Could someone Explain Reverse breathing

[dre_doggX]

Some explain please... I think I have an idea but I need to be sure

[apham4]

I've just heard that it's something along the lines of when you breath in, the abdomen goes in instead of expanding out and vice versa. I also heard that it could be dangerous to practice this kind of breathing without proper training/supervision. I don't really know too much about this aspect, but I'll be definitely following the thread.

A.

[Brad]

I've just heard that it's something along the lines of when you breath in, the abdomen goes in instead of expanding out and vice versa.
Isn't that chest breathing, which is what most people do until they're told not to?

[crumble]

The other part of it is when the stomach goes in, the back expands and sort of rounds. So your chest doesn't puff out, your back does.

To do this you need to curve your spine like a "C", i.e. your shoulder and hips move toward each other and you back bows outward.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

One of the reasons for reverse breathing comes from the concept of pre-Heaven and post-heaven energies within a person. Basically the difference between the innate and acquired constitution. Innate energies provide the impetus for living and acquired energies sustain the innate ones through time. A key concept of the physical geography of pre/post Heaven are the regions of Dantain and Mingmen.

I will presume at this point that you can find the ideas of their respective locations on your own, or that they are already familiar.

On inhalation Dantian is attracted towards Mingmen, this is the heart of reverse breathing. The drawing of the centre of the lower abdomen towards the adrenal region means that this area is unavailable to affect the diaphragm. This means that, while the back must open at the level of the base of the pleural cavity (which is defined by the diaphragm/ 11th thoracic rib), the whole middle of the trunk must also open to enable the breath to be deep enough for functional respiration.

My personal experience is that this does not require an opening of the back so extreme as to form a "C" shape (I mean no critique Crumble). Its more a feeling like the kidneys are flaring to the sides, while at the same time the base of the ribcage and the epigastrium are expanding. I would also caution against doing this with strong muscular contractions. Let the focus be on the relationship between Dantian and Mingmen, with minimal force being exerted.

A practice of this type should be approached with a humble awareness. Its easy to thrust energy around the body, lots of Qigong charlatans make a living leading people through this kind of experience. However, I would advocate a kind of radical honesty with yourself about your experiences. Stay at a simple physical level for some time, and just use the mind as an observer, rather than as a task-master. Let the breathing slowly become more natural then incorporate it into forms training and moving Qigong.

[Repulsive Monkey]

the main concept is to attract the course of Qi guided by the breath to traverse upwards along the Du channel on the in-breath and then over to Du 28 on the frenelum on the inside of the upper gum and then on the out breath the qi courses down over the chest descending along the Ren Channel down to Hui Yin or Ren 1, again with the expansion of the abdomen. Og course at first it may seem like a muscular feat but this should be done in a relaxed manner more with mind intent then anything else to accompany the breath. Eventually no reall physical movement will be noticed by an observer, and I do also disagree with the making the back a "C" shape. This is an action which istaking the method too far in the wrong direction in my books!.

[Walter Joyce]

Kevin,

Great explanation. Can you expand a bit, i.e., is reverse breathing a necessary component of internal power cultivation and delivery?

Others have said that one will only have minimal power during fa jin unless reverse breathing is used both in training (say during silk reeeling) and execution. The reationale is an increase in the internal pressure being stored for release during fa jin.

Any thoughts?

Walter

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Walter Joyce

Any thoughts?



Yeah. Go push a car. What happens to your stomach?

[Walter Joyce]

WD...try not to think so long and hard about things, the strain is starting to show in your posts.

:cool:

[Water Dragon]

Not familiar with the term bust a gut, eh?

Not to be confused with bust a nut, which might also be internal

[Fu-Pow]

LOL, WD!!

Question for Kevin:

In your description you refer to the dan tien moving toward the ming men. Are you talking about the actual Dan Tien or the Qi Hai acupuncture point?

