Does kung fu have anything to prove?

[friday]

hi everyone
just wanted to know do kung fu MA have anything to prove? are we expected to participate and train for competitions in 'reality combat' matches such as UFC, Pride, etc? and if we don't does that mean kung fu is ineffective or cowardly?

i am aware of some MA or MMA's criticism of reasons put forward by some ppl as to why kung fu ppl don't participate in MMA such as the UFC. they usually boil down to:

our techniques are too dangerous
UFC etc isn't realistic
multiple opponents etc kung fu is better
health benefits

i am also aware of many MMA who do diss kung fu, chigong, etc. and i'm sure there are those who treat all MA with respect.

i am interested in finding out what u all think. should kung fu ppl participate in UFC etc in order to prove a point? should we be expected to?

:)

[dnc101]

it has nothing to prove. It's been proven in real application over hundreds of years. Individual artists may feel they have to prove something, but I'd say that isn't following the principles of your art. Do your chigong, find your center, and ignore your detractors. You do what you do for your reasons, so why give credence to their chest pounding? In point of fact, they aren't following the tennets of their own style(s). I know of no martial art that teaches disrespect as one of its cornerstones. Individual instructors or schools may, but not the art as a whole. Of course today there is the media hype and profileing for pro events. Personally, I find that stupid and disgusting.

As for the events themselves (Pride, UFC, tournaments, etc.), you have to understand that they are sporting events, and the participants are athletes. They all have rules that restrict what you can do. Therefore, if you practice a reality based art, participation in these developes bad habits. They are a good place to test your skills against others, and you find out how mentally and physically tough you are. But some reality based schools put students through an extensive deprograming after they have competed in sporting events. It's a whole different mindset.

[old jong]

You care to much about what trolls have to say!

[friday]

hi jong

no its not really trolls on internet forums i'm talking about.
its the opinion of some MMA, BJJ etc in Australia.
i'm not that worried either but i think its a valid question/issue ive raised. i'm just interested in finding out how other ppl feel about it.

[old jong]

Hey Friday!
I know what you mean.Some of those BJJ or MMA guys feel like only them have the truth! And, only their way is of some value.
I don't think dissing others and their ways is adding something to their real personnal value.
You have the choice to do what you want and ignore stupid and provocative comments if you want.
MMA's attract a particular kind of people.They should respect others who are not interrested in that kind of competition.

[Former castleva]

I agree with dnc.

There are and will be people who have something to prove,but an artform itself and it´s sincere practitioners,not.

Well established foundation cannot be uprooted by angry statements.
If you want to sportfight,then do.Even if many others don´t wish to,it is no reason to swear.

[MA fanatic]

Kung Fu has nothing to prove. But, certain artists who make claims of being "too deadly" do. BTW, BJJ is as traditional an art as any. As for grappling, grappling arts have been around for what may be longer than Kung Fu. I wouldn't call anyone who wants to test the reality of certain techniques "trolls." That is simple not true. I would sooner call the so called masters who claim deadliness but never proved their deadly skills exist "trolls." Actually, those masters who claim to pass on deadly skills yet have never tested them, and only know of their so called deadliness through ancient unproven stories, should be called liars. They deserve no respect and shouldn't even bother calling themselves masters. I think for some Kung Fu students it is safer to believe ancient tales of, "I heard of a master in China (my teacher's teacher) who used such and such technique and killed a man in a challenge match," soothing. But no one seems ot ask these questions: When was this match held? Who was killed? Were you allowed to murder people who challenge you in China? Was the police involved? What did the court decide? Weren't martial arts elegal at the time? Was your teacher's teacher sent to prison? ONce you start asking, generally you're told that you have no respect. Try it. You'll quickly see that many masters pass on tales blown out of proportion or made up all together. lol
MA fanatic

[LEGEND]

Real Life Self Defense???
No...all u need is to HIT FIRST HIT FAST...whether it's a CROSS...a CHAIN PUNCH...a ROUNDHOUSE to the thigh...whatever...CMA does not have to prove it's STREET EFFECTIVE. Now if CMA claims it is the best for the KICKBOXING or MMA scene...then there is a forum they can participate in to show the style.

