Tai Chi Sword

[Tai-Jutsuka]

I just got a Tai Chi Sword today and I'd like to know a good way to clean it.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

sewing machine oil

[RAF]

This is an old article regarding the history of the taiji sword. Any additions or comments would be greatly appreciated.

I have this old piece from SUMMER 1994, VOL. 2, NO. 2, THE JOURNAL OF THE CHEN STYLE TAIJIQUAN RESEARCH ASSOCIATION OF HAWAII. The article is entitled:

"Notes on the Taiji Sword (Taiji Jian)"

In a recent book about Taiji sword (jian) by Li De-Yin [Taiji Jian Ru Men], Introduction to Taiji Sword, Beijing, 1993, the author currently states in his Preface: "In the historical materials on Taijiquan currently available, it is very difficult to locate any records on Taiji sword." In the [Chen Shi Jia Pu] and [Quan Xie Pu] one can't find any written record; in Li Yi-Yu's hand copied edition of Wang Zong-Yue's [Taijiquan Pu] one also can't find any record; in the records of Jian Fa, Yang Lu-Chan, and Wu Yu-Xiang studying or teaching martial art there is also no mention to be found [sword, jian]." [Li De-Yin is the nephew of Li Tian-Ji (b. 1915) learned martial arts from his father Li Yu-Lin 1885-1965 (Sun and Yang style Taiji, Xingyi, and Shaolin, etc.) as well as Wudang sword from General Li Jing-Lin (Fang-Chen) in the early 1930s.

The Wudang Sword of Li Jing-Lin

"In 1930, the famous veteran martial artist Li Jing-Lin arrived in Jinan and set up the "Shandong Province Martial Arts School" [Shandong Sheng Guoshu Guan], inviting my father Li Yu-Lin to come to Shandong from Shanghai to assume the post of Head of Instruction (jiao wu zhu ren) for the school. At that time I was just 18, and was a student at the school. At this time, I had the opportunity to learn the Wudang sword art from Mr. Li Jing-Lin. Counting the prearranged routines (tao lu) of the Wudang sword art, there was one solo practice set, 6 sets of dual (two person) training, among these the 6th set was moving-step (huo bu) dual training, there was also a free-form training (san jian) [not a prearranged set].

Mr. Li Jing-Lin was a native of Zaoqiang County, Hebei Province, from an early age he had an intense liking for martial arts, he graduated from the Baoding Military Officiers' School, he served as the commander fo the First Army of the [Feng Jun or Liaoning] army [under the warlord Zhang Zuo-Lin], and as Military Governor (jun wu du ban) of Hebei Province. After 1925, under the suspicion of Zhang Zuo-Lin, he was summarily dismissed. Afterwards, he devoted all his efforts to martial arts activites. Lin Jing-Ling himslef said that he had studied his Wudang Sword with an unusual person from Northern Anhui Province, Chen Shi-Jun. In reality, this was a fabrication, because there isn't any record of this person (having existed). In acutal fact, Li Jing-Lin learned his Wudang sword from Song Wei-Yi of Beizhen in Liaoning Province.

In 1922, while garrisoning the JinZhou area [Liaoning Province] one of his officers, Ding Qi-Rui, became acquainted with a martial arts expert Song Wei-Yi. Song was skilled in Baguazhang and the art of the sword, and, had written a work [on the sword] in 3 parts entitled [Wudang Jian Pu Zhang Xiang Wu has hand-copies of this]. Because of this, Li went to visit him at his residence, and, he implored Song to demonstrate with a performance of his sword art. Later, he also invited Song as a guest to his residence in Tianjin, treating him as a distinguished visitor, requesting of Song that he teach him his barehanded boxing method and sword art. Stuyding with him were Li Jing-Ling's officers Jiang Xing-Shan, Guo Qi-Feng, Ding Qi-Rui, and Zhang Xian (Zhang Xiang Wu). At that time, the sword art of Song Wei-Yi mainly made use of solo practice practice and free-form practice (san lian). After Li Jing-Lin obtained this art, he expended great effort, performing extensive research (on the art), and, on the basis of of the foundation of solo practice, he also created 6 two person traiing sets (dui lian tao lu). Because of this he enjoyed a reputation in the martial arts circles for his superb sword technique. [from Zenyang Lian Wudang Jian] [How to practice the Wudang Sword by Li Tian-Ji, as included in the compliation [Wudang Jue Ji - Mi Ben Zhen Ben Hui Bian (Xu Ji) Changchun 1989. pp. 21-22

