Applications......

[Viper555]

When we do applications in class it always seems to go on that person leaving their arm or arms out after the attack. Like they punch you block(there arm stays there)you strike,then grab there arm(which is supposed to still be extended)and strike to the body followed by a sweep. That was just one example. The end part of it relies on the arm still being out there but it seems that mose people recoil there arm or it is knocked away by the block.Are you supposed to do these techniques fast enough that they are stuned and leave that arm out there(basically they wont know what hit them if they expect to hit you)or are those applications pointless for a real fight?Maybe i'm asking too many questions considering i've only been in kung fu for almost 2 months and should just trust that it will all come together and make sense one day?Or is it a good idea to question?

What are your guys take on this?

[Water Dragon]

What you're learning is ideas. Examples of things. The punch is used simply because it's easier to grasp the idea that way.

Pay attention to how stuff feels as you're doing it. Try to figure out the idea behind the technique. No, people won't leave their hand in the air, but you can follow it back in. Also, you can drive into them and do the same technique.

Oh yeah, be patient and work your stances. That's where the power is ;)

[fa_jing]

Good question. Some of it is to train a movement that might not ever reach as complete a range of movement as you are practicing, if the opponent jerks their hand back. Some of those moves are to be used on a punch on it's way out. In some respects, your partner is simply feeding you the punches so you can get a feel for the technique.
You have to crawl before you can walk. Putting it all together will come during sparring, or chi sao or however you practice. First you learn the scales, then you learn to improvise. :cool:

[friday]

I think what you are referring to is a common drilling technique used in training. u could think of it as 'programming' your body to use that response against a standard attack. leaving the arm out there is usually so that you can get used to following thru after the block with your strike, takedown, etc other combos u may be taught. your right most fighters, opponents will not leave their arm out there for you to take your time, decide what you are doing then move to a grab and follow thru. so perhaps at this moment is probably not one of the most realistic training practise your experiencing.
however, i think there is a reason for these drills - the theoretical goal is to get you to practise your techniques until they are 'drilled' in you. as you become better at it and more familiar with thte technique things can be done to vary the intensity of drills. such as instead of say whatever standard punch your style uses to launch the attack, it should be varied, speed, power, target areas, etc. This will then improve your techniques under an enviroment that is less predictable, more reliant on your reflexs, improve your ability to respond without thinking, and you become mroe adaptable to the situation. You will then be able to follow thru faster rather than waiting.
your pauses may have reasons aside from the ones i have mentioned. :) u should try asking your instructors too

some sort of sparring might follow after u progress in your style or u might be doing that already.

[HuangKaiVun]

Outstanding questions for a kung fu practitioner of ANY number of years of experience, Viper555.

Most schools I've seen work the drill like you do in your classes. The good ones then introduce the element of resistive opponent training - the part where most "people recoil there arm or it is knocked away by the block".

What you have sensed is the real time alternative to what may happen if your move doesn't work for whatever reason. You have been perceptive enough to sense that you have to have options.

Look to your solo kung fu sets for the real-time options to handling people after they "recoil there arm or it is knocked away by the block".

[Braden]

Also, take this opportunity to learn to take your opponent's balance and structure as soon as you touch him, and keep it taken until he is defeated. With no balance nor structure, your opponent's reactivity is severely limited. Just standing there and executing techniques against someone with an extended arm is quite dubious. Using the arm and your opponent's force to take away his ability to react (by taking his balance and breaking his structure) and then entering with successive strikes, grappling, and takedown is more reasonable. To learn this, you will need a partner who is serious in his aim and martial intent (even if going slower than realistically), as well as a teacher and also preferably training partners who can teach you the subtleties of doing this, and correct you when you inevitably get lazy. This is certainly something I struggle with and value in my practice.

[Mr Punch]

I generally try to practise this kind of drills both ways, but I prefer emphasis on an arm that is returning, so you can develop the angles, the sensitivity and the control more realistically. A lot of beginners seem to do better against the held-out arms which is fair enough, and a good way to develop the basic contact techniques.

If you get a chance, try it out in sparring. There should be some!

[TaoBoy]

In my experience this sort of thing is apparent in the junior levels - when everything is broken down step by step. This is not a bad thing - we all have to start somewhere. As the student progresses practice becomes more free form and the arm will not remain still but will move in accordance to the situation.

Nice query and great replies ppl!

