The mother from Ermei.

[Hendrik]

Attached is a summary drawing of Ermei 12 Zhuang.

Ermei 12 Zhuang was develop in Nang Soong, Some 700 years ago. Dynasty Long before Ming dynasty.

In this drawing, it shows how the Buddha's nature, the four wisdom of Tatagatha, Daoism's Qing/Qi/Shen, develop, link , to the Ermei 12 Zhuang.

We knows today Ermei 12 Zhuang is a mother of the Yik Kam's Siu Lien Tau.

Can't say much for other lineages but my opinion is that there is a great possibilities that all who is belong to Ng Mui/Miu Shun based history might be able to share this finding.

It is about sharing not about the oldest or number one....

Enjoy.


PS.
Noticed that in this picture there is Tee Yoong as we talked about a few post before. and how the Buddha Nature and the Tatagatha's 4 wisdom get birth to Qing/Qi/Shen and the Tee Yoong.....
That is the classical way Chinese describe thier idea.


Since I am signed off, sorry if I don't answer you question.

[reneritchie]

Hey Hendrik,

First. EMEI, darnit. No 'r'. LOL!

Okay,

1) If writings passed down for centuries in Emei, Sichuan, but not released outside the temple until the 1970s closely parallel writings passed down from the 1860s within the Cho family in Panyu, Guangdong, and,

2) These writings closely match the culture, language, and thinking of the time (descriptive in TCM terms),

Is *very* interesting. If the working theory is that elements of Fujian Weng Chun White Crane were passed down to the Red Junk performers (and we know they at least were practiced on the Red Junk because the leader of that period, Lee Man-Mao, was a Fujian Weng Chun White Crane boxer), and mixed with *something*, perhaps (you know I tend to want to be very thorough about this kind of thing) you have a candidate.

What, however, makes you think its more likely that the Emei Sup Yee Jong was mixed with the Fujian Weng Chun White Crane *before* the Red Junk opera, and not by somebody(ies) on the Red Junk itself?

Rgds,

RR

[yuanfen]

Ermei 12 Zhuang was develop in Nang Soong, Some 700 years ago. Dynasty Long before Ming dynasty.

In this drawing, it shows how the Buddha's nature, the four wisdom of Tatagatha, Daoism's Qing/Qi/Shen, develop, link , to the Ermei 12 Zhuang.

We knows today Ermei 12 Zhuang is a mother of the Yik Kam's Siu Lien Tau.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Rene: What is Hendrik trying to say? Specifically-
1. what is Zhuang?
2. Who what is Yik Kam?

From what I gather Hendrik is not saying that his family art is not necessarily the oldest but that there is a likely connecting thread for all wing chun to Emei 12 Zhuang? Again -what is Zhuang?
Principles of directing energy? Descriptions of motions? Other?
joy

[[Censored]]

AFAIK, Zhuang = jong = post, stake, dummy, stance, etc., depending on context.

[yuanfen]

Thanks censored on = jong, post etc
now for the rest...
is the drawing 700 years old?
What does it say?

[reneritchie]

Hi Joy,

Zhuang is Mandarin PinYin for Jong, same character as Muk Yan Jong. It means post and is typically used for Zhan Zhuang (Jan Jong), or "Standing Post" or "Posture" in Qigong, Xingyi, and other systems. In Emei, there is a temple called Golden Summit, and in the 1970s a book (I think there are 3 actually now) was released on a Qigong system called Shi Er Zhuang (Sup Yee Jong or 12 Posts/Postures) which are twelve short Qigong exercises (they have martial content as well but the general well-being of the practitioner, I believe, was paramount). These exercises use very detailed (in TCM terms) methods for alignment and generating Jing (Ging, Power).

The Cho family have preserved a set of Kuen Kuet, handed down within their family since the 1860s from a man nicknamed Yijin (Yik Kam, or Wing Gold). Yik Kam was one of the Red Junk opera performers, a Sidai to Wong Wah-Bo. His apprentice on the Red Junks was Cho Shun, who came from Panyu village in Guangdong. The Cho's (he had a couple of brothers) ran a martial arts gym there, teaching a village form of Southern Fist with roots in Choy Lai Fut, Hung Kuen, etc. He could not, however, nor could his brothers, match skills with Yik Kam's Wing Chun Kuen, so Cho Shun became his student and the Cho lineage began.

The Cho's preserve one set from Yik Kam, the Siu Lien Tao, which for them is a much longer set with 4 sections. The first 3 sections are similar to the other WCK branches doing Siu Lien/Nim Tao, Chum Kiu, and Biu Jee back to back, and the 4th section (if memory serves) contains the 'mother' or core cycle techniques (which you find similar things to in other lineage's San Sik.

The Kuen Kuit basically detail the Siu Lien Tao in a very detailed manner (what should be going on in terms of intention, meridians, etc.) and have a very strange parallel to the Kuen Kuet for the Emei 12 Postures. Other parts of the Kuen Kuit are strangely parallel to Fujian White Crane Kuen Kuit.