Also, I do "external" as well as "internal" kung fu. Can I use this type of breathing with my "external style."

Yau Sam

[Ky-Fi]

Normal Breathing: dan tien expands on inhale, draws in on exhale.

Reverse Breathing: dan tien draws in on inhale, expands on exhale.

I was taught that if you want to do martial taiji, then you have to adopt reverse breathing, and it has to be coordinated with various postures of the Taiji form--this was stressed very early on in the training. Of course there are no iron-clad rules in combat, but in general (while using reverse breathing), you want to be inhaling for defensive applications, and exhaling for offensive applications----not necessarily a full exhale, but you will sharply expell some breath while your dan tien is pushing out. The breaths are slower and longer if you're doing the Taiji form slowly, and shorter and sharper if you're doing the form with fa jin, but the pattern is the same.

As it was explained to me in qigong terms, when you adopt reverse breathing, the qi is more forcefully circulated than it is during normal breathing. In my opinion, though, "reverse breathing" is another one of those concepts that, in modern internal arts, gets over-analyzed and elevated to the idea of a "higher level" practice more so than it really deserves. I will agree that if you're attempting some advanced qigong practice that UTILIZES reverse breathing, then yes, you should seek the guidance of a qualified qigong teacher. But as far as "reverse breathing" itself---we all do this about a hundred times a day; it's the type of thing where you just have to be sensitive as to how your body works. Our body automatically uses reverse breathing whenever we want to emit energy: when we laugh, cry, yell, sing, f@rt, sigh, lift something heavy. Every martial style and pretty much every sport makes HUGE use of reverse breathing---it's not dangerous or 'high level" at all, IMO. If you're not exhaling sharply and pushing out on your dan tien (and slightly with your anus) when you strike, then I don't believe you're going to have very powerful techniqes.

In short, my teacher also used Water Dragon's "pushing a car" example, and I think it's a very good example (except with pushing a car, the reverse breathing supports the tensed muscles over a longer period of time, making that a "hard" jin as opposed to the "soft" jins utilized more often in Taiji---but the reverse breathing serves pretty much the same purpose in both jins). Anyways, that's my understanding.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Walter,

I don't know that reverse breathing is a "necessary" part of Neigong, but is a part of all of the higher level practices that I have personal experience with. I know that my own practice improved dramatically after I began to understand this method.

In a similar vein, I don't know that there is a absolute connection between training Xiaozhoutian/small microcosmic orbit (the running of Renmai and Dumai channels on the midline of the trunk and head) and reverse breathing. Reverse breathing is usually a part of Xiaozhoutian, but Xiaozhoutian is not always part of reverse breathing. I have found that its so easy to drive the orbit with mind rather than observe it, that I usually recommend to my students that they just stick to the more mechanical aspects of the breathing for a long time. There are several medical contra-indications for active use of the mind on Renmai and Dumai. People can scr*w themselves up with this stuff.

As for this being necessary for Fajin, I am also not so certain. The Taijiquan training that I do utilizes this method (Chen and Yang styles), particularly the Chen. However, the Xinyi Liuhequan and Yin Fu Baguazhang do not adhere so strictly to the idea. Xinyi utilizes "the sound of thunder," a high YEE! sound with the whole Dantian compressing on the expression of the Jin. This is quite in contrast to the "crotch dropping to the earth" of Chen style. Baguazhang on the other hand can pierce on the inhale of a reverse breath, theoretically to draw Qi from the acupoint that is being attacked. Usually as a set-up, draining the Jinglou/meridian to create a structural vunerability that will be exploited as the contact progresses.

Fu-Pow,

I am talking about the "true" or deep body location of Dantain, not the surface acupoint. While we can have no direct muscular contraction from this area, the idea is for this to the centre of the initiation of the movement. The body is organized around the Dantian/Mingmen relationship, even if the actual movment involves grosser aspects of our anatomy.

