Kung Fu Black Belt to fight in next UFC! [Archive]

Royal Dragon

09-22-2002, 08:42 AM

Can I use small joint manipulations (finger Chi na)?

If I throw a guy head first on the mat and he's not killed or knocked out because of the mat (As opposed to hard ground), can I kick him in the head to get a knockout wile he is lying there? Can I get behind his head and perform "monkey pounds the mortar" (a low horse stance that hammer fists the ground, or opponent's face wile he is on the ground)? Don Frey used to do this one alot in the early UFC's, with great results.

From what I understand, if your opponent is on the ground, you have to "rassle" him. You can't stay on your feet (where it's safe) and use real Kung Fu to finish him. I think it's against the rules.

Also, can I intentionally rip his elbows apart with a Chi Na?? Or is intentionally maiming your opponent illegal? What about breaking a finger? Is it OK to spear hand an opponenet in the jugular? What about a "Cutting" Slice to the eye socket?

Am I allowed to throw him on his back and stomp on his face real hard? Can I grab his head and slam the back of it into the mat as hard as I can?? Would it even work because it's a mat he's falling on instead of hard ground like the real world?

Can get behind a guy and iron palm his floating rib so hard it gets driven into and internal organ and causes internal bleeeding?? I may want to do that to slow em down for my throw and subsequent face stomp, is that allowed?

Can I knife hand him in the back of the head or based of brain?

Can I elbow him in the eye socket?

Am I allwed to Iron Palm him in the fragile side of the head for a knockout? And them throw him on the ground and kneel on his neck to make sure he's out cold?

If I can't do all this stuff, I'd have to go learn BJJ and Muy tai to fight in this venue, and I really don't want to waste my time with that. Heck, if I could do what I wanted in the Kuo Sho, i'd already be fighting there anyway.

Never mind, I'm not interested anyway.

wiz cool c

09-22-2002, 09:45 AM

That's a stupid question. who cares? That's like saying how do you think Oscar De La Hoya would do? People do what they like... what makes them happy. Not everyone wants to be a professional fighter.

SevenStar

09-22-2002, 10:02 AM

can you do the majority of those things in a shuai chiao tourney?

no.

can you do the majority of them in san shou?

no.

can you do the majority of them in kuo shu?

no.

bjj guys do use small joint manipulation to some extent. They know not to use it in competitions though. If they can adapt, so could any CMA. CMA is not the only style that would prefer to remain standing and fight or run if their opponent was on the ground. However, they adapt to the situation. Adaptability is an important to an art as the techniques you learn. How good is it if you can only use it in certain situations?

And, if I'm not mistaken, In Pride you can knee your opponent in the head while you are both on the ground.

CMA trains punches, kicks, elbows and knees, correct? that and a little grappling knowledge is more than enough to survive in NHB, so rule restriction isn't really a factor, IMO. When you train in your club, do you maim other students, do you use, chin na to dislocate, or do you stop when you see their reaction and know they feel it? Granted there are rule restrictions that make it less than realistic when compared to a street altercation, but those restrictions apply to more than CMA.

And actually, some of the things you mentioned are legal. If you want to palm him in the floating ribs, feel free. once it slows him (if it slows him) g'head and throw him. if you do cause internal bleeding, that's on your conscience. Want to elbow him in the eye? g'head.

I even seem to remember a rule (can't remember what venue) where after you knocked someone down, you could kick them once. Dunno if that's still allowed though, as I can't even remember the venue.

and you may not be able to do "monkey pounds the mortar" but you can to GnP - punches and elbows from a mounted position.

UltimateFighter

09-22-2002, 10:29 AM

In a street environment a kung fu practicioner would do better than in a ring. In an MMA match most TMA's including kung fu would get raped. Kung Fu guys have entered before and have gotten a spanking. On the streets, they would probably still lose but mainly because most kung fu training is unrealistic for real fighting (especially compared to how kung fu was trained in reality historically in China).

But technichly, there is no reason why some kung fu styles (i.e san sou, shouldin, wing chun and.......thats about it) could not be extremely effective in MMA as a style to cross train in. They just need to train for it. But please, leave hung gar and monkey style to the chinese opera.

SevenStar

09-22-2002, 10:45 AM

That was a troll post, but I'm going to dignify it anyway. ALL styles of TMA have realistic basics that can be used in MMA. the difference is not the style, it's how some of them train it. They aren't training themselves to be in a ring, they are training themselves for a quick response situation. Don Wislon (:rolleyes: , yeah I know) is a good example of how adaptable cma can be when you train for what you want to do. he wanted to use his cma for kickboxing and trained accordingly. And he did a **** good job. It's not the style that matters, it's the fighter and their method of training.

Royal Dragon

09-22-2002, 11:44 AM

"and you may not be able to do "monkey pounds the mortar" but you can to GnP - punches and elbows from a mounted position."

reply]
But I don't want to do that, I want to use the Monkey stye method, it leaves more opening for escape if need be.

SevenStar,
My point is there are rules in any venue. Since I can't do what I want in any of them anyway, why would the UFC be an attraction for me when I could just go fight in the circuites that are already established for Kung Fu?? At least there if I slamm someone on the ground real hard it's recognised that in reality that guy would be done for because the ground is hard and I would get points or cerdit for doing so. in UFC, the fight continues with "Rassleing" or what basically constitues skills that would not really come into play in the real world outside of freindly play.

If we are suposed to be trying to simulate reality in order to test the arts, don't you think that recognising a hard slam into the mat would be devistaing enough to end the fight?? UFC does not do this. This means many of the fight stoping techniques used by CMA's would not produce favorable results as they would in the street, or even in our own competitive venues. So why bother? It's too much effort to re train for that stuff, it's easier to just fight in our own competitions.

SevenStar

09-22-2002, 12:16 PM

My point is that ALL of the competitions will have restrictions, first off. second, why enter a tourney with only CMA? Of course, competition is not for everybody, but if I'm going to compete, I want to compete somewhere that's open to all styles so that I can test my skill against any person of any style that I may come up against. Currently, MMA is the most realistic venue out there that I've seen, and even though it is a sport, I guarantee you that just due to the nature of the way they train, they can hold their own in the street. It doesn't really matter if they don't give points for slamming into the ground as you mentioned (Judo does recognize that, however you don't get points for it. They will break the competitors up, and they will restart.) What matters is that when they train and when they compete, they do the slams and throws with plenty of force. Since they train that way, it will carry over to the street. since they fight full contact, hitting with power will carry over to the street. If I'm in the street and a throw ends the fight, cool. It's not something I'm gonna rely on solely though, especially if it's someting that I can't train full power on a regular basis, like an eye gouge.

Since I don't train eye gouges full power all the time against resisting opponents, I'm not sure that I can pull that off in the street. I do throw people with speed and power almost daily. I KNOW I can do that.

Water Dragon

09-22-2002, 12:20 PM

A hard slam on the street is easier said than done. I know I'm not at a point where I can depend on that. And neither are you. Lil Joe, maybe. MJ and the Groin Ripper? Well of course. But they've been doing this stuff for over ten years.

The point of an NHB competition is not to be some sort of Kung Fu God from a Hong Kong movie. The point is to see where you rank against the other guys. More importantly, the idea is to figure out how to make YOUR stuff work against other people who are trying to make THEIR stuff work against you.

Second point is to figure out what to do when YOUR stuff doesn't work exactly how you want it to. Murphy's Law. (No, not THAT Murphy :D )

If you don't want to do it, that's cool. I couldn't do it now either. Conditioning, roadwork, all that jazz play a huge part when both fighters are skilled. But the reason is not that our styles can't compete. The reason is the level of intensity in training. Pure and simple.

SevenStar

09-22-2002, 12:28 PM

"At least there if I slamm someone on the ground real hard it's recognised that in reality that guy would be done for because the ground is hard and I would get points or cerdit for doing so. in UFC, the fight continues with "Rassleing" or what basically constitues skills that would not really come into play in the real world outside of freindly play. "

Actually, not recognizing adds an element of reality, as it adds the "What if your hard throw doesn't stop him?" question. What kills the reality is if the fighter chooses to go the ground with his downed opponent and grapple him.

If the throw actually ends the fight in MMA, they will then stop it, like when frank shamrock slammed an opponent on his head, instantly knocking him unconscious.

