KIAI!/sounds in kung-fu technique

[Former castleva]

Everybody has seen a "karate movie" in which someone flips out and screams while striking,more experienced know the meaning of this,how it happens and it does in dojo.
Kiai is much appreaciated in arts like karate but is not often spoken about in KF,or do I go all wrong?
Besides breathing out,using kiai (picking this from japanese it can mean "fighting spirit" but is commonly referred to as a "sound" in MA originally said to have used to crush opponent´s confidence and guard)
is believed to strengthen one´s attack and focus the energies,this is not supported by science but is used anyway and is there for reason.
Here I´ll be showing some examples of what I´ve picked up from the way.:
In white crane there are many sounds,one such sound is "sa" which is a "mean" sound which describes attitude of no-mercy and spirit of killing.
There seem to be various sounds for different attacks which seem to fit to kung-fu category.
Here´s some hung kuen/gar feeling then;
While striking with a crane beak,one uses the sound "op" meant to focus energy from solar plexus (known as middle dan tien so I just wonder if it has something to do with that...) and lead it to hands.
For tiger claw there is "fu" when using single tiger claw strike somehow drawing power from abdomen/dan tien to hand(s) again.

This thread only scratches the surface of this subject and I hope we can make some discussion out of this.
I´d like to ask if you think vocal sounds should be included and if "oh yeah" should they be included in combat application and do they have value?
Any single input appreciated.

[No_Know]

Fu can mean tiger but is not the sound I recognize as being made for a tiger claw strike. Hua is the sound for tiger claw strikes in Kung-Fu (wide standard).

Besides breathing properly and intimidation there is reassurance. The sound should build confidence in actual combat.~ Breathing properly refers to aligning the internal structure with the external structure during particular strikes.

[norther practitioner]

There are a few sounds in a couple of our forms, but not many. In our fourth fist form there is a hing ha....hing on inhale, ha on the exhale.....a few hop in some forms I learned in another system a while back.

[Felipe Bido]

Choy Li fut has 5 types of sound. And in Xinyi Liuhequan there's the "Yi" sound.

I have heard some Xingyi practicioners yell "Hua!" while striking. But it's like an expelling of air, and not a real "yell"

[joedoe]

Ngor Chor has a shout similar to the Kiai in Karate. We usually use it when practising Tai Chor forms.

We also use the Lion's roar, and the Tiger's roar in various forms.

[Shadow Dragon]

The way that I understand the proper Kiai from my JMA buddies, is that it is supposed to be quiet more hissing like.

None of the big screaming you see now, it is supposed to be a way of channeling and focusing the Ki/Chi/Qi.

But than BL was also known for making lots of noises in his movies.

Cheers.

[Lisa]

"None of the big screaming you see now, it is supposed to be a way of channeling and focusing the Ki/Chi/Qi."


I can see why the yelling would be used, as far as focusing your breath and such.

But when I took Tae Kwon Do as a child, they told me to yell. They never explained why. I had no idea why I was doing it, and it didn't seem like many people there did. And at tournaments I've seen people (mostly lower level karate or tkd practitioners) yell for no apparent reason in sparring. Not a focused yell, but a big "AHHHHHHHH!" as they charged at their opponent. I'm assuming they did it because someone at their school told them to do it but never explained why, as was the case in my tkd class. Or they thought it was intimidating... it occasionally happened in rugby games when I used to play (which didn't work that well because they'd be out of breath by the time they got to you).

What I'm wondering is, is it more common to hear just the big screaming than it is to hear people actually make the noises for a reason?

Lisa

[Shadow Dragon]

I think that a lot of the screaming is now done for flash during demoes and they like.

There are acutally 2 forms of Kiai, quiet ones and the loud ones that are supposed to shock/immobilise the Opponent and gain you a slight advantage.

Cheers.

