Speed and power

[red5angel]

This has come up a bit over the last few weeks so I thought it might make good discussion. Alot of people are shooting for speed when they train, but what is speed without power? Train all you want to be fast but if you dont have structure and you dont have the proper energy how can you do any damage?

[TjD]

my power and structure causes the speed

[Atleastimnotyou]

Ken Chung is not fast in the sense that he can throw his puches faster than his oppent cuz of muscle. He is "fast" because he goes the shortest distance. he knows the shortest distance because he practices to be percise. he also beats his opponent because he is more sensitive so he can feel more than his opponent.
So i guess my advice would to practice sensitivity and being precise if you want to be "fast."

[Atleastimnotyou]

that is one aspect of how we're fast. but also, we are fast because we have no hesitation, we are always totally ready
to fire, without thinking, as soon as someone makes a mistake, they'll be hit.

[teazer]

Which would you rather have charging towards you - a bull or a steamroller?
Most MA styles do fine relying on the 'hit faster for more power' approach, rather than the linked body structure causing power approach.
Some people like to train all the details from the beginning, others prefer to start by relying on efficient combinations etc done fast + with muscle strengthening & maybe feed in the structural details & timing later on.
As has been said, structure & speed are not necessarily mutually exclusive - it's all in how you train.

[red5angel]

"Some people like to train all the details from the beginning, others prefer to start by relying on efficient combinations etc done fast + with muscle strengthening & maybe feed in the structural details & timing later on.
As has been said, structure & speed are not necessarily mutually exclusive - it's all in how you train."

Teazer, my problem with this would be that you would be training bad habits the whole time an dyou would have to go back and correct them later. Why not just start out doing them correctly?

[Ish]

Teazer, my problem with this would be that you would be training bad habits the whole time an dyou would have to go back and correct them later. Why not just start out doing them correctly?

I kind of agree with that, i think its better to get things right then build on the speed rather than do it real fast first and try to improve on that

[yenhoi]

There is definitly not a way to do 'everything' completly correctly all the time. You must train attributes which means focusing on different aspects at different times. Speed, power, endurance, stamina, raw strength, are all attributes that affect each other, and none can be trained at the same time (you cannot focus on everything at the same time.) You can practice focusing on speed, and at other times you can practice focusing on power, other times you can work on endurance. Every punch you throw will not be the most relaxed, each will not be the fastest, each will not be the most powerful.

What you can work on all the time is relaxation and technique. These attributes affect speed, power, and endurance greatly, but you dont have to choose speed over power all the time or power over speed all the time. You can focus on your relaxation all the time, and go for speed or power depending on what your goals are or what the situation warrants.

[red5angel]

To a certain extant I might be willing to agree Yenhoi, but you can be mindful of all of these attributes when you are training, and I definitely feel that structure and softness are two you should focus on more then power, power comes later with these. I dont see a backwards progression if you train this way then if you were to train with strength first, then you have to go back and fix bad habits then begin to start instilling the good habits. If that makes sense.

[old jong]

There is no time to be fancy and technicaly perfect in a sudden real fight and what will work for you is the more simple and basic stuff that you have.You need to be fast and you need to hit hard.In real fighting,courage and ferocity comes first,technique comes later.
The more advanced you are...(nothing to do with theorical knowledge)the more you can use the more advanced concepts of Wing Chun.

[pvwingchun]

Red5 - Study your principles because I believe that the answers you seek are in there.

[Mithrandir]

Hi Red,

I find that when I try to be powerful with WC, I become tense and my structure is compromised. Power alone is not enough. Speed alone is not enough. The attributes of speed and accuracy when utilized by a determined mind can have a devastating effect against the "just powerful" opponent. Targets such as the eyes, throat, and groin are not that difficult to hit with the proper training and genetics (fast-twitch muscles). Speed and power are not dependent upon the WC structure.


Yenhoi,
Excellenct points.

[red5angel]

Mithrandir, I generally agree, its how you are trying to get to speed and power that make the difference in what we study. however genetics may be a factor but isnt a necessity by any means. Proper training and the right attitude go along way.
Also, speed an power are dependant on structure in wincghun as well as sensitivity for exactly the reasons you stated how do you think one overcomes that person with good genetics and strong muscles?

