Is NHB a realistic standard for comparing styles?

[dwid]

A lot of the style vs. style debates seem to hinge on the performance of professional and semi-professional athletes that are thought to be representative of a particular style. I was looking at the video on http://www.thekwoon.com/ in which some of the kwoon guys try some training with Rudi Ott. The video takes a comical approach, but the underlying idea is that the kwoon guys, who don't appear to be slackers in the training department, are obliterated by just a taste of the training regiment of a professional fighter.

In this context, isn't it fair to say that professional and semi-professional fighters from any discipline have more in common with each other than they do with the rank and file practitioners of their style?

Any thoughts?

[apoweyn]

In this context, isn't it fair to say that professional and semi-professional fighters from any discipline have more in common with each other than they do with the rank and file practitioners of their style?

that's actually the best i've ever heard it put.

besides, i think MMA has generally moved past the whole style vs. style mentality to a more fighter vs. fighter mentality.

if you watch the current UFCs, do they still make a big deal about style? i think they mention it on the tale of the tape. but they don't go into it the way they used to.


stuart b.

[dwid]

"besides, i think MMA has generally moved past the whole style vs. style mentality to a more fighter vs. fighter mentality."

I'm inclined to agree with you. The fighters seem to understand this, but the rank and file often don't. I guess it's a "reflected glory" kind of thing.

[apoweyn]

again, i think you've put your finger on it.

as an aside, holy cr*p that KWOON site is funny.

[dwid]

indeed it is...

[fa_jing]

Sorry to repeat: NHB is a pretty realistic standard, for comparing pugilistic fighters. It is not a realistic venue for comparing non-sport, militaristic styles.

[apoweyn]

and predictably enough, the only truly realistic proving ground would be... reality.

and that gets messy.

[Ford Prefect]

BJJ wasn't always a sport. The fact it was successful in NHB propelled it's popularity to the ability to have the sport we see today. I think NHB is an effective forum to showcase one man's fighting prowess utilizing his chosen fighting style against another man's. I don't feel it reflects what somebody may see if encountered on the street.

[MightyB]

That was a cool vid. That trainor really puts those guys through the ringer.

[DelicateSound]

If you take it for what it is SPORTfighting, then it's great, a pretty level playing field.

It's when the whole Street/Sport thing comes into play that it gets nasty.

Why people can't just say "each to their own" I'll never know. It's as if people have to justify their arts "goodness" by the amount of people that train in it.


Sorry to sidetrack, waffling. Just seemed appropriate.



:)

[rogue]

I can’t believe I never knew about this movie. One of my students brought it in one day. It didn’t ring a bell. I popped it in.

How do I say this, bad, bad, Leroy Brown Very Bad. Not Jet Li’s fighting or athletic skills mind you. It’s just the really bad…bad-guys and the English dubbing. Awe man when I complain you know it’s bad.
I can’t believe they got a mullet man white dude for the main bad guy. Ok he had some skill and could do moves. It was the mullet that did it for me.
...
Peace,
"O"

Just like Watchman to do a movie with Jet Li and not tell us. At least it wasn't porn like the one Ryu did.:D

I'm still partial to the Toughman contest on FX for reality fighting.

[jun_erh]

these "NHB" events never seem to actually be no holds barred

[CD Lee]

I have not watched a UFC in quite a while. However, with the newer rules I have heard about, it definately seems that ground styles are pretty much the only way to go.

I know the first ones had less rules, but as uppper level fighters figured out ways to take advantage of ground fighters, rules changed and made it more difficult. I am not sure where they are right now.

I think it is simply sport fighting with rules. It is far less dangerous than boxing, so nobody goes in there thinking they will die. Nobody goes in there and is surprised while still cold dressed in street clothes and business shoes. There is no confusion or brain blank. There is no mental architecture to overcome that your wife might be raped if you lose the fight and then murdured in front of your children. I think it is sport fighting.

Also, among top level professionals, I don't think it compares styles well at all. I think the best fighters win 90% of the time. In boxing which style wins world championships? The best fighters. Some are sluggers, some are pure boxers, and some are a combination of the two. The best fighters usually win regardless of which style of boxing they choose.