So, I guess in a nutshell, Hendrik proposes (based on the research his sifu began in the 1970s and he's continued to this day) that Wing Chun Kuen (at least his branch, he probably thinks all branches but can only speak authoritatively about his own) comes from a melding of Emei 12 Postures engine (method for power generation) and Fujian White Crane techniques (hands like Tan Sao (water palm), Pak Sao (fire palm), etc.)

As to older and the rest, each branch may contain some elements that are "older" and some that are "newer" (even a branch that sprouted earlier keeps growing, and in some cases has more time to twist and turn). In this case, the Yik Kam/Cho branch of Wing Chun Kuen sprouted about the same time as everyone else (Cho Shun returning to Panyu after the Qing purge, roughly when Wong Wah-Bo went to Foshan, etc.), and while they doubtless have their own developments, they also seem to have retained some elements from the past that could possibly give us an insight into our collective history.

Just to add, FWIW, Cho WCK, like Yip Man, YKS/SN, Gulao, etc. is still extent in China (South East Asia as well) and you can find people there doing pretty much the same Siu Lien Tao Hendrik is referring to.

Rgds,

RR

[yuanfen]

(Thanks Rene)

Hi Joy,

Zhuang is Mandarin PinYin for Jong, same character as Muk Yan Jong. It means post and is typically used for Zhan Zhuang (Jan Jong), or "Standing Post" or "Posture" in Qigong, Xingyi, and other systems.
(Got that)

In Emei, there is a temple called Golden Summit,
(Knew that)
and in the 1970s a book (I think there are 3 actually now) was released on a Qigong system called Shi Er Zhuang (Sup Yee Jong or 12 Posts/Postures) which are twelve short Qigong exercises (they have martial content as well but the general well-being of the practitioner, I believe, was paramount). These exercises use very detailed (in TCM terms) methods for alignment and generating Jing (Ging, Power).
((Ok- whats the connection to 700 years? Oral? The pocture/scroll? Tradition? Is the ygkym or something close one of the postures))

The Cho family have preserved a set of Kuen Kuet, handed down within their family since the 1860s from a man nicknamed Yijin (Yik Kam, or Wing Gold).
((What happened in the gap between the 12 posts and 1860s
according to hendrik's tradition?))

Yik Kam was one of the Red Junk opera performers, a Sidai to Wong Wah-Bo. His apprentice on the Red Junks was Cho Shun, who came from Panyu village in Guangdong. The Cho's (he had a couple of brothers) ran a martial arts gym there, teaching a village form of Southern Fist with roots in Choy Lai Fut, Hung Kuen, etc. He could not, however, nor could his brothers, match skills with Yik Kam's Wing Chun Kuen, so Cho Shun became his student and the Cho lineage began.
((i understand that section))

The Cho's preserve one set from Yik Kam, the Siu Lien Tao, which for them is a much longer set with 4 sections. The first 3 sections are similar to the other WCK branches doing Siu Lien/Nim Tao, Chum Kiu, and Biu Jee back to back, and the 4th section (if memory serves) contains the 'mother' or core cycle techniques (which you find similar things to in other lineage's San Sik.
((Without more info-dont understand section 4, But understand
the longer -fusion- 3 part form))

The Kuen Kuit basically detail the Siu Lien Tao in a very detailed manner (what should be going on in terms of intention, meridians, etc.) and have a very strange parallel to the Kuen Kuet for the Emei 12 Postures. Other parts of the Kuen Kuit are strangely parallel to Fujian White Crane Kuen Kuit.
((Logically- can be continuous link to emei or 1860s fusion of emei and fujian crane?))

So, I guess in a nutshell, Hendrik proposes (based on the research his sifu began in the 1970s and he's continued to this day) that Wing Chun Kuen (at least his branch, he probably thinks all branches but can only speak authoritatively about his own) comes from a melding of Emei 12 Postures engine (method for power generation) and Fujian White Crane techniques (hands like Tan Sao (water palm), Pak Sao (fire palm), etc.)
((Again on his thesis... continuity or 1860 synthesis))

As to older and the rest, each branch may contain some elements that are "older" and some that are "newer" (even a branch that sprouted earlier keeps growing, and in some cases has more time to twist and turn). In this case, the Yik Kam/Cho branch of Wing Chun Kuen sprouted about the same time as everyone else (Cho Shun returning to Panyu after the Qing purge, roughly when Wong Wah-Bo went to Foshan, etc.), and while they doubtless have their own developments, they also seem to have retained some elements from the past that could possibly give us an insight into our collective history.

((Interesting if some of the puzzles can be articulated more.
Thanks, Joy)))

Rgds,

[reneritchie]

Hi Joy,

My pleasure. I'm not up that much on the history of Emei or its systems, so I don't know for sure how far back they date Emei Twelve Postures or their justification for doing so. Maybe someone else knows? (Gene, you mag mentioned them in the Emei special a while back?)

As to Hendrik's thesis, I believe he pegs the fusion at occuring before the Red Junk period, inspiring the Ng Mui/Miu Shun/Yim Wing-Chun legend. Personally, I haven't seen anything that makes me consider it more or less likely one way or the other.