SevenStar

09-22-2002, 12:33 PM

WD is right. It's an unestablished tradition that I throw him on a hardwood floor every time I see him( :D ), and even though it's uncomfortable, he's always able to get up. of course, I've never slammed him on his head, but it does go to show that not every throw on a hard surface is an ender.

Water Dragon

09-22-2002, 12:55 PM

Those hard throws also come from power throwing. We haven't even got into power throwing yet. First comes structure. This is the reason for the focus on the stance and form work. Until I can make my throws happen consistently by walking thu with proper structure, I can't juice it to get the power throw. I'm hoping to be able to that consistently in about a year. That's the plan anyhoo.

Once I can use my structure, without it breaking down, on a resisting opponent, then I can start to juice it. Right now I can get people down, but it's sloppy. It's more a matter of me having better control over the incidence of both our centers than anything else. In essence, I'm still making people fall down. I'm not throwing yet. MJ throws, and the difference is signifigant. MJ uses pure structure. MJ has done the stance work, has done the forms, has already accomplished what we're going through.

I've been thrown before. Believe me, it feels totaly diferent. Your body is controlled ALL THE WAY DOWN It's a helluva goal to work for though, and keeps me coming back. One day's training yields one days effort. Until then, it's best to know what to do when the guy DOES get up after the throw.

And Sev, I think that's one tradition we can let die. Last time rocked me a little. You shook the floor enough with me that everyone looked at us like

:eek:

SevenStar

09-22-2002, 01:14 PM

yeah, I noticed that too....Perhaps we should let that one go :) We gotta keep rolling though.

Merryprankster

09-22-2002, 02:50 PM

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
I'd imagine pretty poorly.

The rules are stacked against kung fu fighters.

Street fighting - that's DIFFERENT.

Yawn.

Not this tired excuse again.

I have posted the PRIDE rules here SEVERAL times. The restrictions are on elbows, eyegouging, groin shots, biting, small joint manipulations, and throat strikes and tears. You may drop people on their heads, hit them anywhere else you choose, knee the daylights out of them, and yes, BOOTSTOMP them if you drop them on their heads.

If these rules are the difference between a style's success or failure in the ring, the style SUCKS. It's long on tricks and short on fighting. Pride would KILL to have a Kung Fu master in the ring. Trust me--they'd LOVE to hype that!

The last time I got into this, somebody used the rule against stalling as a reason the rules were biased against CMA. :rolleyes: Please remember that refusing to engage (as the rule is termed) is about running away actively, or butt scooting the whole match. You want to engage, and block/avoid every strike or grapple attempt, be my guest.

Utter garbage. Let's call a spade a spade--Legitimate CMA is underrepresented in ringfighting because most of them just don't care about it. If a really good and gifted CMAist got in there and trained for it properly they'd do fine.

Heck, I don't see Shooter throwing out excuses. They get in there and perform recognizing the value of the ringfight venue, (some hard knocks experience, a reasonably safe environment to test your fight skills--which are different from SD skills) while never mistaking it for reality.

That's the trick, isn't it?

But drop the freaking rules stuff. Somehow the rules are anti-CMA, but San Shou, which is more restricted is just fine for CMAists to compete in? Rubbish, rubbish and then again, oddly enough, rubbish.

And this was definitely a troll post. And I don't think the ring is the street.

Royal Dragon

09-22-2002, 03:11 PM

Actually, not recognizing adds an element of reality, as it adds the "What if your hard throw doesn't stop him?" question. What kills the reality is if the fighter chooses to go the ground with his downed opponent and grapple him.

If the throw actually ends the fight in MMA, they will then stop it, like when frank shamrock slammed an opponent on his head, instantly knocking him unconscious.

Reply]
Ok, but they are on a matt. if you really threw a guy on the hard ground, a good number of those throws would NOT end up in ground hugging grappeling. They would end up with the thrown opponent having the wind knocked out of him. If "I" go down with my opponent, I'm not grappeling him, I'm crushing him with my knees, elbows or fists and getting up as fast as I can before he reverses it on me.

In the street, you have much more to worry about than a ring fight, especialy freinds of your attacker. The LAST thing you want is to get tied up in a "Rasslin" match wile his friends are kicking the stuffing out of your ribs. Slam him down hard and stomp him harrder. It's always worked for me, and in my youth I fought a couple of times a week (Accidentally beat up this badass dude, and everyone wanted to fight me after that).

Anyway, since all fight venuse are heaviliy ruled, and not realistic anyway, why fight in the UFC when you can go to the Kuo Sho? or some other venue where power slamming a guy on the ground is recognised as the fight ending move that it is?? If you have to have a mat for safety, then you should recognise that it allows normally fight ending attacks to be recovered from, have little effect and compensate for it. When the UFC does that, then I will hold it in higher regaurd.

SevenStar

09-22-2002, 03:20 PM

1. a throw is not always fight ending, like it was not when I threw WD on the HARDWOOD. will it take some of the fight out of you? yes. Is it a guaranteed ender? Not necessarily. it's the 'not necessarily' part that I'm concerned with. That's when the stomp comes in, which as MP stated, is allowed in Pride.

2. by doing mma you would be available to test yourself against any other style, not just other cma, like kuo shu.

3. most people are blinded by what they see of bjj. the avg bjj guy doesn't want to go to the ground in a fight, but he knows what to do if it does go there.

Royal Dragon

09-22-2002, 03:22 PM

The contests are fought on a platform ranging currently from two to three feet high, and twenty four by twenty four feet square.

Contests are decided by either knockout, or point accumulation, with the current point structures as follows below:

One point awarded for any clean and powerful strike to any valid target area. (Forbidden targets are the groin, back brain and throat only.) (No gouging permitted.)
Two points awarded for a clean throwing technique, where the person executing the throw does not touch the floor with any part of his/her body other than the feet. (No ground fighting permitted.)
Three points awarded for execution of a technique, whether strike or throw, that succeeds in ejecting the opponent off the platform entirely.

In International competitions, strikes with the Hands, Feet, Elbows and Knees are allowed.
Unfortunetly, this is not the case with national fights, this, and no ground and pound (traditional Chinese groundfighting) are my only compliants.

Le nOObi

09-22-2002, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by UltimateFighter
But technichly, there is no reason why some kung fu styles (i.e san sou, shouldin, wing chun and.......thats about it) could not be extremely effective in MMA as a style to cross train in. They just need to train for it. But please, leave hung gar and monkey style to the chinese opera.

How has say wingchun demonstrated the fact that it is more effective than any other CMA?

SevenStar

09-22-2002, 03:28 PM

no GnP? No eye gouging? that's no more real than pride, so if you would enter that, then you could enter pride.... you just don't want to. And ultimately, that's what it comes down to. People that don't compete don't for no other reason than they don't want to. Or possibly that they are insecure. All the rule restriction stuff is BS.

Royal Dragon

09-22-2002, 03:59 PM

no GnP? No eye gouging? that's no more real than pride, so if you would enter that, then you could enter pride....

Reply]
Sure, but is Pride here in Chicago?? I thought that was a Japanese thing. Kuo Sho is right here, I don't have to go very far for it.

SevenStar

09-22-2002, 04:08 PM

They have MMA in indiana...I'll find the link if ya want.

Water Dragon

09-22-2002, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by Royal Dragon

Sure, but is Pride here in Chicago?? I thought that was a Japanese thing. Kuo Sho is right here, I don't have to go very far for it.

www.intensecombat.com

There are a lot of fights at the civic center in Hammond. That's the town where I live. Amateur MMA in Chicago :D

chokeyouout

09-22-2002, 04:38 PM

Trolls don't train 5 days a week.

Will we ever see a Kung Fu anything in MMA?

Anyone can use any fancy strikes except to the eyes and groin.

A martial artist can't win without using those techniques.....?

There is no rasslin rule...

If you don't want to go to the ground then let your Kung Fu skills keep you on your feet.

When will all the hocus pocus clear up and unravel the deadliness of KUNG FU.

The thing that scare's the sh1t talkers is the fact that there's no self promotion or speculation in MMA.

Noone is standing around assuming they can fight; they actually get in the ring and do it.

