mustard to your strikes. The speed of the punch compared to a 45 degree punch is negligible.

The ulna actually loses contact with the carpal bones which creates less stability in the full-twist/corkscrew punch. Speed is sacrificed and the body as a whole tends to twist a bit to the opposite side. Not a good base or balance thing. Plus, it causes you to "wing" your punches at times. Speaking of base, lifting the rear heel to increase punching power can create some grappling advantages for your opponent, if he is skilled in such tactics.

That's it though, I'll say no more. Can't divulge all the traditional secrets, haha!

[SevenStar]

that's a new fist to me. Is it common only in okinawan styles?

[Water Dragon]

Sev, he's talking 'bout the diamond fist. Does noone here throw a cross thumb down?

[rogue]

Good discussion on chambering (aka reverse punch) (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=14002&perpage=15&pagenumber=1)


Partial post by Kusanku
...
Self defense is for when someone jumps you before you know they are coming, before you can get ready.So a chamber which is the Judo counter, to a grab and armlock or wristlock attempt, step up or back and pull in your arm and fist to side, just as in karate,is for when I am minding my own business ytoo much and some jerk grabs me, before I see him coming and can vector into my jiyu kamae, fighting stance, so as to level him and his whole neighborhood with my devastating side thrust kick etc.

So, I am standing there, and some dude jumps from nowehre and I have had this happen, into my face and says Hey! and grabs me with intent to do whatever,and I chamber as I smack him with a shotei in the jaw or something a la Jon Bluming.If I didn't chamber, maybe I still do it, but if he were a grappler, I might now be in trouble.

This is self defense, I smack him, get away, maybe follow up if can't.But it isn't a fight.

A fight is, a guy shows up, says, Hey, you! Let's go, I heard you think you all that, and we shuffle and dance, smack thud wham, but both were able to commence fighting unencumbered. This anyway, is how I see it.In other words, if you see 'em coming and can get 'em up intime, that's a fight.

if they are allasudden in your face and no chance to get 'em up and they do whatever but you still have time to move, that is self defense. Now, one can become the other, real easy.But this is why self defense is taught against single attacks and so forth, while fighting is about combinations.
...

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by SevenStar
that's a new fist to me. Is it common only in okinawan styles?

I don't think that many Japanese Karate styles teach this fist form. I know that there are some orthodox Okinawan styles that use this as their primary fist.

If you hold your arms out in front of your body, hands open, in a relaxed manner, no twisting of the wrists whatsoever, then close your hands to make fists you will notice that your fists are in a 45 degree position. I guess it does form a pyramid or diamond now that I think about it.

Anyway, this is an anatomically neutral position where antagonistic and protagonistic muscles work the least against each other. This increases punching velocity and the punching power/force delivered like the vertical punch, but the added torque of slightly turning your punches over adds extra force to your strikes.

Natural is the key word when it comes to fighting. If you are straining or creating a tense unrelaxed "flow" then you aren't maximizing your physiology and physics. All of this is important in a game of milliseconds. Every advantage and "secret trick" counts.

Just my opinion though. I'm probably wrong.

[rogue]

OP, what's your opinion on where the fist should go, toward the center or straight from the shoulder?

[fa_jing]

Hey OP - I think that fist is good for certain punches. I think it exists in some styles of Wing Chun, especially for low punches.

[SevenStar]

It has to go toward the center, no? unless your opponent is lined up with your shoulder - you gotta aim to hit him.

[dnc101]

I tried that diamond fist, and I think you are raght. It feels like an anatomically neutral position, and it may have more oomph. I'll have to practice that.