Question or 3 for HFY players

[hunt1]

Hope you dont mind.The questions and posts here and other places are just to much for me. Perhaps you can give me something easier to grasp. Yes,I agree the best way to learn is to see it first hand but since that is not possible for me the following:

Situation- you are in a crowded bar or Ohio State Michigan game. lots of drunk rowdy men around and very crowded. You bump into someone and spill their beer.They are drunk call you a nasty name and swing at your head.

1. How would you respond?

2. Is this the same response you would have had when you just knew Moy Yats WC?

3. If the response is different how is it different?

[Savi]

Situation- you are in a crowded bar or Ohio State Michigan game. lots of drunk rowdy men around and very crowded. You bump into someone and spill their beer.They are drunk call you a nasty name and swing at your head.

1. How would you respond?

2. Is this the same response you would have had when you just knew Moy Yats WC?

3. If the response is different how is it different? [/B][/QUOTE]

-----------------------------------------------------
Hi, this is Savi from Mengs of AZ.

1) The most correct thing is to apologize, offer to buy them another drink. One would not be able to address the presented situation from a technical standpoint though from the current information. Does he punch without changing position? Is he moving as he punches? Does he chamber the punch? Are his arms down or up when he punches? Is it a punch coming from the front or back side of him? Is he presenting a front/back position to you? What "type" of punch is it? An upper cut to the head? A jab? A cross? How close is he? How much room do you have? Is he swinging his arm or leg at your head? etc... Are you looking for a technical response?

2) Is this a direct question to a particular person?

3) Again, need more information to accurately answer your question unless you asking somebody in particular.

[Geezer]

I think the answer to the question is,IF is a BIG word:)

What IF my Uncle was built differently,then she would be my Aunt.:D

In the real world you can't ask questions like what would you do in a bar IF someone did this.;)

[JK Walz]

Originally posted by hunt1
Hope you dont mind.The questions and posts here and other places are just to much for me. Perhaps you can give me something easier to grasp. Yes,I agree the best way to learn is to see it first hand but since that is not possible for me the following:

Situation- you are in a crowded bar or Ohio State Michigan game. lots of drunk rowdy men around and very crowded. You bump into someone and spill their beer.They are drunk call you a nasty name and swing at your head.

1. How would you respond?

2. Is this the same response you would have had when you just knew Moy Yats WC?

3. If the response is different how is it different?

I have to agree with the first response. It's really hard to answer questions like this in an internet chat room since the only true way to learn or understand is to EXPERIENCE. This idea is fundamental to the Chan philosophy intrinsic to HFY.

In order to answer your question I invite you to observe a class or participate in a HFY seminar. What else can I say or offer?

JK

[Chango]

I have to say Geezer you displayed and fine example of the limitations of a forum or should I even go as far as saying the written word. JK, Savi - I would even go as far as to say an answer to this question is impossible. especially understand the precise nature of HFY. My example would be to ask the question "Exactly How does a apple taste?" with out using the word apple. Now most of us have experienced the taste of a apple many times but no one can isolate the exact taste with out having those that question take a bite!! No matter what words we use no matter how good we are with the written word. It cannot be exact without taking a bite! There is only one center of the room if off in any direction N.S.E.W up or down etc... or even if off by 1 micron it is no longer the true center. I promise you if you come and see it you will understand why I say this.

Chango (Saat geng sau) :cool:

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by hunt1
Hope you dont mind.The questions and posts here and other places are just to much for me. Perhaps you can give me something easier to grasp. Yes,I agree the best way to learn is to see it first hand but since that is not possible for me the following:

Situation- you are in a crowded bar or Ohio State Michigan game. lots of drunk rowdy men around and very crowded. You bump into someone and spill their beer.They are drunk call you a nasty name and swing at your head.

1. How would you respond?

2. Is this the same response you would have had when you just knew Moy Yats WC?

3. If the response is different how is it different?

Hunt1 - all the responses given are good answers.HFY or even kung fu for that manner is not fixed. Formlessness is a key element.The response I will offer is I dont know how i would respond. If he was really drunk, even swinging at my head he might be way off target. The variables are far too great for an in- depth discussion. I would go as far as to say that if you trained HFY you would not have a programed response either.
-David

[reneritchie]

Chango, say it ain't so!

> "or should I even go as far as saying the written word"

With the breadth and depth of literature in this world, even if we confine ourselves only to English, it is possible not only to read how an apple tastes, but read it in ways and language we, constrained to our own experiences, bound in our own microcosm, might not otherwise imagine. Give me a Shakespear or Asimov or Elison or any of a hundred other apples, and they'll all taste lush and vivid and wonderous.

RR (off to burn my rendered useless copies of Way Virtue Classic, Universe in a Nutshell, Old Man and the Sea, Julius Caeser, Invisible Man, and the rest of library, since they ain't worth nothin' no more 8((( )

[hunt1]

thanks for your replies. The consistency or your answers is impressive. Perhaps one day I will see HFY first hand. I dont travel much for pleasure at the moment. If you are ever in the Tampa Bay area of Florida give me a call. Visotors are always welcome.