In most arts a good story and loud KIAAAAA will convince the sheep their well protected.

old jong

09-22-2002, 04:56 PM

J'en suis bouche-bée! :rolleyes:

SevenStar

09-22-2002, 05:11 PM

wtf? I can't read russian... :)

jmd161

09-22-2002, 07:53 PM

Originally posted by UltimateFighter
In a street environment a kung fu practicioner would do better than in a ring. In an MMA match most TMA's including kung fu would get raped. Kung Fu guys have entered before and have gotten a spanking. On the streets, they would probably still lose but mainly because most kung fu training is unrealistic for real fighting (especially compared to how kung fu was trained in reality historically in China).

But technichly, there is no reason why some kung fu styles (i.e san sou, shouldin, wing chun and.......thats about it) could not be extremely effective in MMA as a style to cross train in. They just need to train for it. But please, leave hung gar and monkey style to the chinese opera.

Unrealistic for real fighting.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah:p

You guys make me laugh i love listening to you remote control warriors.

Kung fu is a " War Art " It was used in wars not on just street corners,but wars.
Monkey style Chinese Opera hahahaha.You crack me up

Monkey style won the all asia tournaments several times.You know who was at the all asia toutnaments.Judo,ju jitsu,Muay Thai,karate,kung fu,etc......

just because some kung fu guys lost on UFC everyone wants to talk about MMA and BJJ.If they were the best would'nt everyone do them?You think MMA's and BJJ just arrived with the UFC?I've seen Bjj,muay thai,and mma loose fights bad ,but everyone wants to talk about when karate and kung fu loose.

If you think every kung fu guy fights that way you would be a fool.The problem is not many kung fu people know how to use their techniques.Most cases their sifu's don't even know how to use their technique.just because you know a technique does'nt mean you know how to use it.I will give bjj this they train using their technique so that way they have no choice but to know how to use their technique.Kung fu has gotten away from the traditional training so this is what happens when people think you can cut back on the hard training of old.A bunch of forms is not going to make you a great fighter serious training will.

jmd161 :)

Braden

09-22-2002, 09:09 PM

Helio, when commenting on "BJJ's recent defeat to judo":

PRIDE: What is the difference between judo and jiu-jitsu?

Gracie: Basically, the rules are different. Jiu-jitsu is about fighting in order to beat your opponent. It's a "martial art." But, judo is a "sport" with rules. That's the difference.

:D

P.S. "MMA has no self-promotion" bwahhaahhahaha

Choke

09-22-2002, 10:29 PM

Legitimate CMA is underrepresented in ringfighting because most of them just don't care about it. If a really good and gifted CMAist got in there and trained for it properly they'd do fine.

I totally agree. I don't think the rule restrictions should matter all that much to someone who is keen on competing. There is such a wide range of techs in kung fu systems and an even wider range of applications for those techs that someone who knows their stuff should have no problems competing under pride or UFC rules.

There are also techs in kung fu that one could not use in competition. And no I am not talking about the much-discussed bill gee attacks to eyes and throat. Take for example a simple move where the guy shoots for the legs. The other combatant, a kung fu practitioner, brings his arms in and down striking the hollows on either side of the spine at the back of the neck, pushing the shooter's head into his lower torso, forcing their head back, and breaking their neck.

There are alternative ways to deal with a shoot in kung fu that will not maim or kill.

Now to those who keep on about how all kung fu is useless (esp that idiot who jmd161 quoted above) please feel free to post the video of your fights in UFC, Pride, or any other NHB competitions that you have entered. Remember in all these competitions after two men square off, one loses. Be he MMA, kung fu, street fighting, BJJ, Judo, or kick boxing, etc.

joedoe

09-22-2002, 10:37 PM

Very well said.

Merryprankster

09-23-2002, 12:49 AM

Take for example a simple move where the guy shoots for the legs. The other combatant, a kung fu practitioner, brings his arms in and down striking the hollows on either side of the spine at the back of the neck, pushing the shooter's head into his lower torso, forcing their head back, and breaking their neck.

**** good post except for the above. You actually believe this? Your ass and the ground would become very fast acquaintances if you ever tried this against even a half-competent shooter.

Choke

09-23-2002, 02:06 AM

I like how people take something explained in the most simplest terms possible and say "Your ass and the ground would become very fast acquaintances if you ever tried this" When they don't even know the tech, let alone seen it. How do you know the picture you have in your head from my overly simple description is the reality?

Anyway this was an example. I never said "Hot dam, this will stop any shooter in his tracks every time!" Hell, i didn't even say it would work. It was simply one possibility in a mirriod of possibilities. Something outside the "I go for the throat and eyes" same old same old.

Where is a wall? I feel the sudden need to hit my head against it. Never mind. Carry on.

Merryprankster

09-23-2002, 02:17 AM

Hey sorry bud, you write something that sounds very definite instead of presenting it as a possibility, and that's the type of response you're going to get. Tough.

In keeping with the above, though, I' ll amend my statement--it's possible that what you describe would work, but I'm not betting my money on it.

Nichiren

09-23-2002, 03:56 AM

LMAO!!!!

Merry, you are fighting windmills here....

I train WC myself and I know after training BJJ that it is the method of training thats different. BJJ/Judo etc. go pretty much full force with the techniques at hand and therefor they are very skilled in this type of competition. A KF guy speaks of a 100 deadly moves NEVER practised once because of obvious reason.

Get real KF guys... :D

/Cheers

Souljah

09-23-2002, 04:03 AM

In reply to ULTIMATE FIGHTERS POST
(DELETED AS I WAS WRITING)

Kung fu training ..... unrealistic? I dont think its unrealistic to try and train every part of your body, you never know when you're gonna need it..... which part of kung fu training is unrealistic.

It hasnt differed that much since chinese training, just using different equipment to do imilar exercises

I dont see how you could even say that kf practitioners could'nt even handle a street fight, so they train for tournaments do they?
If a shoalin master cannot even be hurt by a spear point digging into his neck while pushing the load of a car, then how could a fat sweaty thug who likes humping on a mat possible do to him to subdue him, sure this guy maybe a foot taller and 100's of pounds heavier, posible even visible stronger.

But with strength comes weakness and it only takes a well placed acorn to derail the power and might of a train.

I think it would be an insult to even consider a kung fu master of any style would want to lower himself to the thuggish level of the UFC.

Merryprankster

09-23-2002, 04:15 AM

I think it would be an insult to even consider a kung fu master of any style would want to lower himself to the thuggish level of the UFC.

Yes. It's so much less thuggish than "to the death," challenge matches. Or the organized crime that some of the masters have participated in over the centuries. Gosh I wish I could remember the story--the guy was a body guard for one of the gangs, as I recall. That's not thuggish at all. He was the something tiger, if only I could remember it.

Oh, I love you spiritual guys. So much more enlightened than the rest of us. It's really truly wonderful. You claim humility in one breath, then judge others as you see fit. Beautiful--absolutely classic.

If thuggishness is the arrogance of BJJ/MMA/NHB, high-horse, heavy handed snobbery is the arrogance of TMA--and from what I'm reading, ESP CMA.

Note for the comprehension impaired--I don't think that all CMA is snobbish. Just pointing out that if we're going to make gross generalizations, it's fair across the board... ;)

Ryu

09-23-2002, 06:26 AM

:confused:
This again??

Le nOObi

09-23-2002, 12:51 PM

Everyone who commented on ultimate fighters response seems to not realize he practices wing chun.

Ray Pina

09-23-2002, 01:18 PM

Why did everyone attack this person? I think its a legit question.

First, I hope he does really well.

Anyone doing well in that envirnment better be ready to throw down hard. BJJ, kung fu, whatever, you better be ready to hit somebody and -- something I haven't seen anyone do there -- absorb blows.

I'll say this for BJJ and MMA -- they practice how they play. That is their advantage. They don't get caught up in the forms mess.

I hope this man is training hard whoever he is, and is ready to hit these guys upon aproach, as they come in for the grab. Everytime I see an effective striker, they put the grappler down.

BUT, if it goes down, I hope he has enough knowledge on how to create space from being mounted to strike effectively again.

Anyone going in there -- regardless of style -- has my respect.

I hope to join them in a year or so -- God willing.