_____________________________________________


There is much more in the article but its pretty choppy and no mention of how the sword got into the Yang lineage is indicated, other than Yang Lu Chan didn't have it.

The article traces out the entire history of taiji from Chen and states: "Naturally, the Taiji sword split accordingly into the different schools. However, at present, there still are not written expostion on the Taiji sword of each of the schools, so it isn't possible to know exaclty their differences." p. 21

"It is also possible to maintain that the art of the Taiji swor was the product of a later graft of an unspecified sword art onto the already existing system consisting of Taijiquan., the Taiji broadsword, spear and staff. Li De-Yin proposes, in his (taiji Jian Ru Men, p. 13) that "according to [unspecified research], each of the present-day styles of taiji sword can be seen as having been derived from one of 3 types of sword, the "Xuan Hua" sword, the "San Cai" sword, and the "Qian Kun" sword." p.18

I may read through and post a couple more pieces regarding Chen sword.

Doc Fai Wong wrote that Song Wei Yi and Yang Ban Hou traded form for sword and that is how the Taiji sword came to be in the Yang family lineage. As stated earlier, there is no documented evidence or even oral history that Yang Lu Chan practiced a jian form. Oral history says he practiced a spear and dao.

This still doesn't address how it came to be in the Chen family lineage.


Addtions, comments, etc. etc. welcome.
________________________________________________

[dedalus]

Very interesting RAF. My curiosity was piqued on this very issue a few days ago when you expressed your opinion that Luch'an only had the spear, staff and broadsword.

I myself have never learned the Cheng-Fu jian because I don't really like the flavour of the form (an opinion that seems to cut strongly against the tide of everyone else's taste). There's probably not much more to it than that (in fact, there may be less - eg. I don't like jians period), but I was unaware that the jian had a more mysterious family history than the other weapons.

[RAF]

Dedalus:

I actually got interested in this question maybe 6 or 7 years ago. I read about some of Zhang Man Qing students having superb sword skills, including Zhang Man Qing himself. I never could find out its history nor the auxilliary exercises needed to be good at the sword. Yeah, I know, Yang Cheng Fu picks up a broom handle or brush and defeats an opponent.

As I started into my own taiji sword (I had a kun wu sword form for years), we learned some simple but effective two man sword training techniques. They are really no big secret and once you see them you quickly learn how only practice makes them useful (very similar to bagua rou shou, two swords connect and you continuously circle the arms while also walking in a circle facing each other. Then you simply execute movements both offensive and defensive from the form itself).

Well, I went up against some people who had none of the experience I had in the kun wu form or taiji sword and I quickly found out how unskilled I was. Not because they were skilled, but because I could not control their lack of skill like jabbing me in the leg or missing the move and my inability to counter. Now I have experiential truth that simply doing a sword form will not make you skilled.

It hits me like a rock, how can you have skill in taiji swordsmanship or any sword without tons of two man practice. So I ask around the Zhang Man Qing people whom I know and none has an answer (actually they avoid the answer since they only play the sword form). I ask what auxilliary exercises did Zhang Man Qing teach or what two man form did he teach inorder to develop the skill (BTW, this is not a flame on Zhang Man Qing practitioners. I later find out that vary few sword practitioners do two man exercises and two man forms).

I read Barb Davis's book and read Chen Weiming's comment about not have the exercises too (Li Jing Lin taught them to him). Now if Yang Cheng Fu didn't teach him and I can't find out what Zhang Man Qing taught (maybe its a secret) then how does anyone acquire excellent swordsmanship in taijiquan?

