Lack of confidence?

[red5angel]

I have noticed a trend over the last few weeks on the forum about how to make wingchun work with different attacks or styles. The taichi thread, the multiple grappling thread. It distresses me that people might not be as confident in their wingchun as they should be. Why would that be?

For me it used to be that way, I was never real confident the stuff I was learning would work, the same with my karate classes in high school. After digging around however, the stuff I am training now, the focus on the basics, the key principles of wingchun, the internal aspects, the hard and the soft I am extremely confident that what I am learning will work, against grapplers, against other wingchun people, against anyone who might come to me looking for a fight! I still stick to my claim and my belief that I am studying something that is much more deep then most of the stuff out there. Its not complicated, but some like to make it so. I am not looking to knock on other lineages, it’s a waste of time, but you do have to ask yourself, are you confident in what you are learning. Will it work for you when it all comes down, when that grappler goes for the shoot, or that muy thai guy clinches?

[reneritchie]

Lao Tzu said the greatest tragedy is underestimating your opponent. Confidence in your art/lineage is one thing. Confidence in yourself is another. Can you do it when you have to is the only berometer. Doesn't matter what your sifu or sigung can do (or what you think they can do - it ain't always the same thing, or what you heard they could do - fishing stories are always grand), or whatever other delusions get you through the day. Only matters what you can do, when you need to do it. (And if you're lucky enough never to need to do it, then it never matters).

You think you can stop a Thai Boxer or a Sub Wrestler of fairly equal attributes and time in? Think you can stop one with greater attributes and more time in? Doesn't matter what you think. Have you done it, and can you do it *consistently*? Everything else is BS.

Rgds,

RR

[[Censored]]

As you've reminded us all so many times, our Wing Chun is shallow. Now you advise us to be confident? Why?

[red5angel]

Renee, well put. As for the second paragraph thats my point, why would either of those guys worry you if you were at the same level? Is the tool your using better? Would you be afraid of someone with a knife if you had a gun?

The point censored is, are you confident in what you do, enough so to say that it doesnt really matter who is in front of you or what they have. Sounds unrealistic? Maybe I should train all ranges or do some grappling with a grappling buddy? when do you stop spreading the small amount of butter you have on that large piece of bread? I have heard a lot lately about how do I deal with this or how do I handle this art or that move. where do you stop, how do you prepare yourself for every eventuality? What I am training now I am confident can hold its own against anything out there. I know it in my gut like I knew in my gut when I was studying from other teachers or other arts that what I was studying then may fail me because it was lacking.

I was just thinking today, the first guy I trained with, I knew I could take, not even using my wingchun, because what he was teaching has huge holes. I was much bigger, and like it has been pointed out so often here lately, I use that size and grab him, he would have been a dead man.

[reneritchie]

r5a - If I was at the same level, then yes, I would still worry. Same with a war. Only an idiot enters a fight on equal terms if they can help it. You should have overwhelming superiority of force, and if you don't, you need to recognize and do something about it. Heck, even if it was a novice Thai Boxer or bjj fighter, I wouldn't get overconfident, since Murphy (even if an optimist) is also a cold hearted beeyotch.

Dude, I believe in having faith in *my* abilities (and I do), but not in what someone tells me I can do or what I fantasize I would do. I have faith in what I've done, and that includes sparring with skilled people in other arts, because I don't want to guess, nor would I be stupid enough to assume, when the time comes. D@mnit, if I'm going to make mistakes, its going to be in practice where I can learn from them and train to minimize their chances of happening again.

BTW- Your butter and bread analogy, though nicely reminicent of Bilbo Baggins, is IMHO not correct. There simply isn't that much bread. If you know (not *think*) you can handle (unarmed) kickboxers, clinchers, and grapplers, you've pretty much got the bakery down.

RR

[[Censored]]

Sorry Red, I don't realize you were making a point. The essence of your post is "Why aren't you confident? I, Red, am confident." If there is a point in there, you've hidden it well.

As a separate question, what would you think of a Wing Chun school that started every class with warmup exercises from BJJ?

[red5angel]

RR - I agree with you generally speaking. Leaving Murphy out of it for a minute just because that is a factor in anything, absolutely anything you do, I am definitely not talking about overconfidence here, although it may not come across that way. Overconfidence is fool hardy and works as often as it doesnt. But how about the war example, what if you are 'technologically' more advanced AND have a better understanding of warfare, enough so to not worry about your opponents methods too much? Sounds foolhardy at first but take vietnam, we were technologically more advanced then the vietcong, and if we had a better understanding of how our forces fought in the jungle, and could efficiently do that, we could have probably won that war hands down.
Ok, ok, enough of the war stuff for now. What I am saying is do you as a person, have enough confidence in the tools and that your art has given you, to not worry about those other arts? Sure a general knowledge of what is out there and what they can do is necessary but do you have to train in every art to combat every art? If I worry too much about one particular type of art, say grappling, do I neglect the others? Is it sufficient to know how grappling works and to have done a little here and there to take on a really good grappler?