Souljah

09-24-2002, 05:17 AM

Yes. It's so much less thuggish than "to the death," challenge matches. Or the organized crime that some of the masters have participated in over the centuries. Gosh I wish I could remember the story--the guy was a body guard for one of the gangs, as I recall. That's not thuggish at all. He was the something tiger, if only I could remember it.

A true kung fu master who followed the teachings would not indulge in what you describe here, this is not snobbery, just a different state of mind, what can you possibly gain from them? respect? who wants respect at that price, taking some1s life.

A true kung fu practitioner following any sort of buddhist influence would know that it is against the teachings to harm another unless forced into self defence.

After all the main purpose of kung fu being taught in old china and today, is not so you can go and beat the crap out of some1 is it? It is to allow you to feel confident and be able to DEFEND yourself should any such event arise.
Helping you develop the strengh and discpline to stay out of fights, which i feel is much harder to do than just giving into anger and trying to kill or subdue your opponent.
Although from a utilitarian view you could be doing more good by this as the 'threat would be neutralised' i feel any form of uneeded violence is wrong.
But of course thats just me, and it doesnt matter if you call me ignorant or snobbish because 'sticks and stones', im just making a statement, a small inconclusive view of mine.

neptunesfall

09-24-2002, 06:27 AM

kung fu is just that, kung fu. it's a way to fight.
it does what a person uses it for, just like a gun. if you choose to
use it to only defend yourself, that's what it will do. you can also choose to use it for crime. kung fu itself is not a stringent set of ethics, it's a fighting system. that's all, nothing more, nothing less.
a kung fu master is still just a person, good, bad, what have you. there's nothing that says a kung fu master has to be a sage wise old man, honorable and dilligent in the search for truth and justice and blah blah blah.
just the same as any other martial art.
the grasshopper/sage stereotype of kung fu is just that, a stereotype.

Ray Pina

09-24-2002, 08:04 AM

Well, I disagree a bit. I believe we should raise the standards of MA, so that we are not viewed as some dim-witted thugs.

But first and for most, most MA in general are in no position to use their skills for harm or "evil" because they just don't possess them to a level that I would consider to be a great advantage on the street. Just being honest.

With that said, for those truly pursuing MA I think there are a few paths:

1) learn just to learn and be happy with what you get.

2) Health

3) There will always be the wannabe Shaolin monks (you know who you are)

4) Those that really want to push and test the limits.

For those in group (4), I think these NHB events are a good forum. How do you know? How do you know your skills could defeat a Shamrock?

Yes, after a certain point one feels very confident. I have to say, I feel zero threat on the streets -- even in Manhattan, on the west side, at 3:30 a.m. feeling a little "ire". Situations that can turn bad -- outnumbered, possible weapons, drunks, drugs -- are avoided through experince and a good eye.

But so what? Those are just regular people. How about a really good boxer. A 4th or 5th degree black belt in a good karate system. The BJJ guys. Tai boxers. How do I match up? That is something, I don't want to say concerns me, but intrests me.

I believe in the power of God. I know. I love my fellow man and woman -- I do not want to hurt anyone.

But a chess player needs to play chess -- someone will be mated. Some MA need to go to war -- casulties will happen.

Ford Prefect

09-24-2002, 08:38 AM

Maybe if the KF guy was an icredible athlete and in excellent condition, then he'd have a shot. It wouldn't be that his techniques would be lacking; it would be his attributes. Almost all the guys in high profile productions and all the upper echelon fighters are world class athletes now.

KC Elbows

09-24-2002, 08:46 AM

At this point, I'm fairly certain that this same conversation could be randomly generated by using bits from past conversations on the topic. Heck, even the crowd on mcdojo has stopped arguing this.

neptunesfall

09-24-2002, 08:47 AM

hmm...i have an idea...

Chang Style Novice

09-24-2002, 09:09 AM

"At this point, I'm fairly certain that this same conversation could be randomly generated by using bits from past conversations on the topic."

Casey Bobo is correct.

KC Elbows

09-24-2002, 09:13 AM

Thank you Stank Pile Orifice.

Braden

09-24-2002, 09:28 AM

Actually, a great many of the 'old masters' most likely were a bunch of dim-witted thugs. Buddhism is synonymous with kungfu only in the minds of some westerners. Interviews with both Su Dong Chen and Ma Xianda have been posted and discussed to these forums where the merits of hard contact drilling, including tournament fighting were espoused. Do we know better than them?

See http://www.evolutionary-systems.com/html_docs/iframe/m_su.html and http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=244 respectively for the above mentioned interviews.

Chang Style Novice

09-24-2002, 09:41 AM

Is there a CMA master more revered (and feared) than Ch'ang Tung Sheng? Didn't he make his reputation whoopin' ass all over the place, both in official tourneys and open challenges? Did he not encourage his students to compete both against each other and against practitioners of any other style they could find? I'll grant you that he was Muslim rather than Buddhist, but are we talking about MA or religion here?

Let me repeat: it's better to study history and use critical thinking than to derive all of your knowledge from mid 70's Shaw Brothers flicks.

Not that there's anything wrong with mid 70s Shaw Brothers flicks, as long as you see them for what they are.

NorthernMantis

09-24-2002, 10:03 AM

lol come on you guys give chokeyout some credit. Well at least he's trying to shed more light on the myth that kf guys being perceived as bad fighters.

lol it's hard for a mma to help out really cause everytime the person find a supossed "kung fu guy" he has to fight tooth and nail to prove that the person is authentic ( which usually isn't:D ).

Hey choke remmeber this when you find a kf person fighting:

1) Have the guys lineage cheked and double checked

2) Prepare to be flamed i.e. that's not real kf

3) Make sure the guy has a website filled with pretty stances

4) The guys style is well known cause the drunken river rat style aint gonna cut it

5) Make sure that you say what style it is cause kf people don't like their styles being generalised into one group. Heh a ba gua guy would rather get shot in the hand first before he'll agree that it's is the same as wing chun and vice versa. The truth is some styles are completely opposite of each other and have nothing in common.

Ray Pina

09-24-2002, 11:46 AM

"it's better to study history and use critical thinking than to derive all of your knowledge from mid 70's Shaw Brothers flicks"

--- True

"a ba gua guy would rather get shot in the hand first before he'll agree that it's is the same as wing chun"

---- Very True

;)

The Willow Sword

09-24-2002, 12:49 PM

You are absolutely correct but you are not going to convince anybody here that this is the way it should be and has always been. This country really capitolizes on the brutality of others,,they can justify it all they wantby saying,,",this is about fighting" and " your never gonna know if youdont....." etc etc.

if this kung fu black belt wants to go and violate the discipline he was taught to attempt to prove a point about kung fu fighting,,he is going to end up just like that other dumba$$ who was videoed getting mounted and pummled.

im glad at least a COUPLE of folks here are not into the brutaility of what we as martial artists practice,,,,we are not soldiers here and should not conduct ourselves as such.

MRTWS

CD Lee

09-24-2002, 12:56 PM

The few high level practioners of Kung Fu I know, that can apply principles of balance, control and real power with efficiency, are all too old to do sport fighting, or other things are far more important to them at their ages. However, I beleive that a 60 yr. old diligent and legitimately good Kung Fu practitioner would do very well or better against the same age sport fighters. They would do well against almost all normal people as well regardless of age.

This is reality. Ever watched some of the fastest and most skilled humans to ever put on a pair of boxing gloves fight young boxers after the age of 35-40? It is shocking to note the incredible denegration of skills and reflexes in these men. Luis, Ray Leonard, Mugabi, Homlmes, Ali, Camacho, etc. These guys were just dazzling during thier primes, but mere shells only a few years past their primes in chosen styles.

Kung Fu should allow a person to develop some really incredible skills that can be used past age 60 against a lot of people. The nature of some of the internal styles takes a lot of time, and has other benefits, not just fighting.

I think also, younger Kung Fu guys could use their principles to sport fight in UFC events, but absolutely would have to retrain some things for a while to do well. Some of that training may go against the longer term skills they are working on developing now. I am not trying to be a granola guy here, just throwing out some thoughts...

ewallace

09-24-2002, 01:07 PM

if this kung fu black belt wants to go and violate the discipline he was taught to attempt to prove a point about kung fu fighting,,he is going to end up just like that other dumba$$ who was videoed getting mounted and pummled
What if the only thing he was taught in his martial arts training was HOW TO FIGHT and not some path to enlightenment philosophical BS that IMO should be left to religious and classroom studies?

