How to stop opponent from disenagaging.

[fa_jing]

Picture this: You square off with your opponent. You rush in and nail him with two punches to the head. You're just about to finish him off when all of a sudden, he leaps backward. Assume he has good footwork and balance and knows how to disengage with a burst. In my experience, if you're of similar levels and you're concerned with defending his strikes, you won't catch it in time to stop him from disengaging. What do you all do to stop it? Is it not reasonable to think that even though you've hit him, you may not have broken his structure.

I am thinking that clipping his legs when he's on the way out is one option, also if your sensitivity and watchfulness is high enough, you might be able to keep up with him as he moves back? Definitely sparring will help you develop your options, since it is more in-and-out than real fighting.

[red5angel]

Why wouldnt you just keep moving forward? Also, you mentioned sensitivity, I think that is key.

[fa_jing]

Why wouldn't you just keep moving forward? Because the opponent has "burst" away from you, and if you just move forward like you normally do, you're opponent will have already disengaged.

[hunt1]

NIce topic havent seen one in awhile.

Remember WC isnt limited to the arms. You want to use both arms and a leg when you close. If you position your lead leg correctly the person will not be able to burst back and end in a good position . It also depends on how you were taught.Those who favor a longer bridge postion will be less likely to gain control of the opponents leg thus will have more of a problem with a disengagment.

[TjD]

step on his feet

see what happens when he "bursts" away then :)

anyways, you should be able to burst forward as well or better than someone can burst backwards. if that fails and hes out of your arms reach, kick him and close in

[teazer]

I'd say the ball is in their court. Are they going to come back and play or run off?

[[Censored]]

Well, of course they will run away from a kung-fu fighter! :) Other options include kicking their front supporting leg, tripping them, or grabbing while you hit so they cannot escape.

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by hunt1
If you position your lead leg correctly the person will not be able to burst back and end in a good position

I think that's a key. Interfering with their legs on the way out seems to be a good way to stop it. It is a specific awareness that must be trained.

I think one of the dangers in following, if his structure and balance are NOT broken, is that you might walk into something.

[S.Teebas]

I think one of the dangers in following, if his structure and balance are NOT broken, is that you might walk into something.

If his body mass is rapidly moving backwards, and yours is rapidly moving forwards... i would think you're at a very big advantage. It difficult to generate power when your moving in the opposite direction of your target.

If you are sticking then you dont need to think about following.

[Wingman]

You square off with your opponent. You rush in and nail him with two punches to the head. You're just about to finish him off when all of a sudden, he leaps backward.

I think you will have a good idea when your opponent will disengage. In the situation above, your opponent is clearly in a disadvantageous position. His best option is to disengage. Knowing this, you make "plans" on what to do the moment he does disengage. These "plans" are already mentioned in the above posts (no need to mention them).

The important thing is you know WHEN he will disengage. This is called "foreknowledge". That is, knowledge of your opponent's dispositions, and what he means to do.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Wingman
I think you will have a good idea when your opponent will disengage. In the situation above, your opponent is clearly in a disadvantageous position. His best option is to disengage. Knowing this, you make "plans" on what to do the moment he does disengage. These "plans" are already mentioned in the above posts (no need to mention them).

Wing Chun should be learned to be spontaneous, not planned. That's one of its main characteristics.


The important thing is you know WHEN he will disengage. This is called "foreknowledge". That is, knowledge of your opponent's dispositions, and what he means to do.
If you have foreknowledge of your opponent's moves, then please share your time machine with us. :) Could I use it Saturday night?

This whole discussion is based on the premise that you let your opponent go. What should be happening is that he is trapped as you attack him. You control him.

One principle Ken Chung cites from Leung Sheung is Sik sî nè sáu---literally, eat all your hands (I take away all your hands.)

Regards,

[[Censored]]

If you have foreknowledge of your opponent's moves, then please share your time machine with us.

Any move is a sequence of smaller moves; so if you know the playbook, you can "see the future". No big deal. :)

[Wingman]

Wing Chun should be learned to be spontaneous, not planned. That's one of its main characteristics.

I agree, WC should be spontaneous. Please note that I enclosed the word "plans" in quotation marks because I don't have a better word to use. What I mean't by "plans" are the answers given by other posters (moving forward, clipping the legs, step on his feet, etc). These are what they plan or intend to do once the opponent disengages. Right? If you know when he will disengage, then you can implement your "plan" to prevent him from doing so.


If you have foreknowledge of your opponent's moves, then please share your time machine with us. Could I use it Saturday night?