[MA fanatic]

Great point Legend. I think Kung Fu is a good self defense art. Actually, there are so many systems of Kung fu, just using the term Kung Fu seems insufficient. As for NHB fighting, I disagree with those who claim to have skills beyond some of the NHB fighters. Once that claim is made, one has to back it up. In many forms of grappling (bjj, sambo, judo, etc.), Muay Thai, and NHB fighting, the moment someone claims to have tapped out or defeated another well known fighter, he better be able to walk the walk. MMA / NHB circles are pretty tight and frauds are usual discovered quickly.
MA fanatic

[diego]

Originally posted by friday
hi everyone
just wanted to know do kung fu MA have anything to prove? are we expected to participate and train for competitions in 'reality combat' matches such as UFC, Pride, etc? and if we don't does that mean kung fu is ineffective or cowardly?

i am aware of some MA or MMA's criticism of reasons put forward by some ppl as to why kung fu ppl don't participate in MMA such as the UFC. they usually boil down to:

our techniques are too dangerous
UFC etc isn't realistic
multiple opponents etc kung fu is better
health benefits

i am also aware of many MMA who do diss kung fu, chigong, etc. and i'm sure there are those who treat all MA with respect.

i am interested in finding out what u all think. should kung fu ppl participate in UFC etc in order to prove a point? should we be expected to?

:)

No points or expectations should be laced on practitioners of chinese martial art!, but then one should question Is chinese martial art art or "boxing" ie pugilism...so yes in respects to the ancients/ancestors KF'ers should compete ...Schools should be standing upto thier lineage as if everyone just does thier art Kungfu can become a cardboard cutout or like a wax museam of what most likely was a expression of fighting and not what a general student might see as just martial-art!...like without testing differant schools the way of fighting may become Backward...wich would turn into a videorecording of museum works oppossed to learning how to manipulate Canvas!.

Basically, what i am saying is according to legends school founders tested foriegnors and local schools!...only the farmers practised the art in winter got thier workouts in the summer working the fields and the nerdy bourgioues sp? scholars practised it as a dance of calligraphy/ That's my impression how say kungfu differs from western boxing as a sport!.

What do you think?.

[TkdWarrior]

nice post diego...
understand Kung-fu/Martial Arts is designed for self defense purpose not for sports. there is difference b/w sport and fight/self defense...u r never under threat to get killed in sports
why do u care ?? don't u trust ur guts? don't u believe urself...
if u don't then no matter wat u train u won't be able to prove urself...
if u do then these question doesn't serve any purposes.
practice practice then some more...

u don't hav to prove urself...
yup i'll agree with all those MMA if they say it's good one to one but it's not good when ur life is in danger...
kung-fu tells u how to save ur ass not only by fighting by good decision too... if u think running is best option KF ppl will use it but MMA(they know their art is best) they fight their wits out..
Arts hav their limitations, they can be best for some given situations...

i'll agree with MA fanatic
if some one tells u they hav ultimate solution then they r liars...
understand the word art which relates to creativity, creativity cannot be proved(i took one of my good freinds words from other forum, i know being nice guy he won't mind me using:D), it has no starting no ending... can goes on evolving forever...


-TkdWarrior-

[TaoBoy]

Kung fu has nothing to prove and neither do any other arts. It's only those with over-inflated egos that have something to prove. Just because style A defeated style B in tournament C means nothing.

The only person who you have to prove anything to is yourself.

[friday]

:) thanks for all your responses guys and keep them coming
this issue arose out of chats ive been having and the comments insulting kf styles were from MMA.

another thing i want to ask is
if MMA calls u out, trashs kung fu infront of u. how should i take it?
should i respond and fight?

[LEGEND]

Well for what reason??? To prove your style is effective in MMA events??? Ask them to pay u to do it. LOL. Real fighting is based on SUCKER PUNCHING and GRAPPLING( if the sucker punch doesn't equate to a KO ).

[jon]

friday

Nice topic for conversation.
You know me and know i like to mix it up a little but you also know i study traditional Chinese arts.
The reason im posting is becouse ive had weird bunch of experiences recently and one of your comments sparked my interest.
"if MMA calls u out, trashs kung fu infront of u. how should i take it?"
This interested me becouse at my work all of my friends have found out i do kung fu. They also know i like to spar, at first i had to deal with stupid questions. I answered to the best of my ability but always tried to keep a level head and not give out 'bs'.

Then the next step started 'can i test you' me being the over egar fool that i am, simply went 'yeah of course'.
I managed to make a fool of one of the guys at work infront of the rest of the staff. In my own mind i felt great and also felt sure that this HAD to put a stop to this rubbish.
Well guess what?
Now EVERYONE is CONSTANTLY trying to test me out, the lastest trick is to sneak up behind me smack me and run:rolleyes:

The point im trying to make is people ALWAYS think they know better or they can 'maybe' get a hit in. The trick is to just go about your buisness and keep your mouth SHUT!
I spend all my days now having to be constantly alert for some fool trying to hit me.
My boss walks up the other day and attacks me with a ruler like a sword - i blocked both hits and avoided being 'cut' by his 'sword'.
So naturaly the second im on the phone and paying no attension i feel a little stab in my ribs and my annoying boss leering 'didnt block that one, did ya?'.

