RE: Anyone in here use Tai Chi in Self-defense?

[Happy]

Hi, i'm new in here. I'm starting to Yang Tai Chi Chuan. I'm learning only the form from my Instructor. I also am learning some of the fighting applications of each movement from some other instructors. I have been studying Shaolin Kempo for a while now, and I can see in the Tai Chi form strikes and blocks. I was wondering if I can hear some feedback from the people on this fourm, that has used Tai Chi as a Fighting Art.
Thanks!
Happy

[Water Dragon]

I made it 3 rounds with an amateur pro boxer using Taiji. He knocked me out in the beginning of the third actually (due to conditioning) Afterwards, he said I was hard as hell to hit.

[Nexus]

A lady at the school I study at is a schoolteacher. She was in her classroom and one of the the larger students decided to run up at her to try and scare her. He came running at her full force and she dropped into a forward stance ward-off left and the kid bounced off her arm and flew backwards. According to the story I heard the class all applauded.

[CD Lee]

The wardoff is a great little move eh? If I am not mistaken it has a wedging effect correct? I am not Tai Chi, but at my school they every so often demonstrate a point with wardoff.

WaterDragon -

When you sparred or fought the boxer, what did you have on your hands? Being an amateur I am sure he threw lots of quick flurries at you. How did you handle the quick rapid combinations? Very curious to hear from you on this.

[Liokault]

I Have used mine a few times:D

The key is to find a tai chi class that will teach you to fight as most have lost the element that makes them martial arts:mad:

Even then you will need to train in it seriously and expect to get hurt/tired on a regular basis:eek:

One of the best things you can do is search this forum for posts by shooter and read what he has writen as he has posted a great deal of good stuff about the correct use of tai chi:o

But remember if your tai chi class tells you that after doing the hand form for 10 years you will be an unbeatable fighter then walk away:mad:

look for a class that wrestles, sparrs full contact, hits pads. Also try to really win in your first few times of doing pushing hands....if you can knock them over or if you are told that you should not be using force then walk away:)

[The Willow Sword]

http://www.arjbarker.com/arjimation/ep5.html

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by CD Lee

WaterDragon -

When you sparred or fought the boxer, what did you have on your hands? Being an amateur I am sure he threw lots of quick flurries at you. How did you handle the quick rapid combinations? Very curious to hear from you on this.

Well, we fought in between fights at a local MMA event. They had 3 round toughman bouts going on. I saw a couple of the local thugz fighting and figured "Hey!! I'm gonna look good as hell beating on these guys"

Then I find out I'm fighting an amateur pro who trains with Angel Manfreddy out of the Whiting gym, 16 oz gloves.

Round 1: I actually almost got a knock out! Staggered him. He wasn't used to Taiji. Every time he threw a power shot, my forearms were able to catch the motion, lead it out, and I would counter by following the circle. He did catch me a few times, but I was able to at least partially yield out of the punch so I never took more than 40 % of the shot.

Round 2: He figured out what I was doing :( He starts to double up on the jab and step out. Triple on the jab, step out, Jab and catch me on the end of a cross. He wasn;t deep enough to knock me out, He was catching me with the last 2-3 inches of the punch. Basically, he figured out how to give me just enough energy that I couldn't "take it" from him. I got a few shots in, but it was his fight at the time. It's hard to deal with a boxer's jab because there's no real energy (momentum) to "take" from him.

Round 3: I'm gassed now from getting my neck snapped all over the place in Rd 2. He plays the same game then...

jab, step in for the cross which rocked me, left hook to the ribs which sent me down. I'm beaten, fights over.

[The Willow Sword]

brush the knee and push or use parting the wild horses mane,,or how come you didnt use fair lady works the shuttle? My god some tai chi fighter you are water dragon,,,YOu suck.;) :D :rolleyes:
you know im kidding,,,,,,,MRTWS

[blacktaoist]

I think Tai chi is very good for combat, But you have to find a very good teacher that can utizie it in any situation.

Training Tai Chi for real combat, I think you should first practice many hours of standing Chi kung, this way you develop your root, and a relax body. Then learn to understand each movement within your Tai Chi form, learn to see each tai Chi movement as an offensive and defensive, even see your defensive techniques as offensive techniques.

Do many hours of push hands and freestyle push hands to develop your sticking skills, from practicing many hours of push hands, you see that when you spar other martial artist or fighters that you will be able to smother most opponents attacks, this give you an opening to throw most opponents to the ground.