This is no small topic.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Ky-Fi


In short, my teacher also used Water Dragon's "pushing a car" example, and I think it's a very good example...

Dear Walter Joyce,

NYAH-NYAH-NYAH

:p :D :p

[LapisCircle]

Reverse breathing.... Maybe there should be a manual put out called "Hi, I'm a chinese internal artist, I want to make things needlessly complex", I think that book would sell well.... many of you already seem to have read it.

When you breath your abdomen fills with air and expands because of the air filling the lowest part of the lungs, the abdomen contracts when the air is expelled. When you can comfortably and on a regular this is the way I breath and not even think about it fill the entire lower abdomen so there is slight and comfortable pressure on you kidenys and be in a constant even while walking down the street and sitting on the tolit relaxed and content.. then maybe you should realize things are good so why breath in reverse?

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Perhaps not all complexity is entirely needless. Slavish devotion to obscure aspects of Chinese physical culture is a danger in this field, yet breath control has been widely regarded with some esteem in diverse cultures for more centuries than it is useful to conceptualize. I'm uncomfortable dismissing this practice so casually.

The contentment felt on the toilet may feel somewhat remote when pressed by pathological agression.

By the way, Water Dragon is my hero.

[Walter Joyce]

Thanks to those who actually thought and explained their positions as to reverse breathing. Much of it was helpful. I find that discussing what is accepted as "basic" generally leads to a better understanding of the fundamentals, from which all skill flow. If all the "basic" components of neijia arts were were so easily drawn from daily life and integrated in the way that leads to true skill and internal power, then we would all be internal masters. However, that is not the case, is it.

To those who merely parroted a simple phrase that they heard, without bothering to explain the meaning, most likely because they don't understand the meaning themselves, well, come back when you have something real to offer derived from practice and reflection.

Dismissing an idea as over-rated becuase you don't understand it is too common a response. I'm not about to argue for the reality and complexity of neijia skills, if you don't get it, thats fine by me, perhaps you're not meant to.

Responding in a juvenile fashion is not what I call heroic behavior, sorry Kev.

I want to add that half the **** that gets slung here probably wouldn't come out quite so rudely or in such a childish manner in a face to face encounter. And it usually is associated with people who choose "kewl" nicks instead of their names. The best response here as in life is to ignore it unless you are forced to deal with it, then deal with it swiftly.

Finally, if it matters, I addressed my comments to Kevin, and asked for thoughts, not half-baked childish assertions. Lack of respect for others is usually traced back to lack or respect for yourself. Neither is very productive.

Good training,
Walter

[crumble]

"is reverse breathing a necessary component of internal power cultivation and delivery?"

It seems to make sense that combining reverse breathing and the bowing of the back would be essential for delivering power. The reverse breathing is a natural response to exerting force (as WD and Ki-fi have said). The bowing of the back is adding another series of joints to increase power. These things are separate but make sense to combine.

-c

p.s. Walter, I think you are taking those comments a little too seriously. I don't think they are mean spirited at all.

[Water Dragon]

Hey Walter, it's the internet. Go find something important to get offended by.

[Water Dragon]

:p

[crumble]

Could you say more about grand circulation? I'm about a year into chi kung and I'm interested in what lies ahead. It is interesting to hear all the different versions/directions of chi kung that are out there.

-crumble

[Walter Joyce]

Hey WD, its neijia, to me that is important. :cool:

KyFi,
just curious, I would have asked privately but its not an option. where are you in Massachusetts and who do you train with? If I've asked before, sorry, senior moment.

[Water Dragon]

Yeah, but, you seem to be offended at me for having a little fun here.

If you want to talk reverse breathing, it may be rocket science, but doing it ain't.

You know what a C back is, you know what the feeling is (same as pushing a car)

Just park your @ss in front of a heavy bag, make a C back, and try to make that feeling in your belly as you breathe out. Breathe out when you hit. Hit the dang bag as hard as you can. Now do that again, and again, and again,and again, and... well you get the idea.