[teazer]

you would have to go back and correct them later. Why not just start out doing them correctly?


I suspect this has been suitably responded to already by other thoughtful posts.

This can equally well be applied to questions on whether to train stepping/movement early vs having students just hang out in their YJKYM for extended amounts of time.

[Mithrandir]

Hi Red,

If a person has both good genetics and strong muscles, we still have to take into account accuracy as well as a host of other attributes;

Mindset: can he "pull the trigger", will he "pull the trigger"

Accuracy: is it being trained, not just hands but feet, elbows, knees, etc., etc.,

Sensitivity: only attained through training

Structure: the result of training

Movement without thought: generally must be trained

I am sure I missed a few Red. What are some of your thoughts?

[Mithrandir]

Hi Red,

If your opponent has speed, power, accuracy, sensitivity, structure, mindset, mass, etc., etc.,

RUN RUN

[red5angel]

Teazer, the question is applicable, of course you might put more focus on one or two things in the beginning but this doesnt mean you leave the rest behind.

Mithrandir -

Psychology is also related to situation. If you have never been in a real street fight then you may freeze where as you are an animal in the ring or at the kwoon. I would always assume an aggressive mindset in an opponent
I agre with most of what you said but some of those are derived from others:

Sensitivity breeds reaction time (speed), also movement without thought.

Structure creates power and precision in practice creates precision in the street.

LOL! If he has all those things I could probably figure out how to fly!!!

[Miles Teg]

Red
I think your right on the money.
Learning how to you use you whole body mass is something that takes time, it is not something that you learn from a few classes. It is a different type of coordination which I havent seen in many WC styles. As for the `you dont have time to get everything right in real fight arguement` I disagree. Once you are at the level where you can do this, it is with you, a part of you regardless of whether your nervous or not. If your art is technique focussed you will have problems getting all right in a real fight.

Just being relaxed when punching is not going to give you whole body power neither is having your arms in exactly the right position when punching. Those 2 things in and of themselves are not going give you power when punching, it takes mental coordination. Adding speed to the equation just makes it more difficult to get it right.

Even when thinking about it in simpler terms I can think of why power over speed is better: Lets say you learn how to make a house, once someone has showed you the steps a few times do you go out and make a houses as fast as you can for the share sake of making them fast, if you do that youll have houses that may look good but are not going to survive earthquakes, hurrican etc. No you do it slowly so the house is structually sound, you ask your mentor whether your doing the right things through out the process (sifu tests\ coveys various tests to see if your on the right track). You do what it takes until what you are doing feels right and you have confidence. Afterwards you make houses on your own at a slow pace but it gradually gets faster and faster and you have the ability to make great houses at a good pace.

[HuangKaiVun]

"Speed" and "power" - so hard to discuss.

I've seen guys (even old men) that don't look fast that have world class level reaction. They can adjust to the smallest subtleties with a total economy of motion. Yip Man was this kind of fighter.

I've also met super quick AND strong guys that didn't have the sensitivity and mental speed to keep up with quicker thinkers in combat. Just because one has speed AND strength doesn't mean that he knows how to use it.

Rather, I now prefer to think in maximizing one's innate capabilities. As long as a guy is trying to be HIMSELF, he'll be more than OK.

As far as opponents with "speed, power, accuracy, sensitivity, structure, mindset, mass, etc., etc.," go, remember that he can have all that under him and STILL lose - and lose easily.

[WingTsun20]

A car doing 100 MPH causes more damage than a car doing 80MPH!

[HuangKaiVun]

Not necessarily.

The car doing 100 mph might be coasting on a major road with nothing in front of it, the car doing 80 might be doing that on a slick road with other cars in its path.

Just because an opponent has every advantage over you doesn't mean you're going to lose.

[Miles Teg]

If your saying that W.Cs power comes from speed, you are completely wrong!

[{i^(]

Miles Teg made one d4mnably excellent point when saying:

"Just being relaxed when punching is not going to give you whole body power neither is having your arms in exactly the right position when punching. Those 2 things in and of themselves are not going give you power when punching, it takes mental coordination. Adding speed to the equation just makes it more difficult to get it right. "

What I'm getting from this, is it's not 'just' about being soft, but about whole body coordination, whether done 'externally' (whatever) or 'internally' (ditto). 2 paths, same goal, both 'correct' (ditto x2) YMMV.

