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Kaitain(UK)
10-08-2001, 04:48 PM
2 months ago my wife was indecently assaulted (touched up through her clothes - not raped or anything like that thank god) by a 14 year old boy at 3pm in the afternoon in the entrance to our garage (a few streets away). She got home in a terrified state and told me and I went to find him. He was riding his bike in the same street. Infuriated I got hold of him and suddenly realised I was unable to strike him - whatever my anger, I'm not an animal that batters obviously disturbed children. I got someone to phone the police, someone recognised the boy and told his parents. Next thing I know I and my wife are undersiege in someones home by 10 screaming adults whilst waiting for the police. Eventually they arrive and escort my wife to the station to give a statement - I elect to follow on in my car after I arrange baby-sitting.

Upon arrival at the station, I was confronted by 6 people. They surrounded me and were very threatening. My training kicked in (thank God), and although I felt frightened I was able to maintain control and keep my head. When one of them went with both hands for my throat I evaded and moved to keep them to one side of me - the boys mother then tried to kick me in the nuts, again I evaded and kept my escape route open. At this point they backed off a bit as my behaviour was not following the model they expected. I knew that I could kill or injure them (4 men, 2 women) but again I found myself unable to do it. These people somehow knew where I lived and were threatening to burn my home down, hurt my kids etc. Yet still I didn't act - I wasn't paralysed by fear - I didn't really feel threatened by them.

Finally the police came outside and told me to leave - they would bring my wife home later.

My training probably saved me from a beating or a long prison sentence - incoming attacks did not cause me to lose control and I managed to stay in command of the situation. If I had lost it I have no doubt that I would be facing charges now OR I'd be in hospital.

However, it is one of the hardest things to reconcile with my ego and machismo. In my role as protector to my wife and children I feel that I should have battered the kid and his family, consequences be ****ed. My instructor asks me where the honour is in beating those that cannot protect themselves properly - I know what he means but there's that voice inside me that says 'coward'. I know what I felt and I know I made rational choices at the time.

2 months on I don't feel any better about it - part of me knows that I did the 'right' thing, part of me knows that I should have hurt them. I stood by as they threatened my home (not me personally for some reason) and called my wife various names.

On the 6th November we have to go through a court appearance - exposing ourselves to these scumbags yet again and facing their jobes,insults and threats.

Do I think it was worth it? Nope. I have my integrity and I behaved in a manner behoving a martial artist - but I also feel like I bent over and spread my cheeks.

Opinions appreciated

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

gazza99
10-08-2001, 04:54 PM
Thats just a loose/loose situation, but I think you handled it rather well.
Now You just must asses if they are willing to make good on the threats against your familiy and home. If so, and they begin to act on it, then obviously you must stop them, they have no right to bother your family and property. Good luck..
Gary

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)

Tigerdragon
10-08-2001, 05:02 PM
You controlled yourself, and defended yourself. If you had beaten these people that would have sunk you down to their level. Is that what you want. Now when you go to court this kid will get his punnishment, and possibly the family too. Considering the police saw the actions of those people outside to you. My guess this kid's problem is the environment he lives in. Hopefully if thats the case he will be removed from it and given help.

Just my thoughts

Assumption is the mother of tragedy. Just keep and open mind and be ready

Water Dragon
10-08-2001, 05:14 PM
I'd probably be in jail right now if I were you.

You may take my life, but you will never take my Freedom

JasBourne
10-08-2001, 05:16 PM
Talk to your lawyer (in your case, solicitor, I'm guessing) about the feasibility of getting a restraining order against the lot of them, and the advisability of laying the groundwork for an assault suit.

Kaitain(UK)
10-08-2001, 05:22 PM
I forgot to mention - when they said they knew where I lived, they may not have realised that the boy had told me his name and where he lived. I think that may be why there's been no comeback.

Also - part of his bail conditions are that if he or his family/friends harass us in anyway he goes back into custody

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

EARTH DRAGON
10-08-2001, 05:23 PM
I commend you for your self control. It is very hard to judge what you should do in a situation based on repercussions in the future, most people act before they think and it usually ends them up in trouble, again it is very hard to do but under the circumstances you are better off leaving it up to the police

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

Fish of Fury
10-08-2001, 05:28 PM
what a pack of arseh0les!

sounds like you behaved well, but it must be frustrating.
i guess maybe you should look into whatever avenues are available to you legally to get these clowns out of circulation.

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

LEGEND
10-08-2001, 05:34 PM
KAITAN...get your instructor and your training partners and MALE friends to escort you to court...show them a sense of POWER...have your MALE friends eyeball them...look them up and down...any type of remarks will be countered...really...well we know where u live too...or for example...if u have a friend in law enforcement...have him in civilian clothes...any threats...then of course the officer will step forward..."u threatening me...I'm a police officer.". Trust me...they were scared too...cause they didn't attack u physically.