This all culminated the other day when a friend from work came over and decided he REALLY wanted a test.
I wasnt sure what exactly he wanted to do but he saids 'do you think you can block me full power?'
Before i can even respond he launches two VERY hard fast punches full bore at my midsection. I got out the way and in a reflex struck him STRAIT in the eye. Obviously he was not happy with the result BUT he doesnt bother me anymore. However it should not have come to this EVER.

The plain fact is most people who moan about style vs style are actualy fan boys there not actual fighters. The real deal ive often noticed are very respectable. Read some of the interviews with the fighters and you will quickly see what i mean.
In other words this is not really 'I' can beat you. Its more like 'my hero ...' could kick your heros butt.
Its like being back in primary school and about as much fun.


Dont spend your effort trying to prove things to people who have no need to really know anyway.
Ive seen you move friday and im fairly sure that there is not many who would want to be infront of you when your focussed. Nevermind trying to prove that to a bunch of people who's only fighting knowledge is gleaned from what they watch on tv.

[Ryu]

Hey Legend, I post here a lot www.senshido.com
Check it out because I think you might like a lot of the stuff there.

As far as the post. Well I'm going to put a whole new spin on it. :)
I don't think all "MMA" people have to prove anything if they choose not to. To compete in MMA you've got to have the desire to compete in it 110%. If you don't, you're going to lose. Plain and simple. If I went into a MMA tournament now with the mindset "well I dunno if I really want to be here..." guess what will happen to me.... :)

I train very "MMA" like and my sparring matches look very much like "NHB". But I don't want to compete in MMA because I don't have the passion to do so. Not because I'm too deadly, not because I'm on a higher "enlightenment" plane, or any other cornball reason. The reason is simple. I don't want to.
That should be a good enough reason for anyone. I believe in what I train, I believe in what I am learning, teaching, and studying. I believe I can probably do well in MMA if I get a MMA trainer to train me, coach me, etc.
But without the passion to compete, you're a sitting duck.
My competition is training with the best guys on the ground, standing up, with weapons, etc. I enjoy sparring with the greats, and learning from them.

To say that ANYONE is obliged to compete because of a style they practice is ludicrous. People compete because they are competitive in certain sports. That's it.

(but of course I don't go around saying how deadly I am, and how many MMA people I can "knock senseless" with "reality" moves. :rolleyes: .............. If I did, well I should probably "step up."

............. :confused: man...... how may quotation marks do I use in a thread at one time?

Ryu

[LEGEND]

Ryu...i checked that site before and i've seen and read your posts. Was linked to Sammy Franco's work. Great site!

[straight blast]

I don't think that any style has anything to prove. It's practitioners however...that's another story. I'm inclined to agree with Jon
In other words this is not really 'I' can beat you. Its more like 'my hero ...' could kick your heros butt

And when someone gets in your face with all the challenge BS I guess that is the difference between a thug and a Martial Artist. It's all about ego. A thug must immediately fight the challenger to preserve their ego and cover their lack of self worth. A MA just laughs and walks away, realising that to fight for the sake of pride is a waste of time.

But of course if the 'challenge' is pressed to the point where an attack is made, then have your fun :D

[Merryprankster]

The plain fact is most people who moan about style vs style are actualy fan boys there not actual fighters. The real deal ive often noticed are very respectable. Read some of the interviews with the fighters and you will quickly see what i mean.

Bingo.

[MA fanatic]

Jon: That was not only a thought provoking post, but an entertaining one. I think any one of us who was discovered to be into martial arts had at one point or another come across wise asses like your boss and co worker. Usually those people either have a warped sense of humor, large egos, afraid of what they don't understand so they try to bring you down, or are just trying to become better friends with you using some 2nd grade communitcation techniques. I had similar things happen to me at work, and unfortunately if your co workers don't understand that, "please I would appreciate to keep things professional at work, and if you want to learn more about martial arts why don't you come to my school one day and watch a class," you often have to let them feel a little of your skill for them to leave you a lone. I once told a co worker that instead of trying to kick me with some odd looking kicks, why don't I just show him how to kick properly. He agreed. Next day I brought a kicking shield to work and at lunch took my shoes off and showed him some power kicks while he held the shield. He had a little training session, but he never wanted to surprise me with any attacks again. I think you did the right thing in your situation.