Yes certainly.:) If you have read my posts on the thread "Chi sao as chess", I likened chi sao as a conversation. When you attack, you are asking a question. When you counter the attack, you are answering the question. The answer could be anything; and you may not have an idea what the answer will be. But if you ask him a "leading question", he will be forced to answer the way you want him to answer. If you are raining punches on the opponent's head, he may be forced to disengage. That's how you know that he'll disengage because you forced him to do so.

In order to have foreknowledge of your opponent's moves, you must also know your opponent. If your opponent is a WC, then most probably, he will disengage in this situation. If your opponent is a grappler, he may try to bring the fight to the ground. If you know your opponent, you will know what he is most likely to do.

Of course, you cannot know for certain (100%) what your opponent will do. There are so many factors to consider. This system may not be foolproof; because no system is proof against a fool.:D

[jesper]

Do you have contact with his lead leg. If so you should be able to detect when he tries to disengage. Then its "simply" a matter of disrupting his stance with your leading leg. one way is to lock and trip his front leg, but I only think that will work quickly enough if you use 0/100 stance. You better check that with other lineages.
Sounds simple doesnt it :)

By the way if you hit him twice to the face and he is still able to think rationally, you really need to work on your punches ;)

Oh and lastly, train your footwork really hard. Its one of the most important aspect of combat.

[monkey man]

Originally posted by Grendel


One principle Ken Chung cites from Leung Sheung is Sik sî nè sáu---literally, eat all your hands (I take away all your hands.)



Could you elaborate on this quote, please?
:)

[Grendel]

Originally posted by monkey man
Could you elaborate on this quote, please? :)

Sik sî nè sáu is the ability to keep your opponent close while sensing and negating his attacks or retreat. As someone on another thread mentioned, your opponent's hands are asking your hands a question, to which your answer is dependent on what listening with your hands for what your opponent's intent/energy tells you.

How to stop opponent from disengaging

"Picture this: You square off with your opponent. You rush in and nail him with two punches to the head. You're just about to finish him off when all of a sudden, he leaps backward. Assume he has good footwork and balance and knows how to disengage with a burst "
The thread's postulated scenario, suggests a violation of (my knowledge of) Wing Chun principles, resulting from being either too greedy or too afraid, or both. After establishing a bridge, one should always stay in contact, "taking away the hands" that your opponent offers you (eat his hands). In my Wing Chun, we sense the opponent's energy, advancing or retreating, and trap him, taking away his hands, and so controlling him, keeping only enough energy to maintain our position and structure, and dropping the excess energy without throwing our opponent away.

My first reply got eaten by the board, so I hope this makes it through this time. :D

Regards,

[Martial Joe]

I did that with my teacher once and got kicked.

When the person moves backwords you keep them going that way.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Martial Joe
I did that with my teacher once and got kicked.

So? Is your post out of sequence or are you replying to me? Does everything you try on your teacher work the first time? :rolleyes: What was he doing to you? Just beating on you? Then you need to find someone who can teach you Wing Chun so you can defend yourself. I'm unfamiliar with Boston, so you're on your own in that regard.


When the person moves backwords you keep them going that way.
Sure, if that's all you know. :rolleyes:

Actually, joking aside, I think you should go back and try to understand the post. I may not have been clear, so if you have a question, I'll try to answer it. :) Or, better yet, ask your instructor to explain it to you.

Regards,

[AndrewS]

Umm,

why not train to deal with this? You're bringing up an issue not of technique but training method.

There are a number of elements that go into keeping pressing here without getting hit.

First (and I speak as a 0/100 guy), the arms and lead leg should be pressing into the opponent, so that one is used to immediately going in without leaning or having a broken second- With legs, drill this leg to leg, one person jumping back either to lead low kick, or change and rear kick. Get this so the gap can be closed with a single half-step, then get the feel for a rapid long disengage, which tends to require a full step (step through with the rear leg) to catch up. After this, vary the two.

Get the same 'pressure' into the arms.

Drill both the above closing on focus mits, where your partner changes the range as you close.

Get used to intercepting strikes *while you are in motion*, not static, to handle the hands coming flying at you as the other person goes back- probably not too powerful, but there are folks who can hit hard while going back (something I train to do as a just in case).

Combine the above elements with a partner who feeds you attacks while you press him, constantly hitting lightly, with your partner pushing you back, stepping out, and jumping back to make space to attack.

These seem to be nice ways to develop some of the skills you're looking for- and that's what you need for this, skills, not techniques.

Later,

Andrew

[fa_jing]

Principles would be nice, too.