A

SLC
10-08-2001, 05:58 PM
First, I agree with everyone else Kaitain, that your actions were impeccable. But, obviously, you are not happy with your performance.

"I... feel like I bent over and spread my cheeks."

"In my role as protector to my wife and children I feel that I should have battered the kid and his family, consequences be ****ed."

I would point out that it appears that all the bad feelings you have about this are in your own head alone. No one else is saying you should have acted differently. You are doing this to yourself and maybe you should give yourself a break.

One thing you can do is to let yourself go back through it all ONE MORE TIME, in detail, with the goal of learning ANYTHING useful about it. Then put it away. Quit going back to it. Quit reliving it. Quit doubting yourself and second guessing everything you did. If you can't learn anything from it, it is pointless.

Maybe imagine that it was one of your friends, or someone you don't even know that went through this. What should they have done differently? Would you question their actions?

When you do this, look at your actions from the cold point of pure effectiveness. The law has looked this over and is seeing it the same way you did. That is a major success. No one is physically hurt. Still good. You were totally ready for a physical confrontation had it been necessary. You instinctually knew it wasn't. How much better can it be???

The main hanging point is that you did not use violence. How would the lot of you and your family be better now if you had? Certainly, there may have been some pleasure in it. But pleasure is a luxury and can be expensive. Who would pay... your family?

There would also probably be remorse in it. Are you ready to imagine how you would feel now, had you severely beaten the boy? Broken jaw, concusion, broken ribs, probably will lose an eye. Some brain damage. You are physically capable of it. Not much pride in that, though, I would think.

Kaitain, if there is anything useful about the incident, claim it and use it. Then leave the rest. Put your doubts in a room and lock it. Quit going back. ;)

Stumblefist
10-08-2001, 05:59 PM
Kaitan:
Can i ask a few questions?
Why were the group so angry?What did they say and blame you for?
Were there any ethnic, economic or racial differences between you and them? why are they different from you and your wife?
Did you hold the boy for the police to come?
Where were the police when you were at the station?
Are you pressing charges against the boy?
Are you pressing charges against any of the group for threatening or attemted assaut?
....
Just trying to get the full picture.
Sounds like a bunch of A's and you handled yourself well.
Give them all the full shotgun with the legal apparatus. They all seem to deserve it.
regards

"Lost in a Roman...wilderness of pain
And all the children are insane
All the children are insane
Waiting for the summer rain, yeah...
This is the end, My only friend, the end
It hurts to set you free
But you'll never follow me"

Kaitain(UK)
10-08-2001, 06:10 PM
Apparently, the boy's father had killed himself 2 months previously. I assume that the family saw my wife and I as a convenient focus for all of their anger/grief. Apparently my presence at the police station was 'to wind them up'. At the time I believe they were under the impression that some big geezer had threatened their poor lost soul and stolen his dead fathers bike.

No neither I nor they are from a racial minority of this country. They are just scum.

I held the boy until he gave me his name and address - I kept his bike and told him he could have it back once the police got there. Apparently the bike belonged to his father - I assume he ran home or to a friend and told his mother that that some big bloke had stolen his bike. He tried to get his bike a few times so I stood in the way and put my arm out - he walked into it a few times and then gave up.

I chose not to press charges against the family as I felt that would only lead to some sort of ongoing feud. I also felt that it was an emotionally charged situation for them and that it would serve no purpose to take things further.

My wife and I have chosen to pursue charges against the boy due to the nature of the offence. If he believes he can get away with it he may do the same again. We have a 12-year old daughter - if it had been her, she may not have been able to deal with the boy the way my wife did.

I reported the assault/threats to the police in order to ensure the bail conditions.

I have no idea why the police took so long to get outside - it was at least 1 full minute (felt like an eternity) before anyone came outside. I assume they didn't want to handle the group alone.

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

Ryu
10-08-2001, 07:02 PM
I can understand your feelings a great deal.
I, myself, have this obsession with being able to be protector, the hero, etc. And I'm not even married.
In my darker days (and I'm still trying to fight it it seems as the feelings have come back)I have tried to counter feelings of "turning the other cheek too much" with intimidation, and threatening behavior. I know from experience that fighting or scaring someone who I label as an "*******" doesn't make me feel better in the least. :(

However, I'm not sure I would have the same control you did in this situation. I would like to think I would, but I cannot be sure.
Like the others I applaude and respect your self-control. It's a mark of a real martial artist.
You have said that YOU feel you should have done something more... talk to your wife. :) It's her feelings that matter in this. If she feels safe with you, and safe in the situation now, you have most definately done your job, and are someone to be really be admired. I'm sure that your wife and daughter DO in fact see you as their protector. Don't let those **** doubts of anger and "failure" take that fact away from you.

Take care,
They've been warned once. If they continue, they take on the responsibility of what happens to them.

Ryu

http://www.jkdu.co.za/pics/logos/jkduhpma1.gif


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

honorisc
10-08-2001, 07:02 PM
Your objective was to correct a bad behavior (you say).