[MA fanatic]

I think NHB is a better method of comparing techniques rather than styles. Right now NHB fighters see themselves as professional athletes. They hope to at one point make purses like professional athletes in other sports. All train harder than your average martial artist and some are sponsored to train and fight. These guys take fighting seriously and are very critical of techniques they see no way of working. I think with the popularity of NHB, we learned the affectiveness of grappling. We learned which kicks work best and which punches are most practical. We learned with joint manipulations will work, and which are only suited for prerehearsed dojo practice with a cooperating partner. We realized the importance of conditioning over technique and dispelled many martial arts myths. NHB is an avenue to test your technique, conditioning, and fighting ability. It is not an avenue for testing if an Aikidoka could beat a Karateka.
MA fanatic

[Budokan]

"Is NHB a realistic standard for comparing styles?"

No. The contest itself has to be realistic first.

[dwid]

This promised to be the most civilized discussion on these matters in a while until it was summarily booted from the main forum. It's really irritating how arbitrary moderation is on these boards.

I doubt they even read the thread, they just saw the title and moved it.

[chokeyouout]

yes

[Repulsive Monkey]

NHB is most certainly not a good comparison of different styles due to the limitations it puts on so many other styles itenary of applications. A street fight would be a more honest comparison but of course NHB is nowhere near a street fight.

[dwid]

Did you even read the originating question of the thread?

Thank you for your irrelevant response.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Repulsive Monkey
NHB is most certainly not a good comparison of different styles due to the limitations it puts on so many other styles itenary of applications. A street fight would be a more honest comparison but of course NHB is nowhere near a street fight.

what are these limitations?

(just for the record, when UFC first began, there was controversy over eye gouges, you wouldn't get disqualified for using them, only penalized. eye gouges have a better chance of landing in a grappling situation where you have more control over your opponent. So, if a guy eye gouged someone he'd get a point taken away, BUT if the guy couldn't continue, the eye gouger still won the fight.)

And a style should not have to make drastic changes to adapt to an event, IMO.

[dwid]

My reaction to RM was a little abrupt, but his argument is so tired by now that I have little to no patience for it. The common thread I've seen in every decent fighter I've ever seen fight (sport or street) is that simplicity rules the day. None of the techniques I've ever seen employed effectively are in any way prohibited by nhb rules.

[SevenStar]

no doubt. I was at a tournament today, just watching and volunteering to help, and the event had a continuous sparring division. leg kicks and takedowns were legal, and of course, strikes above the belt. A WTF TKD guy won the grand championship. You know how? by punching. whenever he was inside, he punched with brutal effectiveness, and as we've seen of olympic TKD, there's not alot of hand usage. BUT he was not in an olympic TKD match, so he adapted to what the rules were, and did a very good job of it.

[dwid]

You mean he won even though he wasn't allowed to gouge his opponent's eyes or rip off his skin.

That really is incredible.

Must be some sort of fluke.

[SevenStar]

yeah, who ever woulda guessed, huh? however, if eye gouging was allowed, my money woulda been on the kf guy :)

[dwid]

I, for one, practice a very esoteric kf style. Like 90 percent of my techniques involve face ripping. The other 10 percent are impossible to execute without totally like killing a guy 3 times before he hits the ground. The blood spatter alone from these techniques could injure spectators in the vicinity. So, I won't do NHB until they let me, like, rip faces and stuff.

[SevenStar]

They won't let me compete in NHB because I am a ninja, and as we all know, real ninjas (at least the totally sweet ones) are notorious for flipping out and killing people, which is strictly prohibited in NHB. Also, use of my katana, wakizashi and shuriken is not allowed :( what kind of reality fight is that??

[sweaty_dog]

Street fighting itself has become unrealistic in recent years. Tiger forks and hook swords have all but disappeared to be replaced with guns, knives and baseball bats! Fighting on horseback and one on one sword duels are considered a thing of the past! It's a disgrace.:mad:

[dwid]

I mean, back when I used to be a caravan guard, only the total pusssies resorted to the use of firearms. For me it was all about using my wooden bench to beat the crap out of people. Occasionally, I would employ a dart, but that is a ranged weapon with finesse. These days, they couldn't pay me enough to deal with the riff-raff one deals with as a caravan guard.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Just stating the obvious, that there is a world of difference between NHB and fight which occurs generally in life. The mind-set of opponents is totally different too. Of course there are regulations that preserve a certain degree of legality in NHB fights, whereas no one on the streets gets into fight and states before hand that "no one is allowed to die as a result of our ensuing altercation please!!" do they? I'm just stating a fact thats all!

