Instructor titles?

[azwingchun]

I have been in the martial arts for some time now, and through the years I have ran into several different titles, more so in the Kung Fu arts than the Karate type styles. I have seen the obvious such as Sifu and Si Gung, etc., though I am curious about others such as Lo Si, Lau Shir, Jong Gau Lin, Jo Gau and the list goes on. I am just curious if any of you use these tiltes or do you use other titles than these. If so where do they come from and what are thier meanings? And are they traditional titles and meanings or have they just been added in recent times? The reason for this topic is as I have mentioned I have studied the arts for many years now and some of these titles I have only recently seen in the past 10 years or so. Also do any of you use the titles I mentioned above or are they used only in your school? :D

[Kung Lek]

hi-

for starts - Lo Si and Lau Shir are the same thing, different dialects of chinese.

They mean "elder teacher" and usually refers to a teacher that teaches things other than martial arts and that is older than you. Usually someone much older than you.

peace

Kung Lek

[azwingchun]

Thanks for the reply, I can't say I haven't heard what you mentioned about Lo Si and Lau Shir......though I have seen this term used in Kung Fu. And correct me if I am wrong Lau Shir is Mandarin and Lo Si is Cantonese? Thanks. ;)

[Kung Lek]

Hi-

yes, the sounds lau shir is mandarin and Lo Si is Canton.

My Si Fu has a Lo Si for Lion Dance. So there you go...Lion Dance and Kung Fu are connected in many ways.

But my sifu's Lo Si does not teach Kung Fu/martial arts.
In the school, Si fu's teacher was referred to as Si Gung by all of us students, Si fu's wife is Simo and a student who began study before another student was their sihing. Students in general had no "title".

The term Si Hing basically means "older brother" and in martial arts it means "someone who started learning before you".

sihing can also be sed as an instructors title while sifu still directs a school. You can't have more than one sifu in one school. It would be the same as having more than one father!
Still, there are many schools that have a few sifus in the same school. Personal choice I guess and the interpretation of the term.
Si Fu literally means "Teacher/Father" though and implies a bonded connection IE:Master/Student.

anyway, I'm digressing :D

peace

Kung Lek

[azwingchun]

Thanks for the reply, though it wasn't really what I was getting at. I am just curious about the not so known terms unlike the normal Sifu, Sihing and Si Gung. Such as Lo Si, Jo Gau, etc. I was looking for other titles given and maybe thier origins. Though it is still interesting to hear how other schools use the same title as Sifu just as you mentioned. :D

[fiercest tiger]

what about gau lin is that mean coach or instructor?

thanks :)

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[azwingchun]

I've seen Gau Lin, Jo Gau and Jong Gau Lin used on a Wing Chun Site. Do you know the actual meaning to these titles? :D

[friday]

this should mean chief instructor.

regards,

888

[Shaolin Master]

here are the definitions.

Gau = Teach
Lin = Practice

in chinese we say Lin to refer to training or practise. So we say lets "Lin Gong" in terms of southern (Gong Fu general term) or "Lien Wu" in terms of Northern (Wu Shu general Term).

Zong - could be many things but often it refers to the centre of practise (ie assoc. or school). Jo could refer to the first/most senior.


Often in chinese martial arts circles these terms are used instead of sifu. Classically (but not always) a school (Gwun) has only one Sifu, thus if there were two it would be awkward. Though many of the seniors could be teachers in their own right they would be acknowledged as Gau Lin (which is equivalent to instructor/coach...and in fact is more appropriate).

As an example the Chinwoo had many sifus BUT it was an Association rather than a Gwun.
Also as an example in Australia, Chen Yong Fa has the Hung Sing Gwun he is the sifu, though he doesn't teach and in nowadays terms his senior (who does the majority of teaching) is known as sifu (and most likely deservingly so) whereas in the past he'd be a Gau Lin.

Even Associations of the same school (ie. excluding invitational ones such as Chin Woo or your local/national TCMA association)...would have a head known as the sifu and very few others in the vicinity.

These things change and differ according to the customs and inherited habits of the chinese pending their origins and backgrounds.

In China, terms such as sifu were reserved for few and during the government intervention most teachers were known as Lau Si or Gau Lin not Sifu.

Anyways terms have changed with times and now everyone is a sifu. Soon everyone will be a Jo Si or Jong Si as well.

It doesn't matter as long as you love your martial arts no one matters. Keep an open mind and enjoy the wonderful fruits of our ancestors labours.

"Thy who sees beyond the circle of life can enjoy the understanding that is kept within their hearts"


Regards
Bai Long Fei

[Yuen]

"Laoshi" is in Mandarin Chinese (Putonghua) and spelled that way with pinyin romanisation.