Yeah, there's breathing exercises to help, but I don't think they're necesary. You can also talk to a boxer about this. They do it as well. (not sure about the C back) As far as danger, just don't hold your breath in when you do it. If you get light headed, that ain't good.

Does that explain my position enough to you, or is it not mystic enough?

[Walter Joyce]

It explains it a lot better than your first post. And for the record, I'm not into mystic, pragmatic is more like it.

I asked because I find that reverse breathing is creeping into my silk reeling exercises naturally, and I have been told by someone with skill that if you want serious internal power, its required.

I also agree that fa jin (the type of power in question) is not THE only type of internal power, as pointed out by others.

C spine, got it, do it understand it.

I was a bit cranky, admitted, but the only mystical secret I know of in martial arts is old fashioned work on the fundamentals, breathing right is one of them.

:p

[Water Dragon]

Well then, in closing I'd just like to say

NYAH-NYAH-NYAH

:D

[Walter Joyce]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
Well then, in closing I'd just like to say

NYAH-NYAH-NYAH

:D

Do you have to shout?
Oh yeah, new toy and all. :D

[Water Dragon]

Yeah, if I ever figure out how to do colors you're all screwed :D

[Water Dragon]

Guess What?

[Water Dragon]

OH $HIT!!!!

[dre_doggX]

In Reverse breathing, does the chi expand to the abdomen, and if so where and if it is gathered in the chest. or is it gathered in the abdomen and released in the abdomen.

[Water Dragon]

CHI??

[Ky-Fi]

A disclaimer for my first post: I didn't mean to dismiss more advanced use of reverse breathing for higher level qigong purposes, or to discount the subtleties and varied practices and theories of various styles. I certainly don't claim a high level of knowledge, and I'm not denigrating the people who study these things more deeply than I have. But, I just felt that the original post was someone looking for basic information about reverse breathing, and IMO, the basic concept can be communicated in extremely pragmatic terms with clear, real-world physical examples---I feel you kind of have to have a grasp of that before you can go more deeply into the theory.

Walter, I live up in Beverly, and I started my CMA in 1998 with Dr. Yang at YMAA---a little bit at the Boston school, and more at the North Andover school. I've done mostly the barehand form and quite a bit of saber, and some Taiji chin na--not as much push hands as I should have. For the past year though, I've been focusing more of my time on sport fencing (I like swords :)), as I've become totally hooked on it and plan to start competing soon.

But let me stress, I make no claims about being a long-time student of Dr. Yang's, and unless I quote him I certainly don't claim to be speaking for him or the school--my yapping is my own. I hate when people elevate their teacher to ridiculous status, and I hope I don't come across as doing that. But one thing that Dr. Yang always says that impresses me is " Whenever I tell you something, put a question mark after it in your head. If you believe it just because I tell you, then that's brainwashing. If you're critical, question it, ponder deeply, and experiment yourself, then you will COMPREHEND." And that's why I'm such a big fan of his is that when I do really think about what he says, I almost always agree. I played a lot of sports growing up, and I just find most of his physical explanations of things to completely jibe with my experiences. If you really examine what happens when you push a car--you don't just immediately tense your muscles and start pushing. First you relax your body, inhale while drawing your dan tien in, sinking your chest in and slightly curving your back, then focus your mind on pushing the car (mind leading the qi), slowly exhale while compressing and pushing out your dan tien, slightly straightening out your back and pushing out your chest (tounge touching roof of mouth :)), letting the qi flow through your still relaxed but gradually tensing arm and leg muscles---all from a powerfully rooted stance. I think that explains a great deal of the factors of a (slowed down)hard jin. You can do a very similar analysis of a baseball pitcher throwing a ball as an example of a soft jin (and I believe I've heard the "brush knee, step forward" movement from the Yang form referred to as "throwing the baseball". ) And I guess that reflects my belief that the internal arts are NOT necessarily supreme styles of combat. I love Taiji, and certainly the emphasis on yielding, sticking and using soft jins make it unique, but IMO it has more similarities to "external" styles than differences. I like Taiji because it makes you think deeply about everything you're doing---but I think a LOT of other arts use VERY similar methods, even if they don't describe them in as much detail---because that's how the human body naturally works.