Water Dragon

09-24-2002, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by The Willow Sword

if this kung fu black belt wants to go and violate the discipline he was taught to attempt to prove a point about kung fu fighting,,he is going to end up just like that other dumba$$ who was videoed getting mounted and pummled.

Wasn't that the Willow Sword vs. Reemul fight?

That should get me a big ol Fu(k You in my e-mail
:D

neptunesfall

09-24-2002, 01:34 PM

delicate sound -

if this kung fu black belt wants to go and violate the discipline he was taught to attempt to prove a point about kung fu fighting,,he is going to end up just like that other dumba$$ who was videoed getting mounted and pummled.
so you're saying that kung fu is garbage? what are you trying to say here?

as for everything else you said...
kung fu IS fighting. every movement is for fighting. block, strike grapple, kick, poke, throw....it's all for fighting. it is and was a soldiers art. kung fu itself embodies no paths of righteous behavior, no moral template to live our lives. that is taoism and buddhism.

This country really capitolizes on the brutality of others,,they can justify it all they wantby saying,,",this is about fighting" and " your never gonna know if youdont....." etc etc.

i'm not sure which country you're referring to, but it really doesn't matter. the ever sage like and peaceful, all life respecting what-have-you chinese (the originators of kung fu) were and are just as violent as everyone else.
or you can take it back to it's supposed roots in india, who were/are still as violent and as oppourtunistic as everyone else. kung fu masters and students alike proved themselves with their fists. it's fact and has been documented, almost literally, all over the place.

ewallace

09-24-2002, 01:48 PM

Actually neptunesfall that was "The Willow Sword" who posted that.

neptunesfall

09-25-2002, 08:40 AM

sorry! hahaha

The Willow Sword

09-25-2002, 12:00 PM

if you are just going to learn how to fight and not take in the precepts behind the philosophies contained in certain martial arts styles then why not instead just go out to some fight club type place and fight? At a decent school you are going to get this path to enlightenment philisophical bs as you call it, as WELL as the skills to defend yourself. comeo n man be intelligent for once and not some illiterate numbskull. you actually have posted semi intelligent stuff in the past. :D

water dragon: lol no,,,,,our fight was alittle better even though it was sloppy on both our parts,,,oh and FUK You.:p

neptunesfall: Kung fu is not garbage,,,not entirly anyway;)

and i was referring to America as the country. more so than others.

i know none of you fukos give me any merit or take me seriously but that is not going to stop me from posting and saying an occasional Fuk You to the crack heads here as well as posting my thoughts.

simple truth men,,,,,soulja is correct.

SOULJA: where in london are you,,i will be visiting this holiday season. i will be checking out a bunch of kwoons there.
peace,,,,,,,,,

,and Fuk You to all the rest :p

MRTWS

Water Dragon

09-25-2002, 12:25 PM

Yeah, but...

I wanted a fu(k you, not a fuk you.

Now I'm offended :mad:

apoweyn

09-25-2002, 12:33 PM

Originally posted by The Willow Sword
if you are just going to learn how to fight and not take in the precepts behind the philosophies contained in certain martial arts styles then why not instead just go out to some fight club type place and fight?

1) what's a 'fight club-type place' and where are they?
2) because you want to learn technique rather than just brawl; but technique remains distinct from ideology, meaning that it's possible to learn proper technique from a teacher without learning buddhist/daoist/confucian philosophy

At a decent school you are going to get this path to enlightenment philisophical bs as you call it, as WELL as the skills to defend yourself. comeo n man be intelligent for once and not some illiterate numbskull. you actually have posted semi intelligent stuff in the past. :D

that being your personal definition of 'a decent school.' not everyone's.

"come on man, be intelligent for once." AND "you actually have posted semi intelligent stuff in the past." that's dirty pool, mate. ewallace expressed a difference in opinion. that doesn't make him illiterate. shame on you.

and make up your mind. either you're beseeching him to be intelligent for once or you're acknowledging that he's been intelligent before now. can't have it both ways.

this has always been people's problem with your posts, willow sword. you absolutely refuse to accept the possibility of different opinions. and that, my friend, is a shortcoming on a discussion forum.

i know none of you fukos give me any merit or take me seriously but that is not going to stop me from posting and saying an occasional Fuk You to the crack heads here as well as posting my thoughts.

boy, i'm getting all sympathetic now. know what makes me take people seriously? considered opinions provided in diplomatic ways. not clever variations on the word f*ck.

simple truth men,,,,,soulja is correct.

nope. opinion. learn the difference. it'll come in handy.

stuart b.

neptunesfall

09-25-2002, 01:30 PM

know none of you fukos give me any merit or take me seriously

untrue, willow. i've agreed with some of your posts and i personally believe everything has merit in some way shape or form. all i'm doing is disagreeing with you. fu(ko. :D

jmd161

09-25-2002, 02:36 PM

I for one do not knock any martial art.

With the right training and understanding of technique a women in a TaE Bo class could woop you're @ss.

If you guys who take MMA's and Bjj feel kung fu is weak then so be it.
You are intitled to your opinion.

Just don't fool yourself into thinking MMA's or Bjj is the can't miss fix all.Because it's not neither is kung fu for that matter.All i'm saying is come time to defend yourself against a kung fu practitioner with equal skill it's gonna come down to the person not the system.

I for one love kung fu and would not change for the world.I've beaten MMA's people and Bjj people ,but i've also beaten other kung fu people as well.Does that mean i will beat every MMA,Bjj,Kung fu or even Tae Bo practitioner i meet?

"NO"

I just train hard to give myself a fighting chance against who ever ends up in front of me.And that's all that matters to me.

jmd161:)

SevenStar

09-25-2002, 07:37 PM

actually, when I think about it, I don't think it's the person so much , but the teacher. There are plenty of capable people with the proper mentality that can't do jack schnit because they're teachers haven't trained them properly. Assuming proper training though, then yes, it's the person.

SevenStar

09-25-2002, 07:41 PM

Originally posted by Water Dragon

www.intensecombat.com

There are a lot of fights at the civic center in Hammond. That's the town where I live. Amateur MMA in Chicago :D

There's one in Evansville Indiana too - check out HooknShoot

jmd161

09-25-2002, 07:53 PM

Originally posted by SevenStar
actually, when I think about it, I don't think it's the person so much , but the teacher. There are plenty of capable people with the proper mentality that can't do jack schnit because they're teachers haven't trained them properly. Assuming proper training though, then yes, it's the person.

SevenStar ,

That's why i worded it the way i did.

All i'm saying is come time to defend yourself against a kung fu practitioner with equal skill it's gonna come down to the person not the system.

Meaning if both are advanced and have good teachers it's goona come down to the person with the most heart.

jmd161:)

Water Dragon

09-25-2002, 08:36 PM

Yeah, but Shonie Carter's fighting in Hammond :D

ewallace

09-26-2002, 05:51 AM

comeo n man be intelligent for once and not some illiterate numbskull
That was rather uncalled for.

The Willow Sword

09-26-2002, 07:16 AM

Calling the philosophies and as you put it "path to enlightenment"
Bull Sh!T (obviously making a reference to my ideologies) is rather "Uncalled for" so Fu(k you if you cant take back what YOU dish out.

MRTWS

ewallace

09-26-2002, 07:32 AM

Ever heard the song "Walking Contradiction" by Green Day TWS? Are you the one who came up with the ideals of a path to enlightenment? If not then don't take everything so ****ing personal. I express my opinion WITHOUT attacking you personally and you tell me to go **** myself? Well aren't you just self righteous. I should only strive to be such a perfect being.

apoweyn

09-26-2002, 07:43 AM

ewallace,

if you'd read anything about morihei ueshiba, you'd know that he called people 'f*cko' all the time.

...

that's not true. willow sword, you're on your own, pal.

stuart b.