If I read you correctly HFY does an analysis of a situation before acting?

[Geezer]

With the breadth and depth of literature in this world, even if we confine ourselves only to English, it is possible not only to read how an apple tastes, but read it in ways and language we, constrained to our own experiences, bound in our own microcosm, might not otherwise imagine.

I don't think there's any way someone could explain to me what a HAGGIS tastes like:confused:

[Chum Kil]

I have a question to the HFY people. Is reading about Chan philosophy a requirement of the system?

[reneritchie]

Sheldon - Well, no, not Haggis. That's the exception that makes the rule. Perhaps if I'd spent time running things over in a NYC cab in the middle of a heatwave in week-old clothes while eating souvlaki and coughing up all manner of bacteria. Perhaps.

But then I'm still working on instantaneously finding the center of an 8 cornered box when 4 of those corners want to aggressively kill the other 4, and both sides are idependantly, unpredictably, and sentiently mobile... 8(

RR

[Savi]

Originally posted by Chum Kil
I have a question to the HFY people. Is reading about Chan philosophy a requirement of the system?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
A requirement of the system? I personally have never called it that... Well let me put it this way. Hung Fa Yi, as with all Shaoiln arts, consists of the 3 treasures of the Shaolin Temple: Combat, health and philosophy.

If you, or any practitioner really, is searching for a full understanding of HFY, or any shaolin art, you have to dive deeply into these 3 areas. If only for one or the other, maybe two out of the three, that is the choice of the practitioner. It depends on where your finger is pointing (the moon?)! To become an HFY teacher, most definitely YES! But not just reading, I'm sure in your question you meant practicing Chan. Chan is the overriding philosophy of the HFY. If you are only interested in fighting and nothing more it is certainly possible to train the HFY, but not understand it.

[Rolling_Hand]

<<<If you, or any practitioner really, is searching for a full understanding of HFY, or any shaolin art, you have to dive deeply into these 3 areas. If only for one or the other, maybe two out of the three, that is the choice of the practitioner.>>>

Well said.

There is one thing stronger than all the armies in the world: and that is an idea whose time has come.

Sitting quietly doing nothing,
Spring comes,
and the grass grows by itself.

Is this Ch'an?

humm...

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Savi

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as with all Shaoiln arts, consists of the 3 treasures of the Shaolin Temple: Combat, health and philosophy.


YES! But not just reading, I'm sure in your question you meant practicing Chan.






If the 3 treasures of Shaolin temple are Combat, health, and philosophy. Might as well turn it into Karaoke house. So everyone can sing and be happy. :D

The 3 treasures of ShaoLin Temple are
Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha
as the Buddha teaches. Otherwise, it is just a Karoke house. LOL

How in the world one can practice Chan when one couldn't even get the a b c basic of Chan right?



It is more fun, positive, and happy to sing Kareoke.
Forget about Shao Lin and WCK, those are just suffering. LOL:D

Sing------
Amitaba Amitaba great great you all are right! so everyone is happy. LOL

[Train]

Yoe Hendrik!!

It seems that you have some knowledge about Chan. I very much agree with you that the 3 treasures of BUDDHISM (not only the Shaolin temple) are Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. But come on dude, you don't have to take it so literally!! Combat, health and philosophy might not be the three treasures but it has a lot to do with buddhism. Matter of fact, Combat, health and philosophy is part of a "Moe Jung" (fighting monks) way of life. So, was it neccesary for you say all that stuff about Karoke?? All you had to do was just correct him. You should loosen up a little! and study more chan... because a true buddhist would never have the kind of tone that you have.... please read more about Compassion... or did you skip that part? LOL! But seriously, those comments to Savi were very unneccesary.
AMI TOH FOH (Buddha Bless You)

[Fresh]

Originally posted by Savi

--------------------------------------------------------------------
A requirement of the system? I personally have never called it that... Well let me put it this way. Hung Fa Yi, as with all Shaoiln arts, consists of the 3 treasures of the Shaolin Temple: Combat, health and philosophy.

If you, or any practitioner really, is searching for a full understanding of HFY, or any shaolin art, you have to dive deeply into these 3 areas. If only for one or the other, maybe two out of the three, that is the choice of the practitioner. It depends on where your finger is pointing (the moon?)! To become an HFY teacher, most definitely YES! But not just reading, I'm sure in your question you meant practicing Chan. Chan is the overriding philosophy of the HFY. If you are only interested in fighting and nothing more it is certainly possible to train the HFY, but not understand it.

It sounds like you have to be a Buddhist to really understand HFY. You said philosophy but it seems like more people practice it as a religion instead of just philosophy.

So would someone have to change their religion to become a HFY teacher or really understand it? Could a Muslim, a Jew or a Christian have a fare shot to become a teacher? How about a Taoist or a Confuscianist? Do some of the students feel pressured to convert to Buddhism? How many non Buddhists actually practice HFY, or does it mostly attract people who are Buddhist anyway? Seems like there a lot of implications in all of this.

[JK Walz]

Originally posted by Hendrik



How in the world one can practice Chan when one couldn't even get the a b c basic of Chan right?


