Second "Energies"

[hairywhiteguy]

Not to long ago I had a discussion with a friend of mine about second energies and...chi (I use the term loosely)...

The idea was that when the strike came the defender "took" the first strike fine, but the second one... well the chi was already "consumed" by the first....

I have a understanding of this but I was wondering if anyone else from ba gua, hsing I, or tai chi had thoughts, ideas, answers?


thanx

[HuangKaiVun]

Last night, my student (Taijiquan) and I were sparring.

She was using her bridging hands to stop my incoming attacks and strike back at me.

After first contact, she would try to control my body so that I couldn't strike her again.

[Scotorabie]

:rolleyes:

Well, isn't one of the art's fighting strategies "when you stop something, whack back at the same time." So instead of there even being a second strike, shouldn't you ice your enemy in the meantime? I've also seen people who are good at this stuff stop two limbs at a time. I believe it's because they can connect into your structure off of the first limb and go from there (to the effect that a second blow is not physically possible to execute).

Just a thought,



;)

[HuangKaiVun]

That's nice work if you can get it.

On the other hand, opponents RESIST.

[hairywhiteguy]

The second strike comes from the same fist not pulling back, at all, just continuing through (for instance to the stomach) and the person takes the first but, the second energy "connects"

maybe I'm not explaining correctly but hey its worth a shot.

[HuangKaiVun]

I seriously doubt THAT was what your friend was talking about, hairywhiteguy.

My experience in training CMAs is that when a person attacks, his next attack can be neutralized by a proper defense to the first attack. At least this is what I'd imagine one means by "consuming" the 2nd strike.


However, your proposal does hold established medical merit - at least in modern Western medical science.

Attacking one of the 36 death points hard enough CAN have a temporal two-fold qi-busting attack.

This is what is known as the "delayed death touch". That's basically when you have effects from the strike days to weeks after the original injury.

For example, I know of a man who was broadsided in a car accident. At the scene, he was perfectly lucid if a bit banged up. The hospital decided to keep him overnight for observation, but he died in his sleep that evening. Nobody could figure out what did him in.

I wouldn't call the first strike "consumed" by the second - but that's just useless semantics to me.

[hairywhiteguy]

I appreciate all your help but I figured it out.

It's one technique used (in alot of styles) but I was speaking with a xsing I teacher and they noted that this technique that I was speaking of is often used in his art. All it boils down two is the hand strikes and if the opponent takes the punch by tightening the "abs", for instance, after he tightenings to recieve the blow he has to release the tension.... what he doesn't know is that there's "more there behind the punch"....the other/same strike.

I know this is a basic idea but it took me awhile....


thanx

[LapisCircle]

Hey hairwhiteguy, yes what you are talking about can happen and is somewhat common at higher levels. Whats happening is the same hand is delivering seperate pulses, and generaly the whole point is to take away a persons balance from first touch so they can't move, feel or think straight. The dangerous misconception that kung fu duels where even handed and where multiple blows where exchanged and some exciting climax was reached is ridiculous at best. When you take away someones balance and have a high degree of skill and can send energy and make it hurt with out winding up or even creating slight distance to deviler the next strike is to never give your attacker a chance in the first place.

[Scotorabie]

Just one question Huang-man. How do you know this dude died based on the same principle as Dim-Mak when nobody knew how he died?

[fa_jing]

I've seen this principle in many different CMA. Basically a strike than appears to have spent it's potential, but a shift in the body structure gives it the room to extend into another strike. It seems very difficult to execute, however. Double-pulse was a good description.

[HuangKaiVun]

True, Scotorabie.

Do you have an alternate hypothesis?

Besides, the medical literature DOES cite plenty of examples like this.

Black Belt magazine just ran an article on this stuff.

[hairywhiteguy]

Thanx to everyone for the purpousful replies that helped answer and comment on the inital question especially LAPISCIRCLE and FA_JING !!!

[kyle]

Harywhiteguy

Interestig post.

A very sensitive person might be able to absorb or deflect the first strike(energy wave),but two in a row will be very difficult to deal wiith.

Try that on a flexible target like a tree or a makiwara,one strike will not do much damage,but two in a row,properly connected will brake it without mayor effort.

Need to have good Fa Jing though.