My opinion is you want to be a good Tai Chi fighter, you have to spar with many kinds of Martial artists and fighters, this way you get some real experience trying to apply your art. In time your body will just react to any fighting situation and flow with it.

Peace

[Brad]

I think you should first practice many hours of standing Chi kung
How long should someone be able to do the standing exercise at a time? Is it basically just stand there as long as you can or is there a good time to set as a goal? As an example, say my goal is to be able to practice this for one hour straight. Would that be considered a good goal? One more question... could practicing the standing post qigong for too long hurt the body more than help it?

[jun_erh]

Brad-have you considered praciticing chi kung in a group?

[Brad]

Actually, I go to a class and have a teacher. We do qigong as a group at the begining of class, but not the standing still stuff. He told me to practice that mostly at home. I hold it until my legs get too tired, or someone in the house makes me move :D Just thought I'd see what other people do.

[toi]

using basic taiji principils one could (with proper relaxation) dodge most punches used in western boxing.

[taijiquan_student]

"Dodging" is not part of the taiji principles. The goal is to yield and deflect and to listen and stick, not to dodge. The word dodge implies more of a jumpy or nervous reaction rather then listening and yielding. Of course I still end up dodging plenty in sparring, I just mean "dodging" is a bad way to think of what you should be doing.

[Happy]

Thank You all for your replies.
Happy.

[Liokault]

"Dodging" is not part of the taiji principles. The goal is to yield and deflect and to listen and stick, not to dodge. The word dodge implies more of a jumpy or nervous reaction rather then listening and yielding. Of course I still end up dodging plenty in sparring, I just mean "dodging" is a bad way to think of what you should be doing.


If any one in your new tai chi class talks like this walk away and keep looking!!

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
I made it 3 rounds with an amateur pro boxer using Taiji.

Wow! Those amatuer pro's are really hard to come by, in any sport. :D

[Water Dragon]

Guy Solis. Do a web search smart @ss

[taijiquan_student]

Liokault.

Could you explain your post a little more please? I don't want to get in a flame war here. All I said was that dodging implies more of a nervous reaction while sticking and deflecting is more ideal.

My school is just fine, by the way, Liokault. My teacher can use his taiji to fight, we spar full contact, we train everything in the system with martial intent, and there is no new-age hippie mentality at the school at all. If the word "yield" comes up in a discussion of taiji and you think "tree-hugging hippie cra.p" I suggest you rethink your training method.

p.s. I don't mean this in a rude way (well, maybe a little confrontational;)), and I'm not criticizing your school or Dan. I know of him and that he won that full-contact thing back in the day.

Actually, a student of Dan's in the UK recently attended my schools' Jian festival way out in Estonia this July. We had a great time, he showed us his form and some of Dan's stuff, and we showed him our stuff. I don't know if he's at the same school as you, but if you know Kie tell him everyone at Great River says hello. I look forward to your reply.

[CD Lee]

Water, that is really cool. It would be very difficult to fight an amataer boxer that is any good. They use sound fighting principles just like we try to do. The jab is a very difficult weapon to counter. I feel that jab is the most diffucult technique to overcome, due to the fact that they pull it back so quicly, and it is not a full power blow.

I take it by your description of the format, that you were probably not allowed to throw or grapple? In your situation, I would have tried to throw or grapple, or...if the we could not, get tired and get knocked out. :D

I'm no fool. I know I could not go three rounds sport fighting right now. I could go 45 seconds doing the real thing with good strong energy, using western boxing, but then the heart rate would surge, and the arms would sag, and BAM! BTW, 45 seconds is a LONG time against an untrained person. Plenty of time do some serious damage, or get away.

I am not at a level that I could use Xingyi in a fight with a real boxer in a match situation.

MAJOR KUDOS.

[Water Dragon]

Thanks, but don't give me too much credit This is more of a "It took me longer than I thought it would to get my @ss beat because of Taiji" story then a "Look how bad I am" story. The only thing I'm really proud of is the caliber of the man that whooped my @ss :D

At least I lasted longer than the other guy he fought that night. He went down in about 20 seconds.

[Water Dragon]

Oh yeah, I couldn't do it now either. This was back in 2000 when I was in better shae and still. After the fight, I threw up. He was barely breathing hard. The conditioning in those guys is unbeleivable until you go up against it.

