Just Wondering

[Starchaser107]

I still consider myself new to the whole martial arts thing. Sometimes I think about all the disciples of the art that have trained since early childhood, and the rigourous training regimes they go through. Some would say to those not fortunate enough to have begun traing so early that no matter how much fervour one applies to thier training if they start beyond a certain time the body isnt capable of performing certain feats.
Does this hold true, or is it really mind over matter. Is there any evidence to support the infeasability of this? Who here has started training in thier late twenties early thirties? have you accomplished much more than you thought possible? I started in my late teens Im 25 now and I'm just curious, it's something I think about sometimes. I've heard older people that start sound very pessimistic about what they feel they can accomplish, yet there are some that are willing to try.
any thoughts?

[joedoe]

Everyone suffers from physical limitations. The main thing I think you miss out on if you start later is the flexibility - past a certain age it is harder to gain flexibility.

[friday]

I agree with Joe,

i think its easier for a person to gain flexibility and maintain it if they start at a younger age. Ive been stretching on and off since i was 10. I find that even during periods when i dont' stretch its easy for me to get back into and i make quick progress.

however, i feel that you should still be able to develop great stretching ability as long as u do it with dedication. As you get older however, i'm not sure whether it becomes an issue?

Honestly, ive seen people who have started kung fu since they were a young child and who have dedicated their whole lives in the pursuit of MA and kung fu. There is a marked difference between those who start in their twenties or thirties with these child prodigies. I guess when you are younger you can learn things quicker and easier (e.g. languages). I also think your body develops with your training. (this is all my own opinion of course and is probably not substantiated with scientific proof :).

however, good news is
im lazy at training. hardly ever train. but when i trained fulltime i was able to pick up things really fast and easy. This was when i was in my early twenties. so there is hope for us yet :) depends on the sacrifices you are prepared to make at that age and who you are learning from, your own talent and dedication, physical limits, training program.

I honestly think however, you are likely to be better if u started younger all other things being equal. like tiger woods, etc

[type01]

personally i think thats rubbish that you cant achieve as much when your older, its only the limitations you place on yourself when learning it all in your head. if something is hard like flexibility just train harder you are capable of anything!!! when you realise this you will have realised your unlimited potential the ability to do anything (except fly by flapping your arms).

[friday]

hi Type01

just a question
do u think u would be better now if u started at age 6 in the same style with the same ppl etc. just the age starting time is different

or if u started MA when u were say (lets exaggerate) when u were 35? realistically, due to aging and its effects on your body, mind, new learning ability, i think age does affect your achievable potential.

that will vary with the ages we are talking about of course

[Ish]

yeah i think fridays right in a way but i dont think someone who trained from being 20 to 30 will be better than someone who trained from being 30 to 40. the only advantage i think is that if you have already trained for 10 years by the time your 30 you still have the extra ten years to keep training

[scotty1]

Its probably a physical truth that if you only start stretching in your 30s then you will never be able to stretch as far as someone who started when they were young.

No science, just opinion.

[Sho]

I agree that everyone suffers from physical limitations, but it doesn't mean that you are hopeless after a certain age.

Let me have Japan as an example here. So in Japan, people who are into for example modern wushu, generally start when they are in university (which means that they have plenty of time to spend on their freetime). Regardless of this, Japan is doing very well in the Asian wushu competitions.

My conclusion is that eventhough it is a merit if one starts practicing physically challenging activities at a young age, it's definitely not hopeless to start at an older age. In this case I'm particularily referring to more physically challenging "sports" such as modern wushu or gymnastics.

[MightyB]

Evander Holyfield recently fought and won. He's 38.

Cung Le is 30.

Rudi Ott is 29.

Royce was 35 in UFC 1. I have no idea how old he is now.

I believe Nick Gracenin was in his 20's when he started Wushu.

Benny the Jet was 41 or 42 when he fought his last fight.

How old was Foreman when he trounced Evander?


My point is, being a starter in your late teens or early twenties gives you plenty of time to be a Champion.

[MightyB]

Michael Johnson was 35 when he was proclaimed the fastest man alive.

The World Champion Red Wings are all 30 and above.

You got plenty of time to be awesome if you train hard, extremely hard. It takes a champions mentality. I think it's bullcrap that people set limitations on themselves when they are in their twenties. You physically should be able to do anything that you want. Heck, mid-life is now 50. You should be able to play hard at the old kwoon, dojang, dojo, den, gym, etc. until you're 60-65. Then you should slow it down. This assumes that you take care of yourself. The only people that have problems are those beer gutted chain smoking slackers that whine about aging and give up on life at 25. You can even change full careers in your 30's since you can expect to be working full time until you're 65.