[dwid]

Your obvious fact is so mundane as to render stating it unnecessary. No one here is claiming that NHB is the same as the street. That didn't even have anything to do with the original topic, which I still suspect you have not read.

Another obvious fact is that the incredibly small amount of rules utilized in an athletic event like an nhb fight are there to keep people from killing each other in the ring. If you rely heavily on techniques forbidden in such a context, then your only way to test them is by going to the street and baiting thugs to attack you. This is very dangerous from both a personal safety and a legal standpoint.

But I digress, this is such a tired argument that I wonder at the fact that I bother to engage in it at all. I guess it's the clinician in me.

[SevenStar]

adrenaline rush - check
opponent - check
full power hitting - check
fighting in all ranges - check
fighting mindset - check

it fulfills the basics. the mindset is definitely close enough to a street encounter. vanderlei has been quoted as saying that has the mindset the he is fighting someone who wants to kill his wife and children. you have to have that fight or flight mindset, but in nhb, you only have one option - fight. which can definitely be good on the street. no there are no multiple attackers, no there are no weapons, but in the street you aren't always faced with those situations either. how many people outside your kwoon will walk up to you with a kwan dao? how often will you be outside the kwoon and have access to a kwan dao? how often does someone attack you by grabbing your wrist or your lapel? how many people stand there and leave their hand out long enough for you apply chin na? In your kwoon, how do you realistically train eye gouges? have you ever actually used dim mak and killed someone? did you at least knock them unconscious with it? Things that make you go "hmmm...."

[Lowlynobody]

Hey just looking through some old threads. Never looked down here much at all. In reply to your question.....


have you ever actually used dim mak and killed someone? did you at least knock them unconscious with it?

What we use I would not call dim mak but pressure point hitting. And yes at my school we look at moves in the form and their application and then to what points those moves would be attacking and then use it to see if it would cause a knock-out with out having to use a whole lot of power. Then we document the knock-out on tape. So in answer to your question some schools do do this sort of thing.

Please excuse my run on sentence =)


Lowlynobody.

[SevenStar]

yeah, no doubt some schools practice pressure points in the manner yours does. I've seen clips of stuff like that. In the ones I've seen though, someone stood there and let the person do it. How does your school practice?

IMO though, from what I've seen and experienced, "traditional" training is no more realistic than nhb, as repulsive monkey and alot of others tend to believe.

[Lowlynobody]

Yeah there are clips out there like that. I've seen this one guy basically king hit his students very hard to pressure points while they just stand there and take the hit. They get knocked out of course but most other strikes say to the head at the same force would knock someone just standing there out anyway.

In my school we practice the knockout using a move from a form against, for example, someone attacking. The person attacks and the other person uses a tech from a form to deflect or grab the limb (which activates certain points like heart which is on the inside of your inner forearm and drains energy eg makes the legs weak) and then goes on strike points on the neck or head or legs or body as the tech dictates for the knockout.

As a simple example take a Mor Kuil. The attacker uses a straight punch to the face and the other person uses a Mor Kuil to deflect the arm while stepping to the attacker's outside, closing him off, and striking the gal bladder points that are on the flat part of the skull just above the temples causing either a knock out or the opponent to be stunned by the blow for a second or two.

I feel that the more one learns of the points of the body that can cause serious pain/weakness/knockout the more one sees the techs from forms attacking these points and as a result you naturally attack the vital points when using such techs.

I can't comment on the training of those in NHB and without knowing what you define as "traditional" training I can't begin to make a comparison.

What I can say is when you see a BJJ player on his back in the guard for 10 or 15 minutes straight it makes you think that the NHB isn't very realistic as most BJJ people in a "realistic" situation i.e. the street, would want to use what they know to a) take the other guy down and get into a mounted position to end the fight or b) get up off of the ground as quick as possible.

Having said that, there are many instances of NHB that is very realistic. Though I would rather fight someone who is used to using gloves (i.e. boxer, kickboxer, etc) than someone who has done iron palm/cotton palm and claw bag training for the last 3 years and attacks using a phoenix-eye.


Lowlynobody

[SevenStar]

Are those online anywhere? I'd really be interested in seeing them. As for the NHB/cotton palm thing, yeah, I agree to an extent.... I would hate to be hit by pan qin fu, however, not everybody who does that type of training spars on even a semi regular basis, and even when you do, you can't use a full power strike safely. The guys at my old longfist school that have been doing iron palm for a few years have never been in the ring and haven't been in a fight in years (luckily). I've broken ribs with a roundhouse kick, knocked someone out, and once knocked someone out with one punch. I KNOW, that I can hit effectively, and through sparring, I KNOW that I can get my arse handed to me and I know what my weaknesses are. The guys that I'm referring to can't say the same.