[Liokault]

"Dodging" is not part of the taiji principles. The goal is to yield and deflect and to listen and stick, not to dodge. The word dodge implies more of a jumpy or nervous reaction rather then listening and yielding. Of course I still end up dodging plenty in sparring, I just mean "dodging" is a bad way to think of what you should be doing.

My problem with your post is that it drags tai chi down into weird ofton non self explantary terminology. I belive this sort of thing is draging tai chi down and gives guys why have nothing else the opertunity to sound like they know what they are doing (im not refering to you here).

To me jumpy/nervous reaction sounds a lot faster and more practicle than listening and yielding even if at the end of the day itis the same thing!!

Also feel free to criticize dan...hell I do all the time.....I think he expects it.

[Water Dragon]

I think what Taiji Student is getting at is this:

The way you explain/describe something changes the way you physically do it. "Dodge" has implications that will make the motion jerky,scattered, jumpy, etc. This can get your clock leaned real quick.

"Yield" on the other hand gives the implication of a smaller, smoother, more relaxed movement which is the goal.

Although in essence, they really are the same thing. Sort of

Or...
When I was first taught a straight punch. I was taught to "grab my finger" while the teacher stuck his finger in front of his chest. Next command was, "Pretend my fingers in the middle of my chest and grab my finger" You get the idea.

word association can be a helluva teaching tool.

[Happy]

I glad to see a lot of helpful replies to my post. I hope I didn't stir up any trouble here, seems like some people are mad at each other. I'm happy to be learning Yang Tai Chi as a Martial Art. I can allready see a lot of differn't moves being used in fighting.
Here is a real Happy TRUE Story. I think you guys will like.....
I'm 2nd generation in my family to be learning Yang Tai Chi. My late Uncle use to practice outside my house when I was young. I remember that someone on our street took Karate and came over to our house because he wanted to spar with my late Uncle. My Uncle used "push" to wing this guy up and back a few feet. Totaly confused was this Karate Guy, being how he hit the ground and after that, and the match was over. I know that a push isn't recommended in a street fight, but I know that Tai Chi can be used effectivly in a fight.
Thanks again for all the replies to my post. I hope everyone in this thread are alright with each other.
Happy.

[Scotorabie]

In my opinion, Taiji can be applied in a myriad of ways on multiple levels of self-defense. In the world we inhabit today, it is far more useful in terms of self-defense against stress, disease, and orthopaedic problems than it could possibly be for fighting. However, in my opinion the majority of these benefits are so relevant to practicing the art as a fighting style that the two are relatively inseperable with the later being a motivator through which the former may be achieved as well.

I also believe that true self-defense has been a concept with realitivity little to do with actually fighting throughout the history of un-armed martial arts in particular. For example, even a millenium ago before projectile weapons were the main constituent of personal destruction, individual bravery and even individual skill had much less relevance to warfare than did the overall prowess of the group. Even then, personal combat was likely to be dominated by the use of weaponry and group tactics. I believe a quote from Douglas Wiles' book "Tai Chi's Ancestors: the Making of an Internal Martial Art" summates the relevance of individual combat ability (or self-defense as we like to refer to it) well when he qutoes a famous Chinese general as referring to skilled martial artists as "useless on the battlefield." The fact that we fight in groups and rely on technology is not a new concept, and neither is the concept of fighting ability having much less relevance to personal self-defense than other forms of self-protection.

In conclusion, if your question is "can you use Taiji for self-defense" the answer of anyone who can improve their well-being should be a unanimous "yes!" as the side-effects of training and their protective attributes in other fields is, in fact, the most important feature they provide.

[wiz cool c]

i used a technique the other day. I am not sure of the name of it i just started studying chen tai chi two mounths ago. Its the move where you push or strike to the chest with you palm and the other hand is open palm faceing the ground near your thie. I work in a gym and one of the wieght rooms leads to a basket ball court. As soon as i left the weight room a ball was flying twards my face and i lifted my right hand and struck the ball with my palm and sent it flying away.

[HuangKaiVun]

I agree with Scotorabie's points, but I do believe that learning how to fight is just as necessary now as it has ever been.

I teach women, and they are VERY conscious of the need for self defense. Every day they step foot outside their houses (and often INSIDE), they run the risk of being victims of violent crimes.

Groups are great, but people can get attacked nowadays on an individual basis. My own student was the victim of violent crime, and she was able to fight her way out. Whenever she was attacked, she was ALONE.

Tai Chi, done properly, does teach combat skills. Dodging and listening are two of the many skills that form this illustrious and effective martial art.