The Willow Sword

09-26-2002, 07:47 AM

its not about being self riteous and superior,,,,you call the philosophies contained within these martial styles Bullsh!t. Should i quote you? talk about a walking contradiction ewallace:rolleyes: when you practice these arts for a decent amount of time and you try as best you can to follow the precepts,,they will ultimately become your own. call me what you will,,eliteist self riteous,,whatever.

to me a walking contradiction is someone who chooses a path and only talks about it and not walks it.
YOU apparently just want to FIGHT. and that only skims the surface of what these arts are about. if you choose to stay on that surface that is your perrogative. but as certain masters will tell you "if you just focus on the fighting you will not fully understand the essence of what the art is" and not because you are an illiterate numbskull ewallace,,,its because you are not willing to go beyond the fighting aspect. i have never stated that i am superior to you or anyone in any way. i have stated that i
am now operating at a different level with respect to these arts.
i have been doing it for over 16 yrs now,,,and i have just begun to dive down below the surface and get past all this brutalization and fighting.
i have had to fight for years and i am tired of it. i save it for the time when i will REALLY NEED IT. (which is what just about EVERY kwoon or DOJO you go to will TELL You,,either written in script on a wall or by the master him/herself.)
Why we as westerners do not listen to these philosophies and precepts is beyond me. i guess i just attribute it to "YOUNG THINKING" and "IGNORANCE"

MRTWS

red5angel

09-26-2002, 07:50 AM

Thats it!!!! Spankings all around!!! whoes first?

ewallace

09-26-2002, 08:15 AM

I shall quote myself:

What if the only thing he was taught in his martial arts training was HOW TO FIGHT and not some path to enlightenment philosophical BS that IMO should be left to religious and classroom studies?

Now I shall quote you:

you call the philosophies contained within these martial styles Bullsh!t

No. I called the path to enlightenment BS simply because if I want to get in touch with my spirit I will seek knowledge thru religion and book study. I do not train to become one with nature, hense the term "Martial Arts". I have a very high respect for CMA and it's principles and theories. I just have no desire to travel the earth ala David Carredine. Please focus on the keyword I.

Unlike you I do not look down on folks such as yourself that ARE interested in the spirtual aspect of things. If someone wants to get in the ring and actually test what they learn...that's great. If another person has no interest in fighting in the ring or tournaments then that's fine too. Different strokes bro.

And no I don't "just want to FIGHT". I have no ambition to fight pro or semi-pro. You assumed that. You know what happens when you assume. However I am considering at some point fighting in a local MMA event. Does that mean that I have a huge ego or some kind of bloodlust? No. I simply want to test out things that I have been told will work against another skilled opponent.

i guess i just attribute it to "YOUNG THINKING" and "IGNORANCE".
I guess I will just attribute that to elitest and narrow minded thinking since the art I am studying does not go deep into philosophy and is a pure combat art. I guess it is inferrior though since I will never obtain the status of a monk with my art.
:rolleyes:

The Willow Sword

09-26-2002, 10:00 AM

"Unlike you I do not look down on folks such as yourself that ARE interested in the spirtual aspect of things"

uhh i dont look down on people that are interested in the spiritual aspect of things,,,but to actually reply to what i think you are saying,,,,,,YOU HAVE BEEN LOOKING DOWN ON ME SINCE I STARTED POSTING MY VIEWS YOU DIMWIT.:mad:

"I called the path to enlightenment BS simply because if I want to get in touch with my spirit I will seek knowledge thru religion and book study"

Martial arts and the philosophies contained with in are NOT religious,,and neither is Buddhism.

"I just have no desire to travel the earth ala David Carredine."

well nether do i,,for david carradine is an actor and part of hollywood.:rolleyes:

"And no I don't "just want to FIGHT". I have no ambition to fight pro or semi-pro. You assumed that. You know what happens when you assume. However I am considering at some point fighting in a local MMA event. Does that mean that I have a huge ego or some kind of bloodlust? No. I simply want to test out things that I have been told will work against another skilled opponent.

Thats ego my friend,,wanting to pit yourself against another just to satisfy your own desire to "kick someone elses a$$" or to see if you could.

"I guess I will just attribute that to elitest and narrow minded thinking since the art I am studying does not go deep into philosophy and is a pure combat art. I guess it is inferrior though since I will never obtain the status of a monk with my art."

so you say. and the arts that i have studied in the past have been pure combat arts.. you ever read suntzu? our military uses it as a doctrine and it is part of the philosophical precepts contained with in combat. do you down our military for applying these PHILOSOPHIES,,do you think they are BS?

LIsten Man,,,the whole jist of this thread is that a "black belt kung fu guy" is going to be in a UFC event.
i have seen these UFC events where Kung fu guys go to it and they get thier ass creamed. and what do they accomplish by it? in my opinion absolutley nothing.
besides if you consider these UFC competitions to be "COMBAT" then i thnk youd better go back and re read history on what Combat truly is.
i am stateing an opinion based on YEARS and GENERATIONS of MAsters who have gone through the same sh!T and have seen the light and tried to speak a message to people about the futility of brutalization and frivolous fighting and war and noone seems to be listening to what they are saying,,AT ALL.
all they want to do is learn how to KICK A$$. and test each other and engage in these stupid exhibitions.
i KNOW that i am not the ONLY one here who feels the way i do,,,,,and i choose to voice it.
NONE of you are bad people,,even the nick lo's and regulators of the world,,,but jesus christ people..LOOK AROUND YOU.
dont you think its about time we evolve past some of this mickey mouse sh!t? these old masters did. why cant we follow in thier light?
MRTWS

apoweyn

09-26-2002, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by The Willow Sword
Martial arts and the philosophies contained with in are NOT religious,,and neither is Buddhism.

how do you define religion? buddhism is a religion according to my definition and that of a great many other people.

rituals, sacred texts, a hierarchy, temples, etc. in short, an organization designed to impart a spiritual understanding. now, you may practice buddhism in a limited way and call it philosophy. but for the millions of people who attend buddhist shrines, i think they'd agree that it's religion.

Thats ego my friend,,wanting to pit yourself against another just to satisfy your own desire to "kick someone elses a$$" or to see if you could.

much like debate over the internet. again, you're sort of stumbling off of 'the path.'

and the arts that i have studied in the past have been pure combat arts.. you ever read suntzu? our military uses it as a doctrine and it is part of the philosophical precepts contained with in combat. do you down our military for applying these PHILOSOPHIES,,do you think they are BS?

i thought you'd studied shaolin-do. and accused their sparring practices of being 'patty cake.'

lots of us have read sun tzu. and the book of five rings. and hagakure. now, i'd be interested in hearing passages directly quoted from these works accompanied by specific incidences of their use in real life. there's valid information in those books, but you're treating them like some mystical guide.

stuart b.

Merryprankster

09-26-2002, 10:36 AM

lots of us have read sun tzu. and the book of five rings. and hagakure. now, i'd be interested in hearing passages directly quoted from these works accompanied by specific incidences of their use in real life. there's valid information in those books, but you're treating them like some mystical guide.

That's interesting Ap. I'd like to see him have an original thought. I haven't yet. I'd also like to see him be capable of actual reasoning rather than inconsistencies--but what else do you expect from a "true believer?" Regurgitation of tired dogma and insistence on the one true path--and, oh yeah, only him and others who think the same way have that truth.

Too much? Nahhhh...

Of course, It's possible I'm talking out of my willow sword.

I know he is.

ewallace

09-26-2002, 10:46 AM

uhh i dont look down on people that are interested in the spiritual aspect of things
You must have misread what I posted.

Martial arts and the philosophies contained with in are NOT religious,,and neither is Buddhism.
Not every art shares the same philosophies.

dont you think its about time we evolve past some of this mickey mouse sh!t? these old masters did. why cant we follow in thier light?
How do you think these old masters became known for their fighting skills...by convincing themselves and others that their methods would probably work or by actually put them to the test?

YOU HAVE BEEN LOOKING DOWN ON ME SINCE I STARTED POSTING MY VIEWS YOU DIMWIT.
I posted that I believe one philosophy to be BS. I never said your beliefs are wrong.

And after your last post I do look down on you. Are you unable to express your point of view without name calling? Sounds to me like you only pull the "higher standard" card when it will benefit your views. And you say you've been doing this for 16 years? Man, the learning curve for those philosophies you speak so highly of must be killer. It takes years of study to be able to sterotype everyone who likes to compete into some bloodlusting egomaniac.

Thats ego my friend,,wanting to pit yourself against another just to satisfy your own desire to "kick someone elses a$$" or to see if you could.
Since you want to get personal, why do you feel so strongly against competition? Were you always picked last on the team when you were a kid? If you ever made the team did you only practice and refuse to play in games?