Then I start to think, when did the sword (jian) come into the Yang lineage? Couldn't have come from the Chen's because I read that their jian enters in around the 1920s or 30s. Hmmm, Yang Lu Chan oral history never talks about his jian skills. Chen Fake's daughter has a jian form (old Journal of Chen style has the routine laid out) yet I never read or hear about Chen Fake having a sword form.

Only Doc Fai Wong, in an old article in Wushu/Kung Fu, says the sword comes from a daoist, Song Wei Yi. Well, I know how this Song Wei Yi fits into my lineage but I can never find anybody else who verifies it through the Yang lineage. So I doubt if it comes through Song Wei Yi but I post and never get an responses about where the Yang or Chen sword comes from.

Its just odd, especially regarding Yang stylsts claim of having excellent swordsmanship (which very well might be true) and not knowing how it came into the lineage and what two man exercises and fight forms were practiced.

How strange.

[taijiquan_student]

The Yangjia Michuan Jian practiced by Scott Rodell (my teacher) comes from Yang Jianhou (or Lu Chan, though of course it's hard to say) via Zhang Qinlin, a disciple of Jianhou, and teacher of ZMQ (not for sword). The michuan has basic cuts, which are practiced thousands of times before learning the form, a form, two-man drills and excercises, free swordfighting, and other excercices for developing accuracy in the cuts among other things. At least at my school, we learn the jian as a complete system. Not that I've seen much sword at all (I just started), but from what I've read, very few other schools do more than practice a form. Rodell is the moderator of the chinese swordsmanship forum over at swordforum.com, and there have been lots of Yangjia/Yangshi sword discussions there.

As far as sword history, all I really know is that Zhang Qinlin learned the michuan system (barehand and weapons) from Yang Jianhou. As far as I know, Jianhou studied from his father. The lineage stuff can be fun, but ultimately it comes down to what we're doing today. I know you guys know that, by the way. Interesting discussion.

[RAF]

Taiji_Student:

I posted on the sword forum site too. The michuan looks interesting and read a bit about what you school is doing. That's very unique and good.

Sometimes lineage stops dead and you just go on and that's about what I have been doing.

Just posted a inquiry to see what stirs.

[kai men]

Sung Wei Yi was Li Jing Lin´s teacher. He (Li Jing Lin) taught to hu Wuen Chou, Doc Fi Wong´s teacher. That´s why they trace their sword lineaje to Sung Wei Yi.
Regards
horacio

[norther practitioner]

OK, so now I am putting together a little history, anatomy, and terminology email for a taiji class on the straight sword.

Does anyone have any good info, sites, reads, etc. on the history of the sword, the 32 form, and the names of Chinese sword parts?

Any help is apprieciated. Thanks in advance. I haven't gotten too much info aside from the basics that I already know, so anything should help.

[NorthernShaolin]

NP,

Well I can give you four books in English but you more than likely know about them already.

1. The Art of Chinese Swordmanship, A Manual of Taiji Jian by Zhang Yun, 1998 Weatherhill Inc, NY, ISBN 0-8348-0412-3, $23.00 US.

2. Northern Shaolin Sword by Yang Jwing Ming,YMAA Publication Center, 2000, ISBN 1-886969-85-X, $25 US

3. Tai Chi Thirteen Sword, A Sword Master's Manual, by Stuart Olson, Unique Publication, 1998, ISBN 1-892515-14-8, $20 US

4. Chinese Swordsmanship, The Yang Family Taiji Jian Tradition by Scott Rodell, 2003, Seven Stars Book and Video, ISBN 0-9743999-0-6, $30? US

[Midnight]

http://www.shadowofleaves.com/Chinese_Sword_History.htm

http://www.chinesearms.com/chinesearms/chinesearms/001/articles/menu.htm

[norther practitioner]

Thank you both, I appreciate the help.