As to the 12 Posture's horse, I've only seen it once but it looked more like the bigger versions of YJKYM like your branch would do rather than the smaller version in YKS/SN or Gulao. Aside from that, Hendrik feels the internal (TCM) qualities are parallel.

Rgds,

RR

[Hendrik]

Hi Rene,

First. EMEI, darnit. No 'r'. LOL!

Do you have some mind up-loading communication tools? I hate words. That is too slow. HS


"Is *very* interesting. If the working theory is that elements of Fujian Weng Chun White Crane were passed down to the Red Junk performers (and we know they at least were practiced on the Red Junk because the leader of that period, Lee Man-Mao, was a Fujian Weng Chun White Crane boxer),

and mixed with *something*, perhaps (you know I tend to want to be very thorough about this kind of thing) you have a candidate."


Just for fun, Too bad, If I am not wrong,
Somehow your lineage also mention Miu Shun from the west of Canton. And based on Miu Shun's story, accidentally we found the match writting of Emei to Yik Kam's SLT writing.

So, you are the decendent of Miu Shun also. Trap. LOL HS



"What, however, makes you think its more likely that the Emei Sup Yee Jong was mixed with the Fujian Weng Chun White Crane *before* the Red Junk opera, and not by somebody(ies) on the Red Junk itself?"



If you want my opion, Siu Lien Tau is just a smoke screen "Miu Shun" used to cover up his leak of Emei 12 Zhuang to someone from Fujian which he not supposed to due to his vow in the temple of goldern summit.

In addition,
Obviously, the White Crane's center line concept and the Chao Yang Sou or the Hand of Clear Sun are core of White Crane and indeed they are a beauty. That is why Miu loves them.

Remember the so called immoveable elbow... guess where they are from? ..I "think" :D those are related to the hand of Clear sun.


As for " before", LOL, the Yik Kam kuen kuit was part Emei 12 Zhuang's writing and part white crane term.

but written in Fujianese. Why Fujianese?
But Not Cheong Ng's Hu bei or Hu Nan or BeiJing language?
Or in Cantonese as Wong Wah Boh and Yik Kam and Dai FA Min are there singing opera in Cantonese right? and those Hung Mun brothers from Shang Hai, they are Sam Hap Wui, they spoke Cantonese. right? LOL.

why do they wrote the Kuen Kuit in Fujian?

Beats me. Guess why? Well, I don't know. :D

But I think Miu Shun eventhough he never wrote his name down did tell the truth.

If Miu leaves signature so that we can find his art the Emei 12 zhuang. Why should he lies?

and Yim as Yim Wing Chun (ok may be her name is Yim Hsu Chi :D ) is indeed Fujian last name....

and someone in Asia Forum mention the GuLao senior mention the 3.5 pole is linking to EMEI's umbrela technics.

why suspect the grandfather on importing emei by fujianese to canton? LOL

I think if we look into the language used, the timing of Red Jung involment of Tai Ping or those up rising., the geographic direction of revolution .... I think Some old
Vampire :D (analogy) must be bring the "blood line" into Red Junk.

See, it was stated that Miu Shun learning White Crane in KwiLin and Yim Yee lives in Kwi county.
Why Kwi Lin or Kwi county? remeber the matching to 'western paradise"?
Alots of activity in "west".

We also know that Hung Siu-Chuan with his group of people Visited PunYee the home townlocation of Cho Family a year before Taiping uprising. And we know the Cho at that time also involve in the revolution. Atleast the salutation and code which get passed down prove so.




May be Miu Shun purposely wants to leave us something so that we all can trace back when the world is in peace? For fighitng is not the ultimate.

As it is said in the Emei 12 Zhuang Kuen Kuit, "within the Asura realm (living beings who loves to fight), it is also equip with compasionate. as the disciple of Buddha, The precept against all Killing and hurting other living being.

In addition, I think different to other hyphothesis about the art is created as the san sau first.

I trend to look at it as:
since Miu has a solid platform--emei 12 zhuang. with Tee and Yong well defined century ago, SLT doesn't has to go through the san sau.... evolutin period. It can just adapt.
The theme is already there Both theoritical and application.when Miu decide to create SLT.


We might not be able to know the facts.
You might be right.

But then who knows?

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by yuanfen


From what I gather Hendrik is not saying that his family art is not necessarily the oldest but that there is a likely connecting thread for all wing chun to Emei 12 Zhuang? Again -what is Zhuang?
Principles of directing energy? Descriptions of motions? Other?
joy

Joy,
You are correct.
what is oldest?
when everyone has the set you like to call it Siu Lien Tau or Siu Niem Tau...

:D

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Thanks censored on = jong, post etc
now for the rest...
is the drawing 700 years old?
What does it say?

I don't know if the drawing is 700 years old. But I know the concept is authentic.

One of the last gate keeper who passed away decade ago is a buddhist monk/ TCM doctor/ qikung master and a famous one in the history of China.

THis drawing is say all about how the Buddha nature transform into the 12 Zhuang. and how to use the 12 zhuang to return to the Buddha nature. it is about internal training.