The Willow Sword

09-26-2002, 11:45 AM

:rolleyes: whatever guys.

the combined mentality of SOME of the members in this forum doesnt even equal that of a gnat. and thats okay,,really it is... it is entertaining,,to see you go through your life without a clue.
if your fists and your feet and your ego are all that you are then thats all you will ever be. oh yes i am insulting you,,but i really shouldnt insult gnats though. i apologize to the gnat community.

oh lets dissect these quotes now shall we?,,since that is what we feel to be the "smart":rolleyes: thing to do.

be violent,,,brutalize each other,,,clasp hands in a gesture of respect to one anothers abilities to beat the other into submission. big men arent you? great minds at work,,hahaha.

MRTWS

apoweyn

09-26-2002, 01:04 PM

i'm done. willow sword, you're not interested in debate. you want to hear someone say, "you're right."

so there you go. "you're right, willow sword."

:rolleyes:

ewallace

09-26-2002, 01:23 PM

the combined mentality of SOME of the members in this forum doesnt even equal that of a gnat. and thats okay,,really it is... it is entertaining,,to see you go through your life without a clue.
That is exactly the elitest snob crap that draws many folks away from CMA. Why is their mentality equal to that of a gnat...because they differ in opinion from you? You must have not faired very well in class debates either.

The Willow Sword

09-26-2002, 02:57 PM

"That is exactly the elitest snob crap that draws many folks away from CMA. Why is their mentality equal to that of a gnat...because they differ in opinion from you? You must have not faired very well in class debates either"

Actually that is what DRAWS people to CMA for they are looking for something more than just to be a bully and some blowhard who wants to fight fight fight.
there are principles here ewallace, principles that you dont seem to want to comprehend OR accept. you will take what you want and leave the rest instead of absorbing in ALL of what the art has to offer you. what a sad teacher you must have for him to sit there imparting this knowledge to you and all you want to do with it is go and fight in a mma tournament,,in a nice safe controlled environment for you(hey why not test yourself out on the street? go pick a fight) see what happens;) . Or maybe your teacher is like you are and just took what he wanted and left the rest and only imparts the brutal and the Martial to create other bullies such as yourself.

ewallace

09-26-2002, 03:28 PM

TWS you don't know what the **** you are talking about. For one, I have been in CMA. It was Northern Shaolin longfist (not SD crap). I loved it. I wish there was a school here like the one I went to illinois. You must know everything about me. Are you ****ing blind because I already know you are stupid. I said that I would consider fighting in A LOCAL MMA EVENT, and I have no desire to ever make a living or a habit of fighting. I just want to test out what I have learned at some point. Maybe if you tested out your skills you wouldn't have got your ass beat by reemul. That's probably why you are so against testing out your skills. Just because I want to test out my skills makes me a bully? Stop labeling people you don't know the first ****ing thing about just because they have different intrests and views.

you will take what you want and leave the rest instead of absorbing in ALL.
Bull****. Why is it so hard for you to comprehend that not every art has the same ideas as yours? Did your art teach you to make excuses for getting your ass kicked?

Here is another one:

in a nice safe controlled environment for you(hey why not test yourself out on the street? go pick a fight) see what happens
Kind of like when you insisted on headgear for your fight with reemul? Sorry pal, if I issue a challange...which I haven't done in years...I play for keeps. No *****-ass equipment like you.

As for a blowhard, look up your post history. There is no bigger blowhard on this forum than you my friend. In fact I think you beat out Stacey for the member that doesn't know what or who the **** he/she/it is. One minute you are foaming at the mouth about a higher standard and morals. The next minute you are foaming out insults and telling people to **** themselves. Why don't you go **** yourself. Maybe then you will find out just who you are.

The Willow Sword

09-26-2002, 04:03 PM

"TWS you don't know what the **** you are talking about. For one, I have been in CMA. It was Northern Shaolin longfist (not SD crap). I loved it. I wish there was a school here like the one I went to illinois. You must know everything about me. Are you ****ing blind because I already know you are stupid. I said that I would consider fighting in A LOCAL MMA EVENT, and I have no desire to ever make a living or a habit of fighting. I just want to test out what I have learned at some point. Maybe if you tested out your skills you wouldn't have got your ass beat by reemul. That's probably why you are so against testing out your skills. Just because I want to test out my skills makes me a bully? Stop labeling people you don't know the first ****ing thing about just because they have different intrests and views"

its good to get your anger out,,,helps doesnt it?

"Bull****. Why is it so hard for you to comprehend that not every art has the same ideas as yours? Did your art teach you to make excuses for getting your ass kicked?"

Nope.

"Kind of like when you insisted on headgear for your fight with reemul? Sorry pal, if I issue a challange...which I haven't done in years...I play for keeps. No *****-ass equipment like you."

you can see why i use the term "numbskull"

"As for a blowhard, look up your post history. There is no bigger blowhard on this forum than you my friend. In fact I think you beat out Stacey for the member that doesn't know what or who the **** he/she/it is. One minute you are foaming at the mouth about a higher standard and morals. The next minute you are foaming out insults and telling people to **** themselves. Why don't you go **** yourself. Maybe then you will find out just who you are."

now you can really see why i use the term "Young thinking" and "Ignorant"

joedoe

09-26-2002, 04:43 PM

This is great entertainment :D

jmd161

09-26-2002, 05:02 PM

I've been following this post all day it just keeps getting better and better.

I can't turn away from it kinda like a woman and soaps.:D

jmd161:)

Viper555

09-26-2002, 05:23 PM

For crying out loud why do you guys always have to ***** at each other about how much better a certain syle is over another one??!!!It's freaking ridiculous and get no one anywhere. Here's my take on it.It's not the style but the martial artist.

Merryprankster

09-26-2002, 05:46 PM

Rant on.

The problem I have with your posts, and therefore, presumably you, is the sheer hypocrisy.

You argue that sportive physical combat is ego based because the people who engage in it are spoiling for conflict.

Yet you engage in virtual battle here, spoiling for conflict.

There is no difference in motivation, only in outcome.

If there is no difference in motivation, then the thing you hate that drives sportfighters is the same thing that drives you to pound out your sad little tirades.

You're the angriest buddhist I've ever met.

Rant off.

joedoe

09-26-2002, 05:54 PM

OK, my POV is that to improve, you must be tested. Whether that is through competition, challenge matches, or simply by trying things out with training partners, there is testing involved.

The method that you choose to carry out your testing is up to you.

I work in software development. Testing is an integral part of what I do. I don't enjoy it but ultimately it makes my software better. The harder the test, the more robust the software.

That applies to MA as well :)

jmd161

09-26-2002, 06:01 PM

With all this flamethrowing going on i forget to ask when is this next UFC suppose to air?

What date,time,etc....?

jmd161:)

ewallace

09-26-2002, 06:44 PM

now you can really see why i use the term "Young thinking" and "Ignorant".
Yeah. You must have acted on my recommendation. Don't get all wet TWS. I read your post after I read an email that set me thru the roof. Wendy would know what it's related to. I apologize to all OTHER forum members for my outburst. Dang tu-rette syndrum acting up again.

The funny thing is that I am not a MMA. I do not attend BJJ classes (I do roll occasionally, and would like to more often). I, like joedoe (same career field), know that you MUST test your work, otherwise there is a good chance it will fail.

I'm done with this argument. It's like talking in sign language to Ray Charles.

ewallace

09-26-2002, 06:45 PM

That's the dumbest question I have ever seen on this forum.

Nah really, I have no idea bro.

SevenStar

09-26-2002, 06:54 PM

funny you should ask - it's tomorrow night

ewallace

09-26-2002, 07:00 PM

One more thing TWS. Where did you learn on your so-called path that it was okay to INSULT someone elses teacher that you no absolutely nothing about? That's a pretty low and dangerous card to play amigo. You might want to do a tad bit of research before making statements like that.

SDriver

09-26-2002, 08:10 PM

lol @ the idea that martial artists have an image as "thugs" that we should counteract... man, most people think of martial artists as doofy, hair farming, D&D playing kata weenies.

jmd161

09-26-2002, 09:38 PM

SevenStar,

Thanks for the info.

ewallace,

You have got to be one of the funniest people on this forum.