Anyways, I didn't mean to disparage anyone else's posts, and I aplogize if I did.

[Walter Joyce]

KY-FI,

I'll start by saying I'm not being contrary, just honest about my own experience.

I've reflected on the push the car analogy and others mentioned, and I've relected on how I do reverse breathing in my training, and I don't see the connection. What I mean is, I don't use reverse breathing for strength like you describe in everyday situations, and the reverse breathing I do when training is definitely connected to a soft jin. I do tense my abdominal region when exerting myself in everyday life, but it is not the same as the relaxed expansion used in the exhalation phase of reverse breathing when training, FWIW.

Second, how to put this diplomatically. I may very well be wrong in what I am about to say, but it is my honest opinion. I think your understanding of taiji has been influenced by Dr. Yang's understanding of it. Dr. Yang has excellent chin na skills, white crane skills, and he has turned out some great wushu players. He is not someone I would turn to for training in taiji.

Occassionally when I start down this line of discussion someone seems to intrepret it that my head is in the clouds and I have some mystical or legendary understanding of IMA skills. I don't. Everything I write about is based on personal physical experience.

IMA when practiced diligently, for a long enough period of time, and correctly, BY the right person (not everyone can get it, and I'm not saying I am one of those that can) leads to skills that are remarkable, and go beyond your description of the basic skills, " yielding, sticking and using soft jins."

Does this make taiji and other internals necessarily the supreme fighting arts? No, but it does mean that offer the potential for skills that are unique in martial arts.

On my part there is no intent to insult anyone or question their abilities or those of their teachers. We all excell in different aspects, I'm sure.

My main purpose in coming to these boards is to see what others who train in a similar fashion get from their training, other perspectives so to speak, and to get a better understanding of my own training by trying to see from these other perspectives and then expressing my limited undertstanding of the principles involved in my posts.

My understanding is, as they say, a work in progress, and with any luck it will remain that way.

Walter

[Ky-Fi]

Walter,

If your phsyical experiences don't match my descriptions, then they don't---not much I can argue with there :).

Regarding Dr.Yang, you're certainly entitled to your opinions, but when you don't really support your conclusions with any examples or reasoning, I personally can't give them much weight. Why would he be excellent at chin na and White Crane? Why would he be less than exemplary at Taiji? Has he studied one style much longer than another? Who did he train with? Do you have first-hand experience with him? How long has he spent teaching each style? What do other teachers or people that have trained with him think of him? What great wushu players has he produced? What concepts and practices does he teach and practice that would make one of his styles good and another bad? I'm not really asking for specific answers to these questions, but my point is that these are some of the criteria I would use to support my opinions of a martial arts teacher. I'm sure if you look deeply, you can come up with some valid criticisms of Dr. Yang, because, as you said, everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. Again, I don't mean any offense to you, but IMO constructive, detailed criticism of well known teachers' practices and theories is beneficial to CMA---vague denigrations are not.


"My main purpose in coming to these boards is to see what others who train in a similar fashion get from their training, other perspectives so to speak, and to get a better understanding of my own training by trying to see from these other perspectives and then expressing my limited undertstanding of the principles involved in my posts.

My understanding is, as they say, a work in progress, and with any luck it will remain that way."

I'm in complete agreement with you on that---that's what I strive for as well.

[StaggerLee]

Ky-Fi,


I was taping and analyzing some baseball pitchers last night (just highlights). As I reviewed the tape I could not only tell how hard they were pushing, I could also see how tightly they gripped the ball, even how snug their shoes fit.I was also able to discern what direction their breath was travelling.Not bad eh?