As for challenge matches, I doubt your Kung Fu school would ever be challenged by anyone who is half decent in MMA. MMA guys (mma is the sanctioned version of No Holds Barred tournaments they still have in Brazil, Russia, and some other parts of the world)
consider themselves athletes. They want to receive large purses for fighting and devote their life to training 4 to 5 hours a day. Some run their own boxing/Muay Thai/grappling gyms. I have never seen anyone who is anything in MMA (or any other serious martial artist for that matter) challenge a Kung Fu school. You may run into some teenagers who think that because they grapple and have spent a few rounds in a boxing ring that they're tough guys. But you often see the same thing with teenagers who first start taking TKD, Kung Fu, Karate, etc. etc.
MA fanatic

[neptunesfall]

As for grappling, grappling arts have been around for what may be longer than Kung Fu

two words: shuai chiao.

[Merryprankster]

three words:

Gilgamesh vs. Enkidu.

[neptunesfall]

7 words:
i really hope you're not being serious.

[dnc101]

Jon, long time since I,ve seen you post.
I think most of us can relate to what you say, but one thing got me thinking on another track.


Originally posted by jon
Dont spend your effort trying to prove things to people who have no need to really know anyway.


The corrolary to that is you should spend time and effort with those who do know, specifically those in other arts. I make an effort to go to other schools that do different styles. Most are open, glad to share, and like to expose their students to different things as well. If you only train to fight against your own style your focus is too narrow, your moves are too choreographed. Working with others forces you to think on your feet, improves reaction to the unexpected, and exposes weaknesses. If you do believe in what you are doing then you should be willing to put it up for comparison. What I usually find is that both their methods and mine work, and both have strengths and weaknesses. And when I do identify my weakness, I go back to my base and usually I find it's my application or understanding that is weak. You also get a different perspective on doing things that sometimes gives insight to your own style.

The difference between this and the main topic is that you have people from more than one style who are willing to share knowlege without the chest pounding, or mine's beter, or we're tougher attitudes. Ignore the egocentric fools, and the morbid curious fools, and seek out those who have a genuine interest in developing their art.

This is a little off track, I know. My point is that we should focus our energies on the good practicioners and leave the crap on the dung heap where they belong. Wallowing in it with them would only prove you can smell as bad as they do.

[MightyB]

It has nothing to do with style. Sometimes people are testing themselves. A martial artist asks "can I do that?" not "can my style do that?".

It's true that the winners of the big events like Pride and the UFC get some fame and fortune, but there are tons of smaller events going on everyday where the winner gets nothing and actually paid to enter. Those aren't about the egos of the artists, those are about the challenge and the courage to drop any notion of ego or assumptions about their chosen styles. They fight to test themselves and often has little or nothing to do with the opponent. Often times they have no anger or animosity towards their opponent and see the fight as an opportunity to grow as a martial artist. That's why you see people hug and congratulate each other after a bout. Because the winner always knows that the next time it could be him that loses, and the loser will never make the same mistake twice.

[dnc101]

I don't think any one is saying competition is wrong, or that all who compete are butts. We're talking about those who are disrespectful of others who don't compete. My guess is that this is the minority. But, as usual, they get the most attention. I've worked out with people who compete from point sparing to the local NHB matches you talk about. They were all good folks- which is a good thing because the NHB guys ARE tough! And they have a good handle on what really works. But there is still the fact that they are limmited by rules as to what they can do, and what will get thrown at them.

As for testing themselves, that is what any competition is really about.

[neptunesfall]

kung fu has nothing to prove.
people have something to prove.

[Ryu]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
three words:

Gilgamesh vs. Enkidu.

Ugh, I'm working through this very story for a class....

Ryu

[guohuen]

The only thing kung fu has to prove is where it was friday night, who it was with and why it has lipstick on it's collar.

[Merryprankster]

I'm only suggesting that if somebody took the time to talk about a wrestling match between two demi-gods, then chances are, they had periodic contests and maybe even systems. This would predate the Chinese systems, unless I have my history wrong.

Point simply being that grappling as an art form has indeed been around longer than Shuai Chiao.

[neptunesfall]

shuai chiao is grappling.

[Chang Style Novice]

Sure, but in a venn diagram of shaui chiao and grappling, the shuai chiao circle would not completely encapsulate the grappling circle. It's debatable whether the grappling circle would completely encapsulate the shaui chiao circle, but I agree with MP.

Grappling is WAY OLD. Older than any codified martial art, for sure. Systems of grappling may be older than shuai chiao, which is quite old itself, but I don't have any reliable data about the oldest grappling system. That egyptian relief that seemed to show grappling techniques that was posted here about a million years ago seemed to suggest a codification in N. Africa about 5000 years ago, though, as does the legend of Gilgamesh.

And "Enkidu" has to be the funniest name for a tough guy ever.

[LEGEND]

three words!
Sever vs. Ecker! :)