[SevenStar]

from my experience, there a several different yells used in CMA. the various yells correspond to various organs in the body. some of the sounds are

ha
hey
oy

there are others to, but I can't think of them right now.

[TaoBoy]

Originally posted by Lisa
I can see why the yelling would be used, as far as focusing your breath and such.

But when I took Tae Kwon Do as a child, they told me to yell. They never explained why. I had no idea why I was doing it, and it didn't seem like many people there did.

Yelling makes you breathe. Often people will forget to breathe in a fight scenario, so yelling makes sure you are still sucking in air.

Just watch a kendo match - they yell at each other all the time. Very interesting!!

Back to the original question :-

On heavy strikes we exhale with a sound that sounds a lot like 'eight' but it is somewhat truncated. It's just the sound we make when the air is quickly exhaled. Surprisingly enough, when we toured to China, a Shaolin school instructor told us to use the same sound.

[anton]

Yeah I always assumed the yelling in kendo was to put the opponent off.

But some of the "kiai"ing in JMA (particularly Karate) kata demos is just ridiculous, the kiai will go for a bout 10 seconds after the punch it accompanied has finished, the guy jst stands there with his fist extended going: "...aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiii"

[TaoBoy]

Originally posted by anton
Yeah I always assumed the yelling in kendo was to put the opponent off.


Yeah, probably that too. But the breathing is definitely a good side-effect.



But some of the "kiai"ing in JMA (particularly Karate) kata demos is just ridiculous, the kiai will go for a bout 10 seconds after the punch it accompanied has finished, the guy jst stands there with his fist extended going: "...aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiii"

....then turns his back while still yelling and holding hand up and doesn't realise that his reverse punch was actually deflected as his opponent scored with a back fist to the head. lol. :D

[Helicopter]

In our schools version of Tit Sin Kuen (Iron wire boxing) there's 16 sounds. I'm not at that level yet so I know v. little about them.
But they are;
The sound of reverse abdominal breathing,
5 animals sounds and
5 emotional sounds each with a yin and yang aspect.

We've used the 'herrT!' sound in class to focus a punch but I don't where it fits into the 16.

I think I read somewhere that the Japanese 'Kiai' was in the upper lungs and therefore considered bad practice by CMA. (?)

[Crimson Phoenix]

In white crane the sound is used in conjonction with the jing to givee it a certain quality...let me explain: first there is the sound that is formed when exhaling from the bottom of the lungs during jings, which sounds like "hoch" in german...it is the raw noise of air that flows wen your ribcage is totally relaxed even if you do a very strong jing. Some praticionners of white crane add a sort of singing, hissing quality to it, imitating the cry of a crane. It usually is quite surprising for the opponent (who wonders what the hell is going on). Also, this kind of singing hiss can be used when inhaling (all the other ones are mostly used on exhale) and/or blocking, in a kind of fashion to store energy, or maybe get the best synchronisation between breath and technique to render it effective...Here's for the offensive sounds, used on jings: there is the "HA!" sound, that is much yang, it's the common shout during fajing...there's "HE!", that is somewhate more yin than "ha", used to issue jing yet saving energy for later just in case the attack is not decisive or there's a counter or anything.
Then there's the much feared "SA!" sound. It sounds like the way "death" or "die" is pronounced in many chinese languages, and has a vicious hissing quality to it...you just can't use the SA sound and smile, its hissing makes you look vicious and feel like it. It kinda twists your mental scheme into a "either you or me" state of mind...I guess that's what makes it efficient, it seems to raise up your emotional level to a cold, determined killing mood. It is a much unfriendly and uncourteous sound, that should never bee used during training or sparring. The legend says that it was very rude and offfensive to use this sound, and that it was used ONLY in the case that you wanted your opponent to die, and wanted him to know it.
That's all I know about that topic, and I'm aware that there must be a lot I totally ignore and haven't heard of in my white crane sub-style.
Also, there is a white crane substyle called "singing (or shouting) crane" that heavily enforced different sounds for different jings and has a whole theory about that (hence the name I guess). But I don't know anything about it.
I hope this little bit of infos gave you any insights...