BTW - I am becoming concerned about this growing obsession with LOTR! I noticed you managed to sneak it in every few post or so ;) is it your precious?

[red5angel]

Censored, its a good point, and I would have to ask why? Is there some commonality between BJJ and wing chun that would enhance your wingchun practice by doing some bjj warmups? Is there some underlying priniciple to these bjj warmups that not only coincide with your own wingchun principles but also support and enhance them?

The point was that there seems to be a lot of discussion and concern over how to defeat other arts, when practice practice practice is what will get you there, and studying the right stuff ;)

[yenhoi]

Quote rene:

Only an idiot enters a fight on equal terms if they can help it. You should have overwhelming superiority of force, and if you don't, you need to recognize and do something about it.

--

If you are fighting on the street then you have already committed some huge mistakes. Once you end up in that situation then you need to use any and all means possible to extract yourself. For myself, that doesnt mean squaring off and putting up my dukes, I will more than likely employ a weapon.

Sport fighting, on the other hand, is sport fighting, and thats where people start getting into this second guessing concerning arts and training methods.

The fact of the matter is you enter combat with another person or persons, and they have the same tools as you, they just know how to use them differently, and how to apply thier attributes. Your not really dealing with hooks and clinches and takedowns, your dealing with a big, fast, agressive person with the intent to harm you in some way. You have to apply your attributes and knowledge to stop the encounter, or discourage your presumed attacker, or get yourself safely away from him/them.

Confidence I guess is a factor. I think its actually the ability to think, decide, and do (is that what confidence is?), instead of merely panic-ing and being overcome by your own chemicals, or not being 'aware' and making yourself availiable to violence.

I dont think you need to evaluate every other art and decide if your techniques and your art are able to handle it, and use that to make yourself 'confident' that you would survive a random encounter with unknown variables in an unknown setting.

[reneritchie]

Hey r5a,

I think you can talk about people more than about arts. There are some phenominal other arts out there, and some people who use them frighteningly well. Is WCK technologically superior to every other art in existence? Someone who romanticizes it might say yes, despite not having the experience and knowledge of other arts to make a real comparison. For me, the answer is simple. Am I willing to *RISK MY LIFE* that WCK (nevermind me for the minute) is fundementally so much many than any other refined martial art that I'm virtually guaranteed victory? Heck no. There are some people out there doing other good MA, training very hard, and fighting a lot to gain experience. If I want to win, I better work for it! I better hedge my bets!

And again, of course you don't need to try every other arts. There's only so many different approaches. As I said, if you can handle kickboxers, clinchers, and grapplers, I think you're breads well covered.

BTW- My obsession with LotR endures... Come Dec. all my thoughts will be bent upon it! LOL!

RR

[red5angel]

Yenhoi - "Confidence I guess is a factor. I think its actually the ability to think, decide, and do (is that what confidence is?), instead of merely panic-ing and being overcome by your own chemicals, or not being 'aware' and making yourself availiable to violence."

Could be, I like to think of confidence as a psycological advantage, it means you wont get panicky and freeze up because you know your skills and yourself well enough that you are sure you can handle the situation as best you can.

RR - agreed, many good arts that can be done very effectively, and I would say the larger factor is always the person.

I cant wait fo rthe Two Towers but there better be some serious Ent action or I am going to be upset!!!!!

[[Censored]]

Is there some commonality between BJJ and wing chun that would enhance your wingchun practice by doing some bjj warmups?

Yeah, they are both internal.

Is there some underlying priniciple to these bjj warmups that not only coincide with your own wingchun principles but also support and enhance them?

If a spiral supports and enhances a straight line, then what doesn't?

...practice practice practice is what will get you there, and studying the right stuff.

What is the difference between tactics and strategy? Which is important and which is not?

[red5angel]

"Yeah, they are both internal."

I disagree but maybe your definition of internal and mine are not the same.


"What is the difference between tactics and strategy? Which is important and which is not?"

Tactics and strategy are on two different scales but I imagine your discussion isnt heading in the direction of semantics.