[Ky-Fi]

Exactly. And if you watch very closely, you'll clearly see that Pedro Martinez is using the microcosmic circulation for his split-finger fastball, but NOT for the slider (unless there's men on base). He's very subtle, and that's why he's going to win the Cy Young again.

[StaggerLee]

Perhaps he will--if Lowe will give it to him.

Of course Glavine gets my nod for the other league.When he loses 5mph on his fastball he does what any good internalist would do---he loses 5 more.

Mass huh?I'll make a point never to mention the "Sultan of Swat"or Bill Buckner.

[Ky-Fi]

Ahhh, Bill Buckner. You know the poor guy ended up having to move out of New England because of the constant harassment? Plus, he had over 100 RBI in '86, so they wouldn't have even made it there without him. Life is unfair! :)

[Walter Joyce]

KY-FI,
You're right about my vagueness, I was torn between diplomacy and honesty.

Yes, I have seen and worked with Dr. Yang. I have also attended demonstrations at his school. The students I saw at these demonstartions in the late 80s early 90s were the basis of my wushu players comment.

Yes, Dr. Yang has studied both white crane and chi na loner than taiji, at least based on his bio supplied when I went to his school.

As for his taiji, I will only say that I was expressing my opinion based on a variety of factors which shall remain vague.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

At the risk of getting trashed by those more knowledgable than myself.... Reverse breathing has a place in certain meditative disciplines, raising primal (prenatal) energies upward from the lower burner.. BUT, it is not a "natural" pattern of breathing, it is contrived for a specific purpose. True to my Taoist beliefs (as i understand them), the goal is to move and breathe "naturally". I find that when hands cross there is little time or reason to be focused on "reverse breathing".. my teacher says whenever we are winded, like from running or working-out, and we examine our breathing pattern it is abdominal, expanding during the inhale, contracting during the exhale and, a natural response to the situation. This same "natural" breathing pattern is observable in infants and during our sleeping state, at times whenever we are not influenced by contrived patterns of society or the obsessive search for the mystical.

Reverse breathing is useful in the meditative disciplines that support the internal Arts, it is useful for cultivating refined energies that can later be drawn upon for enhanced performance. I sense that "simple is better", that too many contrived rituals over-complicate the obviously simple, disguising the rewards as the ritual instead of the experience. Besides, try rotating the Dan Tien while reverse breathing, it just doesn't feel right by my own experience.

Just another perspective from the Far-side.. Be well..

[Kevin Wallbridge]

The pattern of abdominal contraction on inhalation is a natural one, and its usage makes sense if you consider the Daoist model of the human as composed of Pre- and Post-Heaven influences.

Everyone reading this has done reverse breathing. They did it not in relation to breath, rather in relation to respiration before the lungs fully formed. Watch an ultra-sound of a fetus and you will observe a rolling-in of the abdomen which matches the blood flow entering its body through the umbilicus. This is the breathing you were doing as your central nervous system was forming. Perhaps it has some significance.

Just because the lung function has taken over the task of respiration doesn't mean it is the only natural relationship we can have to this process. I still maintian that the basis of reverse breathing is the relationship between Yuanqi and Zhengqi, the primordial and acquired energies of life. To stimulate the primordial energies we take our tissue back to a place before we received our breath directly from the outside world.

In our desire for pragmatism and practicality I believe it important to realize that many things we see as contrived at first are actually based on a very practical view of the world. The question for each of us is, "do we have enough knowledge of the context of these training methods to dismiss them out of hand?"

Its easy to throw out a simple example like pushing a car or running, but these may oversimplify something that is based on long observation, not slavish devotion to some idealized past. Its true that most people (the Chinese in China included), rely on little real information and a lot of hearsay when it comes to Neigong practices. The Chinese tradition of secret teaching hasn't done them any favours in this realm. Yet the information is out there if you take the time to really investigate.