It is more fun, positive, and happy to sing Kareoke.
Forget about Shao Lin and WCK, those are just suffering. LOL:D

Sing------
Amitaba Amitaba great great you all are right! so everyone is happy. LOL

Wow...Hendrick you sure are something! Thanks for enlightening us! A little cryptic critisism goes a long way when you are trying to baffle and belittle people.

At least this post of yours was a little more lucid than normal! Thanks for coming down from your perch on high and **almost** joining us lowly, swamp traversing, human beings in reality.

JK

[JK Walz]

Originally posted by Fresh


It sounds like you have to be a Buddhist to really understand HFY. You said philosophy but it seems like more people practice it as a religion instead of just philosophy.

So would someone have to change their religion to become a HFY teacher or really understand it? Could a Muslim, a Jew or a Christian have a fare shot to become a teacher? How about a Taoist or a Confuscianist? Do some of the students feel pressured to convert to Buddhism? How many non Buddhists actually practice HFY, or does it mostly attract people who are Buddhist anyway? Seems like there a lot of implications in all of this.

Don't read too much into the practice of the Chan philosophy. I admit to being very inexperienced and even naive on this subject but I will say that in my opinion you can apply Chan thinking and philosophy to any "religion", lack of religion, or way of life. At our school we have quite a few people in the HFY program who are Catholic, Mormon, Protestant, athiest, agnostic....so on and so forth. There is no pressure to "convert" since there really is nothing to convert to! There are no assigned religious texts to read, no rituals, no tithing, no secret Chan meetings, no nothing that you would find in a standard religion.

JK

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by JK Walz


Wow...Hendrick you sure are something! Thanks for enlightening us! A little cryptic critisism goes a long way when you are trying to baffle and belittle people.

At least this post of yours was a little more lucid than normal! Thanks for coming down from your perch on high and **almost** joining us lowly, swamp traversing, human beings in reality.

JK

JK,

I learn that from Hui Neng, the 6th patriach of Chan.
So do you still want to join Chan? LOL

[Savi]

Great insight! I think you pointed out an error I did not see, you will have to forgive me on that statement. I think I said that comment (about practicing/reading Chan) directly from my Buddhist nature (I should have restated that comment from a detached/neutral position). It certainly does not mean that anybody has to convert from their religion to understand HFY, just understand its perspective. From a Buddhist perspective (well, at least from my perspective), that understanding only comes from practicing HFY; actually doing it. The saying "Hau Chun San Sao" permeates the HFY. It means to learn first- face to face. Direct from the source. Then to gain a full understanding (100% - no less!) through the rest of the 5 (6 in Buddhism) senses. In other words, learn through experience and interaction with others. *So by default, if you are practicing HFY, and searching for that complete understanding (not yet attained, or even have attained for those at that level), you are in essence practicing Chan. But your religious disposition is yours alone. Not neccesary to violate that just as JK addressed.:)

It is near impossible to justify within yourself what you do in combat to somebody else if you do not understand the philosophy and nature of the system itself. You just won't understand (and "understand" is the key word) what, and why you did what you did when you did what you did. You may KNOW what you have done and how you did it, but I use that in the context of only surface understanding, not a complete/internal understanding. As in my understanding/contemplations going back into history, the Shaolin Temple nurtured those on the path of Chan Buddhism (perhaps only one faucet in the temple, I do not say exclusively!), so those teaching HFY should also be Buddhist. In that sense I could say your conclusion about Buddhist teachers would be correct in reference to the Shaolin monks... these are just my personal thoughts though on history. I'm not an authority on that.

Hendrik, thank you for the information, but are you respecting others' willingness to share their understanding of Chan? Are you sure your understanding is complete and realized? Would you mind clarifying if you consider your understanding to be universal or personal? And are you speaking from a neutral or personal disposition? I'd like to know!

[reneritchie]

This is not Hendrik being cryptic. This, good or bad, is just the way he is, all the time, on the 'net, on the phone, or in person. He is Fujianese of SEA birth, US education, Buddhist pursuit, hyperactive nature, and with children facinated by pokemon. He has rather strict beliefs on what is or is not appropriate in terms of talking about WCK ancestors or Buddhism (which he yells at me about all the time too), so part of his crypticism is just him trying to find nicer ways of telling people he thinks its disrespectful doing what they're doing (he may be wrong, but that's his opinion). He, self-admittedly, has a very hard time communicating, but he has a lot of interesting stuff to share (even if you have to drag it out of him). It may help to consider him something of a Koan. Or to sit him down, calm him down, and get some talking goin.

RR

[yenhoi]

Is HFY not taught in the US?

How would someone go about finding a HFY school or instructor in the US? (West coast?)

I havent done any research yet, starting here.

Thanks in advance.

[taltos]

In the Western US, there are two schools...

In California you have the Hung Fa Kwoon (the headquarters).
http://www.hungfayi.com

And in Arizona you have Meng's Martial Arts of Arizona
http://www.mengsofaz.com

There are other places in the US (Such as the VT Museum at http://www.vtmuseum.org), but the above are the only two in the Wild West.

Hope that helps!