[Subitai]

If I may add a few cents WaterDragon,

About conditioning, It wasn't so much that he was in better shape, it was more likely due to:

# 1. You being in his element. In here/there he is comfortable and is/was undoubtibly breathing NATURALLY.

...I can almost bet, if you can remember or not that you were more uncomfortable and were HOLDING YOUR BREATH under many of the exchanges. That will take anybodies wind way, irregardless.

who ever is in the most comfortable position is always at an advantage.

People ask me what I would preffer?
** Supreme conditioning or Mental clarity(ie breathing natural, not nervous and very comfortable)

I say I'd rather be at 50% of my best condition and have perfect mental clarity for the fight, as opposed to Supreme conditioning and have the belly jitter bugs or any sort of anxiety.

It's true, any way you look at it. I prove it for myself often. It is the state we all try to achieve...yet it is difficult to master.

ease on,
"O"

[gazza99]

"Anyone in here use Tai Chi in self-defense"

Yes

What else is Tai chi chuan (the grand ultimate FIST) for? -Good health is by-product of good Neijia training.

Gary

[Water Dragon]

That makes a lot of sense. I'm guessing it was probably a combination of both.

[dnc101]

Originally posted by Water Dragon: " It's hard to deal with a boxer's jab because there's no real energy (momentum) to "take" from him."

The real energy in that jab is on the return. In the external arts the jab should return a lot faster than it went out, which is saying something. I've borrowed that energy a few times in sparing, with devastating results. I should tell you that I 'm a Kenpo student, but this principle was borrowed from a WC practitioner.

Say he throws a right jab. Don't try to block the incoming punch, it is too fast. Yeild to the right, moving the target, and do a blocking move to the jab which will catch his forearm on the way back. If a left (outward) block, let the force of the returning jab throw your relaxed arm as you guide your fist in a tight circle to his jaw- that's where it seems to want to end up naturally any how. The fist tightens as contact is made. Alternatively, try a right inward blocking motion and let him pull you into a whiping backfist to the TMJ with a simultaneous left punch to the lower ribs.

Our principles are a lot different from yours, but I bet you can make this work for you with a little practice and maybe a few modifications. Be careful with that first method (the outward block). I've never been able to completely control the following strike sufficiently to make it safe on a full speed and force jab. Because youare completely relaxed the fist is thrown into the target in a very quick, very tight circle.

I'm trying to visualize a TC fighter doing this. What I come up with is a Single Whip yielding right but inward on an oblique. The whip goes to the right jab and the push goes to check his left. I have no idea if that would work; it's just all I could come up with. If any of you can make use of this I'd be interested in hearing how you do it.

[HuangKaiVun]

This is how you block a boxer's jab in Taijiquan:

you get an arm up.

Or you get out of the way.

[Liokault]

you dont block in tai chi

[Brad]

what's the definition of a block?

[Chang Style Novice]

Hairsplitting. If you use a hand or an arm to keep a guy from hitting you by moving his arm out of a connecting trajectory, that's close enough to a block for me.

[HuangKaiVun]

How - and why - shouldn't a guy block in Taijiquan, Liokault?

[fa_jing]

The advantage that the jab provides, to the defender, is that you know it's going back no matter what. What I usually try to do is engage their arm by slapping (pak sao) with your lead hand at the opponents' wrist, as they pull back you actually try to beat them back to their face with your punch (lead arm). If you just slightly engage their jab, it is enough, most people who jab don't have enough structure to recover and hit you in the same forward motion. The question is whether they can make it back in time to interfere with your punch. Also, a lot of people that jab, are not used to someone trying to engage their jab, since the usual response is more of a dodge.

[Nexus]

There are 8 primary types of energy in t'ai chi, issuing is one of them. Blocking is most definetely something that t'ai chi players do. It is true many of the blocks are also attacks, they are in fact designed to counter an incoming attack, and block, neutralize, deflect (whatever word you want to call) it from hitting its target (that being you).

Ward-Off is a primary example.

[Liokault]

We dont block we mostly slip or lay back.

To block impliyes force against force....and i really belive that most blocks just dont work.

I have watched many differant styles of martial art spar at many differant levels and have seen very few blocks....most guys just slip or lay back.........and thats what we train in tai chi from day one.

The only exeption to this are big hay maker type swings and long round kicks, both of which we step into and smother as smoothly and with as little "force on force" as possiable.