How many people involved in Chinese martial arts really take the time to understand the classical Chinese concept of a person. Its easier to come into the training with a Cartesian dualistic ghost-in-the-machine model from Bio-medicine, and a sceptical eye that easily dismisses concepts that are based on another pardigm entirely.

I'm not advocating simply swallowing whole the largely mystical bull**** that has come to present itself as Neigong. Be sceptical without being dismissive. Learn to read Chinese if you are really serious about this stuff, it opens a whole realm of possibility and teaches you very important things about how the founders and diseminators of these styles formed their thoughts. Then read the classics on your own. Most translations are so literal as to be useless. Study the medicine if you want to go deeply internal, then you can go beyond a connect-the-dots idea of points and meridians and see that there are amazing insights into the human exerience to be found within these arts that go well past busting heads and "keeping-it-real."

[RAF]

Right on target.

"How many people involved in Chinese martial arts really take the time to understand the classical Chinese concept of a person. Its easier to come into the training with a Cartesian dualistic ghost-in-the-machine model from Bio-medicine, and a sceptical eye that easily dismisses concepts that are based on another pardigm entirely."

Don't forget about sources on both culture and history that come from outside the martial arts community.

On a different note, I see that Ted Mancuso is offering Kang Ge Wu tape on Bagua basics.

Professor Kang Ge Wu is both a historian and martial arts practitioner and is probably the foremost authority on the history of bagua.

Another chance!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I agree completely with your assertion that too few people do the real research, yet.. when the real research is done, and one finds that all the signs point to uncontrived utter simplicity.. that path seems valid for the perceiver.. It is not a right/wrong path, simply the path that works based on one's own experiences.. which, by my own accounting, is a valid interpretation of Tao.

To aspire to move one's abdomen as though they were still in the womb ("before the lungs fully formed") seems to challenge the notion that we leave the womb and grow for a pupose greater than to emulate a partially formed body. Again, i assert the usefullness of reverse breathing for meditative and chi development reasons, but.. i have tried to find the Martial application of such techniques, but to date i can't get the "flow" of it... Pushing a car?.. indeed, the muscles of the stomach and abdomen are supporting the frame as it encounters inantimate forces too great for the frame to bear unsupported. I would also assert that at its more developed stages, chi used to push a car will effortlessly express itself through well trained channels and relaxed application.

Lastly, this response is not, at all, intended to be inflamatory.. i hope only to share insights.. and learn from those of others.. I am gratified at the level of competency and content in this post..

Be well..

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Its cool Bob. :)

I think one thing that gets lost very easily is the importance many Daoist practices have placed on alignment of innate and acquired energies. The idea of "womb breathing" isn't about the lungs, its about reminding the acquired costitution where it comes from.

Anyone familiar with the idea of the Ling? Its often translated as spirit or spiritual, but it goes a bit beyond that. Why does life exist at all? That deep stiving that all life displays in the struggle for survival points at something underlying what life is. In Daoist metaphysics this is the Ling. I prefer "the force of life" as a translation, or "the wind of life that blows through the universe." This is the basis of the primordial energies in the body. Try to dies by holding your breath. Conscious control can strive for this (an example of pathological behaviour in the acquired constitution), but as soon as you lose consciousness some other force takes over and you breath again.

An implication of this force-of-life is that it has speed and direction in each of us. True naturalness requires that we become aware of our own unique vector of living potential so that the acquired energies can move in the right direction and at the appropriate speed. This is why reverse breathing is so basic to many practices of internal alchemy.

There is quite a bit more to the Ling (innate aspirations, Hun and Po, Yuan Qi, etc.), but its enough to say that it is a key element of the observations that Daoist practices are based on, as well as being fundamental to their metaphysics of existence.

My thanks to those who bother to chew through my posts.