That all said, relaxation is...not bad. That's the motto of our school: "it's...not bad" (joke- don't kill me).

How do you swing a car at someone? A Fiesta on a chain does he11a good damage on someone. But remember: put the chain through the axles!

[teazer]

If your saying that W.Cs power comes from speed, you are completely wrong!

Well, at least 'incomplete'. Imagine doing a punch & slowing the hand down till it's barely moving. You'd be pushing the person rather than punching them - no penetration. no damage. So, speed of the strike is definitely a factor.

[TargetAlex]

On Speed:
I had this discussion with a friend, and thought I might share his thoughts:
Lets look at this mathematically;
Force is equal to mass times acceleration (increasing and decreasing) F=ma

Momentum is equal to mass times velocity. (speed)

Kinetic energy, the energy a body possesses because it is in motion, is equal to ½ times mass times velocity squared, So where m is its mass and v is its velocity then K=1/2mv2 Due to this equation I believe speed is very important if I want to impart the greatest amount of kinetic energy into my opponent for the greatest amount of work or damage. Because the energy is greatly increased by squaring the velocity, speed is extremely important.
-Danny T

Some thoughts about acceleration:

A punch that is 'declerating' from 100mph when making contact might do less damage than a punch that is accelerating from 80mph to 100mph when it hits. When hitting an object, a projectile often does more damage if it is accelerating at the time of impact, than it would if it is cruising at a maintained speed when impact occurs. (There are several relative factors here).

I don't see the "miles per-hour speed/velocity which you attain" as being less important than making sure you are still accelerating when you hit your target. Accelerating through your target may do a lot more damage than trying to consciously hit it at maximum speed. This is because once you have "attained your absolute maximum speed", do you know what happens next? You begin to SLOW DOWN!

Example: FighterA can reach a maximum speed of 100mph but needs 12 inches to reach it.
FighterB can reach a maximum speed of only 75mph, but can reach that speed in 6 inches.

Who has more power when hitting a target 5 inches away?


Just some thoughts,
-Alex

[CLOUD ONE]

Have you guys practiced punching a candle flame?

There is a tecnique to this which requires speed and relaxedness and body unity, but for power I am not sure.

[Frank Exchange]

As many people have pointed out eloquently in other threads on the main forum, it is very difficult to apply Newtons laws of motion to the human body. f=ma and all that are all well and good, but are principles dealing with point masses, no friction, straight lines and all sorts of other simplifications.

For example, when hitting, do we want the best power, the best force, the best rate of change of momentum, the best transfer of energy, the best pressure (for penetration)? These are all related but not identical.

As TargetAlex has pointed out, these are complex issues, and saying speed gives you more power is a gross simplification of the issue.

Increased speed= harder strikes is indeed true, ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL.

But in a fight other things are not equal at all. Accuracy is fundamentally important, as is sensitivity, the ability to change the direction of your strike, and to realise that you have missed your target and need to do something else. The amount of power you generate is also directly proportional to the mass used, punching with the mass of the fist and arm is very different to punching with the mass of the whole body.

Regarding the car analogy, if a car is travelling at 100mph it may indeed do more damage than one travalling at 80mph, but it will be a lot more difficult to control, and that much harder to stop when you realise you have taken the wrong road!

(Edited to add thoughts on mass)

[{i^(]

I read one of Yang Jwing-Ming's books where he does something similar, except his went like so:

In White Crane, they're trying to develop shocking/penetrating energy while maintaining defense, so at least half the training is on recovery of the punch after launch while getting a good whipping energy into it. In the chart with the book, it looked like V1= going to target, 2V at target, V2=going away from target. V* equals velocity.

I'm prolly not explaining that well, but I'll press on. You relax, launch and connect, use the velocity, position, and a little distance to penetrate, but then bring it back (as the arm can only go so far) which creates the whipping energy as the power is transferred.

This is in his "essence of shaolin white crane" book, which is good on many levels for WC understanding of Jings (thats for firehawk hehe)