To return to the Buddha nature is the main goal of the 12 Zhuang. Once one can "return" one also can transform back.
Once one can heal one can also kill....

This is from the lineage of Goldern Summit temple of Emei. Created by the White Cloud Chan monk. White Cloud is a Daoist who later convert to Buddhism.

This is different then those empty claim of Chan this and Chan that. IT has where, who, what, how and accord to Buddhism.

If you have good chinese Classic scholar friend let him explain to you about this picture.

And, if you noticed on the top, there is a Chinese Character "small, little " Guess what is that.

[Hendrik]

Hi Joy,


((Ok- whats the connection to 700 years? Oral? The pocture/scroll? Tradition? Is the ygkym or something close one of the postures))

Those monks keep it there. Oral and writing ect since there also medicine or herb fomulars....

Yik Kam's SLT set start with exactly same stance as the 12 Zhuang's. or the Small letter Zhuang. They called this stance the equal shoulder stance.
If one read the explaination of the 12 zhuang on the equal shoulder stance, one will understand about the YJKYM to its depth. HS



The Cho family have preserved a set of Kuen Kuet, handed down within their family since the 1860s from a man nicknamed Yijin (Yik Kam, or Wing Gold).
((What happened in the gap between the 12 posts and 1860s
according to hendrik's tradition?))


According to Yik Kam's writing,
NG Mui created White Crane. Past the White Crane to Miu Shun in KwiLin, The Miu Shun created the Siu Lin Tau with his own art and White Crane, Then Miu Shun passed it to Yim Yee,
Yim Yee passed the Siu Lin Tau to Leong the husband of Yim Wing Chun. Leong passed the art to the Red Junk. HS


The Cho's preserve one set from Yik Kam, the Siu Lien Tao, which for them is a much longer set with 4 sections. The first 3 sections are similar to the other WCK branches doing Siu Lien/Nim Tao, Chum Kiu, and Biu Jee back to back, and the 4th section (if memory serves) contains the 'mother' or core cycle techniques (which you find similar things to in other lineage's San Sik.
((Without more info-dont understand section 4, But understand
the longer -fusion- 3 part form))

Similar to Some others who are in this forum and who has read the 12 zhuang book.

if you read the book,
you will notice the similarity of Some moves in Chum Kiu and Biu Tze Stuffs within the 12 zhuang . if you check into the
horizontal Hum Gey/Jee Sau of Ermei 12 Jong in relation to modern day Chum Kiu, and the side-way Hum Jee in relation to Bil Jee's elbow stike.

HS




and have a very strange parallel to the Kuen Kuet for the Emei 12 Postures. Other parts of the Kuen Kuit are strangely parallel to Fujian White Crane Kuen Kuit.
((Logically- can be continuous link to emei or 1860s fusion of emei and fujian crane?))


I was joking with my sifu that may be there is fax between the goldern summit of Emei and Red Junk. LOL. HS




As to older and the rest, each branch may contain some elements that are "older" and some that are "newer" (even a branch that sprouted earlier keeps growing, and in some cases has more time to twist and turn). In this case, the Yik Kam/Cho branch of Wing Chun Kuen sprouted about the same time as everyone else (Cho Shun returning to Panyu after the Qing purge, roughly when Wong Wah-Bo went to Foshan, etc.), and while they doubtless have their own developments, they also seem to have retained some elements from the past that could possibly give us an insight into our collective history.

((Interesting if some of the puzzles can be articulated more.
Thanks, Joy)))


At that time, in the red junk while starting the revolution to aid the Taiping to anti Qing, those artists were Hung Mun. But, one needs exchange of salutation and code to identify which sect one belongs to.


I hope every family Win at the end and take pride on the culture our ancestors had.

Best Wishes for all WCK family.

[Hendrik]

Rene,

Thanks for helping me to explain things in good english.
I hope that after this, people understand more about the emei and can share in peace.

Got to travel. Thanks again. sign off.

[S.Teebas]

Whats that flower thing on the picture?

[TjD]

this is all extremely interesting... could anyone with more knowledge than me mabye translate that picture? :) then it would make a whole lot more sense

[Hendrik]

" sticking/cluing searching for palm and wrist.
massage/Pressing/covering to listern/sinking his/her force.
Dont' against the rushing horse's Jing,
Horizontally, locked the wild bull's feet.

Sealling/closing borrow the incoming technics......"---- eRmei 12 Zhuang kuen kuit.

Sound Wing Chun? :D

[yuanfen]

Many many thanks to Hendrik for patiently trying to share his
conception of an important but murky subject and thanks to Rene for helping clear up the communication muddles. I find parts of the discussion fascinating...and I dont have a vseted interest in the history and I have no idea sans pictures atleast on how the
Chow family deals with the details of motion. Things can be conceptually more clear than the operational developments.

