Japanese Katana = Chinese Slim Saber?

[Eddie]

Recently At a local CMA tournament, a very prominent, very well respected Chinese Master’s son was walking around with a whole bunch of Katana swords. Later the evening, he also demonstrated a non choreographed two person fighting set which, in my opinion at the time, very much resembled Japanese Kendo / Iaido fighting method (both hands on sword, raised above the head, with short attacks to the top of the opponent’s body).

After the event, I had some time to chat to the master’s son about this, and he told me that the Katana originated from the song dynasty (called slim saber or Mieh Dao), and that it was very much a Chinese weapon. The Japanese thereafter took the weapon, and adapted in to their life style (with very little changes to form and style of fighting). They also told me, because of the problems with Japanese pirates, many Southern Masters practiced this style of fighting. One student mentioned that Fong Sai Yuk was very well skilled in this method, but I always thought that Fong Sai Yuk was just a fictional character. They said that there were some “older” southern styles which still use this weapon in this way.

If anyone has any relevant info on this matter, please post this here. I also posted this topic at both southern and Shaolin forums in hopes to get more feedback.

[GeneChing]

I did an article way back in NOVDEC 2001 - http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/kunmag20novi.html - on the Tai Chi Dao http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/45-60cs.html which touched on this same subject. The katana does trace its roots to China but with the Ken - this is the same caharacter as jian in Chinese and the root of the word kendo. Tai Chi Dao, Jia Dao and some transitional Dao have similar architecture to the katana, but I'd look at it more like parallel development. If you really want to know more, check out that article.

[loaddown]

Historically speaking the Sung Kingdom of southern China in 960 AD to 1279 AD had very little trouble from Japanese pirates. The Sung’s main concerns were raiders or marauders from the Hsia Hsia, Khitans then Juchens, and subsequently the Mongols hordes. The three main protagonists of Sung, Hsia Hsia, and Khitans were totally involved with each other in their political and military plots. Their struggles were well know and romanticised as in the tale of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms.

As for Fong Sai Yuk, I consider him a real historical figure as an important martial art figure. If he did exist he would most likely had lived in the second half of the seventeen hundreds. Once again during this time Ching Imperial China had very little trouble from Japanese pirates. Only in the very early part of the Ching Dynasty did the Ching have some difficulties with pirates but most of those were from Chinese pirates rather than from Japanese pirates. Japanese pirates were active but their impact and historical import fluctuated over time depending on opportunities such as the political and military fortunes of their neighbours.

Eddie should have written what style of martial art the sword demonstrators practiced then I could see the weapon concerned used in their stylistic context.

Wai-Sing Fung

P.S. I have re-edited the dates for Sung with the first dates given being wrong.
P.S.S. After reading the article ‘The Muslim Master Of The Old Empire’, an interview with Grandmaster Ma Xianda by Gigi Oh, with Gene Ching; it has become blatantly obvious that I have missed apply the original post Han novel entitle ‘Romance of the Three Kingdoms’ concerning Wei, Chu, and Wu; with later romance novels with similar titles concerning Sung, Hsia Hsia, and Khitan. Thank you for the correction and for taking me seriously.

[loaddown]

Concerning the matter of similarity of the Chinese Sung slim sabre and the later development of the Japanese Katana, It was exactly during this Sung period that Japan had its significant culture exchange with the Mainland Chinese. At this time emissaries who would later become very important religious figures of Japan went to Sung China and learned Chan bring the new aspect of Buddhism back to Japan which would later become know as Zen in Japan.

Wai-Sing Fung

[shaolinboxer]

Archeoligical evidence, accoring to "Japanese Swords: by Nobuo Ogamawara" points to Korea as the origin for the straight single edged sword that eventually evolved into a curved blade for slicing from horseback rather than stabbing.

Ofcourse, most things in Korea were probably learned from the Chinese ;).