I mean, if you train hard, you'll be good, dam n good in about 5 years time. This assumes that you have a good teacher of course.

[SaMantis]

I'm in my early 30s. I think the main difference is that almost everything takes longer -- I learn at the same rate as most other people, but I don't improve at a quick rate (the more physically difficult routines take longer to master).

I also can't train through injuries the way I could when I was 20. If I don't rest and treat a muscle pull or sprain right away it takes weeks/months to recover from rather than days.

I've trained with people older than me, who started in their mid-20s and later, that regularly go out and win grand champion at tournaments. So I'd say mindset, patience and training time dictate how far you'll go.

[KC Elbows]

On the flip side, how many surviving martial arts were created by nine year olds?

In addition, it is likely that the earliest martial arts were designed by adults.

Didn't Cheng man ching start at age 32?

How flexible does one need to be to shatter someone's clavicle? Break their neck? Poke out their eye?

How does youth help one understand theory?

Knowing when to charge and when not to can be learned early or late.

In addition, I don't think the language relation is a good one. Language is generally far more complex to learn, IMO, as it usually involves far more things. Don't agree? Count the number of shaolin techniques. Then open a dictionairy and count the number of words. Then weed out what you don't use from each. Unless you are tarzan or the hulk, your list of words should greatly outnumber your list of techniques you fight with. After all, you need to talk to learn kung fu. You do not need to do martial arts to talk.:D

There are advantages to an early start, but there are also disadvantages. One local wushu practitioner has been doing it since she was a child. Does she enjoy it? Sometimes, I don't think so, but it's what she knows. She seems to think that america has and will turn out some good martial artists because most of us do it because we have a passion for it.

If starting martial arts at 8 years old would make you a better martial artist, but also make you resent that training, would you still do it?

[friday]

:) thats why i said "all other things being equal". its an assumption.
and i'm not saying older guys can't keep training and performing well. what i'm commenting is that all other thigns being equal if someone starts while younger they are more likely to reach a higher potential than if they started much later.
things like stretching. u may or may not use flexibility in your MA ...hell u might be the most inflexible man ever and be able to win heaps of fights.
as for people resenting MA becos of an earlier start...thats an assumption too. :) so i'm sure u'll be ok with mine.
perhaps you won't like the analogy or parallels i'm drawing between sports like tennis, golf, etc...but the main thing i'm saying is...the age that you begin will have a huge impact on your potential.
if u start later doesn't mean u can't be really good. thats definitely not what i'm saying. however, i'm not a doctor or anything, but what kind of training u do, etc as u grow up particularly in your teenage years will impact your body structure, bone density, the type of muscles u have, etc. thats why u don't see marathon runners become sprinters. reality is, the age u begin "all other things being equal" will affect your achieveable potential. :)

[KC Elbows]

My assumption is superior to your assumption!:D

Actually, I partially agree with what you are saying. There are strong advantages. However, fighting is a close affair, so the margin can be made up.

For instance, in six elbows, I am one of the seniors of my group. Everything I am working on learning now is advanced. Some of the people who started after me are working on the basics, and quickly closing the gap between myself and them as far as skill is concerned. Soon enough, functionally speaking, we'll be equals, until I internalize the advanced stuff. Some of them might pass me up.

This does not change the fact that I am bigger than all of them, and if they don't watch out, I will steal their lunch money!;) :D

[MightyB]

I'm picturing Kramer in the episode of Seinfield where Kramer was the champion of his Karate class. :D

[KC Elbows]

I'm picturing that woman from the Fifth Element holding a chili dog with cheese and onions. What does it mean?:eek: :D

[n0rmann]

I know Master Liu Chengde of the Hong system Chen Taiji didn't begin studying until his mid-20s, and he's probably the best I've ever seen at his individual style.

And talk about flexibility. He began studying after a mining accident which destroyed his leg, and he can stretch his leg so much that his foot is behind his leg, and he's in his late 60s now.

[Lisa]

"and he can stretch his leg so much that his foot is behind his leg, and he's in his late 60s now."

I'm not sure what you mean by "his foot behind his leg." In what position?

Lisa

[n0rmann]

Lisa

behind his head, not leg.

[Lisa]

ohh... that makes more sense:)

[Starchaser107]

thanks guys , I appreciate the different views.
bless.