[Walter Joyce]

Kevin,

Thanks for taking the time to post. It is refreshing to read thoughtful input from someone who has taken the time to do the research.

It is obvious from that research you have learned to view what some see as "simple" questions from the perspective gained by setting aside the western world view and adopted the worldview that gave birth to the practices we supposedly subscribe to.

There is nothing "magical" about neijia training, but is also not the product of the average existence. It is simply physical in many ways, but a physicality that is much deeper and richer from the mundane approach to the physical.

The only magic there is the magic of our existence on this plane.

Okay, I'm done for those who find this stuff impractical.

Walter

p.s. if you really want it, think outside the box.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

A great quote i find applicable at times like these...

"it is as easy as doing it.. as difficult as 'trying' to do it"..

Too often we confuse the ritual for the goal..

Be well..

[Walter Joyce]

And too often we think we have it down when we don't.

Right now, I'm at the ritual as goal stage, I believe my path lies through physical understanding.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

I get the opportunity to work with lots of people who come to Chinese physical culture with a sort of "floating vagueness" about energetics and medicine. In recent dialogue with friends and students I have refered to them as the I-am-a-cloud-guys. To these people I say exactly what TaiChiBob is saying, often in the same words. So I cannot argue with that view. Its useful and practical and is a direct way to get at what Neigong advocates.

Whjat I have been trying to say here is for other people, the ones who are more hard-core in their training and who have a sincere commitment to get at the deeper implicatons of internal arts. I have some fear that the recent trend to harsh pragmatism in internal arts will be just as extreme as the peace-and-love-hippie-taichi trend of the 1970's and early 80's, and it may do more harm in the long run by trying to reduce Neigong to a susperstition.

One of the great things about the Daoist models of the body is that they have been continually tested over the last 2500 years, because they are the basis of the medicine as well. The concept of Yuan Qi is not so ritualistic or contrived if you see it as an simple observation of something that can be affected in the body from the outside in a consistent and reproducable manner. Chinese medicine isn't based on the postulation of a theory then its testing. Its based on contemplation and observation without agenda. When the Daoists advocate fangsong-ziran (naturalness) they still do it the context of the derived knowledge of what life is and what the body is.

After all, if Chinese medicine was simply ritual then it wouldn't work on dogs or horses. I'm sure the belief system of the pig has little to do with how effective acupunture anaesthesia is.

Cheers all.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

i hope i never figure i "have it down".. i can only report my current understanding based on my experiences... i have been reading and experimenting with the concepts posted here since the thread began.. The only assertion i can make, based on "my" experince, is that currently the task of reverse breathing doesn't compliment "my" own application of skills in free-sparring.. That being said, it still plays an important role, for me, in the development of internal energies which plays a major role in free-sparring..

That is my own simplistic undrstanding of the topic, yet.. i will continue to experiment and research.. my understandings on most things are subject to revision... (thankfully)..

Best and sincere regards to all..

[Walter Joyce]

Bob,
Understood. You make an excellent point. The gap in neijia arts between neigong, or internal power training, and application, i.e. free sparring is huge. Most people don't truly understand that. And if they do, they say "too hard, takes too long" and walk. Thats ok by me.

But, and I'm going on faith here(I have seen neijia free fighting skills manifested by others, I am still working on it), if one continues to train diligently, that gap closes and the very skills one develops through neigong manifest themselves in a free fighting format.

BUT, this takes TIME. It isn't fast food, or the martial equivalent thereof.

Also, implicit in the idea that taiji should yield instant results is the assumption that most people who see taiji as a fighting art, are learning it to fight.

Newsflash, I learned how to fight a long time ago, I'm working on refinement of skill. I'd bet the same applies to you.

Respectfully,
Walter

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

:D indeed.. at times, its a lonely path.. too many people unwilling to invest the time or adjust their perspectives... but, as you well know, its worth the effort.. if one can stay centered in the crucible of conflict, the clarity outside the arena is inspiring..