[GeneChing]

Sewing machine oil? Why not sword oil? There are products specifically designed for swords like Hanwei Sword Oil (http://www.martialartsmart.com/45-2110.html). And there's not too much of a price difference. If you really want to go traditional, MartialArtsMart.com offers Japanese Sword Maintenance kits (http://www.martialartsmart.com/35-1003.html).

But on to the real reason that I'm necro-hijacking this thread....see next post. ;)

[GeneChing]

Enter to win KungFuMagazine.com's contest for Tai Chi Sword Classical Yang Style (2nd. Ed.) Autographed by Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/sweepstakes-tai-chi-sword-classical-yang-style.php)! Contest ends 6:00 p.m. PST on 10/16/14. Good luck everyone!

[GeneChing]

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[GeneChing]

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[GeneChing]

See our WINNERS-TAI-CHI-SWORD-for-Beginners-on-DVD-autographed-by-Dr-Yang-Jwing-Ming (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?69052-WINNERS-TAI-CHI-SWORD-for-Beginners-on-DVD-autographed-by-Dr-Yang-Jwing-Ming) thread.

[GeneChing]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QT2rmtF6498

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/images/mzine/cover2013_04.jpg
JULY+AUGUST 2013 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1096)

Tai Chi Sword (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?16357-Tai-Chi-Sword) at the KUNG FU TAI CHI 25TH ANNIVERSARY FESTIVAL - May 19-21, 2017 - San Jose, CA (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?69762-KUNG-FU-TAI-CHI-25TH-ANNIVERSARY-FESTIVAL-May-19-21-2017-San-Jose-CA)

[GeneChing]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoftE52tPDI

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine/upload/2513_KFM2014-October-Cover.jpg

SEP+OCT 2014 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1167)

Tai Chi Sword (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?16357-Tai-Chi-Sword) @ KUNG FU TAI CHI 25TH ANNIVERSARY FESTIVAL (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?69762-KUNG-FU-TAI-CHI-25TH-ANNIVERSARY-FESTIVAL-May-19-21-2017-San-Jose-CA)

[GeneChing]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cw4a8-XRGlw

Tai Chi Sword (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?16357-Tai-Chi-Sword) @ KUNG FU TAI CHI 25TH ANNIVERSARY FESTIVAL (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?69762-KUNG-FU-TAI-CHI-25TH-ANNIVERSARY-FESTIVAL-May-19-21-2017-San-Jose-CA)

[GeneChing]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsg5WlItuf4

Tai Chi Sword (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?16357-Tai-Chi-Sword) @ KUNG FU TAI CHI 25TH ANNIVERSARY FESTIVAL (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?69762-KUNG-FU-TAI-CHI-25TH-ANNIVERSARY-FESTIVAL-May-19-21-2017-San-Jose-CA)

[GeneChing]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klq5w7Sud4s

Tai Chi Sword (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?16357-Tai-Chi-Sword) @ KUNG FU TAI CHI 25TH ANNIVERSARY FESTIVAL (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?69762-KUNG-FU-TAI-CHI-25TH-ANNIVERSARY-FESTIVAL-May-19-21-2017-San-Jose-CA)

This is the final video for KFTC25 AF for our YouTube channel. Thanks to Bad Ass Bunny Productions (http://www.badassbunnyproductions.com/) for providing content.

We'll see you all next year at the 10th Tiger Claw Elite KungFuMagazine.com Championship - May 19-20 2018, San Jose CA (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?70463-10th-Tiger-Claw-Elite-KungFuMagazine-com-Championship-May-19-20-2018-San-Jose-CA).

[GeneChing]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvkLffeYfps

Thread: Tai Chi Sword (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?16357-Tai-Chi-Sword)
Thread: Sword Hotties (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?41007-Sword-hotties)

[Jimbo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvkLffeYfps

Thread: Tai Chi Sword (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?16357-Tai-Chi-Sword)
Thread: Sword Hotties (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?41007-Sword-hotties)

While Miss Saito is an excellent athlete, why do these types of competitions only seem to emphasize the importance of the kicks and jumps? It is, after all, a SWORD form, is it not? There seems to be little or no mention of the handling of the sword itself. I realize this is a wushu competition, but still. Also, the wushu sword's tip bends/flops noticeably downward when she extends it out with the flat of the blade held horizontally. I'm wondering how their forms would be affected if the athletes had to perform with an old, heavier, traditional sword. It would certainly affect the body mechanics as well as the strength requirements.