In tracing the anrecedents of an entity its good to isolate a key element as a tracer. Using the ygkym as a tracer certainly is a good idea and if the Emei zhuang/jong includes a prallel to the ygkym-thats important information. I am not bothered by the
journey back and forth between the emei deeper(energy/spirit) preoccupations with the zhuang and the ultimate applications later in a martial context. The ygkym is indeed IMO a channel opening posture- the taiji zhuang does not have a monopoly on it though that also is good. The zigzags of the ygkym is interesting. Hung Gar has it but its wing chun that has steadfastly developed it. The development was probably plural--different groups adding and subtracting at different times. The Ng Mui story(or the Leung Bik one later<g>)) has never bothered me- because listing her asa creator of different styles is not an unknown way in Asia to honor a founder- piling up credit on them. Lots of water under the bridge on developing footwork and other details to the basic foundations.
I dont have the slightest idea who Miu Shun was and the fujian connections is still fuzzy to me- I havent seena crane ygkym...though of course I havent seen everything or enough to have a firm opinion. Enough rambling- kudos to Hendrik and Rene
for sharing an interesting journey..

[Hendrik]

Joy,

It is fun to trace back and forth the history, the DNA, the buddhism... and sharing.

Discuss in a friendly and fun way and everyone benifit.

" I am number one or the oldest or the best fighter or I know it all. " for me that is suffering.

[yylee]

I am no buddhist, so I just say "Buddhist Heaven" on the bottom. All the words in that box are beyond me to explain :p

[planetwc]

Hendrik, Joy and Rene,

I totally agree. I find this direction of inquiry fascinating.
Especially the approach that Hendrik is taking, which is history for history's sake and not a marketing agenda--as we've seen over the last 3 decades from various lineages.

It has always struck me as counter intutitive that Wing Chun would derive from Shao lin or even that it developed as some sort of Shao lin "anti-matter". The postures, structures and forms seem diametrically different from Shao lin.

It looks more like a cover story for something else, and Emei is an interesting direction to look.

Now if we can just see the Emei 12 zhang (and Fujian White Crane) in pictures or video...even better!

Regards,

David Williams


Originally posted by Hendrik
Joy,

It is fun to trace back and forth the history, the DNA, the buddhism... and sharing.

Discuss in a friendly and fun way and everyone benifit.

" I am number one or the oldest or the best fighter or I know it all. " for me that is suffering.

[yylee]

got to look up some old dictionaries to correct my translations!:rolleyes:

[reneritchie]

Joy, David,

There are a lot of hints to Emei in WCK. One Ng Mui story has her as a disciple of Ngok Ga Kuen in the Emei temples. An old article claims WCK breathing is of the 'natural' Emei style (as opposed to the Wudang or Shaolin regimented methods), and a third that WCK cam from Fujian, through Sichuan, and into Guangdong (this, FWIW, matches a common immigration pattern during the Qing).

Mui Shun is named in both Sum Nung and Cho family legends as a monk who learned the White Crane system from Ng Mui and mixed it with his own system (un-named) and taught it to Yim Yee (who in turn taught Yim Wing-Chun). I believe Hendrik considers him a cover character for the person(s) who combined Twelve Postures with White Crane.

Beyond the legends and the various stories, however, I find Hendrik's idea of comparing written records and "DNA" (actual core methodology) to be facinating. For example, many systems have something similar to the YJKYM, but they do not use it the same way (do not align and do not generate power the same way as WCK does). Shaolin's core methodology does not seem to match WCK. Perhaps the Twelve Postures will? (or at least will enough that we can trace the what WCK developed from).

The Fujian/White Crane, if I understand Hendrik correctly, would be the other part of the puzzle. First, the manner of construction of his Kuen Kuit suggests Fujian origins to him (though Chinese characters are Chinese characters, different times and places had different styles of writing and sometimes different meanings or ways of saying things - like Cantonese 'drink' soup and Shanghainese 'eat' soup). Second, those parts which do not seem to parallel the Twelve Postures seem to parallel Fujian White Crane Kuen Kuit. Third, he believes that technical/conceptual content from White Crane is still extent in WCK (i.e. Tan Sao = Water Palm, Pak Sao = Fire Palm, etc.) (I should point out that White Crane has since evolved into several versions, so this references the core San Sik of the ancestral White Crane system). Fourth, White Crane is established in Fujian (came from there and is still found there) and was already in Guangdong (and in fact on the Red Junks) by the mid 1800s.

Hopefully, though as you said he's not a market machine and has limited resources, his work will continue and we'll get to see if it pans out.

RR

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

Does anyone know where one can find this Emei 12 posture qi gong book? Anyone have an author's name, isbn number, or anything that might be helpfull in procuring a copy?

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Sandman2[Wing Chun]
Does anyone know where one can find this Emei 12 posture qi gong book? Anyone have an author's name, isbn number, or anything that might be helpfull in procuring a copy?


I would recomend Chow's book. since that is first hand information.

Chow Chien- Chuan's book are rare. But try in Chinese Book Store.

Here has Chow's biography and sad things happen to Chow...
Frame and.... But he did left us great treasure.

http://www.chinaqigong.net/qgb/wrbz/history4.htm

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by yylee
got to look up some old dictionaries to correct my translations!:rolleyes:

Good.
Thanks David.