[Sho]

There are various yelling expressions in for example Choy Lee Fut, such as "waak" for a tiger claw strike and "dik" for a kick.

Usually in wushu, more specifically Changquan and weapon forms, these sound expressions are made with the clothes and weapons rather than yelling. So the "kiais" are replaced with swooshy-slashy effects generated using the uniform and the weapons.

[Former castleva]

Thanks a lot for the replies.
There is a bunch of stuff I´d like to stick to and chat about but right now I´d like to say that sound "wah" is used when striking with double tiger claw,a bit like "waak" eh?
I could dig those white crane kiai´s up from "shaolin white crane" book,maybe I´ll do.Those that you mentioned Crimson Phoenix,sound familiar.

Couple of things I think and feel like I know about kiai is that those long screams you mentioned that kids pull off while imitating Bruce Lee&MA are said to be of no value,while short explosive sound like "ah" "ha" whatever is good,and in kicking slightly longer like "ee" or something,phonetics seem to matter.
Then again kiai is good for creating a mental disturbance,temprorary shock to your opponent which you can use to your advantage,and it it is said to help with fighting your own fear.

[MightyB]

I used to practice Yama****a style Shorin Ryu. We used a kiai that sounded like "hoots". My instructor explained that it was supposed to be gutteral and come from the diaphram/dan tien region. If it hurt the vocal chords or came from the chest, you were doing it wrong. The idea was more than just the usual confidence/intimidation thing, he explained that I was trying to empty the lungs so that I couldn't get the wind knocked out of me when I was attacking and vulnerable to a counter attack.

Sometimes I feel myself exhaling hard through the nose like a boxer when striking, and grunting out a kiai like sound when I execute a holding/clinching type of throw. It feels good to do it and helps with intimidating the opponent and gives me confidence. I'll grunt out some ol' "hoots" and "ha's" if I'm executing a powerful strike or kick.

[MightyB]

That's funny. You can't write "Yamash i ta" on this forum. :rolleyes:

[Leto]

Most of the yelling in kendo is calling out the target of the strike as it is being performed.

'Men!'(helmet) 'Kote!'(gauntlet) 'Do!'(chest plate) 'Tsuki!' (throat)

The rest of the yelling is to intimidate the opponent, and build/show your fighting spirit.

In karate, our kaia was always a short, loud burst, accompanying a single strike, without any particular sound it was supposed to have. It wasn't yelling "kiai", or anything else. Just a shout.

[zen_celt]

In the Japanese arts, I have been told that the kiai is to focus the breathing and energy into your strike. The idea is to breathe from the abdomen and focus the internal energy into your attack the moment you make contact. this tightens the abs and fist sending more external force into your strike, reminds you to breathe, expels all energy in the body at impact, and freaks out your opponent. There are stories in JMA of masters who could paralyze opponents with their kiai and even awake people from unconsciousness.
As far as the hiss, I think that's to expel energy during slow training movements(at least that's how we use them) and to keep from using all your force during a sparring match. I'm not sure about that though.
In CLF, we had different sounds for different strikes, partly to focus energy and, I was told, to identify who you were in combat. Supposedly CLF has style specific sounds that would immediately clue in other CLF students as to who you were.
In practicality of modern, untrained, combat, the yell wakes you up, gets you breathing and freaks out the opponent. This was the purpose of the Confederate scream during the U.S. Civil War. In the days of the celts, there were clan and race war cries that scared the heck out of the opposing armies(they did other, more frightening things too) and got oxygen flowing. It also can add some strength to wha you're doing as it mat aid in adrenaline. Yelling in combat is a natural thing and it would seem that MA harnesses this natural phenomenon in a structured fashion.
Just my two cents
-ZC

[Turiyan]

Here´s some hung kuen/gar feeling then;
While striking with a crane beak,one uses the sound "op" meant to focus energy from solar plexus (known as middle dan tien so I just wonder if it has something to do with that...) and lead it to hands.
For tiger claw there is "fu" when using single tiger claw strike somehow drawing power from abdomen/dan tien to hand(s) again.