"Is there some underlying priniciple to these bjj warmups that not only coincide with your own wingchun principles but also support and enhance them?"

Still waiting for an answer.........

[[Censored]]

BJJ as a soft art can very much be considered to be internal. Why do I say this? Well, let's start by taking economy of motion. If you don't have any internal power, don't know how to unify your entire body behind your actions, then you have to work with speed and strength, making large moves to build up power.

I could continue but I don't want the thread to drift too far off topic.

[anerlich]

BTW - I am becoming concerned about this growing obsession with LOTR! I noticed you managed to sneak it in every few post or so is it your precious?

Sounds like you and Carl Dechiara in your early forum days.

[anerlich]

Are not much different to Wing Chun warmups, though smart people will spend more time on their neck, hips, knees and ankles than the average Wing Chun student would.

Confidence is good. Blind faith in personally untested concepts and techs is foolish.

[Wingman]

What is the difference between tactics and strategy? Which is important and which is not?

strategy: an elaborate and systematic plan of action.

tactics: the branch of military science dealing with detailed maneuvers to achieve objectives set by strategy.

Strategy is what you plan to do during the fight. Tactics is what you do during the fight. I guess both are important because you need to plan what you want to do; and be able to execute what you plan to do.

In order to have a good strategy, you must know yourself and your opponent. Your plan must be compatible with your ability to execute the plan. If you are not confident that you can execute your strategy, then even the best strategy will not work.

[Gandolf269]

___________________________________________
Quote by Yuenhoi:
"If you are fighting on the street then you have already committed some huge mistakes. ....... For myself, that doesnt mean squaring off and putting up my dukes, I will more than likely employ a weapon."
___________________________________________
It's people like you that ruined the good ole days of fist fights. ;)

[red5angel]

Censored, if you havent looked at it yet check out the thread on grappling, or both threads. I believe that grappling recquires a useage of strength that is unnecessary in wing chun. while any art should push to be more efficient and use less energy, I thin it takes more then that to be considered internal. but you ar right this is for another thread....

Here is what I am wondering, if you have any doubt in what you are training at all, then why would you be training it at all?

Yenhoi, I am training so that my hands are the weapons I can use if I find myself in a tight situation and cannot get out.......

[red5angel]

What about spreading oneself too thin? Here is whay I say this. Lets say you have been practicing a little bit of this and a little bit of that? Now what hapens when you come across someone who has practice a whole lot of that?!
It seems like a trap to me really, you learn a little of everything which looks good on paper, but what you might be doing is trying to play everyones game without the knowledge that some of those others have.
for instance I am a wingchun man, if I fight, it is going to be with wingchun. If I have to fight a grappler what is the one thing I dont want to do, especially with a good grappler? Grapple!, why the hell would I try to play a game my opponent is better at?
Sort of like the old challenge method where you challenge someone and then they choose how that challenge will be met. If you knew the guy was a better pistolier, why would you choose pistols? Sure you have shot the pistol a little here and there and are pretty good with it. Why try to take him at his own game? If I have to go against a grappler, I want to make him play my game, right?

[urban tea]

Redangel,

Please answer this question. I have asked you this at least two times.

How old are you?

[red5angel]

UT, I have answered atleast twice 29.

[UltimateFighter]

Originally posted by red5angel
UT, I have answered atleast twice 29.

29!!!!

I thought the guy was no more than 18!!!

[red5angel]

I dont think I am understanding why my age is so fascinating to you two.

[[Censored]]

I believe that grappling recquires a useage of strength that is unnecessary in wing chun

Oh, you don't believe it. I thought we were discussing the facts illuminated by experience, but now I remember that you don't have any grappling experience.

Here is what I am wondering, if you have any doubt in what you are training at all, then why would you be training it at all?

LOL, you make the Pope look insecure. Wing Chun uber alles!

[red5angel]

From my experience yes, as limited as it may be. What sort of grappling background do you posses Censored?

Well? It is a good question in my book. I understand the interest in other arts, thats great, but why would you study an art that you "know" has holes in it? I wouldnt.

[scuba steve]

Dude,

Your confidence in your Wing Chun is based on what... faith ?

Have you tried it against other stylists or other lineages?
Have you tried it on the street?

What is the evidence for your confidence?

A bunch of scrawny teenagers in Hong Kong in the 1950's?
The record of Wing Chun in street brawls here in the USA or Europe?

The choice of Wing Chun of the military systems for CQC?

The record of impressive wins of Wing Chun in the sport arena?

The countless Wing Chun challenge matches against Muay Thai, BJJ, Sombo, Boxing and MMA guys that you have either participated in or witnessed?