It seems that you were/are jealous of anyone having what you think is yours or you were trying to appeaze yor wife. That reaction sounds more towards posessive and your feeling offended.

As a parent, handling him as a child who did wrong is appropriate (for future reference). But Respect of posessions goes with that. Otherpeoples children are handled from their parents. Verbally scold/ correct the offender then go to the parent's. Not knowing where he lived? A grab by the arm or carry him asking him to direct you to his parents'. Even asking others where he lives...

You were offended about your wife being touched-up (and she had propper business fa few blocks from your garage, that she could come to you telling of her violation(being violated)). They would be-upset, as might you if some woman took something of your daughter's or man handled your daughter and badgered her for where she lives (unless you explained to the boy who you were, you were just a bloke grabbing him (and stealing from him his beloved recently dead father's possession of great~ sentimental value, tempering the trauma of the loss of a roll model and fourteen year anchr of the Heart~; not the Husband of the woman he tried to (sneak a) feel.

You did Very well with the attacks on you by the six. Probablly because you had been there before, in your mind. Wondering what to when people are upset but not at you. And what happens when you respond equally to someone peacocking--they get hurt then point at you. How it started gets over-looked and you're the bad-guy. So you did so well because you were there before.

Don't worry about not hitting-ish. When you are actually threatened an they "deserve it," Your training will kick-in then too.

You should get your point out about what was in your mind about what your Wife said happened, and...be honest be try to mention that if the boy was whatever enough to do this to a woman, you were afraid for what he might do to your twelve year-old-daughter...What this realization does to you that your family isn't safe just a few blocks from Home is whatever, might go towards what they do to the boy.

Too much legal stuff isn't required for this~ it seems like a case of parenting, speculation, and appreciation of family.

The boy might not be a deviant or pervert, so don't condemn a boy for being male. Your concern of your daughter's safety, is admireable and an indication that she is precious to you~

I hope it goes well enough for all involved.

[This message was edited by No_Know on 10-09-01 at 10:24 AM.]

origenx
10-08-2001, 07:09 PM
Well, it's no surprise the kid's family was a bunch of idiots as well - most problems do start at home. Like father, like son... I'm only glad your wife didn't not get "seriously" assaulted.

jimmy23
10-08-2001, 07:18 PM
As protector of your family its your responsibilty to stay out of jail, at home, where you can protect them. You did great, pat yourself on the back.


"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

JWTAYLOR
10-08-2001, 08:45 PM
Jimmy is right. That's why you just hire people to beat up kids.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

Stumblefist
10-09-2001, 06:36 AM
Thanks Kaitan:
I can see the picture a little more now.
The kid crossed the line, that is serious. Even if prosecution can't be successful (a minor and all that) it needs to be official in case he makes a career out of it.
--------
When you deal with A's on the street try to respect their screwed up model of the universe, it helps you deal with them. Don't show intolerance of that model, get inside their guard not outside. That's only if you can't immediately whack them :) .
...
I forgot.I have had experience in court (hee hee comes back to me now)... Look 100 percent sucessful, wear your IBM power suit, get a tan from a weekend in the canaries or whatever. Be 100 percent pro and 100 percent cool and unruffled on the stand. They will attack, assassinate your character, expect it, don't react, never respond unless asked a question, don't respond to statements, only directly answer questions.
If they find out you know CMA they will ask you about it and make out like you are mad dog killer, if you can get away with it say you used to practice ...something.. but that was a long time ago.
Same for your wife, be prepared for the character assassinations and obout everything work, sex, marriage everything. Also thy may try to indimidate you outside the courtroom, don't make a big issue out of it, just stare them down.
...
Q. do poice carry guns in UK now?

"Lost in a Roman...wilderness of pain
And all the children are insane
All the children are insane
Waiting for the summer rain, yeah...
This is the end, My only friend, the end
It hurts to set you free
But you'll never follow me"

Gigante
10-09-2001, 11:48 AM
The main concern is to stop that boy from molesting someone else, or worse.

Kaitain(UK)
10-09-2001, 11:57 AM
I wasn't expecting this kind of response - I guess I'm a bit jaded these days and consequently I was waiting for a bunch of abuse for acting the way I did.

Many thanks to you all - it's given me great comfort and put a few demons to rest. I only wish I'd posted earlier instead of trying to bury the thoughts I've been having.

I will let you know what happens at court.

Thanks - it's times like this that show me that there a lot of good people here.

Paul

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

jameswebsteruk
10-09-2001, 03:15 PM
Stumblefist,

No, in the UK the police do not routinely carry guns. Only a tiny proportion of the force have firearms training and are authorised to use them, and only in specific circumstances.

There is an Armed Response Vehicle with two trained officers for every large town or city, sometimes more than one for large cities, eg. Manchester, London.

Kaitain, I agree with everyone else, you did great.

What did the Zen Master say to the hot dog vendor?
Make me one with everything.