[Hendrik]

Rene,

Thanks for helping to explain.

The path of searching is not obvious. I think it is mostly Karma.
What the ancestors will releave they will reveal themself.

See, For example, one book by Chow Chien-Chuan was delayed to be published from 1962 to 1983. Due to Chow was frame later die in prison. this book was almost destroy. Luckily his family kept it in the Pillow or something If I remember right.
and it has to wait 21 years before it was published.

Some how, I heard about this book in the 1962's writing (somewhere) but I don't know the above story.
Strangely, I got this book.

As for the 12 zhuang book, I also got it accidentally. Nothing Plan.

I got the White Crane Kuen Kuit on Sun Hand from a guy I don't know when I mention the Sun hand in a conversation. He turned out to be a senior in White Crane and give me the Kuen Kuit.

Same with the Shang Hai's Dien Chun Dang and the Book written about those brothers who link to the Red Junk.


These incidents about history or DNA stuffs are not logical or scientific but that is how I got them.

So, may be, since I am a buddhist and superstitous.
May be that is the Heaven's or the Ancestors' way of telling me to Share for that is not my effort.
I was just there in the right time and right place. Pure lucky.



Since I am a buddhist and as a buddhist I belive in Karma.

I don't know what you all might find if you all start this search of root, may be powerfull technics might surface.

So, I feel responsible to share the following. Otherwise I don't feel right.

As my sifu Ven. Hsuan Hua, the Chan patriach, one of the Succesor of Ven. Hsu Yun had seriously told me.

One who kills other will end up be kill.
One who hurts other will end up be hurt.

Hero is the one who help with compasionate and contructive, Not the one who destroy with hatret , vengens, and fill with agression of "I am number one" try me!


I know what I said is strange for alots of people but then I would not take this litely.

As in the Kuen kuit of 12 zhuang also remind us the samething.
The follower of Buddha should not hurt or kill.

Please make this search a constructive, positive, benifit to all, and not creating bad karma. Make happy ending where everyone win.

[{i^(]

While I'm more "none of the above" when it comes to religious issues, nonetheless this is a most informative series you are doing here, and it is very much helping me to conceptualize and understand things more clearly.

So I just wanted to thank you for it.

[yuanfen]

Hendrik- I think that if someone publishes the 12 Zhuang MS in English they will be doing the TCMA world a real service and it should sell reasonably well.
Joy

[yuanfen]

What is the full info on identifying Chow's book- went to the book store area in the "Chinese" Cultutal Center(PRC-COFCO property)-
couldnt find anything similar. Can you sell me a copy? ( private email- if you can) THX.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by {i^(
While I'm more "none of the above" when it comes to religious issues, nonetheless this is a most informative series you are doing here, and it is very much helping me to conceptualize and understand things more clearly.

So I just wanted to thank you for it.


Thanks.

To be real honest, I have no intention to be religious here.
I am presenting what is the belive in the Chinese Buddhism.
Since Chinese Buddhism related to Chinese MA.

However, it is just a concern to all of us that, since we all are just human, we might not use things properly unintetionally or due to emotional.

:D as spiderman movie said.
"great power comes with great responsibilites." So hopefully those who have the great power becarefull.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Hendrik- I think that if someone publishes the 12 Zhuang MS in English they will be doing the TCMA world a real service and it should sell reasonably well.
Joy

Joy,

The 12 Zhuang book by Chow is always a classic since it was published.

To be real honest, it needs alots of Chinese Classical background/TCM/Buddhism/Daoism to understand. Chow himself is a man with alots of capabilities. He knows both western science educated and meet his sifu who cue his disease. And started his journey into the Emei 12 Zhuang.

I think sooner or later someone in university of asian study might do a translation to this book which is a treasure of China.

Now, obviously there is concern. As it said, Buddha and Demo King only different by a thin thread, one thought screw up we all can be demon. He who knows to heal knows to kill. That is beyond the benifit of a single person but a responsible for the society.

As I read Chow's book, There are things that Chow released and there are things that Chow only release to certain people. He is aware of these things beside he is also a Doctor and buddhist.
This is a difficult subject.

Actually, that lead to another thought of mine, why does Dr. Leong Jan doesn't passed down anything in writing. That doesn't make sense in the logical thought that he is a doctor knows' TCM, involved with the Red Junk..... He should know alots.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by yuanfen
What is the full info on identifying Chow's book- went to the book store area in the "Chinese" Cultutal Center(PRC-COFCO property)-
couldnt find anything similar. Can you sell me a copy? ( private email- if you can) THX.


The Full title of the book is:


Chi Kung Lia Fa
(Chi Kung Therapy)
Emei 12 Zhuang Seh Mi
( The explaination of the secret of Emei 12 Zhuang)

By Chow Chien-Chuan

It is published by San Xi people publisher.
issue by San Xi Xing Hua bookstore.

Since this is a book written in 1960. and reprint in 1983
There are no Isbn number.


My appology that
I got only one old old looks copy. So I can't sell it to you.


Here I would like to conclude my discussion by thanking everyone here on the discussion about this topic. And thanks Rene and David on helping to make things clear in English.