[Mfinn]

Dedalus:

I actually got interested in this question maybe 6 or 7 years ago. I read about some of Zhang Man Qing students having superb sword skills, including Zhang Man Qing himself. I never could find out its history nor the auxilliary exercises needed to be good at the sword. Yeah, I know, Yang Cheng Fu picks up a broom handle or brush and defeats an opponent.

As I started into my own taiji sword (I had a kun wu sword form for years), we learned some simple but effective two man sword training techniques. They are really no big secret and once you see them you quickly learn how only practice makes them useful (very similar to bagua rou shou, two swords connect and you continuously circle the arms while also walking in a circle facing each other. Then you simply execute movements both offensive and defensive from the form itself).

Well, I went up against some people who had none of the experience I had in the kun wu form or taiji sword and I quickly found out how unskilled I was. Not because they were skilled, but because I could not control their lack of skill like jabbing me in the leg or missing the move and my inability to counter. Now I have experiential truth that simply doing a sword form will not make you skilled.

It hits me like a rock, how can you have skill in taiji swordsmanship or any sword without tons of two man practice. So I ask around the Zhang Man Qing people whom I know and none has an answer (actually they avoid the answer since they only play the sword form). I ask what auxilliary exercises did Zhang Man Qing teach or what two man form did he teach inorder to develop the skill (BTW, this is not a flame on Zhang Man Qing practitioners. I later find out that vary few sword practitioners do two man exercises and two man forms).

I read Barb Davis's book and read Chen Weiming's comment about not have the exercises too (Li Jing Lin taught them to him). Now if Yang Cheng Fu didn't teach him and I can't find out what Zhang Man Qing taught (maybe its a secret) then how does anyone acquire excellent swordsmanship in taijiquan?

Then I start to think, when did the sword (jian) come into the Yang lineage? Couldn't have come from the Chen's because I read that their jian enters in around the 1920s or 30s. Hmmm, Yang Lu Chan oral history never talks about his jian skills. Chen Fake's daughter has a jian form (old Journal of Chen style has the routine laid out) yet I never read or hear about Chen Fake having a sword form.

Only Doc Fai Wong, in an old article in Wushu/Kung Fu, says the sword comes from a daoist, Song Wei Yi. Well, I know how this Song Wei Yi fits into my lineage but I can never find anybody else who verifies it through the Yang lineage. So I doubt if it comes through Song Wei Yi but I post and never get an responses about where the Yang or Chen sword comes from.

Its just odd, especially regarding Yang stylsts claim of having excellent swordsmanship (which very well might be true) and not knowing how it came into the lineage and what two man exercises and fight forms were practiced.

How strange.

As a beginner student in CMC's school in NYC in 1969-70, I saw him and his senior students practicing this 2-person thing with wooden swords. I never got into that because I was a newbie, but while everything the Professor did was enormously interesting to me, I couldn't quite see how this kind of practice led to anything. But having opinions about all that was not something I was into at the time.

Later on, after being with a few other teachers, some well known and others not, I found my way to Yu Cheng-Hsiang in NYC, with whom I studied for many years until his death in 2010. I knew that Master Yu had studied with many teachers and learned a number of martial arts practices in Shanghai and Taiwan, and one of his teachers was Cheng Man-Ching in Taiwan. I asked him about this 2-man practice CMC was teaching and demonstrating back when I was starting out. Master Yu said that CMC never taught this in Taiwan to his knowledge, and, moreover, he had no idea how this practice could possibly lead to martial skill or power. Especially with the use of wooden swords. (He taught us the form using steel swords.) So it is kind of mysterious. For Master Yu, the sword form was all about developing lethal skill and power.