[apoweyn]

yeah, it's an excellent question.

personally, i'm not a huge fan of the logic that you learn it that way to get the feel of the move. or programming your body. if the drill is learned over and over one way, but the conditions that occur in that drill don't occur in sparring (i.e., the guy doesn't leave his arm out), then it's a sizeable leap in logic to say that you can learn it one way and then practice it in sparring.

it seems like there really needs to be an intermediate step, as a couple of people have already suggested. an opportunity to learn the difference between the ideal drill and the sparring reality (and i use the word 'reality' in a broad sense).

take this example: opponent punches and i slip to the outside, cross to the body, and upward elbow to the tricep (charlie horsing the arm). looks good on paper. but in sparring, he's going to drop his elbow back into place as quickly as possible to guard himself. so perhaps a better response would be to slip, cross to the body, then parry that returning arm downward so i can downward elbow to the bicep or skip the limb destruction and come up to the face instead.

regardless of the merits of that particular example, though, the general idea is that without some intermediate experience on how things will go, you experience such a discrepancy in sparring that there's no frame of reference for the drills. so a person reverts back to kicking and punching. 'kickboxing' as some people like to say. which sort of makes sense, as kickboxing is often drilled in precisely the same way it's executed.

if the intricacies of another style are going to successfully translate over to sparring, i think there needs to be a more gradual and deliberate transition.


stuart b.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Is it me or does this remind you of the scene in the Matrix where Keanu wakes up from the pod of slime and sees the real world for what it is?

[Suntzu]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Is it me or does this remind you of the scene in the Matrix where Keanu wakes up from the pod of slime and sees the real world for what it is? yes… truly epiphinal...what??? It’s a word… :p

[CD Lee]

Great question. Options built on good principles. Lets say you drill blocking a stright right with your 'straight' right forward block. Your block flows into his outside gate punch, providing slight deflection, but does not absorb his energy directly. You then immediately practice in the same movement turning over your hand, palm down, and grasping his arm, following over with an uppercut (water/tsuan) to the face.

Reality is that if he pulls the punch back after you have deflected, you have still taken his center of balance slightly, and the hand still turns over, but has no arm to grasp. You still expand, as you strike, yet now, your blocking arm has droped into a lower centerline blocking position which can counter a multitude of other counters he may try. Of course, we hope he ate your uppercut as well.

Your centerline is still protected, and you have pendtrated into his centerline. Just some ideas.

If he throws real hard, he will probably fall down anyways after his punch deflects, as he does not feel this type of block and the resistance like a hard block.

[diego]

Originally posted by apoweyn
yeah, it's an excellent question.

personally, i'm not a huge fan of the logic that you learn it that way to get the feel of the move. or programming your body. if the drill is learned over and over one way, but the conditions that occur in that drill don't occur in sparring (i.e., the guy doesn't leave his arm out), then it's a sizeable leap in logic to say that you can learn it one way and then practice it in sparring.



regardless of the merits of that particular example, though, the general idea is that without some intermediate experience on how things will go, you experience such a discrepancy in sparring that there's no frame of reference for the drills. so a person reverts back to kicking and punching. 'kickboxing' as some people like to say. which sort of makes sense, as kickboxing is often drilled in precisely the same way it's executed.

if the intricacies of another style are going to successfully translate over to sparring, i think there needs to be a more gradual and deliberate transition.


stuart b.


i think what you see as a need for the intermediate level, is because of modern commercialism and many play patti-cake!.
IMU...these drills should be used as sections from your styles forms and/or two man sets.
These are drills to give you a repitative practise of what your styles founders found to be the best example of classical applications wich make up say your styles pillar sets wich give you a oppurtunity to ingrain into your brain your styles seeds!.

they should be built on the same foundational traits as the worth gained from two-man set training ie i think i read hunggars tigercrane set has a accompanied twoman set where one man does the crane and the other the tiger...or the wingchun skills gleamed from chisao's, so in my style for instance these drills are minute sections of my solo sets- they give you understanding like a solo set done with two men would...So as long as your not playing patticake and in kf history they do two man sets then get into competition so all our styles founders didnt see a need for a intermediate level, because its on you to be a fighter or a teacher!.

thats my op:)
Peace

[HuangKaiVun]

To a slight extent it is, ShaolinTiger00.

However, does the slime cloud the teacher's mind or the student's or BOTH?

Or NEITHER?