Good luck and best wishes to all in the journey of searching!
Here I signed off for now.

[yuanfen]

Actually, that lead to another thought of mine, why does Dr. Leong Jan doesn't passed down anything in writing. That doesn't make sense in the logical thought that he is a doctor knows' TCM, involved with the Red Junk..... He should know alots.

((Supposedly Leung Jan did leave some notes...Yip Man supposedly and copied them-- in any case there are 3 "books" floating around on dim mak and healing points, on TCM and herbal formulae. But lots of masters depend on oral transmission.
BTW agree with you that pure Chan rejects intentional killing and points to the inexorable karma that follows action. Given the diffusion of Chan lots of folks have made it to be whatever they want it to be. As a result of the transmission of Chan via Dogen to Japan- the shoto zen held steadfast against Japanese militarism and leaders were imprisoned by Tojo's people. But the rinzai zen and other sects were coopted by the shintoist call to nationalism))Yuanfen

[reneritchie]

Joy, Hendrik,

In parallel to the 50-foot killer shark/suspect zero paraphrase I made on the other thread, just because we don't know of Leung Jan leaving behind a Kuen Po (not TCM books, but actual detailed books on WCK), doesn't mean he didn't. They may not have been handed down to any of the better know sifu, or may have at some point been lost, destroyed (like some material was in Gulao at some point from flood/fire?), or simply not passed further. Can't disprove them negatives.

WRT the rest, people are the most remarkable creatures. They can justify anything if it suits their purpose(s), sometimes even to themselves.

RR

[hunt1]

To echo Renee Leung Jan had several students from Fatshan yet we only know the teachings of one or 2 (Chan Wah and Leung Bik). Chan Wah had several students yet only the teachings from 2 or 3 are known. Many other WC teachers had several students yet the teachings of only a very few are known.

It is very likely other writings may exist but are kept within families.Let us not forget that without Yip Mans need for a living very very few of us would be learning WC today. It is far more likely WC would be taught as other semi-secret arts like SPM or Bak Mei. In fact the question should be asked why would anyone want to make knowledge public and subject themselves to all the nonsence we see on this and other forums on a daily basis.

Kudos to Hendrik for entering the limelight.

Also to all would be historians is Leung Ting the only one to make an effort to look outside of WC to find the source of WC. It is very likely that since other arts like Hung Gar,Choy lai Fut, Bak mei and Spm come from and were practiced in the same region as WC that these arts may shed some light on WC. Hard to believe that Laung Jan and Chan Wah would have had such fearsome fighting reputations if they did not fight players of these other arts.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Hendrik,


1) This information is quite interesting. I was kind of curious to know how similar are the 12 posts to something like Yi Chuan's post training? I only have some basics in the Yi Chuan but figure that might be a good way to think/look at your thoughts!

2) I am not sure Leung Jan preserves his art in the same way the Cho's and yourself preserve the art. You seem to have a very nice link to the past (or possible original intent of a portion of the art) but do you feel it is possible that Wong Wah Bo may have discarded many of these elements and focused on the simplistic boxing?

3) There were a series of books (12 to be exact (funny number huh)) written on the life of Dr. Leung Jan but they were lost during a flood sometime during the early 60's in Koo Lo. The person who wrote them was Law Wai Man. I think there were a couple of accupoint books written by Dr. Leung Jan but the point locations were not supposed to be accurate and more similar to Bronze Man foto's. As far as I have been told his work (tcm/doctor) and martial were two different areas.


Thanks for the thought provoking information!


Regards,

[yuanfen]

Jim R sez:This information is quite interesting. I was kind of curious to know how similar are the 12 posts to something like Yi Chuan's post training? I only have some basics in the Yi Chuan but figure that might be a good way to think/look at your thoughts!
---------------------------------------------------
Jim- If I understood Hendrik and Rene correctly, the I Chuan
stancing is somewhat different from the Emei posting- .
Joy

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Jim- If I understood Hendrik and Rene correctly, the I Chuan
stancing is somewhat different from the Emei posting- .
Joy


Joy,

You are correct.
We don't have to go to I Chuan etc.
IMHO,
A "lively, nature, details, smooth" SLT/SNT is closed to the Emei posting.

[Hendrik]

Hi Jim,


"2) I am not sure Leung Jan preserves his art in the same way the Cho's and yourself preserve the art. You seem to have a very nice link to the past (or possible original intent of a portion of the art) but do you feel it is possible that Wong Wah Bo may have discarded many of these elements and focused on the simplistic boxing?"


IMHO,
Since we still have SLT/SNT, CK, BJ from different lineages and certain element of Gu Lao has linked to Emei art today,
these all serve as an evident that Wong Wah Bo did not discarded elements.
He might teaches different people differently but elements are there in the three forms and applications in general.


IMHO, your definition of "focused on simplisitic boxing" has to be define carefully.

For me,
a, simplisitic cannot be simplified.
b, Simplisitic cannot be taken away the depth of the art.
C, according to the classical Tee Yong or (body and application) concept if the focus is just on application of boxing.
The system is incomplete.