Hey you wanna see the best reason in the world for Birth Control?

Here's the link.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/avatar.php?userid=8565&dateline=1026313331

Whoa!!! sure would make me sterile.:D lol

jmd161:)

SevenStar

09-26-2002, 10:27 PM

Originally posted by ewallace
One more thing TWS. Where did you learn on your so-called path that it was okay to INSULT someone elses teacher that you no absolutely nothing about? That's a pretty low and dangerous card to play amigo. You might want to do a tad bit of research before making statements like that.

I didn't read the whole spat between you two so I dunno what all was said, but he's right...insulting a teacher - especially his - isn't smart. I know that his teacher could probably **** up about 93% of the people on this forum...

ewallace

09-26-2002, 10:37 PM

Which one? :)

SevenStar

09-26-2002, 10:53 PM

ebble.

apoweyn

09-27-2002, 09:08 AM

Originally posted by SDriver
lol @ the idea that martial artists have an image as "thugs" that we should counteract... man, most people think of martial artists as doofy, hair farming, D&D playing kata weenies.

hmm... i play D&D. don't practice kata. and have no idea what 'hair farming' means.

so... am i a thug?

:)

ShaolinTiger00

09-27-2002, 09:10 AM

<- has a mullet +5 vs. Dokken.

apoweyn

09-27-2002, 09:11 AM

LOL

i make a saving throw vs. tawny kitaen.

The Willow Sword

09-27-2002, 07:52 PM

Your Threat to me only just serves to prove my point about what i have been saying all along.

The fact of the matter is that you or your teacher will do nothing to me. i have issued no challenge and will not accept any challenge that you make to me. and if for some reason you take some lame brained notion to come up here and seek me out and try to muscle me, i will GUARANTEE you that you will not like the out come. i will treat it as aggravateed assault and criminal.
PLease understand that i will avoid the violence that you put forth here on this forum as much as i can,,but if you corner me,,,,,
lets just say that i have a right to defend myself and will do so,,and not in the manner with which you will be accustomed to.

reply to this with some "ooo im so scared reply" if you want,,but know this ewallace,,,we are just typing here,,and expressing views and opinions,,and whereas mine can be a bit harsh and sharp at times,,,,i make no advances to fight or to challenge through fighting. i am a much different person now since my challenge with reemul.
so i suggest that you rethink that threat to me and i will repost it so that you are aware of how much of a threat it is and it CAN be used against you. i have copied it as well. i have also taken the liberty of putting in quotation in your below post the threat posed to me.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ewallace
One more thing TWS. Where did you learn on your so-called path that it was okay to INSULT someone elses teacher that you no absolutely nothing about? "That's a pretty low and dangerous card to play amigo". You might want to do a tad bit of research before making statements like that.

SevenStar

09-27-2002, 11:14 PM

That's not really a threat. He's merely saying that it's not smart to badmouth a person you know nothing about. you can imply a threat there, but you can't prove that that was his intention.

ewallace

09-28-2002, 11:00 AM

You need help TWS. When did I ever threaten you? When did I issue a challange? Get off the drugs man.

The Willow Sword

09-28-2002, 01:11 PM

you can play dumb about it,, and that is fine. if thats what you need to do to reverse yourself and look good in your eyes.
im glad that you did.
now we can move on. you have read me, glad your decision is such that this can end as it should. Here.

MRTWS

ewallace

09-29-2002, 08:42 AM

and if for some reason you take some lame brained notion to come up here and seek me out and try to muscle me, i will GUARANTEE you that you will not like the out come
By your own definition you have threatened me. :rolleyes:
You are hardly worth my time. You have very thin skin TWS. I would also think that along your so called path you would have learned something about respecting others. Just like in the martial arts, you must learn the basics first. Your path to enlightenment will be stalled until you learn the basics.

That's all I have to say on this matter. I see no reason to continue a debate with someone who does not posess the ability to comprehend past a third grade level.

chingei

09-29-2002, 09:18 AM

Originally posted by The Willow Sword
:

the combined mentality of SOME of the members in this forum doesnt even equal that of a gnat.

such low self-esteem!

Ryu

09-29-2002, 01:41 PM

Hmm.
This was somewhat comical at first, but I think it's gone a bit too far. People really seemed POed at each other.

I have always said that motivation plays a huge part in why any action we do is right or wrong. And sometimes, even if the motivation starts out pure, the actions we do end up harmful, hateful, decietful, etc.

Competition and brutality are not just physical things. The worst kind of brutality is what we can do to each other emotionally and mentally. We compete with ourselves, inside our own heads, on a constant basis whether we know it (or accept it or not). We "brutalize" love, understanding, commitment, tolerance, and our own confidences all the time. Even the best of us.

TWS, I'm sure you know that I am a very spiritual person, and place a lot of emphasis in both my training and in my personal life on ethics, codes of honor, justice, protecting people in danger, enlightenment, honor, and love. I think a lot of people on this forum know that and understand that. The people in my real life see me the exact same way.

I compete with myself always. Anything I think about or learn in martial art I test. I believe that to truly compete with yourself requires you to destroy your ego...
My ego is not destroyed. :) But I work on it constantly. I would test myself by joining schools (whether BJJ or judo or whatnot) and staying there for a few years until I was able to roll, hang, and tap lots of the students. It wasn't for the art itself. I have to honest about that right now. It was for me. I wanted to know if I could get good enough to be at their level. That took time, and took lots of training at the schools for the most part. But when I reached where I had wanted myself to be...I grew almost "bored" and would leave. I would practice on my own until I raised enough money to join another school that interested me for the same reason. Then I'd do the same thing.
A lot of this was indeed ego. But all the years I spent doing this taught me valuable lessons about myself, and martial arts in general. It wasn't until I found close friends that shared my love of martial art too that I was able to really experience the "killing of ego" that you talk about. I roll now 3-4 times a week, sometimes up to 2 hours at one time. I do this with a close friend who also shares my love for it. When we train, we train very hard, and very competitive. The "competition" between us is not in seeing who can beat who, or who can kick who's ass. The competition between us is for the sake of the art and the sake of the training. It becomes almost an enlightenment in itself. Even if we "test" our stuff through full contact sparring or 100% full resistence grappling, we develop a close bond of comradery, friendship, and humility and respect for the art, and the better fighters out in the world. (There's many)

The reason I say this is because I have a strong love for the spiritual aspect of martial arts. My "motivation" always..... even when trying to test myself and challenge myself, etc... was to do so in order to become strong enough to help another. Someone who needed help, or was in danger. As corny as it sounds, it's the truth.
I study buddhism and taoism, and philosophy from all over Asia and the West. I know many Buddhist monks who have come here from Asia. I have exchanged words, philosophies, meditation times with famous monks from Thailand, Vietnam, and China.
I attend Buddhist meetings occasionally, spend time by myself in monastaries (which is sometimes unconfortable being the only white person in them at times :cool: )
I have spoken and spent time with many Christian priests, attended Orthodox services, catholic churches, etc.

I have very strong opinions on what is right and wrong. The reason being probably because I've spent so much time doing this...

The reason I'm writing all this? Being angry at "bad" things is a very correct behavior. However..... make sure you know for sure what is bad. And make sure that your anger doesn't burn so hard that it envelops you too.

A lot of the people on this forum compete. Whether in tournaments or sparring, etc. There are certain times that competing with others (like martial arts itself) is a way of destroying your own ego. Make sure you know the motivation behind actions.

When I was young, I thought that I could do much more than I actually could. I lived in a fantasy world too much. It wasn't until I tested my "theories" that I found out for real what I could and couldn't do. Now, I know that it's okay to lose. I know it's okay when someone is better then you. I know that there will always be someone who can take you. Always. :) To me...... that humble understanding is what truly gives you the ability to "die a samurai's death" so to speak. You don't have to be afraid when you accept "death." You can give it your all....

In that sense, competition can become an enlightenment. If it's treated as such....... however I agree completely that the arrogant, "kick ass", "I'm a macho tough guy" stuff is not only ugly...... but also a "fantasy" world.

See things for how they are. That is the ability to really understand when "right" and "wrong" come into the situation.

Anyway, too long of a post. Shoot me a PM if you would like to talk further.

Ryu