That's what I think a major advantage of nhb is - you get to test yourself with less inhibition then you would elsewhere, other than the street. It's not just NHB though, I would also say the same about kickboxing, shuai chiao and judo. The format is such that you can play hard, yet still rather safely.

I agree about staying on the ground with someone in guard for 10 mins not being realistic - A tornado kick is not known for its realism either. It's just a usefule part of the game. In reality, knowing how to grapple makes you better able to efficiently get up and hopefully, get away.

[Lowlynobody]

The footage isn't online but it is in digital format (I think) so maybe we could get it up on the web. I'll give you a shout if it gets put online.

I agree with you about the advantage of NHB etc where you can play hard. I think sparing hard is an important part of training and shouldn't be left out. Above all it's (like you said) a great way to test and refine previously drilled techniques against a resisting opponent and teaches you alot about yourself and your actual abilities - depending on how "free" the free sparing is and how hard you are going at it.

Perhaps I should refrase the last thing I said in my last post.


Though I would rather fight someone who is used to using gloves (i.e. boxer, kickboxer, etc) than someone who has done iron palm/cotton palm and claw bag training for the last 3 years and attacks using a phoenix-eye.........

.......and who has tested and refined his techniques via hard sparing.


I am -


Lowlynobody.

[omegapoint]

Standards change constantly. It may seem like a long-time (in our estimation) before "groundbreaking" theories about fighting surface (or resurface). It's a continuum. Change is a constant. The perception of NHB and MMAs specifically, has changed considerably from the mid-90s when GJJ/BJJ and other grappling arts proved their efficacy. Being well versed in grappling and groundfighting is no longer enough to get the NHB job done. Stand-up fighting is just as integral to a strong game. Sounds like things do come full-circle. There is no one answer, because it is All one.

The fact is that fighting effectively depends on a lot of physical, environmental, situational and mental factors. This has never changed. Having the "edge" in the ring/arena by knowing something that others don't/may not know as well as you -or- having luck on your side in the real, entropic world are crucial details for fighting success, regardless of the era or the venue.

Modern can't answer everything. Heck, theoretical physicists are finding that many of the ancient esoteric ideas of reality, actually seem to have a mathematical and scientifically plausible basis behind them (Chi/Qi/Ki and the Ancient Greek idea of Harmonic Resonance, for example). So, the older ways often solved many of the dilemmas of everyday life through logical and philosophical means that seem to mirror the validity of modern empiricism. Reitierating or proving through formulas is not synonymous with formulating an idea.

In the same breath, the traditional is often a platform or an elevated vista that reveals the general surrounding in a panoramic manner. If much of the detail of the more distant concepts (objects) are unknown then a lot of guesswork and personal interpretation will be involved. Speculatory ideas will become ideology, and the end result may be less than adequate to address the situation. If you cannot test your assumptions then they remain weak and invalid. Modern training often addresses the missing detail of mano-a-mano confrontation and to a certain extent, physical confrontation on the whole. There are no more Hong Kong rooftop fights, and very few situations where your "skills" can be tested.


My sensei who is a traditionalist, was a heavyweight "Golden Glove" champ in Austin, Tx.. He has often said that a decent boxer would destroy 95% of the traditionalists out there. Let's just hope you are one of the 95% percent who can squabble when the isht hits the fan. A lot of MMAs, BJJ guys, Thai boxers, and Western Boxers could handle the real contact and time distortion associated with street fighting. They've at least experienced a semblance of it.

[Liokault]

omegapoint



decent boxer would destroy 95% of the traditionalists out there.

You make it sound like being a decent boxer is an easy thing to be? Belive me boxers (who are still after all martial artists and are in their own way more traditional than most eastern martial artists) train harder and longer than most karate guys. Also for every decent boxer there are 10 who tried and found out that they were never going anywhere so gave up.

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by Liokault
You make it sound like being a decent boxer is an easy thing to be? Belive me boxers (who are still after all martial artists and are in their own way more traditional than most eastern martial artists) train harder and longer than most karate guys. Also for every decent boxer there are 10 who tried and found out that they were never going anywhere so gave up. [/B]


Being a boxer is not easy. I never said that. Boxing principles have a lot of merit as far as punching and movement is concerned. Karate and Chuan Fa types should understand this.