This thread only scratches the surface of this subject and I hope we can make some discussion out of this.
I´d like to ask if you think vocal sounds should be included and if "oh yeah" should they be included in combat application and do they have value?
Any single input appreciated. [/B]

Why so interested? Writing a book?

The middle dan tien is near the heart, not the solar plexus. The sound for the middle dan tien is the Hah sound. Like when you explode the yin heart chi into the jing.... But i'm sure you knew that already..

The hah sound resonates with the heart energy, and the heart is the true center, and is therefore the center of all the organ sounds. So you really only need to know one sound. The one that lies at the center of the emotional spectra.

The six sounds are based on basic speech/vowel sounds. Thats it. No secrets. "Forget what you heard".

Real power sounds have at least 3 dimentions with a hidden 4th dimention, kind of like the "hidden" 5th/6th/7th intervals. Like the silent M vowel in sanskrit, which is about 639cps (eg. G#).

With out a center, there is no music. Drumming isnt music. Its rhythm to produce harmony (read as "so the other idiots can figure out what to do and when")

The true center eliminates all sound. Crystalized sound is matter. Dissonant vibrations cause dissolution of matter (Ie: Sharp 5th interval eg. Diabolus in musica). The cycle is going up or down. This is why the Taoists said that "down-up" is the cycle of man, and since man dies, this is not a "Taoist way".

In other words, the most powerful sound is silence, or rather not-sound. That is what is meant by "truth is better than silence".

"Chanting the (primordial sound) is better than sacrifice, if inaudible, it is 100 more powerful than chanting, if merely mental, it is regarded as 1000 more powerful than chanting"
--Manusmritmi

"Drummers are arrogant because there are so few of them"
--Unknown guitar player

[Former castleva]

"Why so interested? Writing a book?

The middle dan tien is near the heart, not the solar plexus. The sound for the middle dan tien is the Hah sound. Like when you explode the yin heart chi into the jing.... But i'm sure you knew that already..

The hah sound resonates with the heart energy, and the heart is the true center, and is therefore the center of all the organ sounds. So you really only need to know one sound. The one that lies at the center of the emotional spectra.

The six sounds are based on basic speech/vowel sounds. Thats it. No secrets. "Forget what you heard".

Real power sounds have at least 3 dimentions with a hidden 4th dimention, kind of like the "hidden" 5th/6th/7th intervals. Like the silent M vowel in sanskrit, which is about 639cps (eg. G#).

With out a center, there is no music. Drumming isnt music. Its rhythm to produce harmony (read as "so the other idiots can figure out what to do and when")

The true center eliminates all sound. Crystalized sound is matter. Dissonant vibrations cause dissolution of matter (Ie: Sharp 5th interval eg. Diabolus in musica). The cycle is going up or down. This is why the Taoists said that "down-up" is the cycle of man, and since man dies, this is not a "Taoist way".

In other words, the most powerful sound is silence, or rather not-sound. That is what is meant by "truth is better than silence".

"Chanting the (primordial sound) is better than sacrifice, if inaudible, it is 100 more powerful than chanting, if merely mental, it is regarded as 1000 more powerful than chanting"
--Manusmritmi

"Drummers are arrogant because there are so few of them"
--Unknown guitar player"

I might write a book if I get your support.;)

Honestly,are you a musician?
I don´t really understand too much about your words etc.
I know that heart is the centre organ and spiritual center in chinese but I´ve heard middle dan tien referred to as solar plexus in some cases.

Thanks for the replies everyone.

[Chang Style Novice]

"Drumming isnt music. "

You are an idiot.