In addition, IMHO,

when people claim that the olderst WCK have one single hand technic such as Fok Sau or pak sau or tan say. That can't be done. As it is said in I-Ching, The single Yang will not Grow.

In addition,
if people claim that one has to only stand there rigid in YJKYM and moving only one's hand/arm can produce power or Jing.
That also can't be done. IMHO.

The reason is one needs Oxigen flow in all part of the body to be healty.

By placing the whole body in a tensing state and just moving the hand will not get Oxigen smoothly fill the body, without oxigen flow freely in the body how will that generate power?

Not to mention, constantly tensing the body with Chest breathing such as people in stress might induce high blood pressure. That is pulling reverse gear to the practitioner's health. That is not an "lively" art but a "deadly" one.




"3) There were a series of books (12 to be exact (funny number huh)) written on the life of Dr. Leung Jan but they were lost during a flood sometime during the early 60's in Koo Lo. The person who wrote them was Law Wai Man. I think there were a couple of accupoint books written by Dr. Leung Jan but the point locations were not supposed to be accurate and more similar to Bronze Man foto's. As far as I have been told his work (tcm/doctor) and martial were two different areas. "


I belive there are alots of things we didn't see yet. Someday, in some village of China, may be writing of Dr. Leong might reveal itself. Ancestors always releave themself.


"Thanks for the thought provoking information!"

You are welcome.
My view is simple, if we all can discuss WCK technic for technical sake. History for History sake then everyone will benifit. Since we all are not perfect and certainly can learn from each others.


But sometimes people think differently.

Such as recently, I am trying to tell some one what they present about Chan is opposite to Chan's teaching.

Chan is about seeing the buddha nature. It is about Spontanues and body experience about letting go and flow. then one will be able to enjoy the tranquill of trancendental or the nature.

But then, instead, some people pull a reverse gear to creat alots of ideas and attach to such thoughts as the oldest ect. Certainly, that is a nice idea. However, that is only fit for computer when one program it to do things this way or that way. It is similar to the design of robotic where the better robot has higher degree of freedom.

In Chan, the attachment to particular idea is named as " Attactment to Dhama." The attachement to oneself is named as "Attactment to self". Certainly, Chan teaches people to learn ideas and repect oneself and sifu etc. But not holding an idea or a sifu God like. That is attachment and delusion. So, Chan practitioner has to "break" the above two attachments instead of holding them like Jewels.


Best Wishes.

Ps. since my schedule is tigh. I am sign in on and off. Sorry If I might missed your' post.

[yuanfen]

IMHO,
Since we still have SLT/SNT, CK, BJ from different lineages and certain element of Gu Lao has linked to Emei art today,
these all serve as an evident that Wong Wah Bo did not discarded elements.
He might teaches different people differently but elements are there in the three forms and applications in general.

((I think so too. I probably disagree with Jim on Leung Jan...I know his commitment to Koo Lo and respect it...but LJ's art
did come down in the Ip man line ofcourse IMO- withouta time machine that none of us have))


IMHO, your definition of "focused on simplisitic boxing" has to be define carefully.

For me,
a, simplisitic cannot be simplified.
b, Simplisitic cannot be taken away the depth of the art.
C, according to the classical Tee Yong or (body and application) concept if the focus is just on application of boxing.
The system is incomplete.

((Yes engineering has to have its physics and its epistemology))

In addition, IMHO,

when people claim that the olderst WCK have one single hand technic such as Fok Sau or pak sau or tan say. That can't be done. As it is said in I-Ching, The single Yang will not Grow.

((Single tan sau foundation thesis os nonsense IMO -no matter who advances the thesis))

In addition,
if people claim that one has to only stand there rigid in YJKYM and moving only one's hand/arm can produce power or Jing.
That also can't be done. IMHO.

((Sorry to disagree Hendrik--- good YGKYM should noy be "rigid"))


The reason is one needs Oxigen flow in all part of the body to be healty.

By placing the whole body in a tensing state and just moving the hand will not get Oxigen smoothly fill the body, without oxigen flow freely in the body how will that generate power?

((Sorry to disagree again- our disgreement revolves around "tensing" state- wrong description or wrong state
described))

Not to mention, constantly tensing the body with Chest breathing such as people in stress might induce high blood pressure.

((Who does that? I dont. And no sanchin breathing either))

That is pulling reverse gear to the practitioner's health. That is not an "lively" art but a "deadly" one.

((Imprpoer breathing -yes. properly done- no))


Ancestors always releave themself.

(( I dont know about that. Entropy))



Such as recently, I am trying to tell some one what they present about Chan is opposite to Chan's teaching.

(((Usage of verbalisms as ideology..))


In Chan, the attachment to particular idea is named as " Attactment to Dhama." The attachement to oneself is named as "Attactment to self". Certainly, Chan teaches people to learn ideas and repect oneself and sifu etc. But not holding an idea or a sifu God like. That is attachment and delusion. So, Chan practitioner has to "break" the above two attachments instead of holding them like Jewels.

((True)