As for my use of the world traditional, I meant traditional asian styles. Boxing has a long and storied tradition, and actually is a lot older than the majority of karate and other Japanese influenced arts out there. Fighters like Jack Dempsey and Jack Johnson were a whole other breed, entirely. Dempsey was reknowned for his street-fighting ability.

You are right about the 1 for every 10 attrition thing. That is universally true as far as athletic endeavor and achievement is concerned. In fact it's often a much larger ratio than that. Being a pro-level cat, or being good enough to make a living at any sport is a lottery/probability deal.

You can train in boxing just long enough to fight fairly well in the ring and on the street, or to see a different approach to the "fistic arts". Having many reference points simplifies understanding. Still, there are many facets on a finely-carved diamond, and pugilism is but one of many angles that comprise the face of conflict.

[MA fanatic]

So many great points: Just wanted to add a few comments about some of them:

BJJ Guard: The rules of the Guard, is that if you can't be on top while grappling, it's better to be in the guard. Also, there is no way someone who had never grappled will be in a bjj guard for as long as some NHB fighters (these guys know how to work their ballance in the guard and are on the defensive). On the street, you will spend no more than 5 seconds before you're swept and mounted, choked, or submitted...most likely you will leave your apponents guard unconcious and well as with a broken limb he'll snap just so you have a gift when you wake up. I have never held a beginner in my guard for longer than a few seconds. They will either be swept or tapped.

Dim Mak: There are recorded videos of pressure point artists knocking out people using pressure points. Usually this is done to their own students with the student providing no resistance at all. I attended a seminar where a pressure point grandmaster (name excluded) was KOing his own roadies. These guys appeared to be passing out before he even touched the. (Being a therapist, the power of belief is very significant.) When a local MMA instructor, who was 5'4 and 154, asked to be KOed with the same technique (something to do with the tripple warmer), this world reknown master couldn't do it even after a lot of pounding.
Finally the master said that certain points don't work on certain people and offered to strike the short Muay Thai/bjj instructor in the vagas nerve area. The MMA guy said that he will not allow this. In UFC 7 an Okinawan pressure point expert (who I'm sure KOed many of his fellow students in the dojo) came in to fight stating that he knew a fighting secret. I'm sorry to say that he tried going for pressure point combinations, but was still taken down and choked out in less than 2 minutes (and he had the apponent next to him for the entire 2 minutes, so pressure points could have easily been set up). He lost to Remko Pardoe...Judo/BJJ.

Boxing/TMA: You're right, boxers and Muay Thai guys train a hell of a lot harder than an average TMA guy who comes in 3 times a week for an hour, for recreational reasons. Most of these TMA guys also want to believe they're doing something deadly, so they believe in the fact that they're actually learning to fight. Instead they would be served for lunch to any Muay Thai kickboxer, western boxer, and/or submission grappler.

NHB/Streetfighting: Nothing can simulate a street fight. No event can trully simulate the events you'll face on the street. There is also no course, or school which trully prepares you for the street. NHB is honestly as close as we martial artists could get to realy testing our skills.
MA fanatic

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by MA fanatic

NHB/Streetfighting: Nothing can simulate a street fight. No event can trully simulate the events you'll face on the street. There is also no course, or school which trully prepares you for the street. NHB is honestly as close as we martial artists could get to realy testing our skills.
MA fanatic

I agree with almost all your takes, especially about the pp stuff. I have to disagree with your last statement though, as I know a few folks who have fought many times in the street (as a defender not antagonist) and therefore have had the chance to test their mettle against varied types. Some were from a standing background and some from grappling; others from both. They all say the same thing I do, that's all I know!

The only event that will prepare you for the street is fighting in that environment. All the dry-fire military exercises in the world won't prepare you for Somalia. I know a couple of instructors who can prepare you for the street. BTW, Remco Pardue is strictly Judo, and big! Royce handled him easily though.

I've trained in styles that teach kyushojutsu/pps and I'll say that there are probably 20 people on the planet who truly understand it and teach it correctly. I know for sure that the "Okinawan" stylist (neither Okinawan nor a stylist) in UFC, doesn't and never will know the reality pf pps. The truth is most just say they know, especially Dillman, but those who do don't let it be known to the average sucka'. Just my vantage point....