:confused:

Or do you just boil it down to the little choo choo paradygm:
"I think I can, I think I can, I think I can, I KNOW I CAN!"

LOL.

Where is the beef, that is the foundation of your confidence?


Originally posted by red5angel
I have noticed a trend over the last few weeks on the forum about how to make wingchun work with different attacks or styles. The taichi thread, the multiple grappling thread. It distresses me that people might not be as confident in their wingchun as they should be. Why would that be?

I am extremely confident that what I am learning will work, against grapplers, against other wingchun people, against anyone who might come to me looking for a fight! I still stick to my claim and my belief that I am studying something that is much more deep then most of the stuff out there.

Will it work for you when it all comes down, when that grappler goes for the shoot, or that muy thai guy clinches?

Well how do you know if it will work? Have you tried it against any of the above? Or have you just dismissed those stylists out of hand without ever experiencing them due to the intense realistic spec ops training you are getting in minneapolis? :rolleyes:

[red5angel]

Scuba Steve, how about time practicing and training and experiencing what it is I am doing? How about comparing it to the 16 or so other schools I have visited over the last three years? How about seeing it applied at the higher levels?
You have to have faith my freind, if you dont, why bother? It was a good argument though, tired, and overdone but good none the less and we have some lovely parting gifts for you....... ;)

Check out Ken Chungs school in San Fran or Carl Dechiaras in Ohio and then come talk to me.

by the way, who said anything about dismissing other stylist? You maybe?

[[Censored]]

...grappling recquires a useage of strength that is unnecessary in wing chun...from my experience yes, as limited as it may be. What sort of grappling background do you posses Censored?

If I had only one day of grappling (and I have more), I wouldn't dare hold it in such ignorant contempt. Any grappling expert could submit YOU within seconds, AND they wouldn't strain themselves doing it. No more than you strain yourself doing SLT, anyway.

Do your teachers feel the same way about grappling that you do?

I understand the interest in other arts, thats great, but why would you study an art that you "know" has holes in it? I wouldnt.

I do "external Wing Chun", so standup grappling is allowed, and I don't need "other arts". ;)

A separate question: when you do your tai chi warmups in class, do you focus on the centerline?

[red5angel]

Censored, lets not get into ignorant contempt since you arent obviously understanding what I am saying so I will say it one more time just for you. I am not knocking grappling for being different but the energy expenditure recquired is more so then in wingchun. Bottom Line.
I wouldn't assume any Grappling expert would drop me so quickly, just like any other martial artist may not drop me with their own techniques as quickly as you might think, your smarter then that censored, try again, try harder.

I dont speak for my teachers, I speak for myself and my own experience, which I have already discussed at length so I will refer you to the first half of this thread and any other grappling thread on this forum at the moment.

Good for you and your external wingchun but that is a dead end, as you get older and grow weaker the strength you rely on will fade and you will have to find something else to fill that gap ;). Internal is the way to go if you want it to last.

[[Censored]]

I am not knocking grappling for being different but the energy expenditure recquired is more so then in wingchun. Bottom Line.

Your opinion is completely uninformed and therefore worthless. That's the real bottom line. :)

wouldn't assume any Grappling expert would drop me so quickly

You can stop expert grapplers, yes or no? Do you consider yourself an expert on Wing Chun then?

Hahaha, this is verbal chessboxing and you're perpetually in check.

your smarter then that censored, try again, try harder.

Sorry, but in my Wing Chun, we do no such thing.

I dont speak for my teachers, I speak for myself and my own experience

LOL, I think you don't listen to them either, because I've never heard them say anything half as outrageous as you do here every day. :)

Good for you and your external wingchun but that is a dead end, as you get older and grow weaker the strength you rely on will fade and you will have to find something else to fill that gap

The elderly Chens, who provided the warmup exercises for your class, seem to do just fine with their standup grappling. Thank you for the advice though. :)

[red5angel]

"Hahaha, this is verbal chessboxing and you're perpetually in check."

Loosing your cool Censored means you lose the battle but I guess its a lesson we al lhave to learn sometime. ;)

Censored, when you decide you want to have a real grown up conversation with the adults you come on back now and we can talk. Otherwise you are done with this conversation.

[UltimateFighter]

Censored hit the nail on the coffin. Redangel, you indeed have no grappling experince so your opinion on it is even more worthless than your opinion on wing chun.

[red5angel]

On a roll this afternoon UF? Dont have anyone else to sling insults at maybe? If you cant help yourself then you are done until you can play nice with all the other kids ok?