-Levi

[reneritchie]

FWIW - I'm not aware of any branch of WCK that actively promotes a non-personal, non-face-to-face, learning environment (though I suppose anything's possible). My own sigung says you have to learn one on one, directly, and he'll sweat right along with you to do it, hands on, and very directly. I personally agree with this 100%, yet I still think its possible to share some over the various communications mediums. With HFY, however, and the proposal that, unlike the major branches of WCK, it is not personal expression, but science, it should be easier to disseminate non-locally.

BTW- How does this attitude of face-to-face translate to many HFY students living so far away from Gee sifu? Do you notice any difference between the SF students, who have Gee sifu all the time, and the further afield ones?

RR

[teazer]

It may help to consider him something of a Koan. RR

"what is the sound of one hand slapping Hendrik?"

[reneritchie]

> "what is the sound of one hand slapping Hendrik?"

Dunno. His WCK is pretty good, he can generate some scary power, and he has a full contact background, so it may well be silence, followed by a brief thump a few feet away, and a pained "d'oh" from the would-be-slapper ;)

RR

[Savi]

Originally posted by reneritchie
FWIW - I'm not aware of any branch of WCK that actively promotes a non-personal, non-face-to-face, learning environment (though I suppose anything's possible). My own sigung says you have to learn one on one, directly, and he'll sweat right along with you to do it, hands on, and very directly. I personally agree with this 100%, yet I still think its possible to share some over the various communications mediums. With HFY, however, and the proposal that, unlike the major branches of WCK, it is not personal expression, but science, it should be easier to disseminate non-locally.

BTW- How does this attitude of face-to-face translate to many HFY students living so far away from Gee sifu? Do you notice any difference between the SF students, who have Gee sifu all the time, and the further afield ones?

RR

First, I think I understand why there are some practitioners out there that doubt the HFY's "claims", "proposals", "marketing hype", " historical stories" and "theories", etc.... as people have called it. Most of the questions I have read this past month in regard to HFY are expecting all the answers to be spelled out because we call it "science". Science should be able to be spelled out as the quote states. But WHAT kind of science are we talking about. There are many fields in science but HFY's science was not discovered in a lab. It was not created from the periodic table of elements, and it certainly cannot be spelled out in a textbook to be learned step by step. HFY is a MARTIAL science to be proven through its use. The laboratories are the classroom. Information can only point the finger, but it cannot make the audience look at what it's pointing to.

On top of that, the HFYWCK development was a militaristic effort to defend what was China's. Forced underground by the the Qing invaders, do you really think HFY would take a SINGLE chance of any information leaking out to the public? HFY was developed on a basis of SURVIVAL! We have to consider this and we cannot ignore this!

Background info:
The following of course many would disregard and categorize as folklore, but please keep an open mind. As the HFY family has told their students this is the history as I understand it: The achievement of Shaolin was the 30 year collaborative effort of shaolin scholars, military officers, and over 300 shaolin warriors to develop from their existing knowledge, 1 combat system tailored to the natural movements of the human form (governed by the factors of reality: time, space, and energy) to defeat all styles that violate common denominators; To understand the relationship of Life, Death, and our existence through the philosophy of the Shaolin.

How can HFY prove its origins? Let me ask a few more questions to aide in the perspective... How do we find out how old the pyramids are? What about mummies? Trees? Rocks? Bones? How about the birth of our solar system? Does it not take a qualified person(s) to conquer the task? Were any of these answers found documented before the questions were born? And when there is documentation, how do we know it's validity? How do we even know the documentation matches what we are questioning? The only answer is to analyze the subject in question and continually cross-reference findings to available material. In the case of the HFYWCK, if we truly want to know the answers to the historical, technical, and philosophical questions, we cannot assume the answers will come in a format we EXPECT it to. We cannot assume the answer will come the way we want it. One would have to dive into the system deeply to find the answers.

Only a truly educated person with worldwide knowledge and experience of all Wing Chun today (well-rounded in other words) could only decifer if HFY is what it claims to be. Somebody with DEEP experience with qualified masters in all of today's lineages, who has enough information of each lineage to Respect and Understand their uniqueness is only qualified to judge. Just looking at the pyramids from the outside will not tell us how old they are. Even if it were carved in its stone, THAT must be questioned. You'd have to analyze the stone itself to find the true answer. If you really want to find the truth of HFY, you cannot just look at its techniques, or any historical documentations. The system itself is the proof of the science. The truth cannot be seen in its techniques (only to the trained eye), it is in the knowledge behind it. It is these answers which will then validate any discovered documentation or source.

Secondly, Rene's question about "Hau Chuen Saan Sao" and any differences in the students within the current schools... the answer is yes. There are differences in Training Methodologies for each sifu. One HFY person's Tan Sao will look different from another HFY student's, but again that's only looking at the surface. Everybody's form and body is different! But does the expression of proper knowledge behind the technique exist in the student? That is the driving factor of HFY's existence. That then is validated by "Hau Chuen." The success of that depends on highly qualified teachers/masters of the HFYWCK. Sitaigung Gee, Sigung Meng, Sifu Loewenhagen, Sifu Schulz, and all of HFY's disciples consistently meet and work for that quality control. It is a task which words cannot give justice to.