[Kung Lek]

yes, spelled laoShi, pronounced "Lao Shir"

Just like Si Fu (see foo)-cantonese, shi fi (shir fu) manadarin.

peace

Kung Lek

[azwingchun]

I am somewhat familiar with these titles, and appreciate the info from everyone. I was just curious about who uses them and where they come from since not all schools use these terms as often as the more formal ones we see such as Sifu and Si Gung. I have been told the the Hung Gar systems use Jo Gau, Gau Lin and Jong Gau Lin in thier systems but haven't seen it personally. Once again thanks and any other info on these terms are highly appreciated. ;)

[azwingchun]

Again thanks for the info, though if Gau=Teach what does the Jong and Jo in front of Gau represent when speaking of instructor title, example: Jo Gau, Jong Gau Lin? ;)

[fiercest tiger]

did you change your chinese name? wasnt it shi chan long or something and what does the old and new one mean?

im jealous of you! :( i will learn my chinese language next year and we can talk then..hahaha cya

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[azwingchun]

I think my last post seemed like I was asking the same question over again, though I wasn't. What I am asking is that I have seen those same terms mentioned in my last post used for differnet levels of instructor in the same school. My question would be, do they actually represent different levels? Thanks, just curious. :rolleyes:

[Paul Skrypichayko]

No, the names dont mean anything specific. What the person is trying to convey is that they are some type of master or teacher, and you (or someone else) is the student. Careful if someone is trying to push all their titles and ranks upon you, it usually means they dont have much to back it up with.

I've never heard those other terms used for hung gar or any style of chinese martial arts.

The use of the letter "r" in "shi(r) fu" and "lao shi(r)" is actually not correct mandarin, but more of the local dialect comming through. There are also two different ways to write shi fu (si fu). One, like "Kung Lek" said means master/father, the other means master without the paternal connotation. I've heard older mainland Chinese use the second one, and use the word coach, most likely because of political stuff, trying to eliminate social class distinction, etc.

Jo Si (zhu shi?) and Jong Si (zong shi?) I think mean ancestral master/original master/founder. Something along that line.

"Shaolin Master", I haven't heard the term "lien wu" used before. The northerners I've talked to have used "lien gong" and "wu gong" when talking about martial arts, but then again, they weren't experts either. What other terms are different between the different regions of China? Yes, your Chinese is pretty good, did you grow up speaking it at home, did you study lots, or are you from China?

Hope that helps you "azwingchun". By the way, if you're looking for Wing Chun info, you might come across these mandarin terms wing chun/yong chun, muk yun jong/mu ren zhang (wooden dummy, lit. wood man post), yip man/ye wen, lee siu lung/li xiao long (bruce lee).

[azwingchun]

Hey thanks for the info, though I am not looking for Wing Chun terms, I had just happened to run across them and had never heard them used before. After speaking to a friend of mine he said that he had heard a Hung Gar school use these terms before but wasnt sure about thier meanings. A friend of mine spoke to a mutual friend who speaks Chinese and he said that he wasn't sure that these titles had anything to do with Kung Fu or if they actually meant instructor at all (though he speaks mostly Mandarin). But again I appreciate any info people can give. ;)

[iron_silk]

those terms are definitely not specific to kung fu and bit more modern than the good old traditional...si-fu si-hing stuff!

but it's been basically translated already...so it's not really a big deal

[Watchman]

Gau = teach, instruct

<img src=http://www.photoloft.com/view/exportImage.asp?s=jasc&i=8182827&w=128&h=128>

Lin = practice, perform

<img src=http://www.photoloft.com/view/exportImage.asp?s=jasc&i=8182798&w=128&h=128>

Jo = assist, help

<img src=http://www.photoloft.com/view/exportImage.asp?s=jasc&i=8182786&w=128&h=128>

Jong = principal, chief

<img src=http://www.photoloft.com/view/exportImage.asp?s=jasc&i=8182790&w=128&h=128>

Therefore,

Jo Gau = assistant instructor

Gau Lin = full instructor

Jong Gau Lin = chief instructor

The definition of these terms being "traditional" depends on your perspective. They are an evolvement of kung fu growing from the relatively closed environment of family or village styles to the more open teaching environment of athletic associations.

The terms also represent the instructor's relative knowledge and ability to teach same to students. A "sifu" is one who has learned the complete system and is able to fully teach it. The sublevels of instructors represent an ability to teach only authorized portions of the curriculuum as dictated by the sifu (which helps with issues of quality control).

For example, when Ip Man was active in the VTAA, he (and he alone) was Sifu. His advanced students who supervised the general classes (Wong Shun Leung, Ip Ching) were not "sifus", but referred to as "instructor" by the general students.

[azwingchun]

Thanks for the reply, this was more than I expected. Like I said I have seen this a few times and wasn't really sure of exact meanings, just that they were basically instructor levels. I was told that they represented beginner, intermediate amd advanced levels. Though I was looking to find exact meanings. Thanks again :D

[Paul Skrypichayko]

Watchman, I think the characters you posted for jo and jong are incorrect. Sorry, but I dont know how to post jpg files on here. The "jo/zu" character would be the one meaning ancestor. The "jong/zong" character would be the one meaning original or genuine. Both of those are used in the more common kung fu terms si jo and jong si.

[Watchman]

The characters I posted are a result of my reverse translation on zhongwen.com (trying to go from English to Mandarin to Cantonese to get an image of the characters).

If you'd like, you can email me the characters you have, I can post them, and you can add your description in a following post.

I'll also double check with a fried of mine who is fluent in Cantonese tomorrow night.

[sifuchuck]

Yes. I've actually encountered a kungfu school where the teacher referred to himself (and the students also reffered to him) as "Guru."

Takes me back to my ole kundalini yoga days...

chuck