-Savi.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Savi
Great insight! I think you pointed out an error I did not see, you will have to forgive me on that statement. I think I said that comment (about practicing/reading Chan) directly from my Buddhist nature (I should have restated that comment from a detached/neutral position).

Which living beings don't do all things from thier buddha nature?
But do all things from thier buddha nature doesn't mean what they do are all correct and proper.

Sorry, not Buddhist nature. It is Buddha Nature.

I suggest you go to a real Chan Buddhist temple which has Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha and get a sifu to learn about Chan. Otherwise,


See, in Chan, it is said that one rather don't know a thing for ten life cycle than one instant get into the Demonic state.

You can read about the 52 Demonic states in Surangama Sutra.
That is a sutra for practice Chan. There you will find out all those "secret" teaching are actually Demonic States. Read it, see how the Buddha told his followers to be real careful.






So by default, if you are practicing HFY, and searching for that complete understanding (not yet attained, or even have attained for those at that level), you are in essence practicing Chan. But your religious disposition is yours alone.

Sorry, When did Gautama Buddha said that, and in What Sutras?

When there is no Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha, there is no Buddha Dharma.


However, Please don't get me wrong about HFY, I belive HFY doesn't have to prove anything. I can respect HFY as it is.


My point is just ,watch out for the Chan practised. It is not something fun when one get serious.
See, one can Check, most monks will at the end become Pureland school practitioners. They change from Chan to Pureland, Why?

For you all who interested in Chan, sincerely, read the Surangama Sutra.




Hendrik, thank you for the information, but are you respecting others' willingness to share their understanding of Chan? Are you sure your understanding is complete and realized? Would you mind clarifying if you consider your understanding to be universal or personal? And are you speaking from a neutral or personal disposition? I'd like to know! [/QUOTE]

Sure, I repsecting your willingness to share your understanding of Chan.

Why don't you share with all of us in the Forum,
Who taught you Chan? Which lineage of Chan? When?
Where? and what is Chan?



By the way, Chan is not about Understanding. So, get that correct before asking other questions.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Train
Yoe Hendrik!!

It seems that you have some knowledge about Chan. I very much agree with you that the 3 treasures of BUDDHISM (not only the Shaolin temple) are Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. But come on dude, you don't have to take it so literally!! Combat, health and philosophy might not be the three treasures but it has a lot to do with buddhism. Matter of fact, Combat, health and philosophy is part of a "Moe Jung" (fighting monks) way of life. So, was it neccesary for you say all that stuff about Karoke?? All you had to do was just correct him. You should loosen up a little! and study more chan... because a true buddhist would never have the kind of tone that you have.... please read more about Compassion... or did you skip that part? LOL! But seriously, those comments to Savi were very unneccesary.
AMI TOH FOH (Buddha Bless You)

You want serious buddhist speaking?

Speak about Moe Jung, before the 8 western countries capture BeiJing in 1900's. The So Called Moe Jung burn and destory Christian Churches....
Then, when the 8 western countries capture Beijing, the Westerners army in return burn the Buddhist temple and killed the Moe Jung.

This is Karma as Chan Patriach Hsu Yun taught about this incident.

So, I rather go and sing Kareoke then create those killing and destroying Karma.

In the name of God, Taiping revolution, how many get killed? Red Junk ambush how many get killed? How many innocent people?

Read the Surangama Sutra and find out for yourself. What happen with commiting Killing karma.



By the way, Compassionate is not about being nice.
Compassionate is about tell the truth before others fell.

Chan practiced as the ancient monks said, is a path similar to a knife. It cuts both side. Without a Chan Patriach grade of Sifu, forget about it. Even with a Chan Patriach grade of sifu some students still get into Demonic state.

So, be compassionate? Can you help when one has get into those Demonic state when they ruen their life?
I know I can't so I rather be serious know.


I rest my opinion about Chan here. If Anyone get offended from my seriousness I appology to you here.

Train, To Losen up, sing karaoke. LOL

[Rolling_Hand]

Quote:
---------------------------------------------------------------
You should loosen up a little! and study more chan... because a true buddhist would never have the kind of tone that you have.... please read more about Compassion... or did you skip that part? LOL! But seriously, those comments to Savi were very unneccesary.
AMI TOH FOH (Buddha Bless You)
----------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Train,

There is a mediocre buddhist wannabe here, and he's entitled to a little representation.

humm...

Ami Toh Foh

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by reneritchie
This is not Hendrik being cryptic. This, good or bad, is just the way he is, all the time, on the 'net, on the phone, or in person. He is Fujianese of SEA birth, US education, Buddhist pursuit, hyperactive nature, and with children facinated by pokemon. He has rather strict beliefs on what is or is not appropriate in terms of talking about WCK ancestors or Buddhism (which he yells at me about all the time too), so part of his crypticism is just him trying to find nicer ways of telling people he thinks its disrespectful doing what they're doing (he may be wrong, but that's his opinion). He, self-admittedly, has a very hard time communicating, but he has a lot of interesting stuff to share (even if you have to drag it out of him). It may help to consider him something of a Koan. Or to sit him down, calm him down, and get some talking goin.

RR


Thanks Rene,

You know, there are things one can be losen up.

There are things one has to be serious. As for the ancestors, Chinese has to respect ancestors. That is called Drinking the water remember the source. Thus, one cannot just forcing others to change ancestors.

In ancient China, it goes as far as when one lost one's country, one rather not burried in the earth of new dynasty but hangging thier coffin.


Buddhism, Chan, that is a sharp knife, a boat to cross life and death.
It is serious stuffs. The phrase " Chao For Yam Mo" or running fire get into Demonic states is applied in Chan practiced.

Chan Buddhist reads Surangama Sutra in order to Identify the 52 demonic states because each state comes with power.
So, Even if one practiced the Emei 12 Zhuang system of meditation still the Surangama sutra applied.

Seriously, Hung Siew-Chuang of the Taiping fitted to the description within 52 demonic states. And as you know, how many innorcent die when the power vanist? WCK's people in the Red Junk also suffer due to this.

As for Demonic state, in the present day, we called those as nuts, or Cultist.....


I have no problem with different ideas.

But, I chose to be serious about Ancestors and Chan. Because one has to responsible to the Ancestors and the future generation. Those are the teaching of traditional Chinese.

Those are Yee yes. As the Yee of HFY. Be responsible and do the right thing.

[planetwc]

So the wannabee is you Trolling hand right?

As Hendrik is a direct disciple of a Buddhist patriarch.
So far none of the rest of the poster's here have that direct lineage and depth of background that he does. Especially you.
So you aren't even on the playing field of buddhist life bud.




Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
Quote:
---------------------------------------------------------------


Hi Train,

There is a mediocre buddhist wannabe here, and he's entitled to a little representation.

humm...

Ami Toh Foh

[Rolling_Hand]

Trolling PlanetWC,

You're put in a dilemma when Hendrik turns to you for help and you feel uneasy about giving it. It's a tough call, be patient, Ami Toh Foh...

[teazer]

Originally posted by reneritchie

so it may well be silence, followed by a brief thump a few feet away, and a pained "d'oh" from the would-be-slapper ;)


But if the Slapper falls near Hendrik and nobody hears him, does he say "d'oh"?

[Savi]

Hendrik,

I am not an authority on Chan Buddhism. I never claimed to be. I am only presenting what MY understanding is, and I even make that clear in nearly EVERY one of my posts. Your response to my post, however, contradicts the behavior of what I know to be Buddhism.

MY Buddhist nature is that of the flower, NOT the sword. If you tell me I am wrong, then I must ask you to tell me how I should be.

I will make this clear to you:

I was not raised in Chan/Zen. I grew up only knowing the story of Siddhartha, who preaches Compassion. I've read your comments, and I wonder why you feel you need to put me in my place. I am speaking from my place. I speak from my heart. I have just begun to learn about Chan/Zen, but I never claim to be an expert on the subject.

It is clear you speak from the BUDDHA nature, but it seems you have misinterpreted me to be doing the same. Sorry for the confusion.

Your seriousness deserves respect, as it is clear you are extremely sensitive to the subject. If my personal understanding of what I currently know offends you, feel free to let me know and I will clarify again that I only speak from MY understanding. I do not represent any one religion, lineage, martial art, or philosophy. Only myself and my understanding.

Your suggestions to me are noted.

I do have one question for you as it is also clear you are an authority on the subject. What does the swastika on the Buddha's chest mean? Does it represent anything?

[planetwc]

Dear Trolling Hand,

I'm in no dilemma. I still wonder why you go so negative on Joy Chaudhuri, Rene Ritchie and Hendrik Santo. It's nothing but insults, negative insinuations and jibes ad nauseam from you.

Maybe you are an equal opportunity troller and just decided to devote your life to slamming them while on this forum.

You were almost holding steady there, with a full english post without resorting to crypto-troll speak. I still wonder what your intent is, and why you can't be more upfront about it, rather than this obscure ritualistic "drive bys" you engage in.

If you indeed have such deep issues against these men, why not drop the pretense, state your feelings and get it over with?

I don't think any of them are interested in hunting you down in your secret location. And engaging in some Batman vs the Riddler smackdown.

Come out from the closet Roger, into the light. Take the veil off your posts and actually contribute to some discussions here.

Whaddya say?



Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
Trolling PlanetWC,

You're put in a dilemma when Hendrik turns to you for help and you feel uneasy about giving it. It's a tough call, be patient, Ami Toh Foh...

[OdderMensch]

1>How do we find out how old the pyramids are? What about mummies?

erosion patterns and depth on the surface; comparable date of artifacts found in and around the pyramids, includeing the mummies themelves; colaborated, cross reffeced doucumentation of their existance both from within Egypt and from other later civilizations gives us a good starting point.

2>Trees? Rocks? Bones?

for animate objects an examineation of the growth pattern/devolpment of the tree or bone. once the object is renderd inanimate, the decay of certain isotopes can be fairly precise, and the general context can give many general clues (ie a human femur is not likely to be over a few tens of thousands of years old, a rock with certain fossils or geological features must be this or that old)

3>How about the birth of our solar system?

for there to be a solar sytem there must be a sun. our sun is a star, that like any other star emits energy as light. by studying the light from this close by star and comparing it with other star we assume that our sun is X type of star.

by closely studying even the tiny number of stars confined to our own small galaxy we can (and have) learned much about the death birth and lifecycles of this type of star.

therefore much as in the above example for an animate object we follo its growth cycle and estimate an age from there.

4>Does it not take a qualified person(s) to conquer the task?

yes and once they have done this they can write out and publish their facts, theorys and findings. those findings can then atempt to withstand peer review and be acepted as fact or rejected as "mere theory"

5>Were any of these answers found documented before the questions were born?

in two of the above cases, yes.

6>And when there is documentation, how do we know it's validity? How do we even know the documentation matches what we are questioning?

cross refrenceing, source checking and peer review are the acepted methods I believe.



The only answer is to analyze the subject in question and continually cross-reference findings to available material.

however if there is no such outside reference material (such as documents, personal notes, verifiable acounts of its creation & transmission, ect) and only the "artifact itself" exists then we must presume that all theorys and legends of its past and orgin are just that, theorys and legends.


The following of course many would disregard and categorize as folklore, but please keep an open mind. As the HFY family has told their students this is the history as I understand it: The achievement of Shaolin was the 30 year collaborative effort of shaolin scholars, military officers, and over 300 shaolin warriors to develop from their existing knowledge, 1 combat system tailored to the natural movements of the human form (governed by the factors of reality: time, space, and energy) to defeat all styles that violate common denominators; To understand the relationship of Life, Death, and our existence through the philosophy of the Shaolin.

if that is the story then thats great, I am hardly one to disregard folklore or legends, the hero having a thousand faces and all. But I don't mistake it for history, heck i don't mistake 3/4 of what was in my highschool texts as history.

I have read little of this debate, even if all the claims were true it is unlikely to discourage me from my current line of training, nor to encourage me to seek out the VTM or affiliate for training. I may not have the combined knowledge of several of the more "popular" versions of the system, nor am I learning an obscoure or isolated liniage hellbent on secrecy. however I have seen the results my Sifu has had with my Sihing, and I marvel at his own skill. I very much doubt that would be the case were my Sifu's teaching to lack something so fudemental as an acceptence of the limits of reality.

while there have been many intesting threads and posts on the subject in the last few weeks it has become much like the cult classic film (note heavy sarcasm here) "dude, wheres my car?"

"it is powerful and mysterious. and its power is surpassed only by its mystery."

if the true history of WCK is truely so shaded from the light of history that no 1st person acounts of its creation exist then we must assume that any acount of its origin my well be "mere legend"

please note that I realy have little interst in this paticular debate, I was merely tired, I was led to belive that a book of some sort will be forthcoming? my plan is to hold an preconceptions till I can read & review the facts.

[{i^(]

I hadn't wanted to post here anymore because of the limitations of written speech, and the miscues that happen in result.

But in this case, I'll comment only on this. I completely see what Hendrik is referring to here, when he says:

"By the way, Compassionate is not about being nice.
Compassionate is about tell the truth before others fell. "

Although I come from a vastly different background. There is a religious concept I grew up with, that of "subsidized self-destruction", and it's a major sin. An example might be: a heroin addict needs heroin, but to give him that subsidizes his self-destruction. Indeed, compassion is not about being nice.

There is a kind of doorway here, it's just a little dark to see it. :cool: Very nice.

[{i^(]

planetwc, what we have here in this particular case of "trolling", there are rules for and categories of. [without getting into the 'rules' too much, you need a 'higher level' troll to rid yourself of a 'lower' one. responses/flames don't work. it's a game, i think]

rolling_hand has asserted dominance in a ritualized fashion by getting others to admit that they know something, which means he wins because he tricked them into showing off knowledge, which in our anti-intellectual society moves them down the pecking order... (Hope it didn't hurt, guys.)

This kind of "trolling" is actually an evolutionary vestige of the time when human beings were still evolving from spiders* and used it as a mating ritual. I think he likes you and Hendrik.

This particular posting style is called "meta-troll", in which I post something with a completely straight face in hopes that someone else would try to make it look like I was being sarcastic.

There are also "meta-meta-trolls", which are sort of complicated to explain (if they even exist--I might be lying about whether there is such a thing as a meta-meta-troll solely to get people to try posting one) and then there's "accidental trolling" and "self-trolling". Self-trolling probably will never occur in a group like KFO, though--it only happens in places where people are so clueless that they can confuse themselves.

*Reference: Star Trek: The Next Generation "Genesis", where Barclay turns into a spider because he's devolving. They have a science consultant for the show so everything on it must be real. Also, I too believe that humans evolved from spiders. <-- TROLL:D

[Hendrik]

[/B]
Your suggestions to me are noted.

I do have one question for you as it is also clear you are an authority on the subject. What does the swastika on the Buddha's chest mean? Does it represent anything? [/B][/QUOTE]

Savi,

Get the Surangama Sutra.
That answers alots of your questions.



As for what is the swastika on the Buddha's chest mean.
Someday, when you attain the Buddhahood which you will,
you will know what it is and then tell us.

All living being are equal in potential because every living being has buddha nature and will be attain the buddhahood.




Best Regards
Hendrik

[HuangKaiVun]

"Why don't you share with all of us in the Forum,
Who taught you Chan? Which lineage of Chan? When?
Where? and what is Chan"

Who the heck CARES?

You sit down, you meditate. You listen to the voices of the world around you and inside you. You eat your food. You ENJOY IT.

Having some patriarch of Chan boss me around won't make the ice cream I eat taste any better.

[yuanfen]

Hi David----



Dear Trolling Hand,

I'm in no dilemma. I still wonder why you go so negative on Joy Chaudhuri, Rene Ritchie and Hendrik Santo. It's nothing but insults, negative insinuations and jibes ad nauseam from you.

((What doesnt kill me- makes me stronger. Note to self- ignore
arrogant xyzs- atleast try. Dont feed trolls))

Maybe you are an equal opportunity troller and just decided to devote your life to slamming them while on this forum.

((No -very very selective. You have to know the pattern here and on VTAA
**** pot- same old same old.))

You were almost holding steady there, with a full english post without resorting to crypto-troll speak. I still wonder what your intent is, and why you can't be more upfront about it, rather than this obscure ritualistic "drive bys" you engage in.

((Why wonder? Deeply alienated ))

If you indeed have such deep issues against these men, why not drop the pretense, state your feelings and get it over with?

((Not in his character.Obsessive/compulsive self loathing.))))

I don't think any of them are interested in hunting you down in your secret location. And engaging in some Batman vs the Riddler smackdown.

((Not even if he were in Chandler. Poor choice for a friend or an enmy.))

Come out from the closet Roger, into the light. Take the veil off your posts and actually contribute to some discussions here.

((Spiders(under rocks) have to be spiders- the nature of things))

Whaddya say?

((Good luck- David. With all the posturing and sarcasm- its those with real curiosity who miss out in not having serious discussions even when there are differences in perspectives and opinions))

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
"Why don't you share with all of us in the Forum,
Who taught you Chan? Which lineage of Chan? When?
Where? and what is Chan"

Who the heck CARES?

You sit down, you meditate. You listen to the voices of the world around you and inside you. You eat your food. You ENJOY IT.

Having some patriarch of Chan boss me around won't make the ice cream I eat taste any better.


Great example of the demon states.

[Rolling_Hand]

Quote:
------------------------------------------------------
rolling_hand has asserted dominance in a ritualized fashion by getting others to admit that they know something, which means he wins because he tricked them into showing off knowledge, which in our anti-intellectual society moves them down the pecking order... (Hope it didn't hurt, guys.)
------------------------------------------------------

Dear {i^(

hahaha....good to see ya dude!

It's my pleasure to meet a good poker player here. But you won't win any hand by acting arrogantly. It's worth eating some humble pie.

The art of being wise is the art knowing what to over-look. This is also known as WCK deceptive hand.

Rgds

Rolling_Hand

[HuangKaiVun]

You are indeed a great example of the demon states, Hendrik.

So wrapped up you are in your little lineage questions that you fail to recognize the joy you could have around you.

Lost you are, adrift in a sea of fresh water, screaming "I thirst".

[anerlich]

Self-trolling probably will never occur in a group like KFO, though

Some of red5angel's early posts gave it a serious nudge, though. I agree with many that he has since improved at lot, but still devolves now and then.

[teazer]

So wrapped up you are in your little lineage questions that you fail to recognize the joy you could have around you.

Lost you are, adrift in a sea of fresh water, screaming "I thirst".

Just me is it, or tendency there is, to 'YodaSpeak"?

[yuanfen]

Hendrick responding to Savi sez;

As for what is the swastika on the Buddha's chest mean.

((The semiotic roots of the swastika have had the terrible overgrowth in Nazi hands- but the origins and meanigs are ancient and even pre-buddhist. Swastika the harmonious circle that comnnects all... compared to the non harmonious and unhealthy nastika. The Buddha nature is non dualistic hence the swastika- not nastika. With/when the swastika circles--the gulf between yin and yang disappears.))


Someday, when you attain the Buddhahood which you will,
you will know what it is and then tell us.

((everyone is interconnected in a continuum.))

All living being are equal in potential because every living being has buddha nature and will be attain the buddhahood

((That was also the Boddhidharma's teaching))
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

PS: I do not know Hendrik's Cho family wc-its shapes or motions.
But his statements on Chan are not that cryptic IMO....though they may sound odd to some.

[HuangKaiVun]

I don't find his statements cryptic either, yuanfen.

I should also add that I don't agree in the least with what Hendrik says. He and I don't see things the same and probably never will.

Nevertheless, I really appreciate him for being a devoted and extremely knowledgeable Buddhist. I as a Buddhist recognize his brotherhood